Just in case non-European people wonder, here's what we get presented with instead of the article:
> Unfortunately, our website is currently unavailable in most European countries. We are engaged on the issue and committed to looking at options that support our full range of digital offerings to the EU market. We continue to identify technical compliance solutions that will provide all readers with our award-winning journalism.
Talk to your representatives and let them know the pain the vague and overreaching GDPR causes you. Perhaps, in time, law makers will undo some of the harm they've caused.
Until then, invest in a VPN that lets you appear to be from elsewhere.
Because the GDPR requirements are vague, overreaching, at odds with best practise and not yet even implemented by the misguided legislature that wrote it.
Musk sounds like an unhinged conspiracy theorist and everything I hear about this company leads me to continue to wish for traditional automakers to take over the great innovations he's pushed forward with mass produced, fully electric and highly automated cars, and bring it up to scale in a safe and reasonable way.
I'd like to see someone selling a fully electric car that isn't highly automated.
I don't want cruise control, lane following, stability control, automatic braking, automatic collision avoidance, anti-lock brakes, etc.
I just want a brake pedal connected directly to the brakes, and a throttle pedal connected directly to an ESC, and a motor connected directly to the wheels.
I don't want a computer controlling everything from behind the scenes, and I certainly don't want it "cloud-connected" or otherwise reporting to the mothership.
Is that too much to ask? It should be much cheaper and easier to make than other electric cars, but nobody is doing it.
Yes, it's too much to ask. I'd like to be able to walk on the streets where I live without having to worry about you hitting me with your car because your phone rang. more automation is clearly the way to go, although I'll grant that tesla hasnt exactly done a great job of it. waymo seems to be on to something though :)
Base model Leaf or Electric Smart? You’ll still get cruise control (you don’t need to use it), ABS (proven to save lives, but you can of course pump the brakes if you wish) etc.
I wouldn't touch the Electric Smart. It has terrible fit and finish, and the range is terrible for a fully electric cars (up to 58 miles), some plug in hybrids get almost as much fully electric range (Chevrolet Volt up to 53 miles).
Granted the Electric Smart is "only" $23K, but you have to look at the overall value (e.g. depreciation, utility, battery aging). I'd prefer to pay $27K for a plug-in Prius Prime (up to 25 mile electric, then gas).
You don't want ABS? How about no airbag either? And doing away with safety belts as well?
The bulk of the cost of producing an electric car comes from battery packs, and cost is also increased because the reduced production numbers cannot achieve higher costs saving from mass production. But all of that is changing every day towards cheaper electric cars.
Pretty much all you mention is actually cheap to include, because it's shared with traditional vehicles, so it's not a major driver in car cost. Actually: if you're going to make a car expensive, then throw in some stuff that people with money (who will actually buy the vehicle) will appreciate.
But you can also get a Smart Fortwo EV, a Bolloré Bluecar, a Mitsubishi i-MIEV… Which are rather basic vehicles and they're electric. The Chevy Bolt is a pretty good middle ground too, if you're in the U.S.
Have you actually looked into the EV market beyond Tesla, with an actual intention of acquiring a vehicle, or are you just thinking out loud?
The reason computer controlled is used is because in order for electric vehicles to be efficient they need a special transmission, nobody has designed a fully mechanical transmission that compares to computer controlled (not least of all because mechanical transmissions are reactive, not proactive, meaning you're always less efficient than you could be, because that very inefficiency is what drives the transmission to shift).
You'd also lose regenerative braking which is a major "win" for electric vehicles.
What frigging computer controlled transmission? Electric vehicles like Tesla Model S have a single-speed fixed transmission, it's pretty much two gears stuck together with no control needed or even possible.
Both of your examples have transmissions, they are however a single gearing ratio (“reduction gear”). EV conversions also frequently use a multi-gear transmission, as did the original Tesla Roadster IIRC.
Figured someone would be along shortly to point this out. Here ya go: "electric cars do not have the multi-ratio selectable transmissions that are in ICE cars." I seriously doubt anyone was confused by my succinct version, though.
Skipping ABS and ESC is a mistake. They're essentially standard, save thousands of lives per year, and ESC is already mandatory in the EU.
Having an efficient electric motor requires a computer controlling it. A standard ESC (VSI topology) is an indirect command on its own and the power depends on transient conditions. The controller doesn't know much about the motor and doesn't account for nonlinearities that cause loss under acceleration. The driving experience is the same as a subway train.
To run a motor at maximum efficiency under all load conditions you need a computer in the loop, running vector/field-oriented/direct-torque control or something similar. It's not an insignificant loss otherwise, particularly with induction motors. It's also a flat-out requirement for some of the best motors- the EV industry is moving towards permanent magnet assisted reluctance motors, which are ~10% efficient without computer control.
I think "narcissist" is the more appropriate term.
He's personally promised 5k model 3s a month (on behalf of everyone working at Tesla, but let's face it I'm sure in his mind he is Tesla), he's personally now living at the factory in order to "ensure it happens". And so if they can't actually deliver, it's on him.
Therefore, start blaming saboteurs, dark forces of established rivals, and so on, because his out-sized ego can't possibly suffer a deflationary embarrassment like not achieving this rashly promised target.
>In February, a misprogrammed robot that handles battery modules repeatedly punctured through the plastic housing (called a clamshell) and into some battery cells, the employee said, adding that instead of scrapping all the modules, some were fixed with adhesive and put back on the manufacturing line. According to internal documents Business Insider reviewed, this foible affected more than 1,000 pieces.
You can kinda make that sound bad, and it might have been bad, but reworking pieces is standard practice in many industries. "Fixed with adhesive" sounds like a hack but there are many wonderful adhesives.
You're right but without more information we shouldn't really take what's printed in the newspaper at face value. Was it really a punctured _cell_ as you and I understand it, or was it a punctured _assembly_? A battery pack has a lot of sheet metal and supporting materials etc.
>punctured through the plastic housing (called a clamshell) and into some battery cells
Emphasis mine. I interpreted that as also popping some of the individual cells. If you replaced the individual cells that were breached you could probably be okay, but at the same time, look at how minor the defect was that was causing Samsung phones to catch fire
Were his actions in line with being a whistleblower? Was what he release evidence of the punctured batteries? I thought he was making direct code changes to the Tesla Manufacturing Operating System.
That's what Tesla claimed. Tesla also said he was leaking multi-gigabytes of information to "sources unknown," and implied it was the oil/gas/competitors. Turns out it was Business Insider and other news media.
> I was dismayed to learn this weekend about a Tesla employee who had conducted quite extensive and damaging sabotage to our operations. This included making direct code changes to the Tesla Manufacturing Operating System under false usernames and exporting large amounts of highly sensitive Tesla data to unknown third parties.
For all we know, these code changes to the Tesla system could have been the code needed to exfiltrate the data and info that he allegedly leaked to media as a whistleblower.
I think I'm just gonna sit back on this story. Tesla has proved itself to be untrustworthy repeatedly but Mr. Tripp seems like he's doing whatever it takes to avoid going to prison. The truth is the first casualty here.
One does not end up in prison from a lawsuit. Tesla cited the criminal codes in question to try to make that happen, but only the government can bring criminal cases, and criminal cases aren’t brought on unproven allegations in a civil lawsuit. If they were serious about putting him in prison, Tesla would have discussed referrals to law enforcement in their communications and we’d likely be hearing from district attorneys by now, given the attention on the case.
Martin Tripp ending up in prison is extraordinarily unlikely, even if Tesla is 100% correct. That you even considered the possibility means that Tesla’s strategy of sprinkling the word “illegal” throughout the complaint to paint a criminal picture worked.
I think it's more likely that Musk wants to know who received the information and will plan accordingly from there. Additionally, it will scare others to keep them from releasing information.
The funny thing is that Musk is literally destroying his public image with this. I mean, who will believe his nice nerd image if he's standing with blood stained face laughing about the crippled dead body of this ex employee of his. Not many better ways of public image suicide out there.
Oh come off it. If he's indeed a saboteur he will garner very little pity from losing a lawsuit. Since when do we support people who allegedly use industrial sabotage against the very companies pushing the boundaries of reducing pollution and greenhouse gas emissions? Your overblown imagery is ridiculous.
Elon is just a bored rich kid and the reducing pollution and greenhouse gas is a facade to distract himself from his ghoulish nature. If you really care about these two things, are you a vegan? Is he a vegan? Or, the far more likelier situation, is Elon attempting to ultimately dissuade workers from unionizing, so that he can continue to exploit them?
How is he a "bored rich kid"? He's bored running two innovative companies? Not to mention he started his entrepeneurship at 12, he sold a video game he created at that age. Since then, I believe he's started 7-8 companies. Hardly what I'd call a "bored" person.
What does veganism have to do with an electric car company? His eating or not of meat has about a .000001% greenhouse gas impact relative to his investments in renewable energy and electrification.
When Musk went public with delusional claims about what Autopilot's HW2 would be capable of, the director of Autopilot at the time, Sterling Anderson, made the principled decision to resign. Sterling later teamed up with Chris Urmson and Drew Bagnell to co-founded their autonomous driving startup, Aurora innovation. When the fledgling startup was only 3 weeks old Musk levied a meritless lawsuit against Aurora, accusing them of using trade secrets stolen from Tesla. The irony of this is that there was nothing worth stealing from autopilot. It was a critical time for Aurora, and the lawsuit was costing them $200k/month, so Aurora settled out of court, paying Tesla's legal fees and agreeing to monthly audits (which Tesla never followed up on, since the lawsuit was bullshit anyhow).
My opinion of Musk really went south after that. I'm not giving him the benefit of the doubt on anything, anymore.
Fortunately Aurora managed to escape that near death experience and has an autonomous driving dream team together, solid funding, and has partnerships with 2 of the top 3 biggest automakers in the world.
Robotaxis stand to challenge the economics of personal vehicle ownership and have the potential to dramatically reduce the impact our transportation system has on the environment, and that's what Musk was out to destroy.
Giving him the benefit of the doubt is one thing; using ridiculously over the top negative language about him and his companies is another thing. The grandparent of your comment is hyperbolic in its contents, and the parent of your comment is right to point that out.
If I was the CEO of Tesla Sterling wouldn't have quit, because my strategy for developing autonomy would have been grounded in reality.
My strategy for mass producing the Model 3 also would have been grounded in reality. And I certainly wouldn't have spent $2.6 billion buying a failing solar installation company with $2.9 billion in debt.
The last few years of Musk's reign over Tesla have been marked by colossal strategic errors made unilaterally in stubborn defiance of conventional wisdom and against the better advice of the experts and specialists he's surrounded by. I don't know why you guys keep defending him, he's incompetent. He has an established track record of paranoia, delusions, cronyism, lies, threats and petty vengeance. For all his claims of Tesla's many enemies, the only legit threat to Tesla's future success is Musk himself. Big boy car companies don't operate this way, and for very good reasons. Very good reasons.
It would be a lot easier to root for Tesla the company if it could be separated from Elon Musk the personality cult.
VW plant, making their top of the line model. solder arm robots have two air input hoses. one wide, high pressure and slow response that is the "power". another nibler but fast response that is the actuator and only moves a small part that open/close the power valve.
the hoses were switched in one chassis line robot. causing the strong power line to simply hold the actuator always open. the small line was going to the " power" input, effectively controlling the soldering arm movement with the low power normally used only for the control valve.
it did solder the chassis. was it up to spec? hardly. did all the chasis went down the line without more than a visual inspection? yep.
Were the two hoses keyed so that they couldn't be switched? If not, that could be sabotage but it could just as easily be human error.
If you are relying on humans catching every mistake you are going to have mistakes happen. You need to make it so that it requires active effort to fuck up if you want avoid issues
from what I recall in the history (heard from the husband of a college friend, he was the person that fixed the thing) the person who did the mixup went to a lot of trouble to fit the hoses in the wrong way.
So, Tesla brought on a white collar defense specialist (some say the best in the country) to file charges against a whistleblower - excuse me - a disgruntled employee?
I am beginning to think Feds are onto it. Tesla isn't fighting this blue collar worker, they expect a fight with the Feds and SEC.
What a mess. Even if Musk decided to go the route of suing this person why did he publicize it himself? What is to be gained for him in the court of public opinion?
I really looking forward to the actual trial and evidence provided by Tesla. This can actually make or break Musk and maybe Tesla's image. They have insinuated in the mail that this might be an act of sabotage by oil/gas companies and/or short sellers. If Musk/Tesla can't prove those allegations they will be labelled as someone who cries wolf at the first sign of trouble.
67 comments
[ 0.22 ms ] story [ 129 ms ] threadedit:// Seems to be available in Google Cache at ( http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:6Zh46Sr... ).
As suspected, more of a press release than anything else. Just because the name "Tesla" is in it this gets upvoted?
edit2:// This is the original article which has much more detail and is overall better:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2018/06/20...
> Unfortunately, our website is currently unavailable in most European countries. We are engaged on the issue and committed to looking at options that support our full range of digital offerings to the EU market. We continue to identify technical compliance solutions that will provide all readers with our award-winning journalism.
Until then, invest in a VPN that lets you appear to be from elsewhere.
I don't want cruise control, lane following, stability control, automatic braking, automatic collision avoidance, anti-lock brakes, etc.
I just want a brake pedal connected directly to the brakes, and a throttle pedal connected directly to an ESC, and a motor connected directly to the wheels.
I don't want a computer controlling everything from behind the scenes, and I certainly don't want it "cloud-connected" or otherwise reporting to the mothership.
Is that too much to ask? It should be much cheaper and easier to make than other electric cars, but nobody is doing it.
Granted the Electric Smart is "only" $23K, but you have to look at the overall value (e.g. depreciation, utility, battery aging). I'd prefer to pay $27K for a plug-in Prius Prime (up to 25 mile electric, then gas).
The bulk of the cost of producing an electric car comes from battery packs, and cost is also increased because the reduced production numbers cannot achieve higher costs saving from mass production. But all of that is changing every day towards cheaper electric cars.
Pretty much all you mention is actually cheap to include, because it's shared with traditional vehicles, so it's not a major driver in car cost. Actually: if you're going to make a car expensive, then throw in some stuff that people with money (who will actually buy the vehicle) will appreciate.
But you can also get a Smart Fortwo EV, a Bolloré Bluecar, a Mitsubishi i-MIEV… Which are rather basic vehicles and they're electric. The Chevy Bolt is a pretty good middle ground too, if you're in the U.S.
Have you actually looked into the EV market beyond Tesla, with an actual intention of acquiring a vehicle, or are you just thinking out loud?
The reason computer controlled is used is because in order for electric vehicles to be efficient they need a special transmission, nobody has designed a fully mechanical transmission that compares to computer controlled (not least of all because mechanical transmissions are reactive, not proactive, meaning you're always less efficient than you could be, because that very inefficiency is what drives the transmission to shift).
You'd also lose regenerative braking which is a major "win" for electric vehicles.
Electric cars don't have transmissions. At least the Leaf and Teslas don't, that I can say with certainty.
Having an efficient electric motor requires a computer controlling it. A standard ESC (VSI topology) is an indirect command on its own and the power depends on transient conditions. The controller doesn't know much about the motor and doesn't account for nonlinearities that cause loss under acceleration. The driving experience is the same as a subway train.
To run a motor at maximum efficiency under all load conditions you need a computer in the loop, running vector/field-oriented/direct-torque control or something similar. It's not an insignificant loss otherwise, particularly with induction motors. It's also a flat-out requirement for some of the best motors- the EV industry is moving towards permanent magnet assisted reluctance motors, which are ~10% efficient without computer control.
He's personally promised 5k model 3s a month (on behalf of everyone working at Tesla, but let's face it I'm sure in his mind he is Tesla), he's personally now living at the factory in order to "ensure it happens". And so if they can't actually deliver, it's on him.
Therefore, start blaming saboteurs, dark forces of established rivals, and so on, because his out-sized ego can't possibly suffer a deflationary embarrassment like not achieving this rashly promised target.
http://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-model-3-scrap-waste-hig...
>plastic housing (called a clamshell)
is an external insulating case for the whole battery pack, there is metal case inside it, and another one on top of it.
Emphasis mine. I interpreted that as also popping some of the individual cells. If you replaced the individual cells that were breached you could probably be okay, but at the same time, look at how minor the defect was that was causing Samsung phones to catch fire
There’s often a handful of units per line that end up being bad, even great manufacturers deal with less than 100% yield from their processses.
And that they knew that when making the "sources unknown" claim.
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/06/18/elon-musk-email-employee-con...
> I was dismayed to learn this weekend about a Tesla employee who had conducted quite extensive and damaging sabotage to our operations. This included making direct code changes to the Tesla Manufacturing Operating System under false usernames and exporting large amounts of highly sensitive Tesla data to unknown third parties.
For all we know, these code changes to the Tesla system could have been the code needed to exfiltrate the data and info that he allegedly leaked to media as a whistleblower.
Martin Tripp ending up in prison is extraordinarily unlikely, even if Tesla is 100% correct. That you even considered the possibility means that Tesla’s strategy of sprinkling the word “illegal” throughout the complaint to paint a criminal picture worked.
he could use a vacation or something.
https://www.law.com/therecorder/2018/06/20/tesla-brings-on-f...
What does veganism have to do with an electric car company? His eating or not of meat has about a .000001% greenhouse gas impact relative to his investments in renewable energy and electrification.
My opinion of Musk really went south after that. I'm not giving him the benefit of the doubt on anything, anymore.
Fortunately Aurora managed to escape that near death experience and has an autonomous driving dream team together, solid funding, and has partnerships with 2 of the top 3 biggest automakers in the world.
Robotaxis stand to challenge the economics of personal vehicle ownership and have the potential to dramatically reduce the impact our transportation system has on the environment, and that's what Musk was out to destroy.
My strategy for mass producing the Model 3 also would have been grounded in reality. And I certainly wouldn't have spent $2.6 billion buying a failing solar installation company with $2.9 billion in debt.
The last few years of Musk's reign over Tesla have been marked by colossal strategic errors made unilaterally in stubborn defiance of conventional wisdom and against the better advice of the experts and specialists he's surrounded by. I don't know why you guys keep defending him, he's incompetent. He has an established track record of paranoia, delusions, cronyism, lies, threats and petty vengeance. For all his claims of Tesla's many enemies, the only legit threat to Tesla's future success is Musk himself. Big boy car companies don't operate this way, and for very good reasons. Very good reasons.
It would be a lot easier to root for Tesla the company if it could be separated from Elon Musk the personality cult.
VW plant, making their top of the line model. solder arm robots have two air input hoses. one wide, high pressure and slow response that is the "power". another nibler but fast response that is the actuator and only moves a small part that open/close the power valve.
the hoses were switched in one chassis line robot. causing the strong power line to simply hold the actuator always open. the small line was going to the " power" input, effectively controlling the soldering arm movement with the low power normally used only for the control valve.
it did solder the chassis. was it up to spec? hardly. did all the chasis went down the line without more than a visual inspection? yep.
If you are relying on humans catching every mistake you are going to have mistakes happen. You need to make it so that it requires active effort to fuck up if you want avoid issues
I am beginning to think Feds are onto it. Tesla isn't fighting this blue collar worker, they expect a fight with the Feds and SEC.