It is mostly males that become transgender women – female transitions to male are extremely rare...
From that point on, his work belongs to the woman’s family, and it’s the woman who decides whether her husband can share his fish, coconuts or plantains with his own parents or siblings.
Taken together, these two observations make a lot of sense. In a closed society where women have consolidated power like that, why would anyone become a man?
This is patently false[0]. (This is the largest population I could find)
The reason it looks this way is because Western culture has systemic oppositional sexism and views female gender roles as performative and artificial (the way our culture expects women to always be wearing makeup being one of many examples), subsequently trans women are far more salacious of a topic to the general public, whereas trans men are erased because our culture sees them as trying to pull themselves up by their bootstraps from a position of inferiority to a position of power. (That must be it right?!?)
If you’re interested I’d highly recommend the book “Whipping Girl” by Julia Serano.
Page 44[0] documents a survey of trans people in the USA in 2015, with 31% identifying as trans men and 32% identifying as trans women (and 31% identifying as non-binary). (this is the most comprehensive document I've found on the topic thus far)
That shows "referrals" of teenagers. Doesn't really mean anything about what actually happens. All teenagers are weird for a little while. It's great if you stay weird, but most don't.
I agree, gender could be a red herring here. Power structures could better explain the social behavior. However, I would like to understand the differences, if any, between patriarchal and matriarchal societies. Anyone has a suggestions for resources in this regard?
There doesn't seem to be such a thing as a matriarchal society -- where women hold the major political offices. The closest thing is a matrilocal society.
The "Standard Cross Cultural Sample" is a large collection of data about ~180 societies across the world. The list of variables covered, broken down into categories, includes several related gender and division of labor:
After describing some of the early research and theorizing about matriarchies, the Encyclpaedia Britannica states: "The consensus among modern anthropologists and sociologists is that while many cultures bestow power preferentially on one sex or the other, matriarchal societies in this original, evolutionary sense have never existed."
The article explicitly states that the society is not a matriarchy; all the chiefs etc are men.
Japan is generally viewed as a heavily patriarchal society, yet has similar customs. For example, a typical couple's bank account is controlled by the wife.
What power do the chiefs actually have? The article says that all domestic decisions are made by women, and there is no hierarchy. Sound like "politicians and chiefs" are western interpretation of what could possible simply be a figure head or a diplomatic position to do trading with other islands.
It’s perfectly possible for women to have a lot of control over society, especially over domestic society, without that society being matriarchal. For instance, Brehon Law gave women rights which were unusual versus other western contemporaries, especially in terms of property, but no-one considers early Medieval Ireland to be matriarchal.
The power chieftains hold in these positions is usually:
* Organising and directing the hunters, and dividing their kill.
* The power to declare war, and to divide the spoils.
* Powers relating to treaties and trade with other tribes.
* Adjudicating disputes between families.
The chief and his retinue are often the only recognisable political offices in such societies, in the sense that:
* There is an open and explicit process for selecting the office holder.
* Everyone openly acknowledges their authority.
* They make open proclamations with regards to their rules and determinations.
* They are held accountable for their decisions and their outcomes.
They constitute the public, universal aspect of power — formal authority. This is not the only kind of power possible.
As an earlier poster notes, in most East Asian societies from time immemorial women held the purse strings. Many societies are organised in such a way, that women have great power in aggregate but men hold the official, political positions. Susan Carol Rogers’ “The Myth of Male Dominance: Female Forms of Power” explores this dynamic in French peasant society. Patriarchy and women being in practice more powerful can co-exist.
There are virtually (actually?) no matriarchies in history or on the earth today, in the sense that women hold the majority of positions where power is open, accountable and governed by law (or custom). In most historical societies, women held none of these positions. That doesn’t mean they just rolled over and played dead while men ran riot with the power.
Perhaps as modernity got underway, the official power of men became much more significant. It wasn’t always the case that getting a new road in your town required approval at the state/province level. Informal, local power receded from view and it was only reasonable that women sought the formal, political kind in modernising societies. This change also makes it hard for us to recognise the importance of informal power in simpler societies.
Thank you. The distinction between formal authority and informal power is an interesting model, but I would disagree that patriarchy is then a correct term to use since patriarchy does not distinguish between formal and informal in any definition that I have read. Matriarchy and patriarchy is usually defined by whom holds the primary power in a society. One can't say that women are hold more power in society and then say its a patriarchy, unless we define patriarchy in different terms to that commonly used. It also looks a bit like switching the definition based on needs, like how a monarch with a queen as supreme formal authority is still not a matriarchy because the overall informal power is held by men.
I do have a major question however about that list of powers. If a dispute between two families is about marriage, do the male chieftains hold authority to decide on the matter? My guess would be that they do not as that would cross the boundary of power. It sounds more like this society have male gender role that give them official domain over war and trade with other tribes, and a female gender role that give them domain over all other areas. This would be very similar to many other tribal societies, with the rare exception that allow individuals to choose which one of the two roles a person want. Many people object to this classification since it would mean that most historical societies are neither matriarchy or patriarchy but rather structured around gender roles where power is held supreme with in each gender group.
...like how a monarch with a queen as supreme formal authority is still not a matriarchy because the overall informal power is held by men.
In that situation most of the formal power was held by men. The members of parliament, the generals, the treasurer, the postmaster, the judges -- all were men.
If a dispute between two families is about marriage, do the male chieftains hold authority to decide on the matter? My guess would be that they do not as that would cross the boundary of power.
It is possible chiefs hold power in that area because marriage is a matter of official, formal record. Having power doesn't mean they don't have to take into account the informal power around them. This is the difference relative to modern societies -- the balance of power between formal and informal power.
It sounds more like this society have male gender role that give them official domain over war and trade with other tribes, and a female gender role that give them domain over all other areas. This would be very similar to many other tribal societies, with the rare exception that allow individuals to choose which one of the two roles a person want. Many people object to this classification since it would mean that most historical societies are neither matriarchy or patriarchy but rather structured around gender roles where power is held supreme with in each gender group.
When a society is labeled patriarchal it is not, in practice, a statement about all the power in that society. It's hard for anthropologists and historians to gather that information. It's a statement about formal, political power -- about offices which people can be procedurally added to and removed from, in an open and accountable way. There are some societies were women had substantial institutions like this. In modernized liberal democracies -- for maybe the first time in history? -- women participate in men's institutions to a substantial degree, and that is pretty much their only gateway into public life. Matriarchy is the idea -- perhaps comical on the face of it, because anything so symmetrical in its construction should be suspicious, but it was not so back when people were asking this question -- that women would be the presidents and generals and judges and men would basically chill at home and smoke the fish and do the knitting and not (overtly) control public policy. No one has ever found a society like this.
> In that situation most of the formal power was held by men. The members of parliament, the generals, the treasurer, the postmaster, the judges -- all were men.
The time when the queens power were supreme the parliament did not hold power over the monarch, nor did the generals, treasurer, postmasters or judges. Supreme power is supreme. The UK parliament was created on the idea to limit the power of the monarch, same with the treasurer which reported only to the parliament, but those rules took ages to be put in place.
> Having power doesn't mean they don't have to take into account the informal power around them.
There is a very strong issue of definition here. A supreme judge have to take into account the facts of a case but they still hold exclusive power to make a judgement. That is the question here: do the chiefs hold the exclusive power to decide the case or are they not allowed to do so when it cross over to the domain that women decide on.
> When a society is labeled patriarchal it is not, in practice, a statement about all the power in that society.
That is why the term patriarchal and matriarchy is about which group holds primary power. Not all, but most power.
> that women would be the presidents and generals and judges and men would basically chill at home and smoke the fish and do the knitting and not (overtly) control public policy. No one has ever found a society like this.
This is just a different way of defining formal power to be more meaningful than informal. We could role reversal a society where women held power in all trading, war and negotiation with foreign tribes and men held power over all other domains. Both men and women would do cooking, fishing and knitting, but men would control domestic policy while women controlled diplomatic policy.
Is that a matriarchy? In my view no. The primary power in society is not about who control the generals and who is allowed to go and fight wars with neighboring tribes. There is more to tribal society than war.
Patriarchy and matriarchy are more limited concepts. They are statements about formal positions, and so-called political power.
This means that patriarchy can co-exist with women having considerable or even majority power, when all bases of power are considered.
Sometimes people use the terms in an informal way -- like when talking about the "matriarch" of a Greek family. It's worth asking if those same people would say Greece was matriarchal -- the answer is usually no.
Very interesting read. The thing stood out to me most is that it says the islands didn't start getting discriminatory until they started encountering western culture and having it rub off on them. They still aren't overly discriminatory, but it is a minor side effect of contact with external influences.
It is fascinating to know that there are islands where gender identify doesn't matter. If you want to be a woman, just act like one and you will be accepted. I figured all places in the world shunned that type of behavior as a community, but these people had no outside influence on their behavior. To see that type of acceptance come from a natural perspective is eye opening.
It was hard to tell how men are treated. It keeps going back and forth, one sentence says the men are treated fairly, the next says they are bound by the woman's decisions. Then that the men have no problems, but still have basically all their decisions made by woman.
It is worth noting that the article mentions the hardships these people face when going off the island to the mainland places. Sure their gender acceptance at home is fine, but they face the typical discrimination you'd expect from any established society.
Exactly what I said? The article states that those who act like woman from a young age, simply become them. No surgery, nothing physical changes, they simply are treated as woman from that point on.
I think the issue there is that in order for "act like a woman" to be meaningful, you have to have a somewhat fixed notion of what womanly behaviour is, which is hard to disentangle from sexual stereotyping. At least if you apply it to my culture, I don't feel qualified to comment on what happens in Guna Yala.
I think you're trying to get at gender roles/norms. Since "woman" is rather clearly defined already. Gender roles are a fluid and ever changing concept, rooted in zeitgeist.
> I figured all places in the world shunned that type of behavior as a community, but these people had no outside influence on their behavior
Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying here, but there are countless societies through the ages and today with the concept of a third gender, or where gender isn't intrinsically linked to sex.
It's quite common. When I first struggled with my gender indentity, I looked at the world's history. Our Western societies puts such shame on individuals not on the edges of the gender spectrum that it's easy to think you are outright crazy. I found many example of it thoughout history. I never made a complete list but here are some that comes to mind:
- Samoan fa'afafine,
- Native American Two-Spirits (umbralla term, each tribe has their own word),
- South Asian Hijras,
Quite a few societies have some concept of a third gender, and sometimes more than that. Most Western examples are 19th century or later (at least post-classical; the ancient Greeks had a couple), but there are multiple far older examples in other parts of the world.
This article reminded me of the Buginese who have 5 different genders: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bugis#Lifestyle.
Unfortunately they're not going into more detail, I'd like to know if they're as equally accepted as with the people from the article.
Thailand also has a third gender for MTF and Iran has support for MTF operations. What's interesting to me is that FTM doesn't seem to get the same support. Why is that?
Is it because patriarchy doesn't want to allow more into the club but is fine with kicking people out? Is there a biological force which makes MTF more common?
Not trying to offend anyone, I am genuinely curious.
However, even in the modern west, the existence of FTM transgender people people tends to be largely ignored by society. I think it is a concept that people are even less willing to accept than the idea of MTF transgender people, though I could only speculate why.
>> Throughout ages, across continents and cultures, gender fluidity and the concept of a third gender consistently reappears: the hijras in India; the Meti in Nepal; the Fa’afafine in Samoa; the ‘two-spirit’ people in North America. They are not the exception, we are.
Really? This is four cultures. Are there not many, many more where gender is generally seen as fixed and binary?
This article just sounds like celebration of a power imbalance. To me, reading articles like this push me further from viewing social movements as noble search for equality but instead a gendered focus on gaining power compared to men.
Isn't trying to gain power compared to men the same thing as trying for equality if there is a an existing power imbalance or am I confused about the semantics here?
I think what they mean by "power compared to men" is "the power men have compared to others", i.e., they don't want equality, they want to be the ones in control.
43 comments
[ 274 ms ] story [ 1752 ms ] threadhttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fa'afafine
From that point on, his work belongs to the woman’s family, and it’s the woman who decides whether her husband can share his fish, coconuts or plantains with his own parents or siblings.
Taken together, these two observations make a lot of sense. In a closed society where women have consolidated power like that, why would anyone become a man?
The reason it looks this way is because Western culture has systemic oppositional sexism and views female gender roles as performative and artificial (the way our culture expects women to always be wearing makeup being one of many examples), subsequently trans women are far more salacious of a topic to the general public, whereas trans men are erased because our culture sees them as trying to pull themselves up by their bootstraps from a position of inferiority to a position of power. (That must be it right?!?)
If you’re interested I’d highly recommend the book “Whipping Girl” by Julia Serano.
[0]http://gids.nhs.uk/number-referrals
[0] https://transequality.org/sites/default/files/docs/usts/USTS...
http://eclectic.ss.uci.edu/~drwhite/courses/stdsvars.html
There is a website for browsing the data. Looks a little challenging to use:
http://socscicompute.ss.uci.edu/
After describing some of the early research and theorizing about matriarchies, the Encyclpaedia Britannica states: "The consensus among modern anthropologists and sociologists is that while many cultures bestow power preferentially on one sex or the other, matriarchal societies in this original, evolutionary sense have never existed."
Japan is generally viewed as a heavily patriarchal society, yet has similar customs. For example, a typical couple's bank account is controlled by the wife.
It doesn't seem quite that unreasonable question to ask.
* Organising and directing the hunters, and dividing their kill.
* The power to declare war, and to divide the spoils.
* Powers relating to treaties and trade with other tribes.
* Adjudicating disputes between families.
The chief and his retinue are often the only recognisable political offices in such societies, in the sense that:
* There is an open and explicit process for selecting the office holder.
* Everyone openly acknowledges their authority.
* They make open proclamations with regards to their rules and determinations.
* They are held accountable for their decisions and their outcomes.
They constitute the public, universal aspect of power — formal authority. This is not the only kind of power possible.
As an earlier poster notes, in most East Asian societies from time immemorial women held the purse strings. Many societies are organised in such a way, that women have great power in aggregate but men hold the official, political positions. Susan Carol Rogers’ “The Myth of Male Dominance: Female Forms of Power” explores this dynamic in French peasant society. Patriarchy and women being in practice more powerful can co-exist.
There are virtually (actually?) no matriarchies in history or on the earth today, in the sense that women hold the majority of positions where power is open, accountable and governed by law (or custom). In most historical societies, women held none of these positions. That doesn’t mean they just rolled over and played dead while men ran riot with the power.
Perhaps as modernity got underway, the official power of men became much more significant. It wasn’t always the case that getting a new road in your town required approval at the state/province level. Informal, local power receded from view and it was only reasonable that women sought the formal, political kind in modernising societies. This change also makes it hard for us to recognise the importance of informal power in simpler societies.
I do have a major question however about that list of powers. If a dispute between two families is about marriage, do the male chieftains hold authority to decide on the matter? My guess would be that they do not as that would cross the boundary of power. It sounds more like this society have male gender role that give them official domain over war and trade with other tribes, and a female gender role that give them domain over all other areas. This would be very similar to many other tribal societies, with the rare exception that allow individuals to choose which one of the two roles a person want. Many people object to this classification since it would mean that most historical societies are neither matriarchy or patriarchy but rather structured around gender roles where power is held supreme with in each gender group.
In that situation most of the formal power was held by men. The members of parliament, the generals, the treasurer, the postmaster, the judges -- all were men.
If a dispute between two families is about marriage, do the male chieftains hold authority to decide on the matter? My guess would be that they do not as that would cross the boundary of power.
It is possible chiefs hold power in that area because marriage is a matter of official, formal record. Having power doesn't mean they don't have to take into account the informal power around them. This is the difference relative to modern societies -- the balance of power between formal and informal power.
It sounds more like this society have male gender role that give them official domain over war and trade with other tribes, and a female gender role that give them domain over all other areas. This would be very similar to many other tribal societies, with the rare exception that allow individuals to choose which one of the two roles a person want. Many people object to this classification since it would mean that most historical societies are neither matriarchy or patriarchy but rather structured around gender roles where power is held supreme with in each gender group.
When a society is labeled patriarchal it is not, in practice, a statement about all the power in that society. It's hard for anthropologists and historians to gather that information. It's a statement about formal, political power -- about offices which people can be procedurally added to and removed from, in an open and accountable way. There are some societies were women had substantial institutions like this. In modernized liberal democracies -- for maybe the first time in history? -- women participate in men's institutions to a substantial degree, and that is pretty much their only gateway into public life. Matriarchy is the idea -- perhaps comical on the face of it, because anything so symmetrical in its construction should be suspicious, but it was not so back when people were asking this question -- that women would be the presidents and generals and judges and men would basically chill at home and smoke the fish and do the knitting and not (overtly) control public policy. No one has ever found a society like this.
The time when the queens power were supreme the parliament did not hold power over the monarch, nor did the generals, treasurer, postmasters or judges. Supreme power is supreme. The UK parliament was created on the idea to limit the power of the monarch, same with the treasurer which reported only to the parliament, but those rules took ages to be put in place.
> Having power doesn't mean they don't have to take into account the informal power around them.
There is a very strong issue of definition here. A supreme judge have to take into account the facts of a case but they still hold exclusive power to make a judgement. That is the question here: do the chiefs hold the exclusive power to decide the case or are they not allowed to do so when it cross over to the domain that women decide on.
> When a society is labeled patriarchal it is not, in practice, a statement about all the power in that society.
That is why the term patriarchal and matriarchy is about which group holds primary power. Not all, but most power.
> that women would be the presidents and generals and judges and men would basically chill at home and smoke the fish and do the knitting and not (overtly) control public policy. No one has ever found a society like this.
This is just a different way of defining formal power to be more meaningful than informal. We could role reversal a society where women held power in all trading, war and negotiation with foreign tribes and men held power over all other domains. Both men and women would do cooking, fishing and knitting, but men would control domestic policy while women controlled diplomatic policy.
Is that a matriarchy? In my view no. The primary power in society is not about who control the generals and who is allowed to go and fight wars with neighboring tribes. There is more to tribal society than war.
This means that patriarchy can co-exist with women having considerable or even majority power, when all bases of power are considered.
Sometimes people use the terms in an informal way -- like when talking about the "matriarch" of a Greek family. It's worth asking if those same people would say Greece was matriarchal -- the answer is usually no.
It is fascinating to know that there are islands where gender identify doesn't matter. If you want to be a woman, just act like one and you will be accepted. I figured all places in the world shunned that type of behavior as a community, but these people had no outside influence on their behavior. To see that type of acceptance come from a natural perspective is eye opening.
It was hard to tell how men are treated. It keeps going back and forth, one sentence says the men are treated fairly, the next says they are bound by the woman's decisions. Then that the men have no problems, but still have basically all their decisions made by woman.
It is worth noting that the article mentions the hardships these people face when going off the island to the mainland places. Sure their gender acceptance at home is fine, but they face the typical discrimination you'd expect from any established society.
And what does this mean?
Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying here, but there are countless societies through the ages and today with the concept of a third gender, or where gender isn't intrinsically linked to sex.
But you still aren't a woman, you are omeggid.
- Samoan fa'afafine,
- Native American Two-Spirits (umbralla term, each tribe has their own word), - South Asian Hijras,
- Ethiopian Ashtime,
- Hawaiin Māhū,
- Philippines's multiple gender identities (baklâ, bayot,etc.),
Etc.
Is it because patriarchy doesn't want to allow more into the club but is fine with kicking people out? Is there a biological force which makes MTF more common?
Not trying to offend anyone, I am genuinely curious.
However, even in the modern west, the existence of FTM transgender people people tends to be largely ignored by society. I think it is a concept that people are even less willing to accept than the idea of MTF transgender people, though I could only speculate why.
They have no respect for homosexual rights, and so people are pushed to change genders.
Really? This is four cultures. Are there not many, many more where gender is generally seen as fixed and binary?
Equality is empowering but celebrating control over the other gender makes it about power over another.