I do think that you will need links to some technologies you've built. If you don't have anything built yet, why not get started? Since you're out of work why not start with something simple (a "facemash" clone for pokemon?? wait, don't do that, I want that one now. oh who am I kidding? the market can bear a dozen facemash for pokemon clones)
I went to see the social network the other day and there was one line that knocked my socks off (wish I'd known it when I was fresh out of uni) "We encourage students to create their jobs rather than find them"
Instead of looking for work, why not get started on making your own work?
Will code for food.
:)
Good luck! Let us know when you've found something!
"We encourage students to create their jobs rather than find them" - i agree it was one of the better lines in the movie, but i am not sure i believe harvard actually possesses that mentality. stanford? probably. hardvard? probably not.
i've heard a number of times (and believe) that the most successful entrepreneurs are often the B-student rebels that manage to hire the A+ students for their startups.
At the end of the day, I think it's mostly irrelevant where they say it (Havard, Stanford, Berkley, Carleton, all, none, who cares?) - it's the sentiment that really matters.
This is how most talented people get jobs. I have a resume on a two job portals, and (not to toot my own horn) I get job offers several times a week. I'm already happily employed, but the point is that I never look for work yet it still comes to me.
I love it.
Sincerely, i can say this, that if i was in a position to, i'd definitely hire you.
But i have something of interest to impart to you.
Im from a background of arranged marriages (yes, im ok with it) and my parents are currently looking for a suitor for me.
I've been rejected by ALOT of girls, and have been through almost the exact same thought process as you.
I'd gotten to the point of grovelling, being content with anything that comes my way, but now i'm realising and very quickly that i actually have a lot to offer, and the girls should be begging to come to me.
So henceforth begins my reverse marriage proposal! ;-)
> So henceforth begins my reverse marriage proposal!
Careful, that might be confused with "arrogant douchebag". What you look for in a for-profit company aimed at maximizing profits is not necessarily what you'd want in a husband. For example, you probably wouldn't want to "work with a team" to solve intimate marital issues.
Which raises the larger point about this article, and hundreds of other charmingly idiosyncratic applications -- they certainly are refreshing, but may not always be received in the best way. Sometimes professionalism goes a long way. This isn't your college application essay.
I didn't see anything I'd call unprofessional in his application.
People with jobs often feel overly entitled to define what constitutes professionalism. (NB, I'm not addressing you personally, just the amorphous "they".)
To me, the larger point of the article is how difficult in can be to break through the arbitrary and diverse standards each HR department and hiring manager has.
Sometimes it just feels better to state what you want and hope they find you.
Which raises the larger point about this article, and hundreds of other charmingly idiosyncratic applications -- they certainly are refreshing, but may not always be received in the best way.
If I were him, I wouldn't give a rat's ass about who might not receive it in the best way.
But that's just me. I've been privileged enough to be sought after by my past and potential employers.
Thank you. I appreciate the encouragement.
There are a number of posts that i want to write regards my culture. I was never sure when was the right time ;-)
This is a nice idea, with one big BUT. Not to rain on the parade here, but you've been unemployed for two years and all you have to show for it is a funny reverse job application. Sadly, it doesn't show what your actual skills are, nor whether you have ever produced something of value for anyone. These are more or less prerequisites to getting a good job.
Go look at http://jacquesmattheij.com/My+list+of+ideas+for+when+you+are... and pick one. Or come up with another idea. Then build a website that does it. Find some freelance work on the back of that. Something small that can show off your talents. Rinse, repeat. Either you'll start applying to jobs again and get accepted on the basis of your demonstratable skill, someone will give you a job (which you'll have earned,) or you'll be one of the cool consultant-entrpreneur-successes.
As you know, rejection sucks, but the worst thing is the social proof it is against you. I'm thinking to myself "there must be something wrong with this guy, so many people didn't hire him, there must be a reason." Do some things that prove you are a success and people will hire you. You've been unlucky, but sometimes you gotta make your own luck. This is an admirable attempt, but if you want me to believe you are the kind of creative achiever you say you are, you need to do more than say it. You can do it!
EDIT: Damm. As halaric points out, his personal web page does list these things. It still needs at least a direct link and preferably a mention on the application page though.
wait, it's the employer's job to dig for your resume? this "reverse job app" gives me no substantive data on what this guy's skills are, so why would I even bother? if you want a job, it's your responsibility to make the case for why you're worth hiring.
Hey, I see a job ad, I have to look for their website and try to figure out what they do, and where they fit in the industry. Why should a reverse job ad be any different?
a good job ad will tell you at least some basics about what the company does and what the job entails. this reverse job app doesn't tell me anything about what I can expect from this candidate, except for some empty job-seeker cliches about how he's creative and a quick learner. no links to a portfolio, no examples of previous work, no recommendations from peers.
You are right. You don't have to. You're (or is it your) probably don't have the time for it, cause u have a pile of resumes that u need to go through and filter out the keywords... If I came across this link and I was hiring, I would be interested to know more.. Why? Cause I am intrigued.. Cause the person stood out for me... The approach is creative, unique and definitely ballsy... Should all of that suggest that the candidate is worth the position.. of course not.. but he proved that he can be unique and exercise creativity, I would want to know more, while leaving the task of filtering out the keywords from the resumes to recruiters who don't know sh... (shtuff is a word) :)
Likewise most job ads provide very little actual information about the job, use vague descriptions for everything, do not explain what company or project the job is really for, cannot explain what actual skills are required to do the job, do not give any idea what pay-scale is being offered.
Bingo. If job positions advertised themselves with clear examples of projects I'd be expected to tackle within my first year on the job, I'd be a lot more likely to consider switching.
After having you point out that fact, I had to do a search on the document source for "<a" to find the 6 point font footer at the bottom! I hardly expect anyone to do this much work looking through my job applications...
I dunno. I was out of work for a year once and then settled for a few years of staggering underemployment. I even came to believe that I would never again be hired as a developer, that no company would look at me, that my resume was too weak and I'd never get past human resources. It got really depressing.
Then I met a guy who knew a guy, and they got me back on track. Now I have a very nice job with a very nice company where I do amazing work (if I may say so). So anyhow, there are eight million stories in the naked city. This guy's story sounds like my story. I wish him luck.
I applaud this guy. Instead of berating his shortcomings in execution I think smart people should ponder the bigger question he posits, ie, why are smart people not capable of bypassing the eternal "ooh! ooh! pick me!" game of the HR folks? Seriously, HR reminds me of Morgana's forrest of the damned in Excalibur, ie, "No Knights shall pass this morass".
Here are 2 true stories from personal experience:
(1) Me and girlfriend are out to dinner with her friend when her friend's friend/associate/something phoned to say she was nearby and wanted to join us. She worked in HR. Fast forward past the wine and stuff to the end of the night where she was recounting a story about how she and her colleagues spent most of the time "printing out resumes for review" only to wind up throwing them all in the shredder because of the dauntingly massive volume and lack of coherent approach to dealing with it, deleting the responses to the original job postings and going to their supervisors and telling them they need they needed to "post more ads" and "call more recruiters" because they "couldn't find qualified candidates".
(2) Another HR person (I presumed) I overheard in a barnes and noble talking on the phone to somebody about how she found someone to "channel the job posting responses to a database" ... several moments later (I could only guess the other side of the cell conversation): "I don't know, I guess somebody somewhere looks at the resumes, whatever, they don't pay me enough to give a sh@#".
(3) Applicant side: A pretty damn talented guy I knew couldn't find work for about a year and a quarter. Social proof effects started kicking in until I realized that for all practical reasons he SHOULD be getting a job quite easily. A mutual friend suggested he try to "hire himself" from a HR standpoint to see if things looked different from the other side. After a very long attempt to figure out why, he hired a detective/consultant who found out the type of companies that he applied to in his area started using a particular firm for background checks, and that firm in turn used a service that searched for "probability" quotients that job applicant names were on various lists.
Not ACTUAL matches, mind you, but relative "probabilities" based on letters and letter combinations in name that his name would be on, say, federal databases of felons.
In his case, the match returned with a "moderate to high probability" that, in essence, names like his MAY be on federal lists of felons and people who had to register as sex offenders. And people who had restraining orders against them.
None of this applied to him, but his name "configuration" had, based on I don't know what criteria, a "probability" of being on such list.
Along with, I don't know, thousands of other people who had short, basic anglo-saxon names.
And, of course, there's that infamous YouTube video from 2007 with that law firm advising HR managers at some hotel conference about how to "setup a fax machine near a shredder" to comply with federal hiring laws and then complain to government that they couldn't find qualified candidates in order to score government handouts, tax-breaks and make the case for more temporary visas to take advantage of foreigners who don't realize just how expensive it can be to work in the U.S. and think $30-40k is like hitting the jackpot based on relative buying power back home.
I'd add another BUT... The real reverse application should show how you will bring value to the company. Why should they hire you, how will you make the company better, what do you bring to the table?
You have to understand that it has to pay to hire you, you are just not entitled to a job because you have a degree.
The form validation error messages are interesting, too :-)
In case Andrew Horner reads this: yes, I'm one of the people (assuming there are more such curious folks) that filled in junk info to take a peek at those error messages. Sorry!
i would personally recommend a hybrid approach to the traditional job board postings and the 'reverse job application.'
i believe the best opportunities come from the ones you seek out. don't wait for job postings. many of the best communities recruit from within. get in their network! tell them you want to work for them!
they may not have a spot open at that precise moment, but when you leave an impression like that (how often are they approached on a whim?), they'll be pretty inclined to think of you when a position opens up...or they might just open one up specifically for you :)
I did a reverse job application once. I put a "hire me" link in my webpage, leading to 3 sentences about what I wanted. It worked--the webpage presented a small piece of software, and I was hired to write a bigger version of it. It led to my current job today.
I like this one better than the OP, because the front page gets straight to the point: “Hi. I'm Susan. My superpower is getting things done. It's an exceedingly rare and critical superpower. I battle the agent of chaos. I overdeliver. I delight. I amaze. And I'm looking for a place in need of a superhero like me.” That’s a 30-second elevator speech in 10 seconds.
By comparison, I have to scroll halfway through the original posting to get to an “About Me” section to find out what the author thinks his qualifications are, and they include stuff like “perfectly capable of obtaining my own snacks and beverages” and “usually wearing clothes”. Har har har. Now tell me, as a potential employer, why I should pay you money.
This is one of those things that will work once because of the novelty, but not again. Who really is willing to hire someone based off of nothing but speak? Maybe if he attached this to his work (cool things he has built?) maybe it would work, but all I know about this guy after reading his site is:
- He went to college
- He can't find a job
- He is a programmer
beyond that I know nothing, why would I hire him? Sure this might work this once because it's a ballsy "viral" idea (it's here, if that's proof enough) but it isn't sustainable which is what some people seem to see it as.
While I appreciate the ingenuity of reverse job application, by looking at his resume I'm not surprised that he hasn't been hired. You're right, he needs to make it one page. I would put an objective, and I don't mean some BS objective, but a real heartfelt objective. Also, experience needs to go first. Each piece of 'experience' should detail what he did and MOST IMPORTANTLY its impact.
I agree about changing the layout to make it fit on one page. But I wouldn't remove high school. He's done IB, which is way more challenging than regular high school. It's a straight admissions ticket to many top universities, some even let you skip the freshman year entirely based on what you took with IB.
It's unfortunately not as widely recognized in the US than elsewhere in the world.
But he's looking for jobs after college. High school, for this guy, was 5-6 years ago! Even if he took IB or AP courses...so what? Tons of people have taken IB/AP courses.
A company won't decide to hire you based on your high school marks.
I did admission at a liberal arts college, and IB didn't even impress us. It certainly wouldn't impress me in trying to hire someone. I want someone with enough sense to know that high school doesn't belong on the C.V.
matlab skills are highly desired for some jobs, If you know it well enough to put it on your resume, you should just lump it in with the other languages. same with latex(if you're possibly looking for anything academic/research lab)
Hmm, yes, but MATLAB is only a useful skill when combined with domain knowledge, e.g. DSP, control, whatever. No-one is using MATLAB to write websites.
Not trying to be mean, but looking at the resume, I went straight to the 'projects' section.
Everything else can be so much hot air - but projects speak for themselves.
The first project promises an online development blog - but the link to the blog is dead, and google doesn't find it.
The second project claims he architected and implemented a full game engine. Having a quick play of the game (http://www.andrewhorner.com/sds/ ) reveals it doesn't really work.
It looks pretty, but it doesn't really do anything, its not playable, its not finished, even though the resume implies it is.
That doesn't look good.
The reverse job application was a great pitch to get people to look at your resume, but then you have to make sure they've got something to see. Its great to be able to get attention, but you need to capitalise on it when you do.
And if you are going to be unemployed for 2 years, at least get a finished project to put on your resume, that'd go down a lot better.
Submitter here: This is not my site! I am not the person doing the reverse job application. I stumbled upon the site and thought the mindset was something HN would like and possibly get inspiration from.
It's one thing to not want to list buzzwords. It's something else entirely to make no mention at all of what kind of a job you're looking for, or even what kind of a job you'd be good at. I assumed he wasn't a developer of any kind until I got to his list of "I won't."
(I followed his link at the bottom to his real page and confirmed there that he is a software developer.)
To me, it seems like he's looking more for personal fit than a specific job. On his personal site he says he wants to be a jack-of-all-trades. As one myself, I know he'll have a tough time finding a job using the traditional approach. It's rare to see a job posting for a generalist but, everywhere I've worked had one.
But a generalist in what area. My first thought was he was looking for a job in the advertising industry, based on the page itself. He gives no indication what he wants to do. Even saying "I design things" eliminates, say, accounting.
Violent agreement. Focusing on one thing dramatically increases your chance of success, and makes it easier for folks looking for that specific thing to identify you.
Mr. Horner's site seems even more reverse than a reverse application - does that make sense? He seems to be saying, "First, decide if you like ME. Then, decide if you have a job for me."
EDIT: I should have said "industry" instead of "thing" in my second sentence. He's stated he wants to be a generalist, not a specialist. He would fare better by targeting a specific industry.
Generalists should go for smaller companies, like small web development shops. Those jobs are always, "Programming, plus some simple web design, which means a grasp of SEO, probably Photoshop, occasionally sysadmin work, knowledge of Apache, and you'll have to set up your own version control."
This a great idea. While the resume isn't too precise as to what the specific skills Andrew has to offer, he demonstrates a great one creativity, good writing and high motivation. I predict he is going to get at least a few advertising and marketing job offers... Good luck Andrew!
> Possess strong written, verbal and interpersonal communication skills. If you can't tell the difference between "you're" and "your", your never going to be able to get you're points across to me.
I can't tell if he's doing this intentionally to make a point, or it's just an honest error. Still, it's amusing.
If he had only screwed up the the "your" you pointed out (as in "you're never...") it might be a humorous mistake. But he intentionally screwed up both -- he also said "able to get you're points across".
BTW, thank's for pointing this out. I read that point so fast that I completely missed the joke (which would have been unfortunate).
I know a lot of people on here are saying that this would backfire horribly. I'm sure this would turn away quite a few potential employers. That said, I know several people who would be thrilled to find somebody like this.
Any thing is worth a shot in my opinion - its not like you have not tried any other options so I think that this is a great way to make yourself known.
Best of luck.
give me a break. the vast majority of personal sites are on shared webhosts who don't give clean access to access_log files (etc.) moreover, it's a pain to parse files anyway.
311 comments
[ 3.8 ms ] story [ 90.8 ms ] threadI do think that you will need links to some technologies you've built. If you don't have anything built yet, why not get started? Since you're out of work why not start with something simple (a "facemash" clone for pokemon?? wait, don't do that, I want that one now. oh who am I kidding? the market can bear a dozen facemash for pokemon clones)
I went to see the social network the other day and there was one line that knocked my socks off (wish I'd known it when I was fresh out of uni) "We encourage students to create their jobs rather than find them"
Instead of looking for work, why not get started on making your own work?
Will code for food.
:)
Good luck! Let us know when you've found something!
i've heard a number of times (and believe) that the most successful entrepreneurs are often the B-student rebels that manage to hire the A+ students for their startups.
"we will offer our students the ability to land the job of their dreams or create it." http://www.law.harvard.edu/news/2010/02/09_hls.venture.fund....
At the end of the day, I think it's mostly irrelevant where they say it (Havard, Stanford, Berkley, Carleton, all, none, who cares?) - it's the sentiment that really matters.
Clearly what's needed is a comprehensive registry of facemash-for-pokemon clones. I would suggest that he get on that project.
Best of luck on your ventures!
But i have something of interest to impart to you.
Im from a background of arranged marriages (yes, im ok with it) and my parents are currently looking for a suitor for me.
I've been rejected by ALOT of girls, and have been through almost the exact same thought process as you.
I'd gotten to the point of grovelling, being content with anything that comes my way, but now i'm realising and very quickly that i actually have a lot to offer, and the girls should be begging to come to me.
So henceforth begins my reverse marriage proposal! ;-)
Maybe i should do a blog post!
Careful, that might be confused with "arrogant douchebag". What you look for in a for-profit company aimed at maximizing profits is not necessarily what you'd want in a husband. For example, you probably wouldn't want to "work with a team" to solve intimate marital issues.
Which raises the larger point about this article, and hundreds of other charmingly idiosyncratic applications -- they certainly are refreshing, but may not always be received in the best way. Sometimes professionalism goes a long way. This isn't your college application essay.
I didn't see anything I'd call unprofessional in his application.
People with jobs often feel overly entitled to define what constitutes professionalism. (NB, I'm not addressing you personally, just the amorphous "they".)
To me, the larger point of the article is how difficult in can be to break through the arbitrary and diverse standards each HR department and hiring manager has.
Sometimes it just feels better to state what you want and hope they find you.
If I were him, I wouldn't give a rat's ass about who might not receive it in the best way.
But that's just me. I've been privileged enough to be sought after by my past and potential employers.
Go look at http://jacquesmattheij.com/My+list+of+ideas+for+when+you+are... and pick one. Or come up with another idea. Then build a website that does it. Find some freelance work on the back of that. Something small that can show off your talents. Rinse, repeat. Either you'll start applying to jobs again and get accepted on the basis of your demonstratable skill, someone will give you a job (which you'll have earned,) or you'll be one of the cool consultant-entrpreneur-successes.
As you know, rejection sucks, but the worst thing is the social proof it is against you. I'm thinking to myself "there must be something wrong with this guy, so many people didn't hire him, there must be a reason." Do some things that prove you are a success and people will hire you. You've been unlucky, but sometimes you gotta make your own luck. This is an admirable attempt, but if you want me to believe you are the kind of creative achiever you say you are, you need to do more than say it. You can do it!
EDIT: Damm. As halaric points out, his personal web page does list these things. It still needs at least a direct link and preferably a mention on the application page though.
Then I met a guy who knew a guy, and they got me back on track. Now I have a very nice job with a very nice company where I do amazing work (if I may say so). So anyhow, there are eight million stories in the naked city. This guy's story sounds like my story. I wish him luck.
Here are 2 true stories from personal experience:
(1) Me and girlfriend are out to dinner with her friend when her friend's friend/associate/something phoned to say she was nearby and wanted to join us. She worked in HR. Fast forward past the wine and stuff to the end of the night where she was recounting a story about how she and her colleagues spent most of the time "printing out resumes for review" only to wind up throwing them all in the shredder because of the dauntingly massive volume and lack of coherent approach to dealing with it, deleting the responses to the original job postings and going to their supervisors and telling them they need they needed to "post more ads" and "call more recruiters" because they "couldn't find qualified candidates".
(2) Another HR person (I presumed) I overheard in a barnes and noble talking on the phone to somebody about how she found someone to "channel the job posting responses to a database" ... several moments later (I could only guess the other side of the cell conversation): "I don't know, I guess somebody somewhere looks at the resumes, whatever, they don't pay me enough to give a sh@#".
(3) Applicant side: A pretty damn talented guy I knew couldn't find work for about a year and a quarter. Social proof effects started kicking in until I realized that for all practical reasons he SHOULD be getting a job quite easily. A mutual friend suggested he try to "hire himself" from a HR standpoint to see if things looked different from the other side. After a very long attempt to figure out why, he hired a detective/consultant who found out the type of companies that he applied to in his area started using a particular firm for background checks, and that firm in turn used a service that searched for "probability" quotients that job applicant names were on various lists.
Not ACTUAL matches, mind you, but relative "probabilities" based on letters and letter combinations in name that his name would be on, say, federal databases of felons.
In his case, the match returned with a "moderate to high probability" that, in essence, names like his MAY be on federal lists of felons and people who had to register as sex offenders. And people who had restraining orders against them.
None of this applied to him, but his name "configuration" had, based on I don't know what criteria, a "probability" of being on such list.
Along with, I don't know, thousands of other people who had short, basic anglo-saxon names.
And, of course, there's that infamous YouTube video from 2007 with that law firm advising HR managers at some hotel conference about how to "setup a fax machine near a shredder" to comply with federal hiring laws and then complain to government that they couldn't find qualified candidates in order to score government handouts, tax-breaks and make the case for more temporary visas to take advantage of foreigners who don't realize just how expensive it can be to work in the U.S. and think $30-40k is like hitting the jackpot based on relative buying power back home.
You have to understand that it has to pay to hire you, you are just not entitled to a job because you have a degree.
In case Andrew Horner reads this: yes, I'm one of the people (assuming there are more such curious folks) that filled in junk info to take a peek at those error messages. Sorry!
* Oh, you're unemployed too?
* Not sure how you expect me to respond without this.
* Maybe I'm just old-fashioned, but that doesn't seem like an actual e-mail address.
* Let's not take any chances here.
* You're either a terrible typist or a poor listener. Make sure your email address matches in both fields.
* Hey, if you don't know what to call the job, I'm not sure I want to be doing it.
* SOUNDS INTERESTING. Wait, you didn't write anything here.
I would humbly suggest "Oh, I see you haven't mastered cut'n'paste yet."
i would personally recommend a hybrid approach to the traditional job board postings and the 'reverse job application.'
i believe the best opportunities come from the ones you seek out. don't wait for job postings. many of the best communities recruit from within. get in their network! tell them you want to work for them!
they may not have a spot open at that precise moment, but when you leave an impression like that (how often are they approached on a whim?), they'll be pretty inclined to think of you when a position opens up...or they might just open one up specifically for you :)
-adam
By comparison, I have to scroll halfway through the original posting to get to an “About Me” section to find out what the author thinks his qualifications are, and they include stuff like “perfectly capable of obtaining my own snacks and beverages” and “usually wearing clothes”. Har har har. Now tell me, as a potential employer, why I should pay you money.
- He went to college - He can't find a job - He is a programmer
beyond that I know nothing, why would I hire him? Sure this might work this once because it's a ballsy "viral" idea (it's here, if that's proof enough) but it isn't sustainable which is what some people seem to see it as.
* For your level of experience, Everything should fit on a page.
* Take out the operating system part. They can infer them by the languages you use.
* Take out high school
* Create a section for awards and list them there
* Take out familiar with MatLab and Latex
* For each project give a link to a screen-shot or working project and ensure those links work
* Take out techniques, they should be able to infer them from the projects you did.
*The main point is show what you have done
It's unfortunately not as widely recognized in the US than elsewhere in the world.
A company won't decide to hire you based on your high school marks.
Everything else can be so much hot air - but projects speak for themselves.
The first project promises an online development blog - but the link to the blog is dead, and google doesn't find it.
The second project claims he architected and implemented a full game engine. Having a quick play of the game (http://www.andrewhorner.com/sds/ ) reveals it doesn't really work.
It looks pretty, but it doesn't really do anything, its not playable, its not finished, even though the resume implies it is.
That doesn't look good.
The reverse job application was a great pitch to get people to look at your resume, but then you have to make sure they've got something to see. Its great to be able to get attention, but you need to capitalise on it when you do.
And if you are going to be unemployed for 2 years, at least get a finished project to put on your resume, that'd go down a lot better.
(I followed his link at the bottom to his real page and confirmed there that he is a software developer.)
Mr. Horner's site seems even more reverse than a reverse application - does that make sense? He seems to be saying, "First, decide if you like ME. Then, decide if you have a job for me."
EDIT: I should have said "industry" instead of "thing" in my second sentence. He's stated he wants to be a generalist, not a specialist. He would fare better by targeting a specific industry.
I can't tell if he's doing this intentionally to make a point, or it's just an honest error. Still, it's amusing.
BTW, thank's for pointing this out. I read that point so fast that I completely missed the joke (which would have been unfortunate).
Also, we are having a startup career fair in Berkeley on November 2nd. You guys should all come!
You can register at www.careerelement.com/jobfair