Ask HN: 19, developer, burnt out, advice please
My highschool career could be summed up by one word - mediocre. I didn't do horrible, but I did minimal, except for being in the robotics club. I graduated with the minimal credits because I wanted to finish in 3 years. At the time the classroom environment felt toxic. I was 17 and landed a salaried position doing web development with a very cool company.
Fast forward and I'm almost 20, don't really know if I feel a passion for software - or at least professionally. I realized I only enjoy software if I'm building what I want to build or something that interests me. I'm wondering what HN would do in my shoes, should I just go to college, or is there a better option? I'm willing to put the work into school but I wonder if the cost is worth it. Please consider I would have to start at a community college of sorts because of my academic history. Anyways, please share thoughts and suggestions, thanks.
edit: spelling
73 comments
[ 1.8 ms ] story [ 101 ms ] thread2. Your education is your own to manage, don't expect anything out of class, just do the work, pass and get the piece of paper.
3. Find a few friends and make stuff now, while you have no 9-5 job/wife/kids/401k/etc. to worry about.
Alternatively, try to do contract work. You'll either find that it suits you well (you get to pick what jobs you do) or that you absolutely hate not having someone between you and the client or that you need the structured environment not-being-your-own-boss brings.
That few years also buys you enough time to figure out if there's something else that would keep you occupied and happy than web development.
2. Get away from work and analyze what it is you really want. Then pursue it.
3. Have some time with your relatives, friends, and loved ones.
4. Re-learn the value of being able to enjoy little and solitary moments for yourself.
5. Do some charity / volunteer work.
Why go to school, if you are not sure what your passion is? Only do that if you are 110% sure that's what you want to do the rest of your life.
Take some time off. Do sports, have fun, talk to friends and other people more. Discuss actively the things you like and don't like.
Enjoy whatever you do. Forget about things you don't like, or even worse. you hate.
What? This is one of the main things I think that he would get out of college. It expands your interests and lets you experience things you would not otherwise.
It's awesome that you already have a ton of experience under your belt, but no matter where you go, missing that degree is usually a red flag. Even if you end up as an entrepreneur, it will get you away from a lot of awkward questions. Not only that, but in taking some basic courses you might find that you have some other passions that were hidden before. Not to mention the hundreds of people you'll meet and make connections with.
Also remember that you might not have to go to a community college. Go to some prospective schools, talk to their admissions officers and teachers. Your three years in software development do mean something, and theres a chance you could get in to a school that would actually teach you a lot.
It's almost winter. Ski resorts are hiring. You can meet awesome people in a very low pressure work environment (hey -- a non-college ready made social scene that doesn't cost 40K a year) and have access to head-clearing, soul uplifting physical activity that beats the hell out of jogging. And you'll still have the time and energy to code if you want. And if you want it to be not just a distraction, well, it's a big time industry with connections to other big time industries, and it's really easy to meet and talk with the higher ups at the resort about how your talents might find a place in that world that's not just shovelling snow or selling tickets.
Caveat: I also upvoted the "go to college" comment.
Now that I think about it, quite a few of the good developers and engineers I know are either ski bums, or worked in a ski resort when they got out of secondary school / university.
Utah has amazing skiing close to Salt Lake City, check out Backcountry.com: http://www.backcountrycorp.com/corporate/section/2/jobs.html...
http://burlington.craigslist.org/wri/1989157735.html http://www.smuggs.com/pages/universal/jobs/current.php etc...
Smuggs is fun (prefer Stowe and Okemo, tho) and I love Vermont but the economy there (and anywhere in NE besides Boston) has been in the dumps for years. You'll have to move out of state once the season is over. Plus, all the Northeast resorts are full of grouchy telemarkers and finance dingleberries from Boston and NYC. Mammoth Mountain is filled with olympic snowboarding hopefuls during the week and hot chicks from LA on the weekends. Also consider Big Bear if you want to maximize the social aspect, but it's a much worse hill.
The downside is that it's hard to actually get a job at Mammoth because all the spots are already taken by Australians. Also, the available jobs that are easy to get are usually in food service.
I was burned out of a job 2 years out of college and decided to drop it all and head to Jackson Wyoming. You are locked off from a lot of civilization but you meet some amazing people, have plenty of time to ski/snowboard and code. Needless to say I have been away for 2 years and miss it dearly.
Good luck, burnouts are fun hurdles
You'll also get to meet people from the other side of the world living often much simpler lifestyles, some of which might seem amazing and some which seem horrendous - you'll realise both how challenging and lucrative the work you've been doing is and how little that matters.
Caveat: I also upvoted the "go get a job that sucks comment",
You don't have any kids, mortgage, etc... so the world is pretty much yours to conquer if you really wanted to. You can try whatever you like to find your passion. What's the worst that could happen. You run up a few thousand dollars of debt at age 21. Most of your peers will be around 30k in debt once they finish college.
You know what? It's called work because it isn't fun. Most people do a day job to pay the bills. It's part of being a grown-up and it comes with commitments and responsibilities that yeah, sort of suck a lot of the time. Even if you're lucky enough to do something you love for a living (and I am) it isn't passionate enthusiasm all of the time.
If you can contract on the side with projects you're passionate about or build your own projects, that's how a lot of people stay engaged with the work. If you don't want to be a software developer at all, though, college seems like a good option only if you're going back to find a new area you're genuinely enthusiastic about.
Know what? I guess, you're wrong. If you (abstract you, not the you I am replying to) are doing things that you don't like, you're pitiful, at the very least. I strongly believe that life is too short to waste it on things you aren't "genuinely enthusiastic about".
My 2c.
And, this is coming from someone who works a 9-to-5 (albeit from home, which I believe helps IMMENSELY), and who is working on starting his second business (the first one was totally misguided and I had no heart for the industry, so it sorta fizzled out). I don't want to quit because the work sucks, I dig it just fine; I just want to go my own way. That way, my complaints of low pay, paltry vacation time, benefit shrinkage, or lack of a window overlooking cool stuff flow straight to someone who may listen and respond a little better.
Most of the stuff you have to do to live is crap work nobody has a passion for or wants to do, then there's some measure that's tolerable, then a little bit that you look forward to, then there's a teeny tiny little bit up top that's awesome fun.
If you try and set unrealistic expectations that you only want to work on the teeny little bit that's fun, you'll always end up disappointed because the rest of the crap work supports you being able to do the fun stuff.
Of course, if your job never lets you experience any fun stuff, then what's the point? Move on. But don't expect you'll find a place that's only fun.
Even the craziest 90s dot-com companies, with pool tables, lava lamps, comfy chairs, top-of-the-line machines, liberal dog policy, etc. ended up not really being terribly fun places to work in the end, because they forgot to do the crap work that nobody wants to do.
This phenomenon actually manifests itself in a very real way in the open source world. Nobody actually wants to write device drivers or boot loaders or other such drudgery, so that stuff simply doesn't get worked on. What we end up with then is upteen million shells, window managers, audio subsystems, and other junk yet nobody can get their wireless card to work. (okay, maybe a bit of an exaggeration, but until the open source world found itself corporate sponsors, lots of necessary but boring stuff simply didn't get built).
I love my job, and I'm quite enthusiastic about it most of the time. But on some days I just don't feel good, and sometimes things like meetings can get annoying. Just because I don't enjoy it 100% of the time, all day every day doesn't mean I'm pitiful or that I'm wasting my life.
Do I like doing PPC campaigns? No, I sort of hate it but I do it because the clients I love need it and there isn't anyone else to do it. I wish more of them would get better at doing their own newsletters well, too, but I also want a pony and that isn't happening either, so I do monthly emailings for the clients who need them because I want them to do it right.
Am I passionate about PPC and newsletters? Hell no. But I am passionate about these people and these companies so I do it cheerfully because it's part of my job to do the tedious and annoying stuff that supports all the other work I love to do. I don't think that's pitiful; in fact I am pretty sure that's exactly the way it's supposed to work.
A lot of talented people are perpetually stuck because once the novelty wears off on something, they get antsy and move onto something else. It's nothing to do with their skill level, just the phobia of doing a long, long grind to get to a goal.
I'm a painter, and I've developed before, it all looks the same to me - once you have a brilliant idea and get over the fun bit, you need to work on the other 80% of it until it's done. Once an idea settles in your head and stops being exciting, the real work begins; after that point it takes actual sacrifice and dedication that isn't being fueled by anything other than your own decisions and time management.
Since then I've been doing web development at a couple different smaller agencies. Usually either the job is great and the pay sucks or vice versa. That's my experience at least. It sounds pretty ungrateful now that I'm saying it.
Anyway, a couple of moths ago the owners of my company said that they were going to move to out of state and that all (5) of us were going to work from home. At first I resisted, but then I realized that this could be an opportunity. Despite the monotony of working at home, I have been a lot more free to work on my side projects and the MVP for my startup eyeclash is launching this month. I can honestly say that I've never felt better about the work that I am doing.
So I guess my point is, don't expect the way you feel to change with the scenery. College really didn't help me much with my personal aspirations and neither did most of the jobs I've had. Working on my own stuff and collaborating with others on "side projects" (aka possible startups) is really the only thing that has been able to bring me the satisfaction that it sounds like you are looking for.
Also what wccrawford describes worked for me (I just needed couple of month at a crappy job, to be so happy/thankful to go to college).
You think college is just doing what you want? If you can suck it up for college suck it up for a business. You're getting paid to learn. Start taking charge at work, and start it by taking on the responsibilities no one else wants.
Leverage your youth and things you've already accomplished into a compelling story. Start going to industry events and network.
Use the fact that you have a decent job already to spend less hours working and more hours networking. Find the opportunities you want and grab them by the horns.
In life you eat what you kill. Learn to enjoy the hunt.
Just...do something else. More than likely, you'll come back to it later. (If you don't, that's cool too, but I honestly enjoy programming for its own sake.) The ski resort idea is solid, personally what I ended up doing was starting my own business, failing, doing contract work here and there while getting an education in comp sci and philosophy.
Going to college isn't a horrible idea if you don't know what you want to do, but I think that's something you could do after doing some working/travelling for a bit. (Caveat: I still haven't gone to formal school)
There are two good ways to do this. One is going to college full-time, and taking random-ass courses that you think might be interesting. Don't go for the degree, don't focus on CS courses only. Go for the experience, put effort into things that aren't required that you think may benefit you, and especially talk to people. The second way is to get a boring nine-to-five job that puts food on the table and gives you enough spare time to get a hobby or a side project. Then just do whatever suits your fancy, until you find something that suits your fancy and you want to be more serious about. Getting a crappier job is actually better, as it will be easier psychologically to drop it and follow your dream when you find it.
The third, less desirable, option is to be a bum. This is much like getting a crappy job and exploring on the side, except without the job, and subsequently without the food that it puts on the table. This requires either awesome friends or a savings account. Be warned, it's habit-forming. I would recommend the other 2 options because they'll teach you self-discipline, which is important.
now, uh, as for burnout, at 19, it's probably social. Are you dating? do you want to be? Put some effort into that arena. Maybe cut back a little on your work effort, but my advice is to keep your job. (I mean, by all means, switch jobs within your career focus if you see an opportunity... I'm just saying, don't leave the field.)
When I was a little bit older than you I also felt burnt out. I quit, saying I wasn't going to work in IT ever again. And I then failed to get all manner of menial jobs. It was a miserable experience. I got another IT job within a month or two, but it was a significantly worse job (in terms of experience learned; it actually paid about the same... but I went from being the small fish around some really great people to being the 'big fish') that I think probably set my career back many years.
As for dating, uh, I can't give you specific advice, other than to say it's like any other problem, if you put effort into it, you will make progress.
for social stuff in general, moving to silicon valley can give you a fresh perspective. Nerds are concentrated here, and they have a higher social standing in the valley than anywhere else I've lived. This can, to a large extent, solve the problem of feeling like a supernerd that nobody likes or understands, because it's very easy here to put yourself in a group where you are the least nerdy person in the room.
1) Go to college (yet another monthly "should I go to college?" posts on HN sigh). I didn't go until my 20's either, and I've yet to regret going. I certainly regret going that late. The reasons to do it are numerous, but there's one important one that matters above all else, it's an investment that will pay for itself very quickly if you do it right, and will continue to make you money long long after you've finished.
2) Learn to work on stuff you don't want to work on. I know I'll sound old and crotchety, but that's what distinguishes adults from kids, adults spend most of their time doing crap nobody wants to do because it just simply has to get done. It take extraordinary discipline to do this, and you have to work hard at building that kind of discipline. It doesn't mean you spend your life in a joyless and soulless pursuit of meaningless trivia, it means you understand you have to do shit work sometimes in order to get to play on stuff you want.
3) Learn to pace yourself. You aren't burned out yet, trust me. Do what you are doing now, with twice the number of hours, plus a full course load, a mortgage, a couple car payments and a family, and you'll learn what burnout is within 4-5 years. But you should learn the skill, how to pace yourself, because it really is amazing how much stuff people can juggle if you learn to do it the right way. If you run around pumped to max with your brain on fire for everything, you will burn out in a few years.
From my perspective, college has a lot to offer. Research, the chance to meet important people in the field, the chance to meet interesting people out of the field. These influenced my decision to be here (though I hadn't actually considered the possibility that college wasn't a requirement).
If you know your interests, I think going to college (for a degree) is a great way to go, because you can learn cool stuff full-time and meet people like you. Clearly you thought you did know -- but it turns out that working as a webdev wasn't the answer.
Given that, you probably need to talk to people who aren't the people you identify with. My vote is to take some time to find your interests, by traveling or being a bum on the streets of New York. Talk to everyone you meet about their interests. (Make a point, of course, to meet anyone and everyone you possibly can.) Hopefully you'll find that someone will infect you with their own passion.
If none of those float your boat, then get a part time job (one that you won't tie to your identity -- it's hard to get burnt out from being a waiter, even if it sucks to do) and make enough to pay your living expenses while you take classes in any subject you can think of at a community college. (Not for a degree, but to see if anything catches your interest.)
Whatever path you need to take, find _something_ that interests you. And then do it.
If it turns out later that web development (but only cool projects) is really what you want to do, then do it. If you still can't do it as a salaried position, other HNers have recommended going freelance. I'd say either that or keep your non-identity day job while you build shit on the side -- just make sure that one of your projects is making you enough money to put something away, because you won't be able to live forever on next to nothing.
Heed edw's advice. Go to college. College is as much about the education you get in the classroom as it is about the education you get outside of it.
You're actually in an interesting spot, because a year or two of community college, while not exactly like a 4-year school, will help you determine whether or not you really want to put forth the effort to complete a degree. It will also be cheaper than a 4-year if you decide not to stick with it.
This is the only time in life it's (borderline) socially acceptable to try those things. FFS, enjoy it while you can. You'll have plenty of time in front of a computer later.
(I'm 21 and in Denmark, fwiw.)
I think you're right actually. I actually had a lot of European friends in college because they were far less superficial than most American students.
I think we're coming to a time in the US, and the perhaps the world, where smart / creative people can find each other and find their passions without needing much school. The industrial revolution brought us this system, but now we need something further evolved. I think FabLabs, the Khan Academy, Open Courseware, etc. are all part of this new genus of educational species.
Why is everyone such a punk about not being able to do cool things if you aren't enrolled in a degree-seeking program?
(Also, I'm American, so all I can do is confirm people have exactly the same social dysfunction you think they do.)
You sound like an entrepreneur to me. Find something you want to build, and build it. Lather. Rinse. Repeat.