Ask HN: What should I do when I'm bored with my career?
Unfortunately, I can't afford not to work. So I need a career of some kind and am looking for a career that's more aligned with what naturally motivates me. I've contemplated going back to school but am not convinced this is a good idea. I have a degree from an art school, no formal computer science education, and no math since highschool. I also don't have much money. If I wanted to study computer science, I'd have to start at the undergraduate level and borrow a lot of money. School as an investment makes sense to me but I'm not sure what I would be investing in. I don't think a career in academia would appeal to me, and borrowing that much money because I'm bored at work sounds like a bad idea.
Does anyone have a suggestion for what I can/should do to improve my circumstances?
110 comments
[ 2.0 ms ] story [ 176 ms ] threadI was exactly feeling like this before i started budiness then i found friends to take over the boring parts.
Accepting it is transitioning from the realisation that you’re doing it because it’s interesting to doing it because it pays the bills and funds other interests.
Changing it is transitioning something else into the place that is currently occupied by work.
Both of these require finding something that interests you so start there.
But remember, life is long, interests wax and wane so this is perfectly normal and don’t sweat it as some failure or worry about it being a wrong attitude.
Edit: Just to add I’ve been through this twice. First I changed it (electrical engineering to software engineering). Now I accept it because my interests will never pay the bills I have :)
What about programming do you like?
You will be able to find work you love. If not, you will be able to easily switch projects and find something you will love doing. You will have the flexibility to work when you need money and the flexibility to work on your own projects when you have some savings in your pockets. Or better, you can do part-time projects for clients and part-time in your own projects. You can tailor your working habits.
30-40% is also probably a bit of a stretch for the recruiter's take (former recruiter here). Those numbers and higher are certainly possible, but 20% is a bit more likely. Also, if you are getting a competitive rate for your work, it really doesn't matter what the recruiter is taking, does it? If they are able to negotiate a huge finder's fee on top of your competitive rate, that's their skill being rewarded.
I'll actually pay a finder's fee to those who find me consulting gigs (ones that pay senior rates). LinkedIn isn't working for me, here.
edit: source: I was a hiring manager in a past role and I learned the real take-home pay of the consulting agencies when they farm out consultants.
Hold on - I'm not talking about "finder's fee," I'm talking about agencies that seek consultants (W2 or C2C) that take a cut of 30-50% or more in perpetuity. For example, a job advertised as "$80/hr" to the consultant, is billed to the client as maybe $130/hr or more. That keeps consultant pay suppressed. The way around that is to a) know people in companies, like CTO's; or b) have a reputation that lets you not have to go through the consulting agency (or recruiter, same thing in NYC) bidding process (or at least that's what I call it).
When I was a recruiter, if I placed a candidate for a FTE role and get say 20% fee (based on starting salary), I got that same fee whether someone remains in the job for 90 days or 90 years. I don't get additional money for each year they stay. That makes sense, because I'm not really responsible at all for that hire once it's made.
For consultants, recruiters may play some role in maintaining the relationship between the hiring client and the consultant. Not all recruiters do this, but many stay in contact with the consultant (to protect their investment) and with the client (to maintain that relationship, place more consultants, and ensure the client is satisfied with the work).
I'm not trying to defend predatory practices by recruiters, but if a recruiter is able to negotiate a large mark-up for their consultant, that's a skill that they should be rewarded for financially.
To view it another way, if I get a client to pay $130/hr for an open role, and I identify a qualified consultant willing to take that job for $70/hr, that's a combination of A) my skill as a recruiter, and B) the consultant's inability to recognize their own market value or inability to negotiate a higher hourly rate.
I don't think gouging is good for the industry overall, but if the consultant is happy at $70/hr and the client is also happy at $130/hr, what's "wrong" with the recruiter taking that $60/hr?
Everybody is happy, no? At least everybody is happy when there is no transparency as to where that $130 is going.
FYI, I'm playing devil's advocate here. During my career I did very little consulting work and my margins were usually closer to 15-20% of hourly rate, though I once worked for someone who had a 400% mark-up on a consultant for almost 3 years (consultant was paid ~$50/hr and bill rate was over $200).
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
The idea here is: if you have a substantive point to make, make it thoughtfully; if you don't, please don't comment until you do.
Edit: you've done this repeatedly and we've already had to warn you repeatedly. If you don't stop doing this we're going to have to ban you, so please stop doing this!
The things that you can do is becoming a tech blogger. You can explore the latest JS frameworks, Robotics, AI, blockchain, mobile apps and put your exploration in a blog.
You can monetize it by creating an ebook and sell it in your blog.
But writing is hard. So you must be patient. For now stick to your job and do the blogging part-time.
In any case, my advice, don't take for granted that programming as an occupation is the right thing just because you like it when you can choose exactly what to do.
I'd say find an area of interest – one that doesn't have anything to do with programming. Then learn as much as you can about it. Next, identify things you can change with your programming skill.
Once, you've identified 3/4 things, find some people who make a living dependent on those things. Go talk to them about how you would improve things. If they light up, it's time to start coding. Else find something else to change.
The combination of learning about a new industry you know not much about and trying to build a solution for that industry, should keep you busy outside office. Leverage that, and use your office time as your down time.
- Freelance software development - This would give you some control over what types of projects you work on, and you could focus on areas that really interest you. Maybe it would be projects that enable you to learn a new language. You also can typically work from home, and you will be able to balance your time between different work.
- Freelance writing - If your writing is good you can certainly pick up some $$ here and there by writing articles for tech sites. I've done that for tech sites as a writer on career topics, and many of these sites are always seeking new content. The amount of money may not be a game changer, but if you enjoy the work you can probably make this 10% of your overall income.
Personal projects - Perhaps some of them can be monetized and you just haven't come up with the correct concept. Or perhaps you can come up with some ideas for projects that are both interesting and able to be monetized.
Working for yourself is quite motivating. I've done it for several years, and when failure isn't an option you will find ways to stay motivated. I spent 20 years in recruiting before transitioning fully to my current job (resume writing, content writing, career consulting, other freelance writing projects), and I've really enjoyed the change.
Some people aren't cut out for a 9-5. I certainly am not, and it doesn't sound like you are either.
I am not sure if they still do that though - last time I did that was about 2 years ago.
I wrote about their tech and how to integrate it in a different stack. I believe they paid about 200 USD for it.
I'd look it up but I am on mobile atm so it's not convenient. Might be worth to look up their website if it interests you.
Reaching out to site editors with a couple samples of work could find you getting work published. As a freelance software developer, getting paid to write is nice, but just getting published can help increase exposure and lead to more incoming requests for project work and improved reputation.
Backpack and move to Chiangmai. Look at life from different angle, you'll see people who are barely getting by and still happy.
Start freelancing and getting contract work. It's not really difficult if you
a) can skype interview b) work with git/GitHub
Then find like minded people and make a team. US in not the only place on Earth.
I've moved to Mumbai from NYC and i couldn't be much happier. Our whole team is remote.
I would hesitate moving to a “3rd world” (I know not all developing countries are the same) long-term as I got the impression once you start caring about schools/healthcare (serious stuff, not getting some routine dental work) they become a lot less attractive.
Works well for me as I prefer, and am happy, to be single.
I do work for clients directly, and typically charge for consults on an hourly basis (which can be broken up into smaller sessions as necessary). My contact info is in my HN profile.
Improve another thing. And repeat.
Fix a broken latch in your home. Improve your code a few lines at a time. It adds up.
The only solution is to realize the scale of this Grand Happening which we call as life or existence. That every day comes fresh and new, not a single atom is the same as it was a moment ago. But if you don't have this much attention it feels "the same", "boring". And it's not about the job only, friends, family, movie you name it.
If you realize this you can swipe a floor for the lifetime and it will never be boring.
So what? What difference does that make to OP?
I warn anyone getting into meditation. It leads to dissociation (an extreme form of everyday withdrawal from emotions) which creates the illusion that one is "happy" or "not bored".
PM me if you'd like discuss more but can't be bothered to do it publicly for fear of opprobrium from other meditators. :-P
Just kidding. Aside from some of the funny wording this is a nice, simple philosophy and I'm going to think about it today.
I suspect (happy to be wrong) when you say you like learning you mean you like everything about programming except the tedious task of drawing everything into a coherent whole and polishing it.
I think if you conceive of learning in a broader sense you may enjoy work more by finding insights in the process and in the people.
I like to think about the guy stuck in a shit town, working in a coal mine. Maybe they all drink themselves to oblivion and I'm delusional, but I envision at least some of them this way: Guy goes down there and busts his ass all day in the dark, getting dirty as fuck, probably doing long term damage to his lungs and such. But it's his job and at the end of the day he goes home to his wife, kids, and dog, and realizes that work is just something he has to do to support the parts of his life he cares about.
>> Does anyone have a suggestion for what I can/should do to improve my circumstances?
Yeah, quit acting like an entitled little child. Be grateful that you have a job that often requires more education than you have. Stop thinking you can just monetize some personal interests and retire. Life requires effort, give it some. Once you get over that hump you may be able to consider which alternative you're willing to put actual effort toward.
OP more likely than not realizes that they are in a situation of privilege compared to someone working in the mines to sustain their family; if they are posting here, then clearly that insight alone has not sufficed to help them deal with what they are feeling.
All we know from OP is 3 paragraphs of text they wrote, asking for help; telling them to stop “acting like an entitled little child” is downright rude and not what HN is about.
Look, not everyone can be an Instagram model or a YouTube star. Sometimes a good smack in the face is what's needed to spark a little motivation. Sometimes not, but I think it's worth putting out there.
For some less harsh motivation I'll offer this:
https://www.ted.com/talks/mel_robbins_how_to_stop_screwing_y...
I think it says a lot about your worldview and experience if you think there are only two careers (industry drone and Instagram celebrity). There are lots of jobs people find happiness through, like teaching or creating art. If you have some time off work for new years, I'd recommend playing the game The Stanley Parable.
1. At micro, any job will have good times and bad times. Times when you’re super engaged and times when you’re slogging through it. Try to push through a bad time, there’s a feeling of accomplishment in coming over the hump. Try to find change when the hump is insurmountable over a long period with no chance of change.
2. At macro, everything in life is like this too. Some periods will just be about showing up, and that’s okay. Showing up is something you can build on. If all you’re doing is showing up and it ends up not being a period but a new normal, seek change.
Entitlement has become this derogatory term over the last several decades, but every person is entitled to pursuing greater levels of happiness. Good on you for not settling.
It's possible that OP's problem is largely that he has worked for bad companies/managers.
The point is that life is that way, not the way we would like it to be.
> What’s the point of doing unfulfilling things that make you die sooner?
The point is that (almost?) all jobs are like that.
Airline pilot? Yeah, you fly, and that's cool. Get to see the world? Also cool. Get to travel the world and not see it because you have to fly back out? Less cool. Being chronically sleep-deprived? Not good for your health. Waking up when the alarm goes off in some random hotel room, and not knowing what city you're in? Not so glamorous.
Even computer work is bad for your health. Sitting around being sedentary, for years? Not good. That's without carpal tunnel, but that can come from the work too.
Now, neither of those are as unfulfilling or as dangerous as working in a coal mine. But all work is unfulfilling, at least some of the time. If you don't understand that, you're going to be unhappy no matter what you do.
That said, some jobs are a whole lot more fulfilling than others. More: Some jobs are a lot more fulfilling for you than others. It makes perfect sense to try to figure out what kind of work you would find more fulfilling, and how to get a job doing it. But if you expect it to be fulfilling always and never unfulfilling, it will disappoint you.
In fact, I'd say that you need to find your real fulfillment somewhere else. That way, you can come to work without expecting it to fully fulfill you. You then won't try to squeeze out of your job what it can never give you, and then reject it because it couldn't give you what you wanted.
I worked a blue collar job manufacturing commercial signage for several years before I got a job as a programmer. I'd wake up at 5, work on learning to code, and then go to my job. Sign making isn't coal mining but it is a low wage job with few benefits and negative impact on your health. I didn't find much of the stoic worker type you describe among the people I worked with. Most had families. Everyone hated their job. It breaks you down physically, the boredom wears on you mentally, and providing for someone else doesn't make this easier.
I am grateful that I now get paid 5x what I used to make, sit in an expensive chair, and get free beer at the office. But I think it's good to be honest with yourself when what you have doesn't feel like enough. Trying to push that feeling away doesn't help to resolve it, in my experience.
I do think that an attitude adjustment is called for. But I'm trying to sort out what is a product of attitude and what is a product of external circumstance.
Finally, I think a world where everyone has the freedom to pursue what they're interested in would be an ok world. It's not always possible but it wouldn't be wrong if it was.
> Guy goes down there and busts his ass all day in the dark, getting dirty as fuck, probably doing long term damage to his lungs and such. But it's his job and at the end of the day he goes home to his wife, kids, and dog, and realizes that work is just something he has to do to support the parts of his life he cares about.
Where this romanticizing of hard work comes from? Protestant work ethics? A coal mine person working "down there" better find a partner before starting the career (i.e before the age of 18). Otherwise with the low status of the job and its hardness one has zero change finding partner afterwards. Many don't do and wreck themselves from misery by reaching, lowered already usually, retirement age. Yes it's devastating for their health and lungs.
These "be a man" life advices are almost always obsolete.
There were 3 of us working 15 - 20 hours a week. Most boring job imaginable (I'd do it Saturday and Sunday, 10 hours each). I found I could listen to audio books so I smashed through several hundred over the years of doing this (as well as the Teaching Company and other lectures).
I also started to look for ways to improve the process. I spent a little time exploring databases and OCR over my mandatory unpaid lunch and breaks. Eventually, I realized I could rather eaisly automatically change filenames, add to an SQL database, add a few tags, etc.
I then could setup a scanning job, which used to require manual data entry after each page, to then do one massive scanning job and only edit a few "failures" after the fact. This let me scanning 10x over the other two employees.
It looked good for me, so I got moved into network admin (more fun), which further kept my attention.
My point, it's up to you to find the motivation. But if you're curious and interested in self improvement, money, moving up the company ladder, etc. Then you can find the motivation to push yourself to at least try to change your situation. I did it via audio books and experimenting on breaks, what you do is unique to you.
or go on a party binge so your job becomes harder to do, more challenging due to tiredness.
Why not write something useful to help your daily work?
I can't imagine a project where i would not love to have enough time to actually cleanup/fix/extend/create x for our project we are working on.
Once I realised that I quit my job and started working for a company with real end users...
Some things that make every day fun
- trying to know for who you are building your software for, talk to this end user, get to know how useful (or useless) your construction is actually solving something or not. I'm 100% sure that if you see many people using and feeling thankful from what you made, that would make you feel great. Nothing less!
- improving the environment of your company. Look, everyone has a big problem. They are also coming to work with some problem on the back of their heads. If we could just light this a bit, it is immensely rewarding. We're going to die anyway, so why not make our existence a noble one? :D
- find a topic that you like and present it to your boss, try to find together a way to combine both. He may have some idea, or the boss of your boss. Everyone wins when you are motivated
- plan your big escape: if your goal is to only study, consider making some money, moving to a cheap place (Thailand?), and with a leeway for a few years, you can try to experiment some ideas. Why not put some courses on udemy for example? Teach all you could, in the best way possible and learn how to promote what you do
Have fun!
However what will help is doing it differently. Can you do time blocking? I assume that while you are doing interesting things at work, no one notices or cares. That is a great job! So why not block your 1st half to do the necessary boring work, and the second half the interesting work. Win Win! I agree this may need some discipline but think of it as a daily ritual! Btw, many greats [1] have had rituals like this, so who knows? :-)
The other aspect you might be missing is 'when interesting things turn boring'. Usually that happens when you want to ship the product and you hit the long tail of shipping. Try replacing 'doing interesting' vs 'doing interesting and shipping'. But we don't want to give up the idea of doing only interesting? That happens when you can work through the boring parts of shipping an interesting piece of work. Keep trying and you will find it, then find a job in that domain or do your startup in that domain and you are set. I realised 3D graphics was my calling the same way, so I am saying from experience.
[1] : https://www.amazon.com/Daily-Rituals-How-Artists-Work/dp/030...
What you mention feels in line with the book Start with Why by Simon Sinek.
You need to decide if you want to do programming as work, or hobby.
If you decide to do programming as work, go find another hobby that keeps you interested and treat programming solely as revenue source and don't devote too much into it.
Otherwise, you get to enjoy programming a hobby, and you need to find a source of income. This can be from the hobby, but it kills the fun of it.