We determined previously the guy is full of shit, knowingly manufacturing counterfeits in China and scheming to avoid interception by customs, plainly stating as much in email which was later used as evidence.
It seems that this "manufacturing counterfeits" is literally just copying Windows CDs:
> Lundgren made 28,000 of the discs and shipped them to a broker, who planned to sell them to computer refurbishing shops for about 25 cents each, so they could provide them to used-computer buyers.
> Microsoft’s lawyers valued the discs at $25 each and said they represent $700,000 in potential sales.
Firstly I think it's a harsh sentence (because copying isn't theft[0]), but secondly can anyone tell me why on earth he didn't just burn some Debian discs? (Perhaps with LXDE if it's really old computers.)
Yea, ok. But then Windows itself has changed so much, that something like XFCE arguably feels more like XP/Vista than Windows 8 or 10 does. From my personal observation the Charms Bar especially appears to confuse people. (Or, did he in fact put Windows XP on those older computers? If so, then that's also highly irresponsible, as it doesn't receive any security updates!)
So I wonder why Lundgren has been going out of his way to face potential criminal prosecution, fines and jail time in order to provide what most people arguably might more familiar with? I don't get his cost/benefit analysis.
People still install Windows software on their computers; among other things there are still printers and other peripherals with drivers that are only available for Windows (as insane as that may seem in this day and age). It is not just familiarity with the UI.
He didn't just copy the software content of the disc. He reproduced the printing and labelling of the originals, and kept refining his product to look more similar to the original so they'd get through customs.
He wasn't always selling them for 25cents. There are documents from him where he's selling them for $20.
> He reproduced the printing and labelling of the originals, and kept refining his product to look more similar to the original so they'd get through customs.
Ok, I think that may justify using the word "counterfeit" then.
> There are documents from him where he's selling them for $20.
The thing is, it would have been perfectly legal for him to sell Debian CDs for $20. That would still have made the old computers usable again. It's good to make use of old computers, but I think the implied argument of having to copy Windows recovery CDs to save old computers is nonsense.
The story just puzzles me. Maybe he didn't realise that you can sell free software[1]?
People want those CDs to get their computers working again with all their word documents .xls .ppt, if you mother took her wintel desktop to a local shop and came home with Debian kind or running on the random hardware what use would that be to her?
It demonstrates dishonesty, which is what turns this from someone not knowing what they're doing into someone making the choice to engage in criminal behaviour.
All of his protestation - "I was only selling them for cost" (a lie), and "I was trying to extend the life of computers" (linux would have done that, and the free downloads of Windows would have done that) - is the defence he tried to mount against the criminal charge.
>> Lundgren made 28,000 of the discs and shipped them to a broker, who planned to sell them to computer refurbishing shops for about 25 cents each, so they could provide them to used-computer buyers.
>> Microsoft’s lawyers valued the discs at $25 each and said they represent $700,000 in potential sales.
Something doesn't match: on the Microsoft's page I get:
"one transaction alone generated $28,000 in revenue for Mr. Lundgren and his co-defendant from the sale of 8,000 discs."
Which means his revenue was $3.5 pro disc in that case.
Interestingly, in both cases the number 28,000 is specified.
Probably no Linux because these were intended to be used with old computers sold to consumers. And regardless of the merits of Linux, virtually no average consumer is going to purchase a computer without Windows.
The guy is full of shit, but so is Microsoft. The travesty here is that the justice system sided with the corporate gorilla in a commercial issue that should be solved in a civil court. There is no greater social value at stake here, there is zero public interest in criminally enforcing Microsoft's licensing scheme and their various loopholes designed to maximize revenue.
It's their software and they can do whatever they want with it. The real travesty here is thinking that just because Windows is widely used it should be given away.
I agree with the sentiment, but in this case it appears the discs were just being used to restore software that was still legally licensed to the computer. But license issues aside, it seems this guy was conspiring to commit fraud through the customs/import process too.
I don't know, I personally find the "I'm selling the CDs because people don't know it's available for free online" a bit unconvincing. He did it in hopes of profiting [0] by misleading people into thinking they pay for an original. What he sold is freely available online, one search away. Definitely a lot more accessible than buying his discs. This article is heavily biased and fails to present any of the evidence that puts the guy in a bad light.
Also [1]:
> However, in essence, what Lundgren eventually pleaded guilty to was making these Dell refurbishers’ customers believe that they were obtaining a genuine Dell-branded "Reinstallation Disc" with Dell’s blessing, when in actuality, they weren’t.
P.S. I love how the downvotes pour in with no actual dissenting opinion :). Nowhere even in the guy's own emails can anyone find anything but mentions of profit, a ripe market, and basically doing his best to deceive customers by making the product look like a genuine Dell one (arranging for fake Microsoft and Dell labels to be applied to the discs). Nobody goes to such lengths to deceive their customers out of honesty and good intentions.
What he did is like recycling paper into freshly printed counterfeit banknotes. Real Robin Hood.
> “You would have to be an expert with a magnifying glass to know and/or see such differences.” [2]
> “If the software will be 98% accurate I believe I can get away with that.” [2]
The only way in which they weren't "genuine" is that the plastic they were made from was not blessed by Dell, that's it. The data on them was perfectly genuine, and the data on them could be obtained for free anyway.
You might as well argue that downloading the disk image through a third-party ISP is a counterfeit because the ISP is sending you bits labeled as coming from Microsoft on their own medium, and they are even profiting from it!
So... the only way a fake dollar bill isn't genuine is that the paper it's made from is not blessed by the US government? When you put it like that yes... still very much fake and a crime ;). Like any other counterfeiting. The least he could have done was tell the customers they are "replicas" or whatever. But he'd make less money.
Also the guy himself expected the software on that "plastic" to be 98% accurate. Of course, none of the customers ever got to know that. Do you think the end users paid just 25c for them also? ;)
Since you have no problem with getting fakes without knowing in advance, how would you feel if the next time your parents give you allowance money they were "98% accurate" fakes?
> So... the only way a fake dollar bill isn't genuine is that the paper it's made from is not blessed by the US government?
No, a dollar bill that was not blessed by the FED does not fulfill the one and only function of a currency of being an accounting tool for people's economic contributions to society. A copy of a windows disc is functionally identical to a "genuine" windows disc.
> The least he could have done was tell the customers they are "replicas" or whatever.
Well, sure he could. But why should he, legal reasons aside? Should ISPs label all websites as "replicas" because you receive a copy made by the ISP?
> But he'd make less money.
So? Is it ethically wrong to do something that earns you more money?
> Also the guy himself expected the software on that "plastic" to be 98% accurate.
Source? In particular, what kind of inaccuracies are we talking about?
> Since you have no problem with getting fakes without knowing in advance, how would you feel if the next time your parents give you allowance money they were "98% accurate" fakes?
I have a problem with getting fakes without knowing in advance. I just don't subscribe to the idea that an identical copy of digital data is a fake.
Actually that is not the purpose of money (maybe one of them). But we just agreed that if it's identical (or you know, at least 98% accurate) I can put someone else's "seal of approval" and be totally legit. You can't have it both ways.
The seller should be honest about what he's selling. You asking "why?" says a lot. The issue that was described pretty clearly for most people around here isn't the theft of software but the fact that the guy put MS and Dell labels on the physical object (the CD) without any legal right. Oh, if we "just" put the legal reasons aside sure, this is totally legit. Just like every other crime out there ;).
> Source? In particular, what kind of inaccuracies are we talking about?
Source? Try the links in my comment. It was in the guy's email, presented as evidence in court. Reading before replying helps make your comment a little more relevant. The first things that come to mind is that he used a very outdated image and subpar CD blanks to cut costs.
> I just don't subscribe to the idea that an identical copy of digital data is a fake.
There are people who don't subscribe to the idea that a woman should be allowed to change her mind during intercourse. There was already an agreement in place. Does this make them right? Back to out topic, the physical CD with fake labels is a fake, as was made very clear in the many official quotes I put in the comment. What if I put a Nike label on my fake a*s home-made shoes and sell them to you for $200? I'm innocent right? The shoes are my own creation and apparently I'm free to use someone else's name as I see fit. Legit. Law aside...
The "I reject your reality and substitute my own" argument doesn't make for a good defense argument in court or a good comment.
So this is about whether or not Dell gave permission? Oh, heaven forbid that someone do something without the blessing of the big corporations! Why, I hesitate to even mention the name Dell in this very post without first asking them for their permission...
The "deceit" here is on the level of "rinse and repeat" instructions on shampoo bottles. The disks contained exactly what customers expected and the "deception" was only in the labeling of the disks. Just because the business seems a bit sleazy does not mean he deserves jail time.
Sure... everything is ok until you get a fake. Then it's a problem. Next time you buy any brand just think whether you'd be willing to pay that much or at all knowing it's a fake label and the content might be "98% accurate". Software included.
Would a person selling you a fake dollar deserve jail time? Do you need more time to think about what you're saying?
Except that he was not giving people "fake Windows" or "98% Windows" or anything other than what people were expecting: Windows. It was just that he made a copy without first getting permission. I do not really care if a copy was authorized or not, and I feel no more safe getting authorized copies after seeing things like this:
Except he was, according to his own emails he couldn't guarantee "his" product was 100% identical to the original.
The second major argument that you miss because nobody was next to you to read it aloud to you so you can catch it is that he went to prison for putting fake labels on a physical CD and claiming that object is an original. Most likely because of using an outdated copy of the software and low quality CD blanks (and manufacturing process) to cut costs.
Whether you feel safe or not is not the point. At least one person bought that CD at a price (NOT 25c) assuming it was original, "guaranteed" by Dell, and would not have paid the price knowing it's just a fake from a guy in his basement so to speak.
And if he wanted to "extend the life of electronics" he would have just given people direct links to the free downloads. But he didn't, he wanted to make money by breaking the law. I'm disturbed that this is so hard to understand for some people.
I can only assume none of you have ever achieved something worth using or stealing which is why it's hard to comprehend why someone stealing your name to put on their stolen copy is not cool.
This sentencing is wrong. Microsoft was not even selling those disks and the computers on which the software was intended to be installed were already licensed to use the software. Just because of some "estimated" or "virtual" losses, this guy is being sent to prison. How screwed up is our justice system?
Microsoft didn't bring up the case, and it's obvious from the guys own emails he was producing counterfeit discs to pass off as genuine for his own profit. If he were blatantly doing it, and not trying to deceive buyers, I would not feel as strongly as I do that he is trying to spin it differently now that he has been caught. If it weren't for profit, he could have spent his efforts publicizing the availability of genuine discs on his blog and elsewhere to get people to keep their old Windows machines. XP didn't officially end until April 2014, and he was doing this in 2012.
In the end, I think 15 years sentence is very harsh considering rapists get an average of 9.8 years, and only serve about 5.4 years.
Early morning, pre-coffee eyes. Thanks for the correction.
I still think 15 months is too much for what this is even if the guy did it for personal gain. He should have received a fine at most.
I had a similar feeling of the sentence being a bit much in the case of Mark Abene aka Phiber Optik [1] back in my NYC Echo Days (where is Stacy Horn nowadays?). Phiber Optik (Mark Abene)was sent to prison for the AT&T hack to be made an "example" of the "Hacker threat". He served 12 months.
I flagged this because the article isn't even trying to report in a neutral fashion and the site seems to be full of clickbait articles such as "Study: Non-Stick Pans Make Your Penis Smaller".
Yeah, this is an interesting story, but the article/ source is of poor quality, and appears to be heavilly biased based on info people are bringing up in comments.
In fact, the article appears to just be the LA times article (linked in the story) chopped up. Some verbatim, some paraphrased.
I didn't quite believe you about that headline until I saw it for myself. It's terrible, but also hilarious. I'd link it if it didn't make me feel dirty, but suffice to say it's definitely clickbait and the content doesn't live up to the title.
I don’t get most of the comments here, the content on the discs is supposed to be freely available from Microsoft. So what is this talk about windows copies?
43 comments
[ 5.2 ms ] story [ 87.0 ms ] threadexample of such an email:
https://1gew6o3qn6vx9kp3s42ge0y1-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-... (linked from below article)
https://blogs.microsoft.com/on-the-issues/2018/04/27/the-fac...
> “No normal company or buyer will notice such issues.” “Make me proud so that our business can grow and we can keep winning.”
> “There are tricks for bypassing customs with container’s & LTL but currently this is how I get these products without invoices past customs.”
> “If they call you just play stupid and tell them you ordered from an asset management broker overseas.”
> Lundgren made 28,000 of the discs and shipped them to a broker, who planned to sell them to computer refurbishing shops for about 25 cents each, so they could provide them to used-computer buyers.
> Microsoft’s lawyers valued the discs at $25 each and said they represent $700,000 in potential sales.
Firstly I think it's a harsh sentence (because copying isn't theft[0]), but secondly can anyone tell me why on earth he didn't just burn some Debian discs? (Perhaps with LXDE if it's really old computers.)
[0]: https://youtu.be/IeTybKL1pM4
Because Windows is what the typical American PC user expects and is familiar with.
Without the "American".
So I wonder why Lundgren has been going out of his way to face potential criminal prosecution, fines and jail time in order to provide what most people arguably might more familiar with? I don't get his cost/benefit analysis.
At our print studios we have one printer that works with Windows and not GNU/Linux and one where it's the other way around.
He wasn't always selling them for 25cents. There are documents from him where he's selling them for $20.
Ok, I think that may justify using the word "counterfeit" then.
> There are documents from him where he's selling them for $20.
The thing is, it would have been perfectly legal for him to sell Debian CDs for $20. That would still have made the old computers usable again. It's good to make use of old computers, but I think the implied argument of having to copy Windows recovery CDs to save old computers is nonsense.
The story just puzzles me. Maybe he didn't realise that you can sell free software[1]?
[1]: https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/selling.html
All of his protestation - "I was only selling them for cost" (a lie), and "I was trying to extend the life of computers" (linux would have done that, and the free downloads of Windows would have done that) - is the defence he tried to mount against the criminal charge.
That defence was rejected by the court.
>> Microsoft’s lawyers valued the discs at $25 each and said they represent $700,000 in potential sales.
Something doesn't match: on the Microsoft's page I get:
"one transaction alone generated $28,000 in revenue for Mr. Lundgren and his co-defendant from the sale of 8,000 discs."
Which means his revenue was $3.5 pro disc in that case.
Interestingly, in both cases the number 28,000 is specified.
What about the devices that Apple and Google are selling? (No endorsement implied)
he said the guy should be sued in civil court and be made to pay damages, rather than sent to prison by a criminal court
https://1gew6o3qn6vx9kp3s42ge0y1-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-...
Also [1]: > However, in essence, what Lundgren eventually pleaded guilty to was making these Dell refurbishers’ customers believe that they were obtaining a genuine Dell-branded "Reinstallation Disc" with Dell’s blessing, when in actuality, they weren’t.
P.S. I love how the downvotes pour in with no actual dissenting opinion :). Nowhere even in the guy's own emails can anyone find anything but mentions of profit, a ripe market, and basically doing his best to deceive customers by making the product look like a genuine Dell one (arranging for fake Microsoft and Dell labels to be applied to the discs). Nobody goes to such lengths to deceive their customers out of honesty and good intentions.
What he did is like recycling paper into freshly printed counterfeit banknotes. Real Robin Hood.
> “You would have to be an expert with a magnifying glass to know and/or see such differences.” [2]
> “If the software will be 98% accurate I believe I can get away with that.” [2]
[0] https://www.theverge.com/2018/4/27/17293650/microsoft-recycl...
[1] https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2018/04/why-the-man-who-...
[2] https://blogs.microsoft.com/on-the-issues/2018/04/27/the-fac...
You might as well argue that downloading the disk image through a third-party ISP is a counterfeit because the ISP is sending you bits labeled as coming from Microsoft on their own medium, and they are even profiting from it!
Also the guy himself expected the software on that "plastic" to be 98% accurate. Of course, none of the customers ever got to know that. Do you think the end users paid just 25c for them also? ;)
Since you have no problem with getting fakes without knowing in advance, how would you feel if the next time your parents give you allowance money they were "98% accurate" fakes?
No, a dollar bill that was not blessed by the FED does not fulfill the one and only function of a currency of being an accounting tool for people's economic contributions to society. A copy of a windows disc is functionally identical to a "genuine" windows disc.
> The least he could have done was tell the customers they are "replicas" or whatever.
Well, sure he could. But why should he, legal reasons aside? Should ISPs label all websites as "replicas" because you receive a copy made by the ISP?
> But he'd make less money.
So? Is it ethically wrong to do something that earns you more money?
> Also the guy himself expected the software on that "plastic" to be 98% accurate.
Source? In particular, what kind of inaccuracies are we talking about?
> Since you have no problem with getting fakes without knowing in advance, how would you feel if the next time your parents give you allowance money they were "98% accurate" fakes?
I have a problem with getting fakes without knowing in advance. I just don't subscribe to the idea that an identical copy of digital data is a fake.
B.S.
> a dollar bill
Actually that is not the purpose of money (maybe one of them). But we just agreed that if it's identical (or you know, at least 98% accurate) I can put someone else's "seal of approval" and be totally legit. You can't have it both ways.
The seller should be honest about what he's selling. You asking "why?" says a lot. The issue that was described pretty clearly for most people around here isn't the theft of software but the fact that the guy put MS and Dell labels on the physical object (the CD) without any legal right. Oh, if we "just" put the legal reasons aside sure, this is totally legit. Just like every other crime out there ;).
> Source? In particular, what kind of inaccuracies are we talking about?
Source? Try the links in my comment. It was in the guy's email, presented as evidence in court. Reading before replying helps make your comment a little more relevant. The first things that come to mind is that he used a very outdated image and subpar CD blanks to cut costs.
> I just don't subscribe to the idea that an identical copy of digital data is a fake.
There are people who don't subscribe to the idea that a woman should be allowed to change her mind during intercourse. There was already an agreement in place. Does this make them right? Back to out topic, the physical CD with fake labels is a fake, as was made very clear in the many official quotes I put in the comment. What if I put a Nike label on my fake a*s home-made shoes and sell them to you for $200? I'm innocent right? The shoes are my own creation and apparently I'm free to use someone else's name as I see fit. Legit. Law aside...
The "I reject your reality and substitute my own" argument doesn't make for a good defense argument in court or a good comment.
The "deceit" here is on the level of "rinse and repeat" instructions on shampoo bottles. The disks contained exactly what customers expected and the "deception" was only in the labeling of the disks. Just because the business seems a bit sleazy does not mean he deserves jail time.
Would a person selling you a fake dollar deserve jail time? Do you need more time to think about what you're saying?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_rootkit
The second major argument that you miss because nobody was next to you to read it aloud to you so you can catch it is that he went to prison for putting fake labels on a physical CD and claiming that object is an original. Most likely because of using an outdated copy of the software and low quality CD blanks (and manufacturing process) to cut costs.
Whether you feel safe or not is not the point. At least one person bought that CD at a price (NOT 25c) assuming it was original, "guaranteed" by Dell, and would not have paid the price knowing it's just a fake from a guy in his basement so to speak.
And if he wanted to "extend the life of electronics" he would have just given people direct links to the free downloads. But he didn't, he wanted to make money by breaking the law. I'm disturbed that this is so hard to understand for some people.
I can only assume none of you have ever achieved something worth using or stealing which is why it's hard to comprehend why someone stealing your name to put on their stolen copy is not cool.
https://blogs.microsoft.com/on-the-issues/2018/04/27/the-fac...
Microsoft didn't bring up the case, and it's obvious from the guys own emails he was producing counterfeit discs to pass off as genuine for his own profit. If he were blatantly doing it, and not trying to deceive buyers, I would not feel as strongly as I do that he is trying to spin it differently now that he has been caught. If it weren't for profit, he could have spent his efforts publicizing the availability of genuine discs on his blog and elsewhere to get people to keep their old Windows machines. XP didn't officially end until April 2014, and he was doing this in 2012.
In the end, I think 15 years sentence is very harsh considering rapists get an average of 9.8 years, and only serve about 5.4 years.
I still think 15 months is too much for what this is even if the guy did it for personal gain. He should have received a fine at most.
I had a similar feeling of the sentence being a bit much in the case of Mark Abene aka Phiber Optik [1] back in my NYC Echo Days (where is Stacy Horn nowadays?). Phiber Optik (Mark Abene)was sent to prison for the AT&T hack to be made an "example" of the "Hacker threat". He served 12 months.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Abene
In fact, the article appears to just be the LA times article (linked in the story) chopped up. Some verbatim, some paraphrased.
https://www.latimes.com/business/technology/la-fi-tn-microso...