Ask HN: How are you getting through (and back from) burning out?

212 points by leksak ↗ HN
Obviously, my tendency is to do what it is I did that got me here in a sense. I plan and I scheme. Maybe I should just be in the couch binge-watching Netflix, or double-down on physical exercise with the extra time on hand (not that I wasn't active before).

I'm really struggling to figure out what it is that I should be doing now to get back to wellness and then stay there so I was hoping it would help to read other people's experience.

Briefly, high-performance knowledge worker that places a lot of self-worth in the quality of his work and that subsequently spiraled as a work performance degraded as burn out symptoms started to set in that was caused by issues and events on multiple frontiers in life simultaneously. Some of those stressors remain, and are Intrinsic moreso than extrinsic and removing them doesn't really have a tangible timeline.

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I would recommend if your problem is overplanning, how have you responded to spontaniety? e.g. Attending figure drawing sessions where you don't know who you'll be sketching and the distinct and sudden social change around viewing nakedness. Or roller blading or dancing or jazz, all of which hold spontaneity or the appearance of such as part of the enjoyment of the activity.
I find this advice useful for breaking out of a slump, not for preventing burnout.

I have to take the opposite approach for burnout: cut things out. Do less. Cross things off the Todo list and _dont_ add a new one.

I find my biggest sources of stress are those little tasks that take you 10 hours, but would take someone else 1 hour. Constantly fighting against unknowns and feeling helpless leads to frustration and burnout.

You can do one or two things in life really, really well. If you're juggling too much, you'll be mediocre and never make try progress you need to find value and positive reinforcement through praise.

There's huge value in novelty seeking as parent pointed out, but I've always had to approach it from a "fill in the missing piece" point, not from "add this extra thing to my overworked life" point.

I was under the impression that "getting through/back from burnout" is when a burnout enters slump phase, which is what OP specified.
I really hated lifting weights for the first 30 years of my life, but I've come to enjoy it. Well, I mean, I still dislike doing it in the moment sometimes, but overall I enjoy it.

Aristotle said something like it's a shame to focus only on the mind, and not bring your body to its full potential. Modern psychology says exercise leads to greater sense of well-being.

This isn't a magic bullet that will make stressors go away. Those have to be dealt with as much as you can. But it's nice to focus on other things than work and this is something that I do outside of work and find helpful for the same reasons.

Exercise first thing every single day will do a person wonders. I prefer heavy weights and biking, but those are not the only ways to work out. I do think it needs to be at least 30 minutes of strenuous activity though.
Not sure if Aristotle said that but here are a couple of other quotes

“No citizen has a right to be an amateur in the matter of physical training…what a disgrace it is for a man to grow old without ever seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable.” - Socrates

“In order for man to succeed in life, God provided him with two means, education and physical activity. Not separately, one for the soul and the other for the body, but for the two together. With these two means, man can attain perfection.” - Plato. (I suspect this is a dodgy translation)

I've started a bullet journal, and I track things to do, habits, and mood. Crossing things off as done is silly rewarding, and it helps me be more aware about what's going on. No more, "what happened in January? I don't remember that month..."

Reading and writing has also helped. I've started up a small medium account for fun, and try to get through a book every few months.

Another big thing is finding a goal for the month and accomplishing it. This month is car repairs. Last month was getting the cat through his first vet visits. Next month will likely be spring cleaning.

All of this is little details. My friends and my church family are far more significant.

The easy: Drink more water. Stretch regularly.

The habits to change: Eat breakfast. Cherish loved ones.

The difficult: Empathize with your employer; understand how they (don't) value you. Contemplate the evanescence of your work; it will all someday fade away, and you must come to terms with this fact.

It's surprising to me that so many people recommend eating breakfast. There's no specific value add to eating early in the morning. There are tons of value adds to constraining the hours you eat during each day ("intermittent fasting"). Eat breakfast at your own risk:

https://priceonomics.com/how-breakfast-became-a-thing/

https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/is-skipping-breakfast-b...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_breakfast

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3680567/

https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/intermittent-fasting-sur...

Your other points are solid. I'd add regular exercise as well.

If you exercise first thing in the morning (like myself), I'd say breakfast is essential shortly afterward.
I exercise shortly after getting up 5 days a week. I don't eat food until hours later.

Depending on your exercise goals, you may want to eat before or after exercise but it certainly isn't essential.

https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/eating-before-or-after-...

Eh, for retaining muscle density & mass I'll defer to sports medicine tradition and what I learned from trained coaches there—

Healthline also posts articles saying it's important to eat right after exercise, so I gather they aren't speaking unilaterally in either case:

https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/eat-after-workout

Yea, I'm not trying to argue that eating right after exercise is not important. I just don't believe it's essential. Your body will use nutrients from the post-workout meal to help rebuild muscle and help your body recover so it's highly recommended. If muscle mass and density is a top priority than you may consider it essential for sure.
I lost over 100 pounds by reducing carbs and skipping breakfast. And I hardly miss it at all.
Depends what you are looking to get out of it, I never used to eat breakfast, maybe I was always just unsatisfied with it, but in a way I was unwittenly doing intermittent fasting. It certainly helped me maintain a healthy weight and I'm seemingly healthy by all metrics but for those that need the nutritional benefits to start an early morning and just feel good about getting up in the morning that's the real benefit when you have a routine to stick to.
Having a schedule and routine is massively important and can outweigh the benefits/detriments of other choices like whether or not you eat breakfast.

If you are going to eat breakfast, be wary of the stuff that's marketed as breakfast foods and cook with real ingredients.

Several years ago, I got over my burnout by changing my work environment. I left a demanding job with equally demanding coworkers for a job which I was slightly overqualified for with coworkers who appreciated me and what I do. Completing simple tasks that I could do quickly resulted in positive reinforcement which reconditioned my brain to associate work with positive outcomes. Getting things done felt good again.

There's a lot of different kinds of burnout, so this might not apply to every case, but going through this episode taught me the value of positive reinforcement.

I think the old adage "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" rings true here.

After you burn yourself out a couple of times you'll see it coming a mile away, so you dial it way back until you're all caught up on sleep and motivated to do good work again.

If it's already too late this time around use your PTO, detach from anything with a battery, and spend some time in nature.

For me, it was getting into martial arts. Quit my last job due to burn out, started martial arts a few weeks after and I reckon it is probably one of the best things I've done in my life.
Strick no work days. When I feel the early signs of burning out, I just do a weekend without working at all. Including checking emails or monitoring things.

It works only if you actually like what you do. You might have bigger issues that need to be addressed.

I took six months off last year after spending six and a half years at a startup, from beginning through acquisition and eventual decline. I went from front-end developer to director of engineering, and completely burned out by the end.

I read "Ego is the Enemy", which helped me a lot in identifying why I stayed so long in a position that was bad for me (I was addicted to the title). When I quit, I established all these rules on how I was going to spend my day: out by 9am, back no earlier than 6pm, walk all day, take photos, become a better person.

Terrible idea.

I'd substituted one form of stress (imposter syndrome) for another (impossible goals). Pretty quickly I realized my mistake and accepted I actually had some baggage I needed to let go.

For the first month, I let myself do nothing. I could sleep late, watch movies, walk, or do anything else as long as I wasn't pressuring myself to succeed. In doing so, I was able to jettison my identity (I was a DIRECTOR after all..yeesh), and begin to identify what I actually wanted in life. It took me a full month until one morning I woke up without dread.

After that day I set a simple good: take one good photo a day. I eased back into a creative lifestyle, making sure I enjoyed the work every step of the way. My wife, through quitting coffee, inspired me to build an app that helped track my lesser addictions: coffee, chocolate, sugar, gaming. Now I was being creative and improving myself.

Through all this I learned what I really wanted, what was hurting me in and out of work, and with this knowledge I was able to rebuild my persona into someone who was happy and energized.

tl;dr Take it slow, don't pressure yourself.

> "My wife, through quitting coffee, inspired me to build an app that helped track my lesser addictions: coffee, chocolate, sugar, gaming."

Can you please share more details about your app? Thanks in advance!

I quit the job that was causing my burnout, flew to Argentina, and spent some time hiking in Patagonia.

Worked remarkably well.

Some tips. Take things one at a time. Do them with all the attention. Have breaks in between. Spend time outside with loved ones. When you sleep, leave everything aside as if you enter a new world where nothing matters. If you cannot complete something today at the normal pace, do it the following day. Have a broader plan and idea, but keep inching towards it without fixing deadlines.
Oh, cool, thats all I needed to do? Awesome, so easy!

lol, good advice regardless. As with everything engineering related, this sounds good on paper... but when rubber meets the road...

One thing is to get married
My bet is that those "issues and events on multiple frontiers in life" came from that sort of area in the first place.
In a word, no. If one thinks that marriage will simplify life and reduce stresses, well, I have some bad news for you.

Don't get me wrong -- marriage is/can-be wonderful, but you owe it to your partner to bring your mentally-healthy self to the table, not to burden someone else with your problems because new challenges will result. Life is struggle, and having someone to lean on is wonderful.

I agree. Marriage brings new stresses, but you shouldn't think that someone else will fix you if you're broken.

I like what one of my coworkers said: Marriage can bring higher highs and lower lows, but the average is still better.

Of course, all of that is nullified if you both don't have the commitment and put in the effort to make it work.

I think little of the advice so far is that useful.

What happens when you burn out is that you engage in a unsustainable situation, often for some time, until the effect catches up with you. To not burn out again you need to regain the connection between e.g. working to much and a decrease in performance. You need the realization that engaging in this unsustainable situation will hurt you again.

Also burn out is often a nice way to say that you are essentially having mental health issues caused by the situation you are in. Not generally something to take lightly. And not something you want to experience repeatedly.

I haven't read it yet but "It Doesn't Have to Be Crazy at Work" might be a good start.

Two points. Burnout caused by other people taking away your control of your life can become a form of PTSD actually. Take care of yourself physically.

Second, more importantly, burnout comes from using willpower to do something you have no hope of success. Your brain is trying to stop wasting resources.

Problem is your brain isn’t so smart that it knows what is the problem so it stops anything closely related.

Take a break. A vacation. Do something fun and rewarding. Succeed at small things. Go back to work on smaller things you know will succeed. May require changing directions or jobs or careers but the change doesn’t have to be major. Just get back to success.

I'm no expert, let's get that out the way.

But first off, just let go. Don't plan on doing anything; you are sick. I get the impression you're lucky in that you've got only a mild case, I've had colleagues who had it quite badly and who couldn't physically get out of bed anymore - where even the idea of planning would knock them on their arse again.

Don't let it escalate any further. The first step is to accept that not doing anything is OK.

Do we really have to Ask HN this every few days?
It's almost as if the audience of this site participates in an incredibly toxic work culture and we're hearing regular cries for help from the victims of it.
Burnout is real. I was promoted from an entry level to senior level engineer in three years at one of the top tech companies. My compensation is great, and I’m saving heavily. Also, I’m exhausted. As in... I’m wondering what to do next with my life and work. Burn out is an understatement. I don’t talk to my spouse about this because this person has a lot of stuff to deal with, and my family relationships have wined down after they found out what I get paid and basically just wanted me to hand over everything because they believe they are entitled to it. So who do you turn to? It doesn’t solve my problems but it at least helps reading threads like this to see others perspectives.
Easy answer: therapists.

They're paid to listen to you and help you figure out your problems.

If you’re posting to the hiring thread it’s probably not a good idea to make comments like these...
It appears to be a very common problem so I guess the answer is yes.
I understand that it can be annoying to have the same question asked often. It is likely the effect of having a constant influx of new HN readers.

Perhaps if we closed the doors to new users we could solve this problem. I doubt we'll see much support for that solution, and justifiably so

Have you ever been sick and given up all sense of needing to be productive, and actually felt some relief from it? Try to tap into that attitude for a bit. Learn to listen to what you actually want instead of what you think you should be doing. Stoic philosophy is popular around here, and could probably help you out a lot. Consider seeing a qualified CBT therapist who specializes in OCD. Not saying you have OCD, but the same tendencies of obsession and perfection can lead to burn-out.
1. Sports

2. In a given team, never be the person who cares the most. Lots of power come from simply not caring so much. Only care deeply about things you're in a position to change.

3. Weed

Just like the other comments here I'd suggest focusing on mindset and health. For mindset, I'd recommend looking at stoicism such as with "A guide to the good life." In particular, the parts about accepting reality as it is, sort of like the serenity prayer. I like to think that I go into work with the mindset of giving 100% and should therefore not feel dejected by negative occurances. If I'm not fit for a task, that's ok, I'll either grow or I won't, but I can't expect myself to magically go beyond my full effort no more than I could grow beyond my height at that moment.

Also, health. It always seems to be just a little too imperceptive to really drive home how little things make a big impact. Sleep no less than 8 hours, eat no more than your recommended calories, be active for no less than 20 minutes (walking, cardio, strength, etc... ideally to your target heart rate), and foster strong relationships [1]. Additionally, try to understand what drives your behavior: why did X make me feel Y, and take control of that causation. Seek therapy and read into behavioral literature to better understand yourself.

[1] https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2017/04/over-nearly-8...

Can confirm that this book helps. I read "A guide to the good life" and practised stoicism at a time when my anxiety and stress levels were high. Very useful comment and it's great to be reminded of the book here.
Also, the book "Mindset".
I take a LOT of supplements. There are deficiencies in the nutritional benefits of food due to overfarming and other environmental factors. Burning out is NOT a normal state of being - in the past humans did not have the luxury of resting.

So why do we feel this now? Lack of nutrition. Try taking supplements and see how it changes things. YMMV and please check with your physician before changing your diet or taking any pills.

I’ll list stuff here if others show interest.

Please do
Absolutely! Again, please consult with a physician before taking any dietary supplements:

Magnesium Selenium Iodine Niagen CoQ10 Astralagus Zinc Turmeric Vitamin C

To name a few!

1. You may find it beneficial to talk to a third party that isn't a friend, member of family or colleague. Somebody that can be truly objective, has the skills to get to the bottom of your thinking patterns and most probably somebody that is paid to listen and apply their skills and experience.

If you can afford it, try some Cognitive Behavioural Therapy (CBT) sessions. They can help you to recognise and understand the thinking patterns that got you here in the first place. Once you recognise these patterns and their triggers, you should be able to head them off and drain them of their power before they become fully destructive again.

You may also discover that there are other deeper underlying causes to the behaviours which inform your relationship with work. Sometimes you need to deconstruct yourself and look at the foundations before you can rebuild.

Therapy can help you get a balanced perspective on your life and hopefully to re-frame the role that work plays in that.

2. As others have said: a good amount of physical exercise also helps. Try running, swimming or cycling / mountain biking. I've been there and I cannot stress enough that physical wellness has a significant positive effect upon mental wellness.

3. Practice Mindfullness. If you don't know what that means, then now is the time to investigate.

Wishing you well. You can do it!

Consider traveling somewhere far for 2-3 weeks. Leave the phone at home.

For me, traveling resets my anxiety to zero. It reminds me there is so much more to life than “work,” and lets me enjoy those things: nature, natural wonders, cultures, languages, food, arts, ...

Long runs.

Before a long run my mind cycles through what I need to do at work, at home, for my aging parent. I just get trapped thinking through this laundry list of worries.

After a long run my mind is different. I need calories. I need a shower. I want to do something outdoorsy with my kids.

Take a step back and figure out what you really care about and be humble.

You may find that you are placing alot of attention on things that ultimately don't matter. When I've been in tough times, 8/10 times I've put blinders on and tried to fix everything except what is broken for me. It's a cycle that you have to break!

There's a reason why pride is in religious tradition the cardinal sin thats the root to all others, it blinds you to all sorts of things -- you start believing your own bullshit.

I am focusing on one day at a time, one week at a time. Seeing a psychotherapist and attending various groups when I have the energy.

Burnout for me is a deeply physical experience of contant tension and utter exhaustion, with mental overwhelm and low stress-tolerance. So I find that I have to take things on the moment-by-moment level to see what I'm good for, and give myself permission to cancel everything if need be.

I'm also taking small, but practical and tangible steps towards a difficult life transition and health goal. Each step I take (there have been many) has lifted a bit of weight off me and put wind in my sails, because I've been on the fence about it for so long. I really enjoy and appreciate these 'small wins'.

Even on that personal journey side of things, I am not planning much, if anything, beyond the next day or two at a time (even while I have longer-term projects I am working on).

I have put my business on indefinite 'tickover', servicing existing clients but not doing any work of expansion at this stage. I have communicated with all staff about that as well and let them know that I am not available for any kind of meetings, calls or creative work.

I have 'uncommitted' from various projects (whether personal or shared/group) for which the ball was in my court. This alone gave me a lot of headspace to move forward in other ways.

I'm sleeping a lot, mostly at night, with some daytime naps. I've been enjoying playing RuneScape again, spending time tidying up and decluttering at home, sitting in cafes, going for short walks, doing self-care stuff.

People say to read books, but part of my burnout was information overwhelm. The one book that's been helping me a lot is Essentialism by Greg McKeown. GTD is also helpful but only when I have the energy to follow its guidelines.

For me the trick is to just really not expect anything much of myself for now. It's also Winter where I am, so I can call it hibernation, which helps.

One general thing that has really helped is being honest about where I am at, coming out to other people about it, and treating this burned-out stage of life as seriously as if I had pneumonia. Treating it as a friend rather than an enemy.

Hope this helps.