Great advice for a boxing or MMA match. For barfights:
A) Don't.
B) Swing first, while the guy's still jawing at you and before he thinks you'll actually do it. Don't threaten to punch someone or step outside, just punch them. A sucker punch is by far the best way to hit someone square in the jaw.
C) Keep hitting him. Contrary to the article, there's one great time to kick someone in a fight, it's while they're down.
E) Get enough space between you and your adversary to get away.
To put it another way, if you have the upper hand then you're at risk of permanently injuring them if the fight continues. If they have the upper hand then you're at risk of being permanently injured. The best way to avoid this is to get away.
Absolutely. Furthermore - if you have the upper hand and can get away, then you are most likely committing a criminal offence by not doing so. The law doesn't recognise the idea that you have the right to lay into someone for being an asshole, or even for breaking your nose. If you can get away and don't, then you are at risk of prosecution.
E] Pick up a chair and break it on their skull, kick them in the groin, gouge eyes, go for the throat, stomp head, whatever it takes to make them go down and stay down.
You could be seriously hurt/killed in a fight, so don't give the other guy the opportunity to do it to you. If you're not willing to go that far, you shouldn't be fighting.
If you can cause them to realize that this is not a game and you're not two kids slapping each other, and that this is a situation that could
Which action movie did you just walk in from? If you progress from bar fight to attempted murder like this what happens is people pull you off the guy, the police come, you get arrested. That's if you're lucky.
I guess we live in different places and people from different places approach things differently. I don't get in fights any more because I don't particularly feel like being hospitalized again, and some of my acquaintances are dead.
If I have a choice, I walk away. But if I stay, the reason must be good enough for me to go hard instead of going home.
The only place I've ever seen a fight broken up was at school, and even then, rarely. Teachers don't want to get hurt over nothing. So much for "people pull you off the guy".
My point was just that, you can technically be killed with a single hit. Don't approach fights like you will be fine. Don't assume people will pull the guy off you. Your life is at risk regardless of how mundane it may seem. Take it seriously.
While I'm lecturing, take driving your car seriously too. Flying down the road in a metal box surrounded by people who aren't paying attention isn't safe either. :P
I'm curious about this advice. It makes sense in a kill-or-be-killed scenario, but it seems like the people who habitually start fights want to hurt and humiliate somebody, establish their superiority, and feel like a badass, not kill or maim somebody. They have some (however strange) idea of what's acceptable violence and what's dirty. If you seriously gouge a guy's eyes but don't win the fight, his objective might change from beating you down to seriously hurting you in retaliation for your transgression. In a "social" fight where a guy thinks he is restoring his slighted masculinity or enforcing his idea of the proper order of the universe, I would think the better odds offered by fighting dirty would be outweighed by the possibly much worse outcome if you lose. Granted, you can get killed or seriously injured in any kind of fight, but why make it more likely?
I'm not sure why you're voted negative for this. There are appropriate contexts for a restrained fight, to be sure: this advice may not be appropriate for an "honorable" bar-fight or a friend who's on meth. But this is similar to the techniques I'd use for self-defense in a desperate situation. The context of the article is that both diplomacy and escape have failed. Priority #1 is self-preservation.
If you're a young woman walking to her car and a man wearing a hood comes running up, yeah, use the pepper spray. Pick up a brick. Grab your keys between your fingers and go for the eyes. Attack the eyes, groin, knees, throat, fingers, and arch of the foot, and yell for help the whole time. The instant you can move faster than he can, get out of there and call 911.
I've been in a number of bar fights, and I find that kicks to the legs work wonders. Of course, I train in mixed martial arts, and if poorly delivered, I agree, kicks are generally a losing proposition if you don't know what you're doing. The risk vs. reward is high -- also, if you're not in great shape, it takes much more energy (depleting stamina) to throw a kick than it does a punch.
The only other major correction I just had to point out (to the article, not the parent who is basically right) is that while they do mention to circle, they don't specify where to. You should usually be circling to their 'weak' side, which is the shortest path toward their back -- for a southpaw, this is to their right, for a right-handed fighter, it's to their left (or counter-clockwise around them).
>I've been in a number of bar fights, and I find that kicks to the legs work wonders. Of course, I train in mixed martial arts
Lol. That's like saying "the best way to win a game of street ball is to just hit three pointers all the time. Oh yeah. I played college BBall for UCLA"...
That was a poorly tacked together sentence. I don't think I've been in any bar fights since I started training in MMA.
Furthermore, when I said 'leg', I really meant knee.
However, I'd say that most of what they're teaching in the article is effectively useless without practicing it all, a bunch. The hardest part about getting in a fight, if you don't train for it, is not resorting to your basic instincts. For some, that is to swing wildly. For others, it might be running for the nearest exit.
So yeah, a short kick to the knee is pretty good, especially if it's the first thing you do. You'll have time to think about it, and you aren't as likely to lose balance as you might doing a more complicated kick.
Heh. I'm just saying, for people who do train in martial arts, it's hard to say how well a technique works for someone completely untrained.
I like to parry someone's punch and either Deashi Harai or if they come in to tackle, darce them. That doesn't help most people though.
Maybe it's better to say don't get in fights, but if you're worried about getting in fights, train martial arts, and even then, don't get in fights. :-)
My point was, and my apologies for not having stated it clearly, that a swift kick to the knee is a good option for untalented fighters looking to end things quickly with a minimal effort, minimal talent requirement, and doesn't really subject the kicker to much danger.
That said, I wholly agree with the "don't get in fights" mantra, however, there truly are times where it's unavoidable, no matter how much I wish it weren't.
Heh. I'm just saying, for people who do train in martial arts, it's hard to say how well a technique works for someone completely untrained.
Speaking as someone who dabbled and took some classes, I don't think I've ever seen a novice execute anything worthy of the term "technique" correctly the first time they tried it (in the sense of "correctly enough that they were ready to try it on a resisting opponent.") Everything feels a little different than it looks. Whereas I did occasionally see competitive judo brown belts improvise a throw for ippon, turn to their coach with a big grin, and say, "What's THAT called?" Experience makes a huge difference. If you're a normal person and end up in a bar fight, it's probably because the other person is a chronically belligerent person with a lot of experience hitting people -- oh well! Unless he's drunker than you, you've got him physically outclassed, or you get very lucky, or more likely all three, you're going to get your ass kicked! (If you're a completely untrained person, that is.)
This is about the best advice out there. I got glassed in a barfight in Sydney once and the cat who did it knew what he was doing—snuck up behind me, shouted, glassed, kicked me a few times, and ran out the door. Fucking English backpackers.
Anyway, the key is almost always surprise and making sure you finish the job to the point that you know you can escape without giving the guy a chance to get a shot at you.
//edit:
Just reread the article, and if you're facing two people DON'T fucking get into a corner. Move around so that one of them is blocking the other as much as possible and they can't both get to you. And stay the fuck off the ground.
I hope glassed doesn't mean you had a pintglass broken over your head/face. If so, glad you're ok, hope you didn't need surgery or anything.
This stuff is no joke -- friend of a friend got killed in a barfight in southie once.. guy was one of those typical "its friday night, lets go pick a fight" guys, picked a fight with the wrong maniac. Knifer went to jail afterwards but that didn't really matter to the guy who was dead.
Yup, it was a pint. I have a wicked scar over my left eye as a memento. I had to get stitches but I'm an Aussie citizen so I didn't have to pay for the ER. That said, try hailing a cab at 9:00am in Sydney with a busted hand (I caught up with him later, it's a long story) facial stitches, and a shirt covered in blood.
But yeah, fighting is an incredibly bad idea. Sorry to hear about your mate, that sucks.
//edit:
This is a photo of me just after I got home that morning:
Don't hit someone first. If you do, that's assault. It's only self-defense if they try to hit you first.
Don't hit someone on the jaw. You'll hurt your hand and stun him very temporarily, if you don't just glance off - it's a stupid thing to do. If you absolutely must hit a man in the face, then hit him on the nose. You won't cause a lot of serious damage to him, you won't hurt your hand and his eyes will water so much that you can run away. Better is to hit him in the stomach as you run past him to the exit. Even better is to run past him to the exit without hitting him. Best is not to be so fucking stupid that you get into a fight in a bar in the first place. SO a stranger insults you - is your ego really so fragile that you give a shit?
Don't kick someone while they're down. That's assault. They are unable to be aggressive to you while they are on the floor; if you hit them in that situation, you are at fault. If the bar has CCTV and people there can find you, you will be prosecuted and go to jail for malicious assault. If not, then you're still at fault. You don't wear spandex and you're not a superhero; your job is not to go around bars being a vigilante to assholes. If he's on the ground already, then just walk away.
You got it right with D) again.
Aside from A) and D), the rest of your post reads like a super-aggressive teenager who lacks experience, or someone who got continually picked on and harbours revenge fantasies - "Why, if I ever see that guy again...".
If you go around getting into fights in bars, it doesn't matter how prepared or how fit or how fast you are. Eventually you'll make a mistake or meet someone better prepared, faster or fitter and end up in hospital, or dead. It's a really fucking stupid thing to do.
Obviously you don't fight if you can avoid it. 2 of the 4 sentences in my post were about that, I dunno where you got off thinking I'm hyper aggressive and need a lecture about violence not solving anything.
If you're in a situation where you think you have to fight, yes, you sucker punch the guy while he's leaning into you yelling stuff, hit him again if he's still on his feet, and then get the hell out of there. You don't read articles about how to win a boxing match. The comments about kicking were mostly a joke on the article.
I agree with all you've said except that you should never ever do A it all depends on the situation.
A fight doesn't last all that long when it gets to punches. Chances are if he throws the first punch and connect, it will be over. If the fight is unavoidable and will happen for sure (the other is really just there looking for a fight, you're getting mugged, you can't flee etc.), you better get your opponent out of condition asap and get away.
It's a manual for hand-to-hand combat, as taught to British Commandos & other special forces during WWII.
Something to bear in mind: if you strike someone, he might die.
I read of a chap who hit someone in a bar fight; that someone fell over, struck his head on a counter-top and died later that night. The person who threw the punch was aiming for a career in law enforcement; that dream ended for him that night.
Of course this goes both ways, which is why you should take _any_ threat of physical violence _very_ seriously.
That goes to show that if anybody lays their hand on you in a threatening manner in places like bars, you have the duty to protect yourself and those you care for around you.
Just be prepared TO take a life of someone else who is ready to do the same to you. Or better yet, learn to mitigate these situations by not pubcrawling.
Gabe Suarez (don't know him personally, haven't trained with him, just read some of his stuff) was always fond of telling people to avoid the 'three stupids'.
Don't hang out with stupid people. Don't do stupid things. Don't go to stupid places.
Do that, wear a seatbelt (or a helmet if you ride) & you're 99.99% of the way to a safe life.
I apologise. I was uhmming and ahhing about whether or not to post it. I felt that whether or not it's genuinely a HN-type discussion, particularly the on-topicness of it.
In the end I went for it for two reasons. Firstly I'd say it's arguably on-topic at the moment, given that the top comments still have comments from the other thread. I think a couple of weeks from now and it wouldn't be, but while it's fresh in people's minds who participated in the original discussion, I felt it was a well written piece that gave some good advice (and perhaps some not so good advice for all situations).
If you had to reduce it to a sentence, the answer might be: anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity.
The discussions on the original thread talked a lot about what people would/did do, but a lot of people didn't seem to understand the risks as an adult. I felt that people would enjoy this, but that some wouldn't.
So I apologise to those that don't like it for posting it - I understand entirely where you're coming from, but I posted it for those that took part in the previous discussion. Hopefully it'll run it's course and we can all go back to talking about Erlang again.
B)Don't think (harder than you'd imagine). Thinking leads to calculating, which leads to hesitation, even in the best. In fact good fighters become great by going on instinct rather than conscious decisions.
C)Go bleeping crazy. He's trying to inflict real harm on you- looking cool/honorable is for movies. Go for the eyes, nose and groin; that's actually Bruce Lee 101 -- fast, and to the critical areas. Become an animal. Disable (psychologically or physically) them as quickly as possible.
D)Run away. Fast. No one comes to a bar alone, and there will likely be "vigilantes" anyway. High tail it ASAP, and throw come courtesy cash to the bar/host.
E)If you're losing from the beginning in any way, you're not going to pull a comeback. This isn't Rocky. Break away and get out ASAP. See D.
> C)Go bleeping crazy. He's trying to inflict real harm on you- looking cool/honorable is for movies. Go for the eyes, nose and groin; that's actually Bruce Lee 101 -- fast, and to the critical areas. Become an animal. Disable (psychologically or physically) them as quickly as possible.
I'd like to note, I got out of several fights in highschool by simply laughing when I got hit. It disconcerts people when you act unexpectedly.
Also;
F) If there's no way out, grab a weapon. In the movies, getting hit over the head with a beer bottle is nothing more than an inconvenience, however in reality it'll either give a concussion or, as happened recently in my area, cause multiple fractures to the skull.
When you're in a fight, assume they're trying to kill you. Respond accordingly. If you almost kill someone, who cares as long as you didn't start the fight. Don't get caught, don't leave a business card. If the cops come, you get a lawyer and claim self defense. At least you're alive and okay.
This post talks a lot about stance and how to throw a punch, and it does mention grappling but if you're talking about your standard bar fight then I think grappling is where everything happens. How often have you seen a bar fight where two people circled each other, jabbing and feinting like a boxing match? More often than not they grapple messily, go to the ground, flail around some more at each other, and then their friends break them up.
I wrestled (scholastic wrestling) in high school and college, and that experience has helped me tremendously in whatever bar scuffles I've ended up with. If anyone did want actual advice on how to win a bar fight, the first thing I'd suggest is they take lessons in something like freestyle wrestling or judo. If you can handle yourself in close quarters, you can negate a lot of what a bigger or stronger opponent could do.
One more thing, since I see some people advocating "just knock him out with a 2x4 while he's still jawing at you" -- as I almost learned the hard way in college, if you throw the first punch, that's assault. It's very tempting when some idiot is jawing at you to just end things before they start, but then he could call the cops and press charges and you'll have a huge legal hassle to deal with for the next year. Once he swings at you, retaliation is self-defense and it's fair game.
My wife went to high school with a big, nice guy who got in a fight in his senior year. He connected to the other guy's jaw. The other guy fell, hit his head, and later died. A manslaughter charge was the least of his problems; the guilt was worse.
Turn the other cheek. Avoid sustained eye contact with drunk men in bars. Drive courteously.
That kind of fluke thing could have just have easily have happened to the 'nice guy', and he would be the dead one right now. Its not clear who in your story was the aggressor, but there is no shame in defending yourself. And of course, violence is always the last option.
The first sentence of my reply was in the hypothetical world posed by the previous message. As to the actual fight, I don't know who started the fight, or who had pure motives. The judgement of 'nice' is more to indicate that we are not talking about 'badass' guys who made a habit of fighting.
Don't forget the story of Nick D'Arcy. Never heard of him? I'm not surprised. He's an Australian swimmer and holder of the Australian 200m Butterfly record. He was supposed to take it to Michael Phelps at the 2008 Olympics, where he had a realistic chance of winning Gold or Silver.
Unfortunately for him, he got drunk at the party celebrating his inclusion in the 2008 Olympic squad. He took offense with another (retired gold medallist) swimmer at the party and punched him, shattering his jaw and skull.
D'Arcy was charged with Assualt, and convicted, receiving a suspended jail sentence. He was stripped of his place in the 2008 Olympics and 2009 World Championships and is unlikely to make it to the 2012 London Olympics based on poor form and a lingering failed drug test outcome.
All because he got drunk and decided to hit someone, probably 5-10 years of preparation and work down the drain, a promising career and future financial success all destroyed. No sporting company will touch him for endorsements, even if he does succeed again.
- 3 guys, i'm sober and scared as sh!t, trying to not let them close in, finally see a chance and put all my fear into mavashi gari into the jaw of the central guy, the leader. I'm fortunate enough to get him knocked down, the others 2 stop attacking me.
- 7 guys, i'm absolutely drunk and have no doubts that i would easily take them on. Quickly closing in, delivering a straight right to one (this one is down), a jab to another (stepped back). Next moment the punches and kicks of the rest of the team reach me. It just blows me away, something gets into my legs from behind and i'm down. The kicks continue and continue without interruption. Assume fetal position ...
there is only one character in Russian, which would mark either "V" style sound - "veterany" or "W" - "dvor". In most cases direct transliteration from Russian to English uses "V" character for that Russian character, even though it may sound more like "W".
1) Don't use a fist. I recommend the shotgun, but if you've got enough distance, you might as well use the rocket launcher.
2) Watch lots of MMA fights. They perfectly model brawls. If it ever happens that two people gang up on you, call the referee and make sure the cameraman sees your outrage.
3) If you repeatedly get beat up, I recommend getting a fighter level. Yes, you might miss out on caster progression, but you can't really enjoy your Meteor Swarm while curled up on the tavern floor.
As a guy who's been training boxing for a year or so I can safely say his guard stance makes no sense. Not even in Irish boxing, which is basically what a barfight is.
Your strong arm should be your back arm, that way you can rotate your whole body when you punch and put a lot more weight into it.
How can you train for boxing for a year and not know how a southpaw stands? I would seriously consider changing where your training, because any competitive fight against a southpaw and you'll be slaughtered if you're not trained for it. Given that 10% of people are lefties, it won't be many fights before you face one.
If you're not trained for a southpaw, you're not trained. The rules, the tactics, everything is pointless. You watch for hits from the wrong side, you throw hits to the wrong side, you block wrong, you dodge wrong.
It's not fun. It sucks a great deal. Some people get the hang of it better than others, but generally speaking, it's a very awkward (and painful) learning curve.
A southpaw is more than twice as likely to win a fight (or at least 1/2 as likely to lose based on the stats), perhaps it would be better to learn to fight southpaw than learn to fight a southpaw.
> Results: Left-handed boxers had been involved in 75–800 fights (mean 120.6), with 5–79 lost (mean 19.32). A similar evaluation was made for the right-handed boxers. The right-handed boxers had been involved in 50–820 fights (mean 127. 8), with 23–78 lost (mean 42.25). Left-handed boxers were found to be more successful than right-handed ones. The difference between them was found to be significant (p<0.01).
I do boxing training as a way of keeping fit (some sparring but no 'serious' boxing i.e. competition.) I'm a southpaw, and I stand like a right hander. If I can catch my opponent with a left, it's beautiful. It's a real ace in the hole.
As electromagnetic points out, he's a Southpaw, which explains the wrong hands being forward.
That aside, I agree his guard is shit. His hands should be closer to his chin, and not nearly as far floating out in space. No boxing instructor would let him stand like this. No Muay Thai instructor would either. I can't speak to Krav Maga or any other arts, but yeah, it's rough.
You're probably going to forget everything you read in this article in a month unless you review it on a regular basis, and if you're going to go to that much effort, you might as well sign up for a real class and get some experience throwing another person's body around!
If you don't want to spend time learning and practicing fighting techniques, but you're worried about how you'll fare in a fight, add this to the long list of reasons to keep yourself strong and well-conditioned. Technique is a strength multiplier, and you don't have any technique. An experienced fighter is a wonder of efficency and minimal effort; you won't be. It's amazing how fast you can get tired in a situation where you're going all out (and it's a bad idea to work any less hard than the other guy -- that's another strategy that's only for people who practice and have real skill!)
It's amazing how fast you can get tired in a situation where you're going all out
This is a point that gets overlooked far too often. I have seen plenty of people in peak physical fitness run out of steam after 2 to 3 minutes.
What most people forget is that as well as physical exertion your body releases a massive amount of adrenaline the second a punch is thrown and that wipes you out. It's called an adrenaline dump and it honestly feels like your legs have turned to jelly and you feel like you have zero power behind your punches.
I always think its funny when a bunch of nerds start talking about how to win a fight. I say that as a nerd who got beat up and pushed around a lot in elementary up through high school. Once I could afford it I made it a point to study self defense, not so that I could fight, but so I at least had the confidence to know how to handle myself.
Learning to fight for its own sake is dumb if your plan is to do it outside of a structured sporting event. Keep in mind I don't mean self defense. Most people won't get into a fight unless they feel extremely confident about winning. That could mean they are much bigger, well trained, armed, have lots of friends, etc. If you don't know how to defend yourself, you probably won't figure it out in the time it takes someone to punch you. The best defense is to know when to get out.
Just had a big confrontation with someone at a bar? The time to leave is NOW (before he comes back with friends, a bottle to the back of the head, finds you stumbling out drunk, etc). During that confrontation? Keep your hands up and the other person away from you - pretty much the same stance as if you were going to throw a punch but with your hands open. Don't turn your back to someone who is aggressive - back away slowly.
If worse comes to worse you won't remember any techniques you read here or elsewhere unless you've practiced them A LOT. Just try and remember that while there are no rules you shouldn't try to escalate a fight any more than you need to in order to get away. What I mean by this is if someone shoves you, just walk away. IF you throw a punch then they throw a punch, etc. You hit a guy and he goes down? Great, now leave. Start kicking him now and maybe his 2 or 3 friends decide it's a good time to jump in instead of helping their friend up. Don't escalate a situation unnecessarily.
If you want more than this - go take Krav Maga classes for a year or two - then you'll at least (hopefully) be able to throw a decent punch without hurting yourself.
This isn't the movies. There are no "cool moves". If you have never done it before, striking another person is emotionally difficult. Your biggest problems are fear, self-doubt and above all, hesitation. Make each blow count. If you swing, do it with the intention of ending the fight with the one hit. Most likely your first swing will be half-strength as your mind deals with the shock of the situation, your own moral issues, fear etc. Either run away or end the fight as fast as possible.
Ps.. I've never been in a fight. Never been bullied. Don't go to bars and don't drink. So what do I know. But this has always seemed liked the best advice.
Last time I had a physical confrontation at a bar, the first thing the guy did is make sure I could see a handgun behind his belt. Needless to say I walked away immediately.
Avoid this crap at all costs. Not worth dying over.
Premise: "There is a phenomenon out there that I call "Violence Geeks." They are a group of individuals who are fixated on the 'idea' of violence.' At the same time, they are terrified of being victims of actual violence. They are an ugly blend of anger, aggressiveness, self-loathing, fear and paranoia. On the plus side, their fear keeps them in check. On the negative side, they are a case of mens rea addressed "To whom it may concern.""
I'm posting this because I used to fall squarely into that category myself. Several years and a few reality checks later, I don't.
But if you read that headline and thought "wow, I must read that" then I'd also have a serious read of the Violence Geeks article and try to work out whether it applies, even in part, to you.
In addition, look at the following causes of death in the USA: http://www.the-eggman.com/writings/death_stats.html (note that AFAICT deaths due to firearms includes negligent discharges & suicides.) You'll note that that table doesn't include 'violence done by strangers.'
If you enjoy martial arts, shooting, etc. in and of themselves, then go right ahead and train. Otherwise, you are probably acting irrationally by investing a lot of time and money in training.
I am glad you posted this. Most of the site should be required reading for you if you give any thought to self defense. Particularly "How NOT to get shot" and "What is Self-Defense."
Possibly the most important point it makes is how easy it is to go too far and become the aggressor once you are in a violent conflict. Or to inflame that conflict to begin with.
"The real problem is that -- once the emotions have died down -- you may have to face the fact that your actions and words were part of the creation and escalation of the situation. And they might have been an overreaction on your part."
Having been in a hospital due to an accident, I would never want to put anyone else in there.
And if I was put there by someone else, I would probably have been obsessed with getting back at them.
So to "win" actually just means to "shift trauma around for a while".
I mean, just look at how popular this article is at the moment. There is a lot of latent resentment from being on the receiving end of violence. If you're on the end that's dishing it out, you're just putting other people where you used to be. And you know how that feels.
Also keep in mind that reading an article on fighting makes you about as good at fighting as reading an article on surgery makes you a surgeon. You're liable to make things even worse. If you REALLY want to know how to fight, practice some martial art that takes streetfighting seriously. It's remarkably easy to lose an eye or a testicle.
Additionally, you can't afford to trade 1-for-1 with a drunken asshole. It's like defensive driving -- some people are set on eventually making themselves smoking corpses in a burning wreck, so it's better to get out of the asshole's way than be that other party in the burning wreck.
Getting away from a bad situation IS self-defense.
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[ 5.2 ms ] story [ 149 ms ] threadA) Don't.
B) Swing first, while the guy's still jawing at you and before he thinks you'll actually do it. Don't threaten to punch someone or step outside, just punch them. A sucker punch is by far the best way to hit someone square in the jaw.
C) Keep hitting him. Contrary to the article, there's one great time to kick someone in a fight, it's while they're down.
D) Again, seriously, don't.
E) Get enough space between you and your adversary to get away.
To put it another way, if you have the upper hand then you're at risk of permanently injuring them if the fight continues. If they have the upper hand then you're at risk of being permanently injured. The best way to avoid this is to get away.
You could be seriously hurt/killed in a fight, so don't give the other guy the opportunity to do it to you. If you're not willing to go that far, you shouldn't be fighting.
If you can cause them to realize that this is not a game and you're not two kids slapping each other, and that this is a situation that could
1] get them killed
and
2] be avoided
they might give it a second thought.
If I have a choice, I walk away. But if I stay, the reason must be good enough for me to go hard instead of going home.
The only place I've ever seen a fight broken up was at school, and even then, rarely. Teachers don't want to get hurt over nothing. So much for "people pull you off the guy".
My point was just that, you can technically be killed with a single hit. Don't approach fights like you will be fine. Don't assume people will pull the guy off you. Your life is at risk regardless of how mundane it may seem. Take it seriously.
While I'm lecturing, take driving your car seriously too. Flying down the road in a metal box surrounded by people who aren't paying attention isn't safe either. :P
Does that make sense?
If you're a young woman walking to her car and a man wearing a hood comes running up, yeah, use the pepper spray. Pick up a brick. Grab your keys between your fingers and go for the eyes. Attack the eyes, groin, knees, throat, fingers, and arch of the foot, and yell for help the whole time. The instant you can move faster than he can, get out of there and call 911.
The only other major correction I just had to point out (to the article, not the parent who is basically right) is that while they do mention to circle, they don't specify where to. You should usually be circling to their 'weak' side, which is the shortest path toward their back -- for a southpaw, this is to their right, for a right-handed fighter, it's to their left (or counter-clockwise around them).
Lol. That's like saying "the best way to win a game of street ball is to just hit three pointers all the time. Oh yeah. I played college BBall for UCLA"...
Furthermore, when I said 'leg', I really meant knee.
However, I'd say that most of what they're teaching in the article is effectively useless without practicing it all, a bunch. The hardest part about getting in a fight, if you don't train for it, is not resorting to your basic instincts. For some, that is to swing wildly. For others, it might be running for the nearest exit.
So yeah, a short kick to the knee is pretty good, especially if it's the first thing you do. You'll have time to think about it, and you aren't as likely to lose balance as you might doing a more complicated kick.
I like to parry someone's punch and either Deashi Harai or if they come in to tackle, darce them. That doesn't help most people though.
Maybe it's better to say don't get in fights, but if you're worried about getting in fights, train martial arts, and even then, don't get in fights. :-)
My point was, and my apologies for not having stated it clearly, that a swift kick to the knee is a good option for untalented fighters looking to end things quickly with a minimal effort, minimal talent requirement, and doesn't really subject the kicker to much danger.
That said, I wholly agree with the "don't get in fights" mantra, however, there truly are times where it's unavoidable, no matter how much I wish it weren't.
Speaking as someone who dabbled and took some classes, I don't think I've ever seen a novice execute anything worthy of the term "technique" correctly the first time they tried it (in the sense of "correctly enough that they were ready to try it on a resisting opponent.") Everything feels a little different than it looks. Whereas I did occasionally see competitive judo brown belts improvise a throw for ippon, turn to their coach with a big grin, and say, "What's THAT called?" Experience makes a huge difference. If you're a normal person and end up in a bar fight, it's probably because the other person is a chronically belligerent person with a lot of experience hitting people -- oh well! Unless he's drunker than you, you've got him physically outclassed, or you get very lucky, or more likely all three, you're going to get your ass kicked! (If you're a completely untrained person, that is.)
Anyway, the key is almost always surprise and making sure you finish the job to the point that you know you can escape without giving the guy a chance to get a shot at you.
//edit:
Just reread the article, and if you're facing two people DON'T fucking get into a corner. Move around so that one of them is blocking the other as much as possible and they can't both get to you. And stay the fuck off the ground.
This stuff is no joke -- friend of a friend got killed in a barfight in southie once.. guy was one of those typical "its friday night, lets go pick a fight" guys, picked a fight with the wrong maniac. Knifer went to jail afterwards but that didn't really matter to the guy who was dead.
But yeah, fighting is an incredibly bad idea. Sorry to hear about your mate, that sucks.
//edit: This is a photo of me just after I got home that morning:
http://droppingbombsonyourmom.com/photos/banged-up.jpg
Don't hit someone first. If you do, that's assault. It's only self-defense if they try to hit you first.
Don't hit someone on the jaw. You'll hurt your hand and stun him very temporarily, if you don't just glance off - it's a stupid thing to do. If you absolutely must hit a man in the face, then hit him on the nose. You won't cause a lot of serious damage to him, you won't hurt your hand and his eyes will water so much that you can run away. Better is to hit him in the stomach as you run past him to the exit. Even better is to run past him to the exit without hitting him. Best is not to be so fucking stupid that you get into a fight in a bar in the first place. SO a stranger insults you - is your ego really so fragile that you give a shit?
Don't kick someone while they're down. That's assault. They are unable to be aggressive to you while they are on the floor; if you hit them in that situation, you are at fault. If the bar has CCTV and people there can find you, you will be prosecuted and go to jail for malicious assault. If not, then you're still at fault. You don't wear spandex and you're not a superhero; your job is not to go around bars being a vigilante to assholes. If he's on the ground already, then just walk away.
You got it right with D) again.
Aside from A) and D), the rest of your post reads like a super-aggressive teenager who lacks experience, or someone who got continually picked on and harbours revenge fantasies - "Why, if I ever see that guy again...".
If you go around getting into fights in bars, it doesn't matter how prepared or how fit or how fast you are. Eventually you'll make a mistake or meet someone better prepared, faster or fitter and end up in hospital, or dead. It's a really fucking stupid thing to do.
If you're in a situation where you think you have to fight, yes, you sucker punch the guy while he's leaning into you yelling stuff, hit him again if he's still on his feet, and then get the hell out of there. You don't read articles about how to win a boxing match. The comments about kicking were mostly a joke on the article.
A fight doesn't last all that long when it gets to punches. Chances are if he throws the first punch and connect, it will be over. If the fight is unavoidable and will happen for sure (the other is really just there looking for a fight, you're getting mugged, you can't flee etc.), you better get your opponent out of condition asap and get away.
It's a manual for hand-to-hand combat, as taught to British Commandos & other special forces during WWII.
Something to bear in mind: if you strike someone, he might die.
I read of a chap who hit someone in a bar fight; that someone fell over, struck his head on a counter-top and died later that night. The person who threw the punch was aiming for a career in law enforcement; that dream ended for him that night.
Of course this goes both ways, which is why you should take _any_ threat of physical violence _very_ seriously.
Just be prepared TO take a life of someone else who is ready to do the same to you. Or better yet, learn to mitigate these situations by not pubcrawling.
Don't hang out with stupid people. Don't do stupid things. Don't go to stupid places.
Do that, wear a seatbelt (or a helmet if you ride) & you're 99.99% of the way to a safe life.
I'm going to say that this guy is a fraud.
exposing the back of your head is the absolute worst thing you could do.
You're 100% better off eating 100 punches right in the face. This guy is an idiot.
I mean, really?
As penance for those that didn't like the first post, I've posted some Erlang tutorials here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1912062
In the end I went for it for two reasons. Firstly I'd say it's arguably on-topic at the moment, given that the top comments still have comments from the other thread. I think a couple of weeks from now and it wouldn't be, but while it's fresh in people's minds who participated in the original discussion, I felt it was a well written piece that gave some good advice (and perhaps some not so good advice for all situations).
More importantly, from http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html I read this:
If you had to reduce it to a sentence, the answer might be: anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity.
The discussions on the original thread talked a lot about what people would/did do, but a lot of people didn't seem to understand the risks as an adult. I felt that people would enjoy this, but that some wouldn't.
So I apologise to those that don't like it for posting it - I understand entirely where you're coming from, but I posted it for those that took part in the previous discussion. Hopefully it'll run it's course and we can all go back to talking about Erlang again.
http://www.amazon.com/Meditations-Violence-Comparison-Martia...
It's not a book about fighting. It's about how your bodies mental and physical senses react to violent situations.
A)Don't anger people deliberately/don't fight
B)Don't think (harder than you'd imagine). Thinking leads to calculating, which leads to hesitation, even in the best. In fact good fighters become great by going on instinct rather than conscious decisions.
C)Go bleeping crazy. He's trying to inflict real harm on you- looking cool/honorable is for movies. Go for the eyes, nose and groin; that's actually Bruce Lee 101 -- fast, and to the critical areas. Become an animal. Disable (psychologically or physically) them as quickly as possible.
D)Run away. Fast. No one comes to a bar alone, and there will likely be "vigilantes" anyway. High tail it ASAP, and throw come courtesy cash to the bar/host.
E)If you're losing from the beginning in any way, you're not going to pull a comeback. This isn't Rocky. Break away and get out ASAP. See D.
I'd like to note, I got out of several fights in highschool by simply laughing when I got hit. It disconcerts people when you act unexpectedly.
Also;
F) If there's no way out, grab a weapon. In the movies, getting hit over the head with a beer bottle is nothing more than an inconvenience, however in reality it'll either give a concussion or, as happened recently in my area, cause multiple fractures to the skull.
When you're in a fight, assume they're trying to kill you. Respond accordingly. If you almost kill someone, who cares as long as you didn't start the fight. Don't get caught, don't leave a business card. If the cops come, you get a lawyer and claim self defense. At least you're alive and okay.
I wrestled (scholastic wrestling) in high school and college, and that experience has helped me tremendously in whatever bar scuffles I've ended up with. If anyone did want actual advice on how to win a bar fight, the first thing I'd suggest is they take lessons in something like freestyle wrestling or judo. If you can handle yourself in close quarters, you can negate a lot of what a bigger or stronger opponent could do.
One more thing, since I see some people advocating "just knock him out with a 2x4 while he's still jawing at you" -- as I almost learned the hard way in college, if you throw the first punch, that's assault. It's very tempting when some idiot is jawing at you to just end things before they start, but then he could call the cops and press charges and you'll have a huge legal hassle to deal with for the next year. Once he swings at you, retaliation is self-defense and it's fair game.
Turn the other cheek. Avoid sustained eye contact with drunk men in bars. Drive courteously.
Unfortunately for him, he got drunk at the party celebrating his inclusion in the 2008 Olympic squad. He took offense with another (retired gold medallist) swimmer at the party and punched him, shattering his jaw and skull.
D'Arcy was charged with Assualt, and convicted, receiving a suspended jail sentence. He was stripped of his place in the 2008 Olympics and 2009 World Championships and is unlikely to make it to the 2012 London Olympics based on poor form and a lingering failed drug test outcome.
All because he got drunk and decided to hit someone, probably 5-10 years of preparation and work down the drain, a promising career and future financial success all destroyed. No sporting company will touch him for endorsements, even if he does succeed again.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_DArcy
- 3 guys, i'm sober and scared as sh!t, trying to not let them close in, finally see a chance and put all my fear into mavashi gari into the jaw of the central guy, the leader. I'm fortunate enough to get him knocked down, the others 2 stop attacking me.
- 7 guys, i'm absolutely drunk and have no doubts that i would easily take them on. Quickly closing in, delivering a straight right to one (this one is down), a jab to another (stepped back). Next moment the punches and kicks of the rest of the team reach me. It just blows me away, something gets into my legs from behind and i'm down. The kicks continue and continue without interruption. Assume fetal position ...
2) Watch lots of MMA fights. They perfectly model brawls. If it ever happens that two people gang up on you, call the referee and make sure the cameraman sees your outrage.
3) If you repeatedly get beat up, I recommend getting a fighter level. Yes, you might miss out on caster progression, but you can't really enjoy your Meteor Swarm while curled up on the tavern floor.
4) Up Up Down Down Left Right Left Right B A
Your strong arm should be your back arm, that way you can rotate your whole body when you punch and put a lot more weight into it.
Yeah, who the hell does he think he is, Rocky?!
How can you train for boxing for a year and not know how a southpaw stands? I would seriously consider changing where your training, because any competitive fight against a southpaw and you'll be slaughtered if you're not trained for it. Given that 10% of people are lefties, it won't be many fights before you face one.
If you're not trained for a southpaw, you're not trained. The rules, the tactics, everything is pointless. You watch for hits from the wrong side, you throw hits to the wrong side, you block wrong, you dodge wrong.
The article doesn't describe a southpaw, it describes a rightie standing as if they were a southpaw (which they aren't)
And no I haven't had the opportunity to actually spar with a southpaw, I'm sure it's gonna be fun though :)
I was looking for the stats earlier, sorry I didn't post them. Here's the abstract on it: http://bjsportmed.com/content/43/2/142.abstract
> Results: Left-handed boxers had been involved in 75–800 fights (mean 120.6), with 5–79 lost (mean 19.32). A similar evaluation was made for the right-handed boxers. The right-handed boxers had been involved in 50–820 fights (mean 127. 8), with 23–78 lost (mean 42.25). Left-handed boxers were found to be more successful than right-handed ones. The difference between them was found to be significant (p<0.01).
That aside, I agree his guard is shit. His hands should be closer to his chin, and not nearly as far floating out in space. No boxing instructor would let him stand like this. No Muay Thai instructor would either. I can't speak to Krav Maga or any other arts, but yeah, it's rough.
If you don't want to spend time learning and practicing fighting techniques, but you're worried about how you'll fare in a fight, add this to the long list of reasons to keep yourself strong and well-conditioned. Technique is a strength multiplier, and you don't have any technique. An experienced fighter is a wonder of efficency and minimal effort; you won't be. It's amazing how fast you can get tired in a situation where you're going all out (and it's a bad idea to work any less hard than the other guy -- that's another strategy that's only for people who practice and have real skill!)
This is a point that gets overlooked far too often. I have seen plenty of people in peak physical fitness run out of steam after 2 to 3 minutes.
What most people forget is that as well as physical exertion your body releases a massive amount of adrenaline the second a punch is thrown and that wipes you out. It's called an adrenaline dump and it honestly feels like your legs have turned to jelly and you feel like you have zero power behind your punches.
Moral of the story; hit hard and be accurate.
Learning to fight for its own sake is dumb if your plan is to do it outside of a structured sporting event. Keep in mind I don't mean self defense. Most people won't get into a fight unless they feel extremely confident about winning. That could mean they are much bigger, well trained, armed, have lots of friends, etc. If you don't know how to defend yourself, you probably won't figure it out in the time it takes someone to punch you. The best defense is to know when to get out.
Just had a big confrontation with someone at a bar? The time to leave is NOW (before he comes back with friends, a bottle to the back of the head, finds you stumbling out drunk, etc). During that confrontation? Keep your hands up and the other person away from you - pretty much the same stance as if you were going to throw a punch but with your hands open. Don't turn your back to someone who is aggressive - back away slowly.
If worse comes to worse you won't remember any techniques you read here or elsewhere unless you've practiced them A LOT. Just try and remember that while there are no rules you shouldn't try to escalate a fight any more than you need to in order to get away. What I mean by this is if someone shoves you, just walk away. IF you throw a punch then they throw a punch, etc. You hit a guy and he goes down? Great, now leave. Start kicking him now and maybe his 2 or 3 friends decide it's a good time to jump in instead of helping their friend up. Don't escalate a situation unnecessarily.
If you want more than this - go take Krav Maga classes for a year or two - then you'll at least (hopefully) be able to throw a decent punch without hurting yourself.
"End the fight as fast as possible."
This isn't the movies. There are no "cool moves". If you have never done it before, striking another person is emotionally difficult. Your biggest problems are fear, self-doubt and above all, hesitation. Make each blow count. If you swing, do it with the intention of ending the fight with the one hit. Most likely your first swing will be half-strength as your mind deals with the shock of the situation, your own moral issues, fear etc. Either run away or end the fight as fast as possible.
Ps.. I've never been in a fight. Never been bullied. Don't go to bars and don't drink. So what do I know. But this has always seemed liked the best advice.
If you are really interested in learning how to defend yourself, you really should seek professional instruction.
And some of the information in the article is just flat out wrong, particularly where he talks about fighting multiple opponents.
Avoid this crap at all costs. Not worth dying over.
Premise: "There is a phenomenon out there that I call "Violence Geeks." They are a group of individuals who are fixated on the 'idea' of violence.' At the same time, they are terrified of being victims of actual violence. They are an ugly blend of anger, aggressiveness, self-loathing, fear and paranoia. On the plus side, their fear keeps them in check. On the negative side, they are a case of mens rea addressed "To whom it may concern.""
I'm posting this because I used to fall squarely into that category myself. Several years and a few reality checks later, I don't.
But if you read that headline and thought "wow, I must read that" then I'd also have a serious read of the Violence Geeks article and try to work out whether it applies, even in part, to you.
In addition, look at the following causes of death in the USA: http://www.the-eggman.com/writings/death_stats.html (note that AFAICT deaths due to firearms includes negligent discharges & suicides.) You'll note that that table doesn't include 'violence done by strangers.'
If you enjoy martial arts, shooting, etc. in and of themselves, then go right ahead and train. Otherwise, you are probably acting irrationally by investing a lot of time and money in training.
Possibly the most important point it makes is how easy it is to go too far and become the aggressor once you are in a violent conflict. Or to inflame that conflict to begin with.
"The real problem is that -- once the emotions have died down -- you may have to face the fact that your actions and words were part of the creation and escalation of the situation. And they might have been an overreaction on your part."
Having been in a hospital due to an accident, I would never want to put anyone else in there.
And if I was put there by someone else, I would probably have been obsessed with getting back at them.
So to "win" actually just means to "shift trauma around for a while".
I mean, just look at how popular this article is at the moment. There is a lot of latent resentment from being on the receiving end of violence. If you're on the end that's dishing it out, you're just putting other people where you used to be. And you know how that feels.
Also keep in mind that reading an article on fighting makes you about as good at fighting as reading an article on surgery makes you a surgeon. You're liable to make things even worse. If you REALLY want to know how to fight, practice some martial art that takes streetfighting seriously. It's remarkably easy to lose an eye or a testicle.
Additionally, you can't afford to trade 1-for-1 with a drunken asshole. It's like defensive driving -- some people are set on eventually making themselves smoking corpses in a burning wreck, so it's better to get out of the asshole's way than be that other party in the burning wreck.
Getting away from a bad situation IS self-defense.