The test was done in the lower atmosphere to ensure that there is no space debris. Whatever debris that is generated will decay and fall back onto the earth within weeks.
Yeah it will come down... nobody is disputing that. The worry is that in the meantime it could hit some other satellite, causing more debris. Yes the likelihood is vanishingly small. But the consequences of an unlucky event could be large.
When you boost an orbiting object in this manner there's only two possibilities for what can happen next:
a) you give it enough energy to reach escape velocity, in which case there's no problem.
b) you blow out the circular orbit into a long ellipse. The far end, apogee, can be very far out depending on how much energy you added, but the near end, perigee, is always at the same altitude as it was at the moment of impact. Therefore, as long as the satellite is "within" thin atmosphere at the moment of impact, the fragments will periodically pass through thin atmosphere as well.
To properly boost yourself into a higher (circular) orbit you need to give yourself two kicks: one to raise your apogee, and then half an orbit later another to raise your perigee to match.
So you think the entire exercise was carried out for BJP to pull ahead in elections? How much do you think Indian citizens care about this? Do you think it is enough to swing votes?
Well, I've heard people saying that everything from the Pulwama attack to Balakot airstrikes was orchestrated by BJP for electoral gains. So reading the grand parent wasn't surprising.
It is definitely possible that the exercise was carried out independent of the election schedule, but Modi announcing it (instead of some lower official) is because of the elections, part of making every bit of possible patriotism count.
Don't be too quick to overstate others' positions!
Modi heads the Department of Space. He has every right to announce it whether you like it or not.
As far as overstating positions go, the opposition in India was quick to jump to conspiracy theories after the Pulwama attack saying that Modi orchestrated the entire attack for political gains. This ridiculous conspiracy theory mongering has gone on to unprecedented levels this election. After failing at making a dent for the past 1 year by parroting Rafale lies, the opposition is now trying to find a new issue to latch onto.
It can't be that you keep throwing darts until one of them sticks! That is not how a responsible opposition should behave!
I'm not Indian (or from any nearby country!). I do not care if BJP wins the next election or whatever is going on. I am not part of the opposition. Your passion is so overwrought that you are seeing opposition where it isn't.
> China managed to not have Xi Jinping announce when they did it.
Which test you're talking about? Xi wasn't leading China back in 2007. And thanks to the ignorance of their top brass, the Chinese received considerable negative reaction after the test.[1]
Not the entire exercise. But the publishing of the fact imo is to grt better traction for the election. Between such announcements and the modi biopic movie during the elections, i am betting that modi marketing momentum is not going to stop.
Most likely because the Department of Space comes under the Prime Minister.[1] And it was very important to assure the international community that we are not going to use it for attacking another country. PM's direct involvement helps this very much. The Chinese test got a significant negative reaction because of the ignorance from the top leadership.
I'm pretty sure it's because the 2019 General Election is coming up. This prime minister is a right wing populist. After recent tensions between India and Pakistan, he's come out on the top over the opposition. This will probably appeal to his base even more.
He also has a tendency of claiming the achievements of previous governments and/or independent institutions as his own, while blaming all his government's failures on the previous governments. He even blames some of that shit on fucking Nehru, who's been dead for more than 50 years.
Pretty funny you should mention Nehru. Tweets from official Congress party account credits today’s event to Nehru. Both sides resort to the same kind of tactics.
Yeah, both main parties are stuck in the past. The BJP is horrible for obvious reasons, and there is no good opposition party. The upcoming election is going to be a shitshow.
Jawaharlal Nehru and Abul Kalam Azad pretty much built entirety of India's Human resources development and Industrial infrastructure with what was one of the poorest countries at the time.
Historic opportunity meets historic people. Jawaharlal Nehru is one of the best things to happen to India both politically and economically. 5 year plans effectively, though taken from the communist governments of USSR, were one of the greatest political innovations of the age. Focus on big things, 5 years at a time and get it done. Agriculture, industrialization, educational infrastructure, space programs, domestic industrial infrastructure, highways, green revolution, white revolution etc. If you are sitting and working in place like Bangalore, that comes from Industrial infrastructure and its inertial effects on educational institutions around Bangalore.
Needless to say garden variety international foreign affairs policies. Which include but do not end at NAM. Which prevented India from becoming a thugs for hire nation for cold war super powers.
This is above and beyond his pivotal role in India's independence movement.
Eh, I'm not questioning what Nehru did for the country. That's not even the point of discussion. But it is pretty idiotic to attribute recent technological/military success to Nehru, just as it is idiotic to blame him for today's problems in the country.
That doesn't hold water because he wasn't the one who made the Balakot airstrike announcement. While he did announce Mars Orbiter Mission(because the reason I stated in the parent) when there were no elections around. You're free to draw whatever conclusions you want.
The man said nothing, absolutely nothing during the Balakot event. Which is fine, because the whole thing was a cockup anyway. That didn't stop his base from celebrating the event. (Disclaimer: I don't support Pakistan, but you have to add this disclaimer lest you're called "anti-national" by his base)
Anyway, you have to agree the mans a propoganda machine. Just like at the release timeline for the movie Uri...
You're going to get down voted by the hindu nationalist horde. As India steps up it's internet access, the world is going to see more and more Indian trolls and it will become a serious problem.
Modi takes the credit for anything achieved by the government or government backed entities like the space organisation. He singlehandedly opened bank accounts (that are empty), surgically struck Pakistan (with his bare hands), got us to space, developed missiles, brought the black money back, won the cricket world cup, created jobs, built the mandir (that's built, right?) and a million other achievements.
What's curious is that he seems to go missing when there's a fuck up. Who was responsible for demonetization? No idea, blame anyone you want but don't blame him!
Sure, why not? Take credit for whatever you have done, it's naive to think that politicians will not showcase their work. Tell me what do you write in your resume?
Finding personal faults with any public person is pointless (as in having an effect on you). What matters is whether the results are good/bad.
* His list of achievements is absurd and factually incorrect, and he rarely gives credit to others who contributed.
* He hates criticism and tries to muzzle it. A politician should not interfere with the press but he does so. He has gotten journalists fired because they criticised him.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/27/modi-space-wea... "veteran broadcaster Shekhar Gupta tweeted that the space missile had destroyed two targets: a satellite, and “what remained of the stature [and] reputation of Election Commission of India”"
Shooting down your own satellite isn't an "issue of national security."
And the question isn't whether it is permissible, but rather was it an obvious opportunistic move? The answer to the latter is yes to pretty much all of the outside observers.
They shot the satellite with a "missile". And it was a demonstration of what we would do when a spy satellite hovers above us during "wartime". The PM in his address clearly said that this successful test makes "India" more "secure". Considering all this, it pretty much qualifies to be a national security issue to me.
> And the question isn't whether it is permissible, but rather was it an obvious opportunistic move?
Why don't you register a complaint with ECI and take BJP to court? Any lawyer worth their salt will reject to take your case unless they like losing. I am sure now you will attack the Indian judiciary and how BJP has "compromised" that as well. There is no end to this kind of BS argument. Just be happy for India.
To be clear, I'm not objecting to the weapons existence. I'm objecting to the tests, which are potentially worse than above-ground nuclear testing. The kessler syndrome, if realized, would permanently destroy our ability to deploy, access, and use space resources.
Anti-satellite weapon tests? Only twice. Once in 1985, which was internationally condemned and widely considered a mistake, and once operationally in 2008 to destroy a failed satellite about to re-enter with a full tank of toxic fuel (the debris from this immediately entered the atmosphere).
And point to be noted is that this one was just after the election. So it seems like elections have not been a major factor in these kinds of announcement in India.
Also to note, India was already ASAT capable about a decade back, but the political will (INC then) was simply not there to test it out & make a claim as the first among equals.
Just wondering, is it possible to use a big enough mirror and just reflect sunlight to do the same thing? Though this only means satellites can only be destroyed during daytime.
Missiles are easily tracked. Your opposition will know who, how, when and where someone was taking action against them. Light pressure could just subtly push a satellite off course as it passes overhead. They have finite propellant on board to correct for it.
That said, I don't think a big mirror reflecting the sun is all that practical when a big ass laser would do the same job and be easier to manufacture and operate.
Let me get this straight, a missile is easy to track, but a giant mirror reflecting a load of sunlight that would have to be LoS to the satellite wouldn’t be? Not to mention that bombing the mirror would be a lot easier than shooting down the missile...
A missile can be viewed from many angles. A beam of light is (mostly) only visible by whoever its aimed at. Light dispersion not withstanding. Sunlight is quite bright and will mask a lot of the scattered light as well.
The effects of a beam of light strong enough to push a satellite into a rapidly decaying orbit would bloom like mad through the atmosphere, and create very detectable thermal effects. It would be detectable in a number of wavelengths for a staggering distance. You’d also have to impact the satellite so strongly that its station-keeping thrusters would be insufficient, while account for losses through the atmosphere. It would have to work quickly enough that the satellite wouldn’t fly out of range, and your weapon would only work during the day in clear weather.
The atmosphere is hardly a problem. You'd use numerous beams simultaneously, fired from all over the country. No single beam would be powerful enough to cause atmospheric breakdown. The sensible choice is to surround every power plant with lasers.
No, this won't be undetectable.
Light pressure is fine, but probably not as productive as ionizing the surface to produce thrust. With high power, atoms at the surface can become multiply ionized. They get blasted off the surface. This would be pulsed, since otherwise the resulting ions would absorb some of the beam and there would be a risk of melting the surface.
If the thrust isn't enough, for example due to a very high orbit, you can just keep going until the target is gone.
Weather isn't much of a problem. There is probably clear weather somewhere over the country. Station keeping won't last forever.
Oh, and if you don't insist on a neat and tidy removal, you can just use non-pulsed beams to melt the target.
Right, the issue though isn’t if it’s technically possible, but that it would somehow be advantageous compared to a missile. I grant that it can be done, I’m still unsure as to why. Nonetheless I appreciate your analysis!
The first minutes of WWIII will see a multitude of satellites shot 'down', followed by cascading space debris beget space junk.
""In the journey of every nation there are moments that bring utmost pride and have a historic impact on generations to come. One such moment is today,"" U+1F644
U+1F644 is the codepoint for "Face with eyes looking up to sky watching cascading space debris mark the beginning of WW3", in case anyone was wondering.
In cases where the satellite is orbiting low, Kessler shouldn't be a problem. In this case the satellite was at 300km and the pieces would decay in less than a year. Even if pieces were pushed into a higher orbit by the explosion, they would still dip down to 300km periodically and decay just a little longer.
Shooting a satellite in space is many many times more difficult than shooting a bullet with another bullet. It's not just because space is vast, but also because satellites move at about 35000 kmph & you need to factor for the trajectory, gravitation forces etc.
Such a huge step toward more peace in the world. What do you expect when world major democracy advocates are also the world major weapon sellers.
I don't think there is any technological glory on destroying a satellite that deserves such a public announcement. Perhaps it is far less complicated than putting a satellite into space which is what India was already good at it.
>>I don't think there is any technological glory on destroying a satellite
We are talking about the capability to track and destroy a live satellite in space in under a span of 3 minutes with precision. There is a significant amount of technology involved here right from the types of propellants, precise navigation controls to steer rock in a specific direction...all of which has been developed indigenously. This technology can be easily used in other space programs for civilian applications.
Not sure on what basis you are considering this as not being technologically significant.
This is critical for the geopolitical stability of the region. Pakistan, China have traditionally assumed that India lacks the political will as well as the technological capacity to build advanced weapons such as these. This will be a big deterrence and help bring it peace to the region.
I would not be surprised if India announces ICBMs in the next 5 years. A country that can place 100s of satellites in space as well as place geostationary satellites, has the necessary rocket technology to build an ICBM. Just because they don't talk about it, doesn't mean they can't do it.
I think India is in the midst of adopting an active deterrence policy. Being passive hasn't yielded good results.
Strangely, I'm not seeing a wide enough condemnation of this. Another country is building destructive weapons, bringing down LEOs; how is this a good thing? All the while the region suffers from chronic poverty, poor access to clean water and basic services.
Sending a science mission to space is great and rightly lauded, this is wasteful and energies spent better elsewhere.
Advancing your countries technological capability and dealing with one of the largest populations living in poverty are two separate endeavors. Expecting a country to abandon growth in one sector to improve another is not really sensible. Both challenges are being tackled simultaneously. The US conducted Apollo and the Mars missions, spending billions while people in Skid Row or Detroit live in 3rd world level poverty.
This is a common argument (bordering on memetic and cached) and well, the budget for ISRO is about 170M USD, rounding up and considering steady increases lately. That 1:9 compared to recent outlay for just healthcare in the budget, after some basic googling. And strategically, India’s historically wanted increased self-sufficiency after the colonial era, and you need deterrence and military power to protect your own interests. So, it seems to just follow from basic needs and doesn’t seem to be out of whack. ISRO handles a ton of commercial launches too, and space industry is growing more and more — makes economic sense to continue to compete and iterate.
> Strangely, I'm not seeing a wide enough condemnation of this. Another country is building destructive weapons, bringing down LEOs; how is this a good thing?
I've seen some criticism from certain individuals. However, I haven't read any condemnation from any Western government(as yet). I'm not sure but Western governments(or at least the US government) was probably taken into confidence either before the event or soon after the test. Considering that China already has this tech, it becomes paramount for India to have it. I think this is generally supported by the US(the government) as well.
> All the while the region suffers from chronic poverty, poor access to clean water and basic services.
Developing such such security apparatus doesn't mean we are ignoring poverty and other essential things. Both can be done simultaneously, just like the US did(explained by a sibling comment).
Once you see it in the context of protecting your country from hostile and belligerent neighbors, you will realize that it is not at all wasteful, rather is absolutely necessary.
The thing about shooting down another nation's satellites in a military conflict - your own satellites are equally as vulnerable. It's like starting a nuclear war.
I certainly hope that among the nations and people who are developing these weapons, they have a number of game theory people who have thoroughly considered all of the ramifications of mutually assured destruction.
In a major conflict, the US and Russia have a number of geostationary and MEO orbit military satellite communications systems which are outside of the reach of any LEO antisatellite weapons (capable of shooting down things up in up to approximately 550x550km circular orbits).
On an Indian specific note, this threat has to be aimed only at whatever Pakistan might put into orbit. At present Pakistan has negligible ability to launch anything themselves, and very little actual Pakistani owned/manufactured/controlled satellites in low earth orbit. But who else can it possibly be considered a threat to?
India is hopefully not foolish enough to think that they could get into a shooting war with China and come out ahead.
Satellites are sitting ducks. This feat is as admirable as kicking down a sandcastle on the beach.
We need an international treaty banning this because the detritus produced in the form of hundreds of thousands of new fragments in orbit is one of the largest threats to future space development.
Aren't little bits of debris in LEO going to fall back into the atmosphere and burn up pretty quickly, though? Not an expert here, but I think there is enough atmosphere left at standard LEO altitudes that thrusters are needed semi-regularly to keep these things in orbit. Granted, some debris may get launched into a weird elliptical orbit that takes them farther away from Earth for a bit, but then won't they come right back into the atmosphere at perigee and burn up?
To give a context to why this is important (even though technologically it is much easier to shoot a satellite).
Western Nations often have this tendency of pass international laws with exceptions for themselves using ridiculous arguments. Such as nuclear proliferation treaties which allows existing nuclear powers to build more nuclear war heads but does not allow others to build even the first nuke.
India's NSA Ajit Doval in 2011 had pointed out that this is going to happen to satellite sabotage as well. The existing players will gang up to ban such weapons while making exemptions for themselves. By publicly showing and acknowledging this capability India has ensured a seat at the table in future.
We're already working on putting missiles and directed energy in space at my job in missile defense. They are 'defensive' missiles but the new ones they're putting up there will have offensive capabilities as well
Does the fact it was on low orbite would mitigate the risk of adding-up even more space debris to the current graveyard of debris? I remember it was a big concern/critique when China did its own attempt. I don't know enough about this test/space to tell if it's different this time.
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[ 2.3 ms ] story [ 145 ms ] threadV. Does the test create space debris?
The test was done in the lower atmosphere to ensure that there is no space debris. Whatever debris that is generated will decay and fall back onto the earth within weeks.
[0] https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/soon-after-pm-address-foreig...
a) you give it enough energy to reach escape velocity, in which case there's no problem.
b) you blow out the circular orbit into a long ellipse. The far end, apogee, can be very far out depending on how much energy you added, but the near end, perigee, is always at the same altitude as it was at the moment of impact. Therefore, as long as the satellite is "within" thin atmosphere at the moment of impact, the fragments will periodically pass through thin atmosphere as well.
To properly boost yourself into a higher (circular) orbit you need to give yourself two kicks: one to raise your apogee, and then half an orbit later another to raise your perigee to match.
It doesn’t have to be in a sustainable orbit to cause problems.
Adding a link. Sorry about creating a new comment. Am on mobile
Don't be too quick to find faults!
Don't be too quick to overstate others' positions!
As far as overstating positions go, the opposition in India was quick to jump to conspiracy theories after the Pulwama attack saying that Modi orchestrated the entire attack for political gains. This ridiculous conspiracy theory mongering has gone on to unprecedented levels this election. After failing at making a dent for the past 1 year by parroting Rafale lies, the opposition is now trying to find a new issue to latch onto.
It can't be that you keep throwing darts until one of them sticks! That is not how a responsible opposition should behave!
Talk about skewed perspectives.
China managed to not have Xi Jinping announce when they did it.
Which test you're talking about? Xi wasn't leading China back in 2007. And thanks to the ignorance of their top brass, the Chinese received considerable negative reaction after the test.[1]
1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Chinese_anti-satellite_...
You're right - I was confusing it with the more recent non-destructive tests that were also not explicitly announced.
And I don't think they received negative reaction because they didn't announce. It's no secret that the West is not full of fans of China
1. https://www.isro.gov.in/about-isro/organisation-structure
He also has a tendency of claiming the achievements of previous governments and/or independent institutions as his own, while blaming all his government's failures on the previous governments. He even blames some of that shit on fucking Nehru, who's been dead for more than 50 years.
Historic opportunity meets historic people. Jawaharlal Nehru is one of the best things to happen to India both politically and economically. 5 year plans effectively, though taken from the communist governments of USSR, were one of the greatest political innovations of the age. Focus on big things, 5 years at a time and get it done. Agriculture, industrialization, educational infrastructure, space programs, domestic industrial infrastructure, highways, green revolution, white revolution etc. If you are sitting and working in place like Bangalore, that comes from Industrial infrastructure and its inertial effects on educational institutions around Bangalore.
Needless to say garden variety international foreign affairs policies. Which include but do not end at NAM. Which prevented India from becoming a thugs for hire nation for cold war super powers.
This is above and beyond his pivotal role in India's independence movement.
Dude gets credit because he got work done.
Anyway, you have to agree the mans a propoganda machine. Just like at the release timeline for the movie Uri...
What's curious is that he seems to go missing when there's a fuck up. Who was responsible for demonetization? No idea, blame anyone you want but don't blame him!
Finding personal faults with any public person is pointless (as in having an effect on you). What matters is whether the results are good/bad.
* His list of achievements is absurd and factually incorrect, and he rarely gives credit to others who contributed.
* He hates criticism and tries to muzzle it. A politician should not interfere with the press but he does so. He has gotten journalists fired because they criticised him.
Just read the tweets on his profile... A sample: https://mobile.twitter.com/narendramodi/status/1110862796437...
It's like... Damned if you do, Damned if you don't.
If you're going to blindly criticise anyone without considering things out of your bubble, that's your prerogative.
You realize that nobody is fooled right? Everyone except for Modi's supporters sees through this
I'm not about aware about any change in the Code of Conduct since the EC made that statement. Correct me if I am wrong.
And the question isn't whether it is permissible, but rather was it an obvious opportunistic move? The answer to the latter is yes to pretty much all of the outside observers.
> And the question isn't whether it is permissible, but rather was it an obvious opportunistic move?
I don't know.
I'm not arguing over the legality. I'm saying it's an obvious see-through attempt to circumvent those rules and to hold on to power.
Modi-ites like you are not going to convince me or any other objective observer otherwise
So the first, the US, was a travesty, but everyone else is legitimate self-defense?
To be clear, I'm not objecting to the weapons existence. I'm objecting to the tests, which are potentially worse than above-ground nuclear testing. The kessler syndrome, if realized, would permanently destroy our ability to deploy, access, and use space resources.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pokhran-II
And point to be noted is that this one was just after the election. So it seems like elections have not been a major factor in these kinds of announcement in India.
Also to note, India was already ASAT capable about a decade back, but the political will (INC then) was simply not there to test it out & make a claim as the first among equals.
That said, I don't think a big mirror reflecting the sun is all that practical when a big ass laser would do the same job and be easier to manufacture and operate.
It really makes no sense at all.
The atmosphere is hardly a problem. You'd use numerous beams simultaneously, fired from all over the country. No single beam would be powerful enough to cause atmospheric breakdown. The sensible choice is to surround every power plant with lasers.
No, this won't be undetectable.
Light pressure is fine, but probably not as productive as ionizing the surface to produce thrust. With high power, atoms at the surface can become multiply ionized. They get blasted off the surface. This would be pulsed, since otherwise the resulting ions would absorb some of the beam and there would be a risk of melting the surface.
If the thrust isn't enough, for example due to a very high orbit, you can just keep going until the target is gone.
Weather isn't much of a problem. There is probably clear weather somewhere over the country. Station keeping won't last forever.
Oh, and if you don't insist on a neat and tidy removal, you can just use non-pulsed beams to melt the target.
For a rough estimate, see this: https://what-if.xkcd.com/13/
""In the journey of every nation there are moments that bring utmost pride and have a historic impact on generations to come. One such moment is today,"" U+1F644
https://codepoints.net/U+1F644
We can see space-x events from 32 different angles and audio of everything happening, I kind of assume you would record these events too?
Example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbital_decay#/media/File:Alti...
I don't think there is any technological glory on destroying a satellite that deserves such a public announcement. Perhaps it is far less complicated than putting a satellite into space which is what India was already good at it.
We are talking about the capability to track and destroy a live satellite in space in under a span of 3 minutes with precision. There is a significant amount of technology involved here right from the types of propellants, precise navigation controls to steer rock in a specific direction...all of which has been developed indigenously. This technology can be easily used in other space programs for civilian applications.
Not sure on what basis you are considering this as not being technologically significant.
I would not be surprised if India announces ICBMs in the next 5 years. A country that can place 100s of satellites in space as well as place geostationary satellites, has the necessary rocket technology to build an ICBM. Just because they don't talk about it, doesn't mean they can't do it.
I think India is in the midst of adopting an active deterrence policy. Being passive hasn't yielded good results.
Sending a science mission to space is great and rightly lauded, this is wasteful and energies spent better elsewhere.
I've seen some criticism from certain individuals. However, I haven't read any condemnation from any Western government(as yet). I'm not sure but Western governments(or at least the US government) was probably taken into confidence either before the event or soon after the test. Considering that China already has this tech, it becomes paramount for India to have it. I think this is generally supported by the US(the government) as well.
> All the while the region suffers from chronic poverty, poor access to clean water and basic services.
Developing such such security apparatus doesn't mean we are ignoring poverty and other essential things. Both can be done simultaneously, just like the US did(explained by a sibling comment).
https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/02/india/nasa-india-anti-missile...
I certainly hope that among the nations and people who are developing these weapons, they have a number of game theory people who have thoroughly considered all of the ramifications of mutually assured destruction.
In a major conflict, the US and Russia have a number of geostationary and MEO orbit military satellite communications systems which are outside of the reach of any LEO antisatellite weapons (capable of shooting down things up in up to approximately 550x550km circular orbits).
On an Indian specific note, this threat has to be aimed only at whatever Pakistan might put into orbit. At present Pakistan has negligible ability to launch anything themselves, and very little actual Pakistani owned/manufactured/controlled satellites in low earth orbit. But who else can it possibly be considered a threat to?
India is hopefully not foolish enough to think that they could get into a shooting war with China and come out ahead.
We need an international treaty banning this because the detritus produced in the form of hundreds of thousands of new fragments in orbit is one of the largest threats to future space development.
Western Nations often have this tendency of pass international laws with exceptions for themselves using ridiculous arguments. Such as nuclear proliferation treaties which allows existing nuclear powers to build more nuclear war heads but does not allow others to build even the first nuke.
India's NSA Ajit Doval in 2011 had pointed out that this is going to happen to satellite sabotage as well. The existing players will gang up to ban such weapons while making exemptions for themselves. By publicly showing and acknowledging this capability India has ensured a seat at the table in future.