When AT&T has so willingly handed over call data to the U.S. intelligence agencies for decades, even assisting in the analysis of said data, I have to question the assault on Huawei by U.S. media.
If you equate AT&T's said practices with Huawei's practices, then you just answered your own question. The Chinese Communist Party is not friend of freedom, nor of free journalism.
We need a larger time frame to put our world in its proper perspective.
Freedom, including freedom of the press, is an anomaly in the history of the human race. That it came about is pretty much a miracle, there is nothing natural about it. And there is nothing natural about keeping it. You have to fight hard not to loose it.
The US in this perspective has been a large force for freedom in the world. But that can change any moment. There are forces within US that wish the Constitution would just go away.
That said, the US government is still a far far cry from being the totalitarian dictator the Chinese Communist Party currently is in China.
Regarding the "free journalism": we will see if the US lives up to the First Amendment in the Julian Assange case... 25 years ago the US was supporter of "free journalism", but today things are changing rapidly...
What about blasting President Trump on front page of NYTimes, almost every day since he was elected? US has a tremendous sense of free press, you can't pick and choose.
Do you see any negative press about Xi Jingpin in China?
I agree that we can't really compare the human rights violations of US vs the ones of China. The criticism here is that we can't just has "handles its data to the local government" as a criterion to judge a company unacceptable as the practice is, sadly, common over the globe.
I do. You have two governments that tell respective large telecoms to “hand it over or else”. Back doors, trade secrets, what have you. The rest seems like splitting hairs. Private communication and the separation of the pipe/hardware vendor and the government has become an illusion in both instances.
Funny how this works. There exist a whole range of actions for which I'd much more be willing to be spied upon by an openly hostile foreign power rather than my, ever so slightly friendlier, own government.
That’s very shortsighted. First of all the spying that your own government does has to be lawful, whereas in the eyes of a foreign government you have no rights.
Also in your own country you have legal ways to fight the spying conducted by your government, whereas you can do absolutely nothing to a foreign government.
I’m an EU citizen and this is precisely why I got mad about the Snowden revelations. Because under US legislation as a non-US citizen I have no rights above whatever the trade agreements between the US and the EU are saying. And once that data gets collected, it will get abused sooner or later.
And let me tell you, being born in an ex-communist state from the Warsaw Pact, the thought that another communist state is watching me is freaking me out ;-)
>That’s very shortsighted. First of all the spying that your own government does has to be lawful, whereas in the eyes of a foreign government you have no rights.
Do you think the Snowden leaks showed clear violations of the 4th amendment to the US constitution? If so, this whole argument is null and void. Believing that a surveillance state will follow it's own laws is just plain silly, that's not how the world works.
>> "Do you think the Snowden leaks showed clear violations of the 4th amendment"
Yes, they showed a clear violation.
>> "If so, this whole argument is null and void. Believing that a surveillance state will follow it's own laws is just plain silly."
Sorry, but your conclusion does not follow. Yes, I do believe that in a country with the rule of law my rights are reasonably well protected. Yes, some state agencies can break that law, that's why you've got the checks and balances system. Countries like China fall short in all departments.
And the Snowden leaks couldn't have happened in China, so presenting it as proof that Western countries are as bad is what's silly.
>> "that's not how the world works"
Compared with most people here, I was actually born under a communist regime that took surveillance and suppression of speech to a whole new level (that 1984 novel was actually more realistic than what happened under the Iron Curtain), so I probably know how the world works better than you ;-)
>Yes, some state agencies can break that law, that's why you've got the checks and balances system.
Nobody served time for breaking the rules. They act like they're obeying their interpretation of the rules now, but since we know they lied for years and nobody was punished it would be silly to believe them. Do you think the checks and balances of the US system did their job in this case?
>Countries like China fall short in all departments.
I'll agree that they censor more. I'm not convinced that their checks and balances against illegal surveillance are better, since I see no believable evidence of US checks and balances working in this department.
>And the Snowden leaks couldn't have happened in China,
Snowden flew to China before letting the leaks drop. Could a Chinese national not leave the country and drop a leak? Why is this impossible? I'll buy that news coverage would be more censored, but that isn't your claim.
>so presenting it as proof that Western countries are as bad is what's silly.
This doesn't follow regardless, if it did then any leak of any abuses whatsoever couldn't be used as proof simply because it was allowed to be published. Is this the only metric we judge governments by?
>so I probably know how the world works better than you ;-)
Relatively novel experiences can be useful, but it would be foolish to mistake them for wisdom.
While both are reprehensible behavior, supply information to the US government and being fundamentally linked with the Chinese Communist government aren't even close. It's like comparing a school yard bully to a serial killer. Political dissenters don't disappear when AT&T shares information with the FBI.
We really need to question how so many Westerners have gotten to a point that they some how see an equivalence.
Where did I say they were blameless? There are varying degrees of bad behavior, and while the US Government has a whole host of actions they can be validly criticized for, they're not even in the same ball park as the PRC.
As I said, we really need to consider how so many Westerners have become so blind to that fact that this weak whataboutism can we depended on when any mention of China is made.
As a Chinese citizen, my tax money has never been used by the CCP to launch foreign wars killing innocent civilians. You have blood on your hand every time when you pay your tax $ to fund those wars.
Take that and reconsider your "whataboutism" comment.
I think the main factor here is that the Chinese government spying on me likely would have no impact on my life, while the US government spying on me has a direct impact. So as an average US citizen, I should be far more concerned about US spying than Chinese spying.
I absolutely agree though, I'd be far more afraid of using a Chinese device as a Chinese citizen than as an American citizen using an American device. China has far worse human rights abuses, it's just the ways they can impact most Americans are minimal in comparison.
I feel it's reasonable for an individual to be concerned about your own country's human rights abuses first and foremost as those are the ones you're personally most likely to contend with.
> I feel it's reasonable for an individual to be concerned about your own country's human rights abuses first and foremost as those are the ones you're personally most likely to contend with.
That is why you should tell your government to stop making such false claims against Huawei and violate your human rights.
When your government keeps telling your that Huawei is spying on US citizens, what is the evidence they have? If there is no evidence, how such behaviour is not for intentionally creating fear to US citizens? How that is not human right abuse?
Trust yourself, you deserve to know the truth and see the evidence, you don't have to live in the fear created by the government funded using your tax $. Tell them to show you the evidence or just shut their big mouth up.
Even if China is guilty of worse than the United States, it's not clear to me that that should be salient to Americans. I'd submit that, although China is constantly presented as a rival, Americans are much more likely to be harmed by their own government than by China's. (Americans should also be concerned about this because they are, to some extent, responsible for it themselves.) If that's true, then perhaps they should indeed be more critical of AT&T than Huawei.
The argument in this article is not that Huawei is handing over data, or anything else AT&T has been accused of. It's that Huawei is secretly a front for the Chinese government.
AT&T worked with the US government to spy on Americans and foreign nationals and then when they were bused the US government gave them retroactive immunity.
BTW.. Retroactive immunity is illegal for criminal cases but it's perfectly ok for civil cases.
You're looking at it from a 'justice' perspective. It's much easier to explain the attitudes from an 'us-vs-them' perspective: US spying is used to give the US an advantage. Chinese spying is to give China an advantage.
It's a lot like complaining about armed Chinese soldiers stationed in the US, only to be met by "Well our own soldiers are also armed".
I think you're describing the real politic situation between the US and China correctly, but as somebody who is in a country controlled by armed US soldiers I'm more concerned about being spied on by the US than China. If you don't identify with the corrupt government you live under the us-vs-them division seems fairly meaningless. It's not like the NSA is looking out for my best interests, or else they'd be patching vulnerabilities instead of exploiting them.
Personally, I believe so, yes. When you have two competing powers, neither can abuse their power as much. Ideally, it wouldn't be just two, but two are better than one. If the EU could emancipate itself from the US, that would be a very welcome addition, but I don't see that happening anytime soon because the EU is made up of many interests and has no single government (and I'd love to have less EU, but for other reasons) so it's not able to compete at the same level.
When the soviets were still a credible threat, the West needed to give their lower classes a piece of the pie because of the sweet promises the soviets spoke of (it doesn't matter whether they ever fulfilled them). Now that that's gone, they don't, and my country hasn't seen net wage increases for workers for multiple decades despite huge increases in productivity. We have seen a drop on corporate taxes and more tax evasion for the ultra rich, though.
I took GP to be asking a question with regards to surveillance specifically. I think this might be a realm where competition brings an arms-race with negative consequences for citizens. I think China having data gives the US more of a reason to have data, and vice versa. That being said, the NSA might start disclosing vulnerabilities quicker if China stepped up their exploit game.
Possibly, but so far the NSA didn't show any restraint, so how big is the risk that they get more appetite? On the other hand, it might well be that "you spy on us? we'll buy from China then" makes them take it down a notch, and the same will apply to China. Choice limits the power the supplier has over the buyer.
Of course, it could also lead to the two global powers having an agreement, splitting up the world and nothing really changes, but if there's a chance, there is hope.
Realistically, in general, no. In at least one specific hypothetical case relevant to this discussion, yes: if I were convinced that there was a cellphone provider that was forwarding my data to China but not the US, I'd pick them over the US provider. I don't think that's what's going with Huawei phones (the US still gets that data), and I don't think it's a reasonably likely scenario, but I would make that trade-off in lieu of better options.
You should absolutely question the US intelligence community and its relationship with the business community. And I'm sure you do.
You should also be suspicious of China, for exactly the same reason. And the fact that you explicitly refuse to (and get upvoted to the top of the topic by the HN community!) is... well, it's fucking horrifying.
Seriously folks? You're so pissed at the NSA that the PRC is a "good guy" to you now and you need to defend them on the internet and cast aspersions against the "assault" on them by the media?
Let me try to give you my personal perspective. Not a fan of the PRC (though strangely fascinated), I'm from western Europe. China has little to no influence here, the US has gigantic influence. China hasn't been wholesale spying on us, or hasn't been caught doing that yet. The US has, and probably still does. Chinese companies don't practically have monopolies here, US companies do.
From my perspective, China might become a threat at some point, the US is a giant threat right now. I have a feeling that I'm not alone with that, and it might explain why you get a more nuanced reaction from Non-Americans to the China/US-conflict.
Some us care more about the threat posted by the PRC to its own people, FWIW. I mean, look, if you want to argue from a position of Euro-centric parochialism... I don't live there, so I don't need to care about that logic, right?
Possibly, but that might also just be a rationalization for protecting your interests which are generally aligned with those of your country. There are many variables, but I don't think that "China mistreats it's people" isn't high on the list for "We need to keep Huawei out and rely on US technology only". Technological and economic influence/power are much more important, Realpolitik wins every time.
And I repeat, I remain genuinely horrified that the same people who rail on incesantly (and justifiably!) about US abuses are willing to rationalize, explain away and ignore those of the PRC.
Are you absolutely sure it's me doing the "rationalization for protecting your interests which are generally aligned with those of your country"?
I have two sets of personal experiences that cause me concern when I hear the “Huawei as PRC front company” line in articles. As a young engineer at AT&T in the late ‘80s a senior engineer who was consulting with our small team broke it down for me that the DSP algorithms we were working on were probably being used for eavesdropping. He recused himself from the team after this discovery and this event I suppose left me a bit jaded.
Some 20 years later, I happened to meet some of the Huawei employees in their Botswana office while there on an extended visit. Seemed like the typical big co. field office. The office manager was so annoyed when the first of the Huawei stories came out. She responded with words to the effect “why all the U.S. hate? Why is it that a successful Chinese company can’t just be successful?”
I don't doubt that there’s a lot of questionable stuff going on at Huawei. This happens with companies operating in the confines of countries with extreme geopolitical goals. Those of you that have worked on federal contracts probably can attest to the murky relationship between government and company interests.
In terms of the human rights of PRC vs US, I am not a deep student of PRC. I will say that as a U.S. citizen I’ve experienced a sliding scale of human rights. The egregious human rights violations meted on on non-US citizens in Vietnam, GWOT, the current U.S. southern border situation, etc has been documented. The human rights violations of African Americans, indigenous Americans, LGBT Americans — these may be of less degree than that of PRC towards its citizens including ethnic minorities, but they are shameful nevertheless and painful (as I and many people that I care for have experienced) and demand a resolution.
The American citizens do have the rights to demand better accountability of their intelligence agency practices by voting in people who will enforce those practices. For several administrations running, they seem to have abandoned that responsibility.
But is the assault not called for? Has huawei not don't weird/shady/illegal things? I'm not questioning your statement on AT&T, I happen to agree, but is the topic at hand not the actions and history of Huawei?
I have personally decided to avoid buying 'Made in China' products whenever it's possible. It's hard, but I don't want to support their work conditions or predatory geoeconomics in any way.
This is a more extreme position than many people are comfortable taking (and is perhaps not reasonable or consistent), but it is a fair position to take, and is not expressed in an inflammatory or demeaning way.
Please do not kill this comment; I think it is a good seed for discussion relevant to the article (should the US ban Huawei because it is controlled by the (adversarial) Chinese government? If so, what's the cutoff for 'controlled by the government'?). I say this because it had been killed just moments after being posted, and I think that was unwarranted.
"Hard" seems understated in this case. I imagine there are whole categories of products where at least one important subsystem is made in China. Can I buy a car with zero chance that any of the electronics were made or assembled in China? Similar for phones, computers.
I think the question is whether it even approaches 1% for anything with electronics in it. Can you buy a car, phone, PC, etc, that has zero made or assembled in China subsystems?
I bought it before I committed to this decision, and as others have said it's nearly impossible to avoid Made In China products completely, but here goes:
USA companies:
Corsair - case, PSU;
Intel - CPU;
Razer (also has HQ in HongKong/Singapore) - mouse;
Taiwanese companies:
MSI - motherboard and GPU;
ASUS - monitor;
CoolerMaster - keyboard;
Of course most of them buy stuff from Chinese suppliers, but you can only do so much.
While you can not buy products where no part is made in China, you very often have a choice where to allocate profits from your purchase.
For example, if you buy Huawei phones, then most of the money goes to China. If you buy from a non-Chinese company, the extend is less.
As to the people who just instinctively respond with whataboutism: China is a dictatorship that not only commits genocide against Muslims in Xingjiang, they are also overtly hostile to anyone, especially any country, not directly supporting their view of censorship and social control.
How you personally deal with the US and US products, is your choice. In the same way.
But let me say one thing: As many faults as the US has, it has nothing on China when it comes to the suppression of freedom of speech.
For example, everyone and their mom makes fun of Trump, and Americans. Or Germans, or British. Or whatever.
But make fun of China or the CCP in any way, and a wave of threats, both political and personal, descent upon you - up to the highest level. Ask that Swedish TV show... And you better never set foot into China after that.
Anyone who has the slightest idea about Chinese face culture, and its political environment, know that the two countries are simply not comparable in that regard. And whatever wrongs the US has, it has them for completely different reasons.
USA is right to fear them. Spying issues aside (for a second) here is this giant company that easily take over the worldwide smartphone market. The very things USA has controlled since Jobs and Gates started. Oh, and they can spy on everyone.
For the "You too" crowd: Yes, NSA spies on whatever they can. But you do not see Apple or Google doing what NSA wants. I have a feeling that Huawei doesn't have the option of going to Federal Court where highly educated and appointed-for-life judges decide. impartially.
I really feel that HN has some really unusual behavior when criticizing China. Almost always, HN defends China by throwing rocks at US. It is really baffling.
I'm reading this differently. To most Americans, the issue is pretty clear: American geopolitics, industrial espionage and global surveillance benefits them, China doing the same does not.
For Non-Americans, it's different, therefore their reactions aren't as simple as US good, China bad.
I don't think so. There can only be the following explanations for this behavior:
-> A) People don't know how bad it is in China
-> B) People support authoritarian government over democracy
-> C) People do not support USA or have some deep rooted hatred for the country which gets channeled through US vs China debate
-> D) There is a large pro-China population on HN, perhaps immigrants to US, perhaps people from China, perhaps folks from other countries who support China
This is tribalism at its most glorified form. Instead of debating issues in isolation, we are engaging in this barbaric form of debate where facts take a back seat and rhetoric and nationalism prevail.
When there's a thread discussing Assange, or the NSA, the top comment is never "but China does it too, this is an unfair attack on the US."
Right now there are millions of people in concentration camps for belonging to the wrong ethnic group and practicing the wrong religion. How bad does it have to get before we can agree that the Chinese government isn't just the victim of US propaganda?
Do they have to start executing Uighurs en masse? If history is any indication, that's the most likely next step in this story.
Edit: I noticed this article just moved from #8 to #38 in under 5 minutes. What's the reasoning behind flagging this.
> Most Americans have never heard of Huawei, in part because it has been obsessed with secrecy since its founding in 1987
They're not terribly good at this secrecy lark, then. The phone sitting on my desk has got "Huawei" written on the front in big letters and has the word "Huawei" filling the screen every time it boots.
65 comments
[ 3.3 ms ] story [ 111 ms ] threadFreedom, including freedom of the press, is an anomaly in the history of the human race. That it came about is pretty much a miracle, there is nothing natural about it. And there is nothing natural about keeping it. You have to fight hard not to loose it.
The US in this perspective has been a large force for freedom in the world. But that can change any moment. There are forces within US that wish the Constitution would just go away.
That said, the US government is still a far far cry from being the totalitarian dictator the Chinese Communist Party currently is in China.
Do you see any negative press about Xi Jingpin in China?
Also in your own country you have legal ways to fight the spying conducted by your government, whereas you can do absolutely nothing to a foreign government.
I’m an EU citizen and this is precisely why I got mad about the Snowden revelations. Because under US legislation as a non-US citizen I have no rights above whatever the trade agreements between the US and the EU are saying. And once that data gets collected, it will get abused sooner or later.
And let me tell you, being born in an ex-communist state from the Warsaw Pact, the thought that another communist state is watching me is freaking me out ;-)
Do you think the Snowden leaks showed clear violations of the 4th amendment to the US constitution? If so, this whole argument is null and void. Believing that a surveillance state will follow it's own laws is just plain silly, that's not how the world works.
Yes, they showed a clear violation.
>> "If so, this whole argument is null and void. Believing that a surveillance state will follow it's own laws is just plain silly."
Sorry, but your conclusion does not follow. Yes, I do believe that in a country with the rule of law my rights are reasonably well protected. Yes, some state agencies can break that law, that's why you've got the checks and balances system. Countries like China fall short in all departments.
And the Snowden leaks couldn't have happened in China, so presenting it as proof that Western countries are as bad is what's silly.
>> "that's not how the world works"
Compared with most people here, I was actually born under a communist regime that took surveillance and suppression of speech to a whole new level (that 1984 novel was actually more realistic than what happened under the Iron Curtain), so I probably know how the world works better than you ;-)
Nobody served time for breaking the rules. They act like they're obeying their interpretation of the rules now, but since we know they lied for years and nobody was punished it would be silly to believe them. Do you think the checks and balances of the US system did their job in this case?
>Countries like China fall short in all departments.
I'll agree that they censor more. I'm not convinced that their checks and balances against illegal surveillance are better, since I see no believable evidence of US checks and balances working in this department.
>And the Snowden leaks couldn't have happened in China,
Snowden flew to China before letting the leaks drop. Could a Chinese national not leave the country and drop a leak? Why is this impossible? I'll buy that news coverage would be more censored, but that isn't your claim.
>so presenting it as proof that Western countries are as bad is what's silly.
This doesn't follow regardless, if it did then any leak of any abuses whatsoever couldn't be used as proof simply because it was allowed to be published. Is this the only metric we judge governments by?
>so I probably know how the world works better than you ;-)
Relatively novel experiences can be useful, but it would be foolish to mistake them for wisdom.
We really need to question how so many Westerners have gotten to a point that they some how see an equivalence.
As I said, we really need to consider how so many Westerners have become so blind to that fact that this weak whataboutism can we depended on when any mention of China is made.
As a Chinese citizen, my tax money has never been used by the CCP to launch foreign wars killing innocent civilians. You have blood on your hand every time when you pay your tax $ to fund those wars.
Take that and reconsider your "whataboutism" comment.
I absolutely agree though, I'd be far more afraid of using a Chinese device as a Chinese citizen than as an American citizen using an American device. China has far worse human rights abuses, it's just the ways they can impact most Americans are minimal in comparison.
I feel it's reasonable for an individual to be concerned about your own country's human rights abuses first and foremost as those are the ones you're personally most likely to contend with.
That is why you should tell your government to stop making such false claims against Huawei and violate your human rights.
When your government keeps telling your that Huawei is spying on US citizens, what is the evidence they have? If there is no evidence, how such behaviour is not for intentionally creating fear to US citizens? How that is not human right abuse?
Trust yourself, you deserve to know the truth and see the evidence, you don't have to live in the fear created by the government funded using your tax $. Tell them to show you the evidence or just shut their big mouth up.
AT&T worked with the US government to spy on Americans and foreign nationals and then when they were bused the US government gave them retroactive immunity.
BTW.. Retroactive immunity is illegal for criminal cases but it's perfectly ok for civil cases.
Ex post facto...
This was a complete miscarriage of justice.
It would make sense from a media perspective as they are trying to drive attention and thus eyeballs, and xenophobia sells page views
It's a lot like complaining about armed Chinese soldiers stationed in the US, only to be met by "Well our own soldiers are also armed".
Edit: To clarify, by 'the situation', I mean general quality of life/effective freedom, not necessarily limited to surveillance.
When the soviets were still a credible threat, the West needed to give their lower classes a piece of the pie because of the sweet promises the soviets spoke of (it doesn't matter whether they ever fulfilled them). Now that that's gone, they don't, and my country hasn't seen net wage increases for workers for multiple decades despite huge increases in productivity. We have seen a drop on corporate taxes and more tax evasion for the ultra rich, though.
Of course, it could also lead to the two global powers having an agreement, splitting up the world and nothing really changes, but if there's a chance, there is hope.
You should also be suspicious of China, for exactly the same reason. And the fact that you explicitly refuse to (and get upvoted to the top of the topic by the HN community!) is... well, it's fucking horrifying.
Seriously folks? You're so pissed at the NSA that the PRC is a "good guy" to you now and you need to defend them on the internet and cast aspersions against the "assault" on them by the media?
From my perspective, China might become a threat at some point, the US is a giant threat right now. I have a feeling that I'm not alone with that, and it might explain why you get a more nuanced reaction from Non-Americans to the China/US-conflict.
Are you absolutely sure it's me doing the "rationalization for protecting your interests which are generally aligned with those of your country"?
Some 20 years later, I happened to meet some of the Huawei employees in their Botswana office while there on an extended visit. Seemed like the typical big co. field office. The office manager was so annoyed when the first of the Huawei stories came out. She responded with words to the effect “why all the U.S. hate? Why is it that a successful Chinese company can’t just be successful?”
I don't doubt that there’s a lot of questionable stuff going on at Huawei. This happens with companies operating in the confines of countries with extreme geopolitical goals. Those of you that have worked on federal contracts probably can attest to the murky relationship between government and company interests.
In terms of the human rights of PRC vs US, I am not a deep student of PRC. I will say that as a U.S. citizen I’ve experienced a sliding scale of human rights. The egregious human rights violations meted on on non-US citizens in Vietnam, GWOT, the current U.S. southern border situation, etc has been documented. The human rights violations of African Americans, indigenous Americans, LGBT Americans — these may be of less degree than that of PRC towards its citizens including ethnic minorities, but they are shameful nevertheless and painful (as I and many people that I care for have experienced) and demand a resolution.
The American citizens do have the rights to demand better accountability of their intelligence agency practices by voting in people who will enforce those practices. For several administrations running, they seem to have abandoned that responsibility.
Please do not kill this comment; I think it is a good seed for discussion relevant to the article (should the US ban Huawei because it is controlled by the (adversarial) Chinese government? If so, what's the cutoff for 'controlled by the government'?). I say this because it had been killed just moments after being posted, and I think that was unwarranted.
USA companies: Corsair - case, PSU; Intel - CPU; Razer (also has HQ in HongKong/Singapore) - mouse;
Taiwanese companies: MSI - motherboard and GPU; ASUS - monitor; CoolerMaster - keyboard;
Of course most of them buy stuff from Chinese suppliers, but you can only do so much.
For example, if you buy Huawei phones, then most of the money goes to China. If you buy from a non-Chinese company, the extend is less.
As to the people who just instinctively respond with whataboutism: China is a dictatorship that not only commits genocide against Muslims in Xingjiang, they are also overtly hostile to anyone, especially any country, not directly supporting their view of censorship and social control.
How you personally deal with the US and US products, is your choice. In the same way.
But let me say one thing: As many faults as the US has, it has nothing on China when it comes to the suppression of freedom of speech. For example, everyone and their mom makes fun of Trump, and Americans. Or Germans, or British. Or whatever. But make fun of China or the CCP in any way, and a wave of threats, both political and personal, descent upon you - up to the highest level. Ask that Swedish TV show... And you better never set foot into China after that.
Anyone who has the slightest idea about Chinese face culture, and its political environment, know that the two countries are simply not comparable in that regard. And whatever wrongs the US has, it has them for completely different reasons.
For the "You too" crowd: Yes, NSA spies on whatever they can. But you do not see Apple or Google doing what NSA wants. I have a feeling that Huawei doesn't have the option of going to Federal Court where highly educated and appointed-for-life judges decide. impartially.
For Non-Americans, it's different, therefore their reactions aren't as simple as US good, China bad.
-> A) People don't know how bad it is in China
-> B) People support authoritarian government over democracy
-> C) People do not support USA or have some deep rooted hatred for the country which gets channeled through US vs China debate
-> D) There is a large pro-China population on HN, perhaps immigrants to US, perhaps people from China, perhaps folks from other countries who support China
This is tribalism at its most glorified form. Instead of debating issues in isolation, we are engaging in this barbaric form of debate where facts take a back seat and rhetoric and nationalism prevail.
Right now there are millions of people in concentration camps for belonging to the wrong ethnic group and practicing the wrong religion. How bad does it have to get before we can agree that the Chinese government isn't just the victim of US propaganda?
Do they have to start executing Uighurs en masse? If history is any indication, that's the most likely next step in this story.
Edit: I noticed this article just moved from #8 to #38 in under 5 minutes. What's the reasoning behind flagging this.
They're not terribly good at this secrecy lark, then. The phone sitting on my desk has got "Huawei" written on the front in big letters and has the word "Huawei" filling the screen every time it boots.