I’m usually the last person to say this. But someone should definitely get fired over the 3 year keyboard fiasco. After the problems they had when they were first introduced in the 12” MacBook, someone should have said its time to switch directions.
Apple are currently facing a class action for selling known-faulty iPhone 4S/5 hardware in which they're accused of deceptive or fraudulent business practices. Now they do that across multiple product lines, multiple generations...
I don’t pay much credence to every random class action suit.
They can even be forgiven for having a systemic hardware issue that only becomes apparent once you have millions of devices out there. The keyboard issue is different. They knew they had an issue when they released the 12” MacBook but they kept introducing new models with the same issue. They could have easily just done a speed bump and kept the 2015 design. No one was clamoring for USB C or the Touch Bar.
Even though I think AntennaGate was overblown and they did keep selling the GSM iPhone 4 with no changes, they did make changes to the design nine months later for the CDMA iPhone 4.
It's not a random class action, it's about three generations of iPhones with power button issues that Apple sold whilst knowing they were faulty, eventually relying on a free repair program to fix them instead of solving the problem prior to sale.
A magic fairy doesn't instantly swap out the defective phone with a good one (and transfer all the files) the instant the problem occurs.
Some people are in countries with no Apple stores, some people are using it as a camera on a week-long backpacking trip in the middle of nowhere. Some people have families and jobs they have to tend to and don't want to waste what little precious freetime they have on this BS, etc.
Edit: and not everyone in the U.S. who has free time, lives near an Apple Store or can get an appointment next day.
I used to not have responsibilities, and I wondered why everyone has a hard time with things. Now I have responsibilities and can see why.
The phone would have been backed up by default the last time it was plugged in. I’m just saying as one last sanity check, I would be backing up the phone. But in the case of the home button. The phone wasn’t “dead”.
The last time it was plugged into a wall outlet, in an area with no Internet coverage? Or what about that irreplaceable photo I just took since the last time I plugged it into my computer, that I need right now and can't access until my phone is fixed?
Now we're just nitpicking each other. Hopefully you can at least see that they aren't magical devices that will solve everyone's problems. They do break, and like with any device that breaks, it can be a real inconvience for its user.
The phone didn’t die in an area with no coverage in this case - the homr button did. Are you saying that at no point between the time that the home button failed and you took it in to get it serviced/replaced that the hypothetical person couldn’t get internet access?
I've been following Apple for years and don't recall widespread reports of what I'm sure would have gleefully reported in the press as "Buttongate"; that some home buttons failed prematurely isn't in and of itself a convincing argument for Apple's active malevolence, given that we're talking about, what, ~200M units? In those numbers, 99.99% of the switches could have no problems at all and there would still literally be tens of thousands of failures.
Maybe Apple shipped faulty switches knowingly. But they're also an awfully big juicy target for less scrupulous lawyers.
As I said in another reply, I don’t fault them for not catching it in development. Some problems can’t be accurately simulated. I fault them for continuing the roll out to the rest of the line after the problem became apparent.
Most of Apple’s rebound can be attributed to two people - Jobs for the vision and Tim Cook for turning around their operations.
There is no next iPhone type product on the horizon. The smart phone already has 66% penetration in the world. Anything that Apple introduces is going to pale in comparison.
Apple cant innovate because they wait for others to invest something and then they try to improve it. Thats why they are moving into subscriptions to get MRR or ARR. Build a moat that people forget they throw money into every month and call it profit and revenue. It will certainly work, but its just not the Apple that made people proud to use Apple.
Exactly what area should they invest in that could make even a 10% difference in their revenue? What technology do you see in the foreseeable future that will be even a fifth of the size of the phone market?
Also, I wouldn’t be surprised if even the Apple Watch isn’t more successful than any other consumer electronics besides the smart phone and the PC. If you define success in terms of profitability.
I'd love a good new Macbook Pro I want to buy. Or even a good Mac Pro to start with.
I get it, Apple is in their Ballmer era, making tons of money so no one is allowed to argue. But it doesn't 'just work' anymore. They've fallen from grace, which admittedly is hard because they were so good its hard to always move upward. But they are in stagnation and a little embarrassment now. Tell me these keyboards are awesome? The touchbar useful. The battery life in exchange for thinness amazing.
Even if they did come up with a new Macbook Pro or MacPro that wouldn't qualify as "innovation" and definitely wouldn't answer the question:
Exactly what area should they invest in that could make even a 10% difference in their revenue? What technology do you see in the foreseeable future that will be even a fifth of the size of the phone market?
This is why Cook needs to go. I can't answer that question for them, and neither can he. Do you really think the future of Apple is subscription services? Thrilling.
The phone market has 66% worldwide penetration. It was clear years before the first iPhone came out that the mobile phone was going to be ubiquitous. As early as 2003-2004, many middle class middle school and high school kids had cell phones.
If it were that easy to find the next electronic device that would have 66% world wide penetration who do you propose is the person to find it?
People were clamoring for an iPod + phone for years before the iPhone came out. What electronic device are people clamoring for now?
> If it were that easy to find the next electronic device that would have 66% world wide penetration who do you propose is the person to find it?
Of course its not easy, but I would hope that the CEO of one of the most valuable companies on earth would have that kind of foresight and skill. That's what he is there for, or to hire people that can do that. They're not and that's my point. Time for some significant changes at the helm.
> People were clamoring for an iPod + phone for years before the iPhone came out. What electronic device are people clamoring for now?
These devices were already out before the iPhone, the iPhone was just more polished, and the ability to buy from iTunes was huge. This is where Jobs deserves his credit, not for inventing a device that was a phone, camera and music player in one, but for making it a good experience. These new MBP's are a horrible experience.
I’m not dismissing the faults of the MacBook. But who would replace Tim Cook that could come up with the next big thing? Some low level employee that no one ever heard of or would it be the CEO or VP of another consumer electronics company who also hasn’t come up with the next big thing for their company?
Seeing that they aren’t profitable yet, I wouldn’t call it a “success”. Once they can make a product at a price that people are willing to pay and make a profit. Then you can call it successful. Anybody can sell dollar bills for 95 cents.
Seeing that the Tesla is neither profitable nor ubiquitous- how do you define it as a “success”?
That would be Dan Riccio, wouldn‘t it? He is senior vice president of Hardware Engineering, directly answering to Tim Cook and leading the Mac, iPhone, iPad and iPod engineering teams.
Some of the current/recent failures that come to mind:
- The MacBook keyboard issues discussed here
- The MacPro disaster (thermal design issues -> no real update since almost six years)
- The The MBP 2018 thermal design issues
- The MBP „Flexgate“ (display connector design flaw)
Do you really think if the head of engineering went to Tim Cook and said that Ive’s design wasn’t technically feasible he would have been told to ship it anyway?
Maybe if the head of engineering had had another 6 months to test the keyboard design properly he could have concluded that it wasn't technically feasible. But at the time there was a lot of pressure to release a redesign of the MBP and probably the design of the case was already decided. In the end Apple wasn't able to make a proper keyboard to accommodate the specs but maybe it was too late to go back to the drawing board.
I'm speculating of course, but I very much doubt Apple are complete idiots. It's more probable that some circumstances forced them to release the redesign. It was a mistake of course, they should have only updated the specs of the 2015 model, maybe adding a TB3 port. But you know, hindsight is 20/20.
I imagine Apple has been working on a redesign with a new keyboard, but these things take a couple of years. Specially when the Mac is only 10% of Apple's revenue.
The thing with keyboards is that... well, for one, scissor switches are perfectly acceptable (the ones in the 2015 MBP and older, and pretty much all laptops today). Further, the thickness of the scissor mechanism can be made to be REALLY small. See: Acer Swift 7 (9.95mm thick, total), the XPS 13 (11.6mm thick, total) the X1 Carbon 6 (15.95mm thick, total), and pretty much any other Ultrabook. This is compared to the MacBook Pro, which is 14.9mm thick. Note that the X1 Carbon has TDP-up configured to 25W vs 28W on the MacBook Pro and the XPS 13 has TDP-up configured to 26W. Point being, thermal constraints did not force a keyboard redesign to fit the new form factor.
This feels like something Google would do: Take something that's perfectly functional, change it entirely, remove features, make it less functional, have it be buggy as hell, then release it while deprecating the old one. Now, sell it as an innovative new feature.
In short: the keyboard redesign does not appear to have any real reason behind it, and it's essentially change for the sake of change.
Maybe you are right. That would be consistent with the trashcan Mac Pro redesign.
Everyone was happy with the Mac Pro towers, a lot of people still use them today. The trashcan design IMO was more of an engineering/design statement at solving a self imposed problem rather than an existing one.
So, if rumors are to be believed, Apple is making a 180 on the new Mac Pro. Let's hope in a year or two we will have a new MBP with a good keyboard.
Tim: Hey X, I appreciate the hard work you're doing. But I've been busy with other meetings and slagging off Zuckerberg again. LOL. Why don't you touch base with Jony Ive and see if you two can't come up with something?
Apple operates on Form Over Function and has for years. The engineering team is subservient to the design team. You are seeing the consequences of it live. The engineering team knows the butterfly keyboard design is fundamentally flawed, but the design team has priority. There's only so much the engineers can do to make it Function while being constrained by Form.
This is the same type of corporate structural flaw as Boeing has, just without the loss of life for Apple. They needed to sell the plane without re-certifying, so the management demands some poor engineers work around it while having their hands tied behind their back.
Apple is notoriously secretive, and has unusually restrictive policies about discussing work outside the company. At best we can have ex-Apple engineers chiming in.
Without constraints and product goals, engineering is just wanking around with math. Every great product you've ever used started with a vision and then engineering was brought to bear to make the vision a reality.
There is a role for engineering to adjust the vision when necessary to comport with reality. It's not clear that was an issue with these keyboards as it's not clear that anyone knew up front that the butterfly mechanism would have these problems.
It's worth remembering that when Apple launched this keyboard, they didn't just say it's thin, they touted the engineering that went into it. I really, really doubt that this was a situation where the engineering team was banging the problem gong and was overruled. I know that's a popular way of thinking here on HN but I need at least some evidence to believe it.
This looks more like well-intentioned innovation that has just not worked out as well as they hoped, which happens sometimes, even with competent engineers. It's why Apple keeps such cash reserves on hand, so they can try new things and survive the ones that don't work out. Thankfully in this case, laptop keyboards are not life and death products.
Dan might be the guy who falls on his sword if anyone does, but I suspect that he is struggling with design constraints imposed from someone higher up. Someone obsessed with making everything as thin as possible -- which is arguably the root of many of Apple's hardware woes, large and small. Someone with a British accent who is fond of white rooms.
(Having said that, I think some of those issues are somewhat overstated. The keyboard is a real issue; the Mac Pro's thermal corner is a real issue, but it's one we have solid evidence is being addressed by both the forthcoming Mac Pro and the already-existing iMac Pro; AirPower is a debacle, but I don't know if that's really his purview; the rest...eh. I'm not saying they're not real, but I don't know how widespread they are as real issues. But with the exception of AirPower and the Mac Pro, all the issues you listed would probably have literally been solved by making everything 1mm thicker.)
I think Ive is preparing us for laptops without keyboards. Two screens, one that you type on. It's a dumb idea but I think they will go through with it.
It's quite possible that's what Ive personally would be happy with, but I don't think Apple's going to do that any time soon. As "courageous" as they like to be with jettisoning old technology, they're aware of what a PR fiasco their current generation of laptops has become. If anything, swapping back to low-profile scissor switches and quietly jettisoning the Touch Bar is the most likely next-gen MBP shift.
If Touch Bar were in addition to the function keys + Escape key, everyone would praise it as yet another brilliant Apple innovation, and rivals would be copying it the way every notebook nowadays looks like the late-2008 unibody Macbook Pro (and really, all the way back to the 2001 titanium PowerBook). But it's not, so they don't and they aren't.
It's possible. It's not impossible that if they'd just kept the hardware escape key and replaced the function keys with the Touch Bar it would have gotten a warmer reception; I think Apple really underestimated (a) how much of the MBP's loudest and most influential audience is comprised of developers or developer-adjacent techies, and (b) how many of those folks are really attached to their escape key. Personally I would be a lot happier with that -- in practice, I don't really miss the function keys and media keys, and I've actually used some of the Touch Bar functionality once in a while, but not having the escape key makes me angry and I'm not even a dedicated Vim user.
I think techies overestimate their influence. The Mac’s revenue was the highest it’s ever been last quarter. The lack of an escape key didn’t hurt sells.
Techies are a pretty big subset of MacBook Pro buyers, specifically, and that's the only line that has models in it with no escape key. The last quarter was the first one that the new MacBook Air was on sale -- the Air being one of Apple's most popular laptops and the one that had gone years without an update. That drove a lot of the sales that quarter. Were a lot of techies buying the Air? I don't know. But you know what the new Air has? An escape key. :)
The MBP 2018 design issue was fixed by a firmware update a week later.
The AirPower debacle was anything but. They noticed they had an unfixable design problem and cancelled the project. The alternative would have been something similar to the Samsung/Galaxy Fold issue. Shipping a bad product.
Even the Mac Pro not being updated was halfway because they thought the IMac Pro bad external GPUs was the answer. Honestly, for most people it could be and has gotten great review. They had a change of heart.
The alternative would have been something similar to the Samsung/Galaxy Fold issue.
Nope, there's another alternative: announce it when it's sitting in the backroom of every Apple store, like back in the old days. I'm sure Apple has their reasons for not doing that much anymore, but it would have avoided this very issue.
Even in the Jobs era they pre announced the “3Ghz G5” that never happened and the AppleTV that did. Of course they preannounced the iPhone by 6 months.
I'm not sure "debacle" is the right word for a product they announced, and then later decided they couldn't make, and so cancelled. There were no physical copies out there, no consumers wasted money on it, it was just... a cancelled product.
I'm convinced Apple has continued to "flatten" their keyboards in order to transition towards iPad-like devices replacing them entirely. For years, they've stated some variation of the following when speaking about the iPad:
"This is the clearest expression of our vision of the future of personal computing, a simple multitouch piece of glass that instantly transforms into anything you want it to be."
So in their quest to shepherd users towards this vision, they've made design concessions which have hurt their existing users.
I think that the yearly slimming down of devices was just an easy way out to having to do real innovation. Apple wanted to prove that they were getting better and better at something every year. They chose slimming down devices because it is an easier problem to solve than inventing something new and game-changing.
Haptic feedback to find the 'keycaps' is fine and all, but if you've ever tried to type like a human on an ipad for more than a few minutes you discovery that having a thing under your finger that has some elasticity to it is SUPER IMPORTANT.
The problem itself is a deceased equine that I'll not further bludgeon here, but the comments section of that story was interesting in its level of apologetics. "Hey, they're fixing it, quit complaining." In 30 years of owning laptop computers, having never once had a keyboard go bad including the coffee-spilled ones, a speck of dust renders my keyboard unusable and I'm just supposed to suck it up without complaint? (Hypothetically; I personally have a MBP, but not a newer one.)
I lied, I'll take one whack at this dead horse: with support costs continuing to escalate (in-store inventory, training, and employees aren't free), now will you fix the keyboards for realsies this time?
One of, if not the biggest problem with many of those Apple fanatic is that Apple could do no wrong. And this is speaking as someone who like Apple but increasingly irritated by their action.
I have a lot of admiration for what Apple has done but in the post Jobsian Era they're focus seems to have shifted from elevating the personal computing experience to reducing over costs and it's disappointing to say the least.
You can reduce costs without sacrificing quality by identifying inefficiencies within your organization and streamlining them. Tim Cook made a name for himself by optimizing the logistical side of Apple. The cost reductions Apple has done have less impact on material finish and quality of the solution, and more impact reliability, repair-ability, and maintainability.
As a cost reduction technique, they rivet the keyboard to the upper chassis of the Macbook rather than the comparatively expensive process of tapping holes and using screws. This has no impact on product performance and quality, but if you happen to use an inferior keyboard then it makes repairs exceptionally difficult. As a result Apple is averse to performing repairs because what could have been an inexpensive keyboard swap now requires replacing the entire uni-body chassis which is an expensive machined part.
Another example is where the Macbook display FRC is soldered directly to the panel to avoid a connector that costs a penny in volume. This reduces manufacturing costs and part counts but introduces the risk that any issues with the FRC require the entire display to be replaced. That's exactly what happened because they made the FRC a few millimeters too short. Apple said that display failures were isolated and not a manufacturing defect however this year's model features an FRC that's a few millimeters longer.
These types of optimizations to the product might save a dollar or two in the BOM but they completely fail to take into consideration support requirements they introduce. Riveting a $ keyboard to a $$$$ machined aluminum chassis makes you adverse to even acknowledging an issue with the keyboard because you'll then have to replace the entire assembly. Forgoing a connector and soldering a $ FRC directly to the $$$$ display means that when the FRC fails due to stress from an engineering fault, you pretend it's an isolated issue to avoid having to replaced entire display assemblies on thousands of devices.
they aren't fixing it though, just kicking the can down the road. I have two coworkers that have had the replacement to the new model butterfly a few months back. Their keyboards are already failing again.
There is a good reason I stick with my mid-2014 macbook.
It's an interesting dilemma for the consumer when subsequent failure happens so soon after repair. If the product is under warranty, original or extended, I think the equivalent of automobile Lemon Law should apply: consumer is entitled to a permanent fix, manufacturer is entitled to three attempts to do so within 90 days; if it's still not working or subsequently fails, the consumer is entitled to a 100% refund.
I'm not aware of that being the case in any U.S. state. How does a consumer protect whatever rights they have? 50% off an external keyboard isn't good enough but people have work to do. Why bother getting yet another "fix" when it too likely fails in a few months? I'd want to make sure that if my warranty is about to expire that I've got documentation that Apple agrees the defect exists and that I'm entitled to a better permanent fix.
Consumer protection laws are important. This finders keepers nonsense makes people angry and they aren't just going to reduce their trust in Apple, their trust in the industry and society is diminished as well.
> I think the equivalent of automobile Lemon Law should apply: consumer is entitled to a permanent fix, manufacturer is entitled to three attempts to do so within 90 days; if it's still not working or subsequently fails, the consumer is entitled to a 100% refund.
This is indeed the law in many European countries, at least it is in Turkey, which sources its jurisprudence largely from there. I have successfully used this in TR against a Toshiba laptop (motherboard issue) circa 2004 as barely a high-school kid, much to the chagrin of the distributor's legal team lead. In the end they paid the retail amount in full, though it took a bit of time.
It's hard not to suspect Apple is semi-officially throwing in the towel on the butterfly key switch with this repair policy. It's gone through several iterations across several different models and they clearly haven't been able to get it to a point of adequate reliability. So the answer to your question is probably "yes," to the degree that Apple is going to do an actual redesign that they think fixes the keyboard for realsies.
(Personally, I would say the answer is "just put the damn Magic Keyboard in the laptops and get over your pretty pretty selves about the extra 0.5mm," but I have an unfortunate suspicion that's way too simple.)
Is the magic keyboard substantially thinner than their old laptop keyboards? I would rather they just went back to those. They feel great.
Typing on the magic keyboards is only marginally better than typing on the butterfly keyboards on their laptops. We have one in the conference room at work and I hate whenever I have to use it...
Edit: To clarify, Apple's newer "magic" Keyboards aren't the same as their older desktop keyboards. They use a butterfly mechanism just like the laptops, and have barely more travel.
The Magic Keyboard has about half the travel of the old laptop keyboard. The butterfly switches have half the travel of the MK. (IIRC, it's something like 2 mm, 1mm, and 0.5mm travel respectively.) The MK does not use butterfly switches, it uses ultra-low-profile scissor switches.
Obviously, this is a YMMV thing. I personally just tolerate the butterfly switches, but prefer the Magic Keyboard to the older Apple laptop switches. This is not a preference on my part for low travel switches, either -- my favorite keyboards are actually mechanical ones. But (to me) the MK is the best scissor switch keyboard I've ever used, save for its dumb arrow key layout.
>> having never once had a keyboard go bad including the coffee-spilled ones,
It can happen. I spilled a sugary soda over my plastic Macbook almost 10y ago now, and fried the keyboard. It was easily fixed by ordering a refurb part from OWC and following the steps in their repair video.
The idea of DIY'ing something like that today on an Apple product seems very quaint.
I have the new MBP 2018 with touchbar. I’ve gone to the store 4 times already, I am scheduled next week to return to the store for the same display issues as well as keyboard issues.
They’ve exchanged the MOBO, display, shell, and keyboard effectively giving me a new computer.
I purchased the extended Apple Care and will probably be left hanging when the 3 year mark comes around.
Definetly happier with my 2011 Macbook Air. Can’t recommend buying the new one.
>I purchased the extended Apple Care and will probably be left hanging when the 3 year mark comes around.
If they extend the program to include this model, you might get 4 years instead of 3. But yeah, the resale value for these machines is going to be terrible. A laptop that might be worth $1k fully-functioning is worth at most $300 if there’s a 60% chance that it will need at least one keyboard repair that costs $700. There’s the monetary cost, the hassle, and the adverse selection problem (that people who are selling their computers are more likely to be in the 60% that had problems, since if it’s working fine you wouldn’t be as likely to sell).
Ultimately these machines will probably end up being purchased for use as desktop machines, exclusively used with external keyboards.
> now will you fix the keyboards for realsies this time?
Hopefully with the quick turnaround more people will bring theirs in and get the failure rate numbers up closer to reality vs. the "small number" of failures they seem to think there is.
In my country (Oz) we have a consumer law that allows for the return of a product "not fit for purpose". This keyboard issue is definitely that.
From a link in the article:
> The program also only serves to service affected keyboards at no charge for up to four years from their purchase date, but replacement keyboards are just as likely to be affected by durability issues.
I'm on the hunt for a new laptop, and would prefer macOS, but this keyboard issue shows how the mbp are simply "not fit for purpose".
The only laptop that is free of this problem is the mba 2017 edition (5th gen i5/ i7) at a heavily inflated price.
I’ve had to act on this consumer protection act (at least New Zealand’s equivalent which I think is very similar) when my MacBook trackpad stopped registering taps and Apple were very reluctant to follow their obligations as required by law.
It took a lot of handholding to even educate Apple about their legal obligations to consumers in New Zealand.
Eventually after threats of sending copies of letter to consumer protection office they agreed to pay for materials, but I had to pay for labour costs for the fix.
Legally, they were required to pay for everything but I gave in because the labor cost was pretty cheap (I think around $80).
> Eventually after threats of sending copies of letter to consumer protection office they agreed to pay for materials, but I had to pay for labour costs for the fix.
> Legally, they were required to pay for everything but I gave in because the labor cost was pretty cheap (I think around $80).
The Australian Ombudsman for Consumer Rights is super easy to deal with.
Fire off an email that shows you've contacted the right people, and that they haven't fixed the issue.
The ombudsman steps in and leans on the organisation, and you'll get a resolution within two weeks usually, four if they try and play hardball with the department... Which is a bad idea.
The next contact you'll get is the organisation apologising and trying to fix the issue, because if they don't do it to your satisfaction there are serious threats they have to deal with.
The org is required to pay for parts, labour and any required shipping. And you don't have to deal with the org directly - it's whoever you purchased from.
It's a painless process here, and means you don't have to deal with the stress of someone like Apple refusing to help you. At the first sign of "no we're not helping the way we should", fire an email and sit back and let the Ombudsman handle it for you.
Yes, I'm sure they were all just sitting around drumming their fingers on a table until Tim Cook walked in and told them to make keyboards that break super easily.
It's said that design is the art of compromise and that perfection is the enemy of the good. Unfortunately, Apple seems to have largely forgotten this. The 12" Macbook was a perfect example of this: in the quest for thinness, it was simply too much compromise.
The 13" Macbook Air (2011+) was, to me, basically a perfect laptop. Powerful enough for most needs, light enough for most needs and not too expensive. I feel completely differently if a $1000 laptop dies or is lost or stolen vs a $4000 laptop.
The USB-C debacle is another example of this. Instead of a laptop that does basically everything you now need to carry a dock or dongle or set of cables instead. How does this make sense? And let's not forget that we lost MagSafe with this too.
Sometimes I just want to throw my Macbook out the window.
I just picked up a couple USB-C to USB-A/-B/mini/micro cables for my external devices at a ridiculously irrelevant price and threw away the old ones in a box. No more dongles for me.
The number of times I needed (or be willing to, random USB keys just don’t get to touch my computer) to plug in a foreign device during the last three years (even before I was provided a new MBP three months ago) is exactly zero.
A 14 inch Thinkpad X1 Carbon is as light, has the same thickness, all the ports you need, double the processing power, AND has a really good long travel keayboard.
Maybe Apple made a compromise. But if other companies can build the same laptop without compromise Apple must do better.
It also has serious quality issues [1]. I've seen the X1 and it's nice but, honestly, I've yet to see anything that compares to the Macbook tracpad, even the latest one that fakes haptic feedback.
Maybe. I do not have these problems. But if something happens I am sure Lenovo will honor my 3 year on site support contract with them. I don't have to send the notebook to them and I don't have to go to a genius bar with an appointment. They just come to me this or the next day and fix the problem.
You can always get a bad device. Happened to me with a faulty MacBook Display too. What matters in this case is the service contract you have with the manufacturer. And some companies have stellar service if you pay for it.
I've got an X1 carbon that developed bad pixels. (Anecdata I know, but I've never had an Apple device, out of more tha na dozen over a decade, with a bad screen, while every Lenovo machine I've ever had, five now, has some level of bad Q&A with the screen, usually backlight bleed.) They replaced the panel on-site, which was good, but not the bezel (which is a sticker and is now peeling off slightly from having been peeled off and reattached).
The macbook (not air) is a bit over ten percent lighter than the x1. I don't think it is worth it, for reasons you name, and run x1s myself. Still, Apple does offer the lightest ultrabook on the market, and it may derive from the nasty keyboard tradeoff.
For the Macbook the keyboard and ports might be a good tradeoff and it is indeed a marvelous little machine. But I would not compare a X1 to a MacBook because the X1 has a 4 Core CPU and is actively cooled. It sits somewhere between the Air and 13 inch Pro.
I'm not quite sure quite how ultrabook is defined, but if something like the GPD MicroPC counts, it weights about half of what the Macbook does (400 grams vs 920 grams), while also having way more ports (HDMI, ethernet, micro-SD, 3 USB-A , USB-C, and a serial port). Granted GPD devices are kind of weird and not directly comparable to a Macbook— it's probably the only laptop keyboard worse than Apple's current one, and the trackpad isn't in the same league as Apple's.
At what point does the difference in weight become entirely irrelevant? Is a 3lb laptop vs a 2lb laptop even within the margin of error of how heavy a backpack feels? That's gotta be close to the weight difference of whether or not I had lunch a given day.
The MBP has a far superior screen and touchpad though. The touchpad on the X1 Carbon didn't have good palm detection either, at least on Linux. Also the MBP just feels much more premium.
I had an X1 Carbon for work and when I used it on my lap the keyboard would randomly stop working. I realized this was because it didn't work if the laptop was only supported on the back part.
I’r rather be able to change the cord as I see fit and use any spec compliant charger than be tied to MagSafe chargers that get chewed on by the cat and have the cord get shorter and shorter as I cut and solder a new section.
To each his own. (BTW you can get MagSafe clips for USB-C, which is a testament to this standard’s modularity)
Thickness was, I believe, a factor in this. As in MagSafe 2 came about (over MagSafe 1) to reduce the depth of the socket as well as it's thickness. Many seem to have forgotten that MagSafe 2 was actually worse than the first one (eg it would fall out on its own more).
It was removed because MagSafe was quite literally the #1 source of hardware failure on those machines. It was worth it when it prevented the machine itself from taking a fatal tumble, but with power ports available on both sides of the laptop (as well as increased battery life), MagSafe is no longer worth it.
Was it really that bad? The only time I had it fail computer-side was when I noticed a staple on the magnet. The charger itself is shit, but that's a problem with Apple's shitty wire shielding and I'm sure their USB-C charger will also split open, fray, and break every 2 years of regular use.
Yeah it was. My understanding is the biggest single driver of non-accidental-damage AppleCare issues was the MagSafe charger no longer charging. I personally had that issue multiple times with MagSafe laptops, where it would get to the point of needing a lot of jigging and detaching/reattaching for it to start charging, and more than once I didn't even realize it wasn't charging until I got the "your computer is about to run out of power" dialog.
It's infuriating. I had to sell my 2017 MBP and buy a 2018 model because I wasn't in a situation where I could afford to be without a machine for a week or more. Otherwise I'd still be happily using the original machine.
I was once a big evangelist for Apple laptops. Now I tell people to get something else unless they're absolutely tied to macOS. I'll definitely be taking a very hard look at other, non Apple options when this guy gives up the ghost.
Apple doesn't sell a single computer today that isn't crippled by serious hardware limitations and pointless compromises. I've been a Mac user since the late 1980s, but Apple no longer makes anything I actually want to buy.
Not the parent poster, but I already have a desktop machine with no compromises. It's a custom-built arch linux machine with the best screen, keyboard, and mouse I could buy.
Desktops are solved, we don't need a savior for desktops because the modularity allows us to combine the best parts from various manufacturers.
We need a savior for laptops where the keyboard, mouse, screen, and components are all embedded, and there's no way to separate them.
I consider the iMac a convenient machine but it's a bit like buying a tv with a vcr built in and a keurig machine built-in too.
A few things: The memory and SSD can't be replaced by the user, meaning pro users are looking at potentially significant downtime if these items fail. The machine isn't serviceable at all without removing a screen attached by adhesive, a process that can cause breakage. The screen is also small by the standards of many pro users (I've not personally used a screen below 30" in years), and the design of the VESA mount is reportedly problematic. There are no Nvidia BTO options, and therefore no CUDA support. There are numerous reports of the T2 chip causing USB audio issues. The AIO design also limits the thermal headroom of an ostensibly "professional" workstation.
It is great product. But there are few compromises:
1. Thermals. Apple prioritized silence over performance. So they like to run cpus at high temperatures and start fans only than it is absolute necessary. It limits cpu clocks and performance. And although it has great cooling solution it worse than it could be that if it was just standard desktop.
And it uses intel cpus that are pretty hot because they use older technology node.
2. CUDA. There are no nvidia support for Mojave if i am not mistaken. So there isn't support for CUDA. It should make some stuff very hard or impossible. For example ML training.
3. Price. It is very expensive. Hackintosh build including great monitor with intel + amd gpus will be twice as cheap.
The new Mac Minis seem like a pretty good middle ground, user upgradable RAM, decently powerful Desktop grade CPUs, and no hardware keyboards to fail. Admittedly, the SSD tied to the T2 chip is a slight issue, but otherwise if you're tied to the Apple ecosystem, it seems like a good fit.
I've been super happy with mine since last fall, and just this week, upgraded the 8GB of ram to 32GB myself, took a whole 15 mins to insert it and put everything back together.
> And let's not forget that we lost MagSafe with this too.
MagSafe has to have been one of the best ideas in all of personal computing, and now they've just completely abandoned it. The least Apple could do is give up their patents on it; if they're not going to use it, at least let someone else try their hand at it. It's a total pipe-dream, but wouldn't it be great if the next USB standard mandated detachable connectors? It would never happen because of cost concerns, but a man can dream.
There's a kickstarter for a magnetic USB-C connector -- there has many of those, of course, but this one says it's fully compatible including Thunderbolt.
MagSafe was nice, but I have a 20,000 mAh USB-C power bank in my bag that is able to charge my 15-inch MacBook Pro. Got an USB-C to USB-C cable for it from a random store in the mall for a reasonable price, since it had no Apple logos on the side of it.
A "pro" machine shouldn't be making these types of compromises. My last two laptops (ThinkPad 13, Dell 7490) both have the ability to charge either with the built-in charging connector or USB-C.
>The 12" Macbook was a perfect example of this: in the quest for thinness, it was simply too much compromise.
I think you need to put it in perspective. The MacBook Retina was just like the first MacBook Air, it wasn't the best or good enough when it launched but It was designed with technology coming soon in the next 2 years, the promise of Intel 10nm in mind and WiFi 6 / 802.11ax. Both were suppose to come in 2016 / 2017. The 10nm, and its subsequent 7nm CPU would give Quad Core Intel CPU in a fanless design that is as powerful as a 2014 Quad Core MacBook Pro. And 802.11ax, 802.11ad or 802.11ay in the 60Ghz. The first would finally give Gigabit Ethernet speed in a wireless environment the 2nd ones would allow Wireless Transfer in dozens of Gbps within direct line of sight. For Macbook's target audience, those computation power was more than enough.
Fast forward to now, not only Intel wont have 10nm ULP CPU in massive quantities by end of 2019, it is likely not even the same 10nm as it was originally scheduled / promised in pre 2015 meetings. WiFi 6 / 802.11ax has been met with delays after delays to the point the Working Group literally force their way out push for commercial roll out. Last time I checked their meeting notes it still has thousand of issues unresolved. Much more than all the previous Draft WiFi standards.
One theory I have, was that Apple could not afford to anger, complain or make any signs of hardballing in their Mac department as they have a much bigger grand plan, to work with Intel together on the iPhone Modem and attack the Qualcomm business model. Since they have to decide their iPhone 7 Modem in Summer 2015, the thoughts and grand plan must have happen earlier, some evidence suggest this started in 2014 as it was shown in the case between Qualcomm and Apple.
And it was one reason I suggest switching to ARM on Mac doesn't make sense because Apple relies too much on Intel's Modem on its iPhone. And the iPhone business is the bread and butter of Apple. Now that everything has been settled I strongly believe Apple Mac will announced their ARM move within 30 months. But this is another topic for discussion.
i hated those keyboards with a passion. by far the worst laptop keyboard i have ever touched.
comparing the new keyboard to the old one is like comparing living on earth to the void of space.
Now if only the nearest Apple Store wasn't 4 hours away... I used to have hope that they would open more Apple Stores, but Apple Japan has now even closed all the stores outside of the 5 largest cities in the country.
edit: apple keynotes piss me off because they seem to only care about making sexy flagship stores in cities that already have stores just brag about how awesome they are. All I need is a normal store in a mall where I can buy stuff and have it fixed in a reasonable time with reasonably competent staff. Just makes it seem they're pivoting into a luxury brand instead of a technology brand /rant from a Mac user for 29 years
Access to Apple Stores is a particularly difficult issue here in Canada. On the East Coast, I'm a half-day from the nearest Apple Store, and there's no main-in repair program.
My only option is the "apple-approved" is the local Staples. Staples!?
Only some of the problems are easily demonstrated.
The keys coming completely off when you turn the laptop over is ideal because the Genius can't really argue that one. You can cause this failure just by habitually pressing on the bottom portion of a key. For me, it's always the T key first.
But god forbid you only have a problem with the double-fires which doesn't seem to present if you just hammer one key 20 times (which they do in shop).
I've had the entire front panel replaced for free now twice (so, includes a new battery as well). And I've received my fixed laptop in the mail after a one day wait which is a spectacular experience if it weren't for such a debacle. But I'm nervous about the keyboard repair program ending once my laptop is three years old.
Don't know if it's typical, but I had a double-fire problem that was intermitent, and, of course, didn't show up when I tried to demonstrate it in the store.
They said, no problem, we believe you, and replaced the keyboard anyway.
We don't have Apple Stores in Ireland -- just CompuB which is an authorized seller of Apple products. Does this apply to authorized merchants such as them who can represent Apple?
There is 1 Apple Store in all the country in a fancy suburb of Mexico City (Santa Fe). Even if you live in Mexico City it might take you 1-2 hours to get there depending on traffic.
Otherwise there are a couple of authorized resellers (iShop, Compudabo, etc) that also give official tech support. It's a real disgrace. I know colleagues that have faulty keyboards and these authorized services have refused to repair the keyboard with the excuse that they cannot reproduce the issue.
I wonder if thinness was a KPI that Apple was just blindly tracking and doing whatever they could to improve. They always brag about it with a giant slide whenever they announce a new laptop. It is true that at some point, the stupid thing doesn't need to be any thinner.
In my case, i started taking an external keyboard on business trips. What a waste...you save .5mm on a crappy keyboard and introduce a major peripheral to lug around.
just got mine one repaired returned today - so cool - a computer you can write stuff on without constant fear.
only thing is, my substitute thinkpad x230 with (stripped down) linux mint reminded me how a good computer (& keyboard) can really feel, so i will prop. use that one for coding, and the mac retina display one for netflix & keynote.
saw the report. they tried to replace the keys that did not work (the most) (0, space, enter, arrow up). did not help, reduced error rate about 50%. and some other keys failed, too. replaced the whole case-top including keyboard. looks shiny and new. wonder for how long the new keyboard goldilocks state will hold this time.
1. they’re crazy thick. i travel a lot, and i need good cpu and ram and very light, very thin laptops. something like the huawei, or any of the macbook pros.
I love linux! It keeps me on my toes. I get to reinstall my OS every few months. (NVidia Drivers die after update to kernel. nvidia-current doesn't work with graphics card.)
Exactly. MacOS is unix, has as great CLI, and full support from all major vendors so I don't waste my time doing something bonkers like fighting to get Word to work.
The two things keeping me with Apple for computing are consistency (surprisingly a problem with many PC vendors) and yes, macOS.
Linux might be ok if its nvidia drivers weren’t so flaky, its Broadcom wireless drivers didn’t break with random system updates, and its app ecosystem put a bigger emphasis on high quality UX and made up its mind about UI conventions, but I don’t see any of that improving any time soon…
Proprietary hardware and software is fine! Don't feel guilty about not using Linux. It's simply not for you. Be happy with your choice with Apple. You can still support and use FOSS software on those computers if you like.
my laptop is pretty much extension of my hands, i eat with it, sleep with it etc.. the keyboard breaking because of breadcrumb going in and me begging apple to fix it, waiting and not being able to code was just too much for me
1 year ago i tried to fix it myself, broke the space bar crimps on 6 month old mbp15, and they told me because i tried to fix it myself i have to pay 500E for the repair.
keep in mind i make my own keyboards, i did not even think i will not be capable to remove a bread crumb from under the space bar.
When I realised I have to use my top end 2018 MBP with external keyboard only, I decided to spec out a new PC.
After being Mac exclusive since early 2000s, and having spent an ungodly amount of money on their gear over the years.
They have a problem, and my patience is gone. No interest in a new Mac, and I can see myself leaving their ecosystem entirely now that the macOS cord is cut.
It's impossible to touch it and know that I actually landed on the key. Since most of my typing is by feel, I need to know that I landed on the key. Often my typing is seconds ahead of the display, and always behind of the decision making logic in my brain.
I'm a vi user. I thought that maybe with a few months of just trusting the location on the touch bar that I'd get used to it. After all that 'training' I can land on the key about 90% of the time, which is about 9.9999% not close enough. And certainly I cannot consistently land on it with any other finger than the left ring finger when coming directly from the home row. My hands aren't always consistently on the home row, so that's also a problem.
I have come to like the touchbar. But the Esc key needs to be promoted to a real key. Tactile response matters.
I use vim daily and this isn't an issue. People have issues that if it's not physical it's not real, but the "Button" is there and functions as an escape key nonetheless.
I admit I still sometimes have a momentary question when I go to hit Esc of "did I really hit it?" and yet I have unfailingly hit Esc 100% of the time I try. It helps that the TouchBar feels different than the computer body around it, so I can reliably tell that I hit the TouchBar, and the Esc hit area is so large that I'm simply not going to miss it.
Hello I’m a MBP owner with no keyboard problems after 2 years and I’m actually very happy to know that if I ever got an issue it will be replaced for free thanks to the extended repair program.
I am really alone???
Are others commenters all dissatisfied customers or just ranters who don’t work on macOS anyway ? Very curious...
How many premium laptops have you owned that had keyboard issues? I've never had a keyboard issue on any laptop I've ever owned. Are you sure you'll be happy to waste an entire afternoon waiting for something which should not break to be fixed?
I work in an office with a dozen 15" 2017 MBPs and no one's had keyboard issues. The only issue they have is their HDD keeps running out of space and they forget to offload to the network shares when they've completed their projects. My own 15" MBP of the same year hasn't had a keyboard issue (yet?) and I'm on it 6-7 days a week.
They probably would not be getting so much flak today if they'd owned up to the problems and offered a quick, inexpensive repair solution when they first started appearing, way back in 2015. But instead they persisted with the flawed design for years, giving owner complaints the "you're holding it wrong" treatment and adding the flawed keyboard design to more models even after it should have been clear it had serious problems.
The longer you let a boil like this fester, the more painful it's going to be when you finally lance it.
About a month, my early 2013 MacBook Pro died so I replaced it with a brand new 2018 MacBook Air with the latest generation butterfly keys.
I'd previously tried out someone else's 2016 MacBook Pro with the first generation butterfly keyboard. I actually immediately liked the new keyboard and knew I'd get used to it almost immediately if I ever switched.
10 days into my 2018 MacBook Air ownership, I started experiencing "sticky" keys with characters repeating themselves and/or not registering. This was on a brand new computer that had always remained closed when not in use and hadn't even moved from my desk.
Luckily, I was within the 14-day return period and I was able to walk into an Apple store and swap out the defective unit for another new MBA that (so far) doesn't have the sticky key issue.
I am now close to the end of the return period for my second MBA and I live in fear that the issue will present itself and I'll need to be without my computer while some Genius Bar employee tears apart my brand new $2,000 laptop and follows some mitigation procedure that is not guaranteed to last long.
I believe Apple has the resources to make this keyboard mechanism work but has not allocated those resources appropriately.
If I was you, I'd return the computer and get a refund , purchase a second hand laptop, 2015 MacBook Air or maybe a ThinkPad and wait for a year or two. Apple have legit gone downhill and your better off with something a little older but tried and battle tested.
I have both, the work machine has a butterfly keyboard. It has already been swapped out once and I “self repaired” the next time it happened. I hate the machine, I hate typing on it. I want to upgrade to an older machine.
You're happy you'll be covered when this issue arises in your MBP but it took a lot of frustration and work from other people to get Apple to this point. So it's unfortunate that you're satisfied with Apple's performance because you won't be as negatively impacted by this as other have been.
Would you feel differently had this problem happened to you before they instituted this policy and had to waste your own time and money repairing their problem?
Personally I'm disappointed in Apple and know they can do better. The proof is my 2012 MBP sitting right here on my desk.
Now if only they fixed the display cable issues that require replacing half the laptop (and $500+) to fix. For a tiny cable. Because it was soldered on.
This is basically my last personal macbook, it's just not worth the money for repairs and hassle.
I wasn't trying to praise Apple, but rather admonish them. They have consistently denied there was an issue and yet silently fixed the issue on the back end. To me, that's really bad form and demonstrates contempt for your customers.
The sad thing is that it wasn't even fixed after they added those membrane, it only reduced the failure rate by a small margin. You can still find pretty much just as many reports online of the same failures.
I would respect Apple a lot more if they would just accept the defeat and publicly declare that their butterfly keyboard was a mistake and a complete failure. It was a bold experiment, and they don't always work out but that's okay! How could they not realize their stubbornness was precisely the reason why many customers have turned their back on these new MBPs? I can't expect them to be perfect or correct all the time, but it's more important to be able to accept when you're this wrong.
This attitude from Apple most of all is why I threw in the towel and stopped giving them a pass.
Customer with LTV of almost six figures deciding to walk, but they won’t care, and don’t realise their moat is crumbling with everyone like me who decides it’s just a little too expensive and some of the qualities that made up for it in the past are no longer there.
I had a much lower LTV and I used to be a fan and wanted to work for Apple. My attitude changed around the time of the "I'm a PC" ads. Back then I didn't have much money so I only had a PC, and I could also customize my PC. I knew how not to mess stuff up, so their attack ads felt like an attack on me. I'm much more wealthy now, so my LTV could have been higher... (I've certainly spent a lot more money since then on computers than people do on cars) oh well.
Do we have any idea how they are doing this on a technical level? I was under the impression the butterfly keyboards were very difficult to replace, to the point where large pieces of the computer had to be replaced alongside it.
My 2016 MacBook Pro has the best keyboard I've ever used in my life. It is a joy to type on. Of all the things that needed "improving" in my laptop, the keyboard would have been dead last.
Hell, if they were still selling 2016 MPBs today with the exact same specs, I'd take that over a 2018 one.
Sorry, yes, got the date wrong. "About this Mac" says:
"MacBook Pro (Retina, 15-inch, Mid 2014)"
I guess I've had it longer than I realized! Still holding on to it desperately hoping Apple ships a new MacBook with a fixed keyboard before this one dies.
Louis Rossman has made great videos ranting about Apple's shitty hardware. I especially appreciate the one about the ribbon cable inside the screen to chassis interface that was a bit too short on the 2016 MBP models and while Apple didn't warranty or recall all the broken machines, they did lengthen that cable in follow-on models.
These laptops run $3000+ Apple should uphold some standards.
My current one is supplied by my company, but I don't think I am buying one for personal use. The 2015 MBP was the pinnacle.
The touch bar is useless fluff, btw. Soldered on SSDs? GTFO!
I just took my MacBook Pro in for butterfly keyboard issues and was quoted 5-7 business days, and I have coverage under Apple Care. I haven't taken it in yet because I mostly use an external keyboard and that would be extremely disruptive to my work, maybe I'll try again and see if they can do it in store.
The keyboard is the most important part of a mobile computer. The fact that Apple has released arguably the worst keyboard since the 1980s in the MBP line these last few years to make it thinner shows how much they really care about their customer base.
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[ 3.0 ms ] story [ 204 ms ] threadhttps://www.macrumors.com/2019/04/24/iphone-4-4s-5-power-but...
They can even be forgiven for having a systemic hardware issue that only becomes apparent once you have millions of devices out there. The keyboard issue is different. They knew they had an issue when they released the 12” MacBook but they kept introducing new models with the same issue. They could have easily just done a speed bump and kept the 2015 design. No one was clamoring for USB C or the Touch Bar.
Even though I think AntennaGate was overblown and they did keep selling the GSM iPhone 4 with no changes, they did make changes to the design nine months later for the CDMA iPhone 4.
A magic fairy doesn't instantly swap out the defective phone with a good one (and transfer all the files) the instant the problem occurs.
Some people are in countries with no Apple stores, some people are using it as a camera on a week-long backpacking trip in the middle of nowhere. Some people have families and jobs they have to tend to and don't want to waste what little precious freetime they have on this BS, etc.
Edit: and not everyone in the U.S. who has free time, lives near an Apple Store or can get an appointment next day.
I used to not have responsibilities, and I wondered why everyone has a hard time with things. Now I have responsibilities and can see why.
As far as swapping out files. It literally is a matter of clicking “backup” on one phone and choosing to restore on another one.
No. It is not.
Please tap "backup" on my dead phone. Please tap "backup" on my working phone when I have no computer or Internet to back it up to.
The last time it was plugged into a wall outlet, in an area with no Internet coverage? Or what about that irreplaceable photo I just took since the last time I plugged it into my computer, that I need right now and can't access until my phone is fixed?
Now we're just nitpicking each other. Hopefully you can at least see that they aren't magical devices that will solve everyone's problems. They do break, and like with any device that breaks, it can be a real inconvience for its user.
Maybe Apple shipped faulty switches knowingly. But they're also an awfully big juicy target for less scrupulous lawyers.
Tim Cook. His time is up, Apple needs new leadership so they can move past their Ballmer era
There is no next iPhone type product on the horizon. The smart phone already has 66% penetration in the world. Anything that Apple introduces is going to pale in comparison.
Also, I wouldn’t be surprised if even the Apple Watch isn’t more successful than any other consumer electronics besides the smart phone and the PC. If you define success in terms of profitability.
I get it, Apple is in their Ballmer era, making tons of money so no one is allowed to argue. But it doesn't 'just work' anymore. They've fallen from grace, which admittedly is hard because they were so good its hard to always move upward. But they are in stagnation and a little embarrassment now. Tell me these keyboards are awesome? The touchbar useful. The battery life in exchange for thinness amazing.
Exactly what area should they invest in that could make even a 10% difference in their revenue? What technology do you see in the foreseeable future that will be even a fifth of the size of the phone market?
If it were that easy to find the next electronic device that would have 66% world wide penetration who do you propose is the person to find it?
People were clamoring for an iPod + phone for years before the iPhone came out. What electronic device are people clamoring for now?
Of course its not easy, but I would hope that the CEO of one of the most valuable companies on earth would have that kind of foresight and skill. That's what he is there for, or to hire people that can do that. They're not and that's my point. Time for some significant changes at the helm.
> People were clamoring for an iPod + phone for years before the iPhone came out. What electronic device are people clamoring for now?
These devices were already out before the iPhone, the iPhone was just more polished, and the ability to buy from iTunes was huge. This is where Jobs deserves his credit, not for inventing a device that was a phone, camera and music player in one, but for making it a good experience. These new MBP's are a horrible experience.
Seeing that the Tesla is neither profitable nor ubiquitous- how do you define it as a “success”?
Some of the current/recent failures that come to mind:
- The MacBook keyboard issues discussed here
- The MacPro disaster (thermal design issues -> no real update since almost six years)
- The The MBP 2018 thermal design issues
- The MBP „Flexgate“ (display connector design flaw)
- The AirPower debacle
- The iPad Pro 3rd gen. „Bendgate“
Maybe if the head of engineering had had another 6 months to test the keyboard design properly he could have concluded that it wasn't technically feasible. But at the time there was a lot of pressure to release a redesign of the MBP and probably the design of the case was already decided. In the end Apple wasn't able to make a proper keyboard to accommodate the specs but maybe it was too late to go back to the drawing board.
I'm speculating of course, but I very much doubt Apple are complete idiots. It's more probable that some circumstances forced them to release the redesign. It was a mistake of course, they should have only updated the specs of the 2015 model, maybe adding a TB3 port. But you know, hindsight is 20/20.
I imagine Apple has been working on a redesign with a new keyboard, but these things take a couple of years. Specially when the Mac is only 10% of Apple's revenue.
This feels like something Google would do: Take something that's perfectly functional, change it entirely, remove features, make it less functional, have it be buggy as hell, then release it while deprecating the old one. Now, sell it as an innovative new feature.
In short: the keyboard redesign does not appear to have any real reason behind it, and it's essentially change for the sake of change.
Everyone was happy with the Mac Pro towers, a lot of people still use them today. The trashcan design IMO was more of an engineering/design statement at solving a self imposed problem rather than an existing one.
So, if rumors are to be believed, Apple is making a 180 on the new Mac Pro. Let's hope in a year or two we will have a new MBP with a good keyboard.
Tim: Hey X, I appreciate the hard work you're doing. But I've been busy with other meetings and slagging off Zuckerberg again. LOL. Why don't you touch base with Jony Ive and see if you two can't come up with something?
This is the same type of corporate structural flaw as Boeing has, just without the loss of life for Apple. They needed to sell the plane without re-certifying, so the management demands some poor engineers work around it while having their hands tied behind their back.
And the discussion about the quote on HN
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2524855
There is a role for engineering to adjust the vision when necessary to comport with reality. It's not clear that was an issue with these keyboards as it's not clear that anyone knew up front that the butterfly mechanism would have these problems.
It's worth remembering that when Apple launched this keyboard, they didn't just say it's thin, they touted the engineering that went into it. I really, really doubt that this was a situation where the engineering team was banging the problem gong and was overruled. I know that's a popular way of thinking here on HN but I need at least some evidence to believe it.
This looks more like well-intentioned innovation that has just not worked out as well as they hoped, which happens sometimes, even with competent engineers. It's why Apple keeps such cash reserves on hand, so they can try new things and survive the ones that don't work out. Thankfully in this case, laptop keyboards are not life and death products.
(Having said that, I think some of those issues are somewhat overstated. The keyboard is a real issue; the Mac Pro's thermal corner is a real issue, but it's one we have solid evidence is being addressed by both the forthcoming Mac Pro and the already-existing iMac Pro; AirPower is a debacle, but I don't know if that's really his purview; the rest...eh. I'm not saying they're not real, but I don't know how widespread they are as real issues. But with the exception of AirPower and the Mac Pro, all the issues you listed would probably have literally been solved by making everything 1mm thicker.)
The AirPower debacle was anything but. They noticed they had an unfixable design problem and cancelled the project. The alternative would have been something similar to the Samsung/Galaxy Fold issue. Shipping a bad product.
Even the Mac Pro not being updated was halfway because they thought the IMac Pro bad external GPUs was the answer. Honestly, for most people it could be and has gotten great review. They had a change of heart.
Nope, there's another alternative: announce it when it's sitting in the backroom of every Apple store, like back in the old days. I'm sure Apple has their reasons for not doing that much anymore, but it would have avoided this very issue.
I'm not sure "debacle" is the right word for a product they announced, and then later decided they couldn't make, and so cancelled. There were no physical copies out there, no consumers wasted money on it, it was just... a cancelled product.
"This is the clearest expression of our vision of the future of personal computing, a simple multitouch piece of glass that instantly transforms into anything you want it to be."
So in their quest to shepherd users towards this vision, they've made design concessions which have hurt their existing users.
I lied, I'll take one whack at this dead horse: with support costs continuing to escalate (in-store inventory, training, and employees aren't free), now will you fix the keyboards for realsies this time?
One of, if not the biggest problem with many of those Apple fanatic is that Apple could do no wrong. And this is speaking as someone who like Apple but increasingly irritated by their action.
https://arstechnica.com/science/2011/08/users-treat-criticis...
As a cost reduction technique, they rivet the keyboard to the upper chassis of the Macbook rather than the comparatively expensive process of tapping holes and using screws. This has no impact on product performance and quality, but if you happen to use an inferior keyboard then it makes repairs exceptionally difficult. As a result Apple is averse to performing repairs because what could have been an inexpensive keyboard swap now requires replacing the entire uni-body chassis which is an expensive machined part.
Another example is where the Macbook display FRC is soldered directly to the panel to avoid a connector that costs a penny in volume. This reduces manufacturing costs and part counts but introduces the risk that any issues with the FRC require the entire display to be replaced. That's exactly what happened because they made the FRC a few millimeters too short. Apple said that display failures were isolated and not a manufacturing defect however this year's model features an FRC that's a few millimeters longer.
These types of optimizations to the product might save a dollar or two in the BOM but they completely fail to take into consideration support requirements they introduce. Riveting a $ keyboard to a $$$$ machined aluminum chassis makes you adverse to even acknowledging an issue with the keyboard because you'll then have to replace the entire assembly. Forgoing a connector and soldering a $ FRC directly to the $$$$ display means that when the FRC fails due to stress from an engineering fault, you pretend it's an isolated issue to avoid having to replaced entire display assemblies on thousands of devices.
There is a good reason I stick with my mid-2014 macbook.
I'm not aware of that being the case in any U.S. state. How does a consumer protect whatever rights they have? 50% off an external keyboard isn't good enough but people have work to do. Why bother getting yet another "fix" when it too likely fails in a few months? I'd want to make sure that if my warranty is about to expire that I've got documentation that Apple agrees the defect exists and that I'm entitled to a better permanent fix.
Consumer protection laws are important. This finders keepers nonsense makes people angry and they aren't just going to reduce their trust in Apple, their trust in the industry and society is diminished as well.
This is indeed the law in many European countries, at least it is in Turkey, which sources its jurisprudence largely from there. I have successfully used this in TR against a Toshiba laptop (motherboard issue) circa 2004 as barely a high-school kid, much to the chagrin of the distributor's legal team lead. In the end they paid the retail amount in full, though it took a bit of time.
(Personally, I would say the answer is "just put the damn Magic Keyboard in the laptops and get over your pretty pretty selves about the extra 0.5mm," but I have an unfortunate suspicion that's way too simple.)
Typing on the magic keyboards is only marginally better than typing on the butterfly keyboards on their laptops. We have one in the conference room at work and I hate whenever I have to use it...
Edit: To clarify, Apple's newer "magic" Keyboards aren't the same as their older desktop keyboards. They use a butterfly mechanism just like the laptops, and have barely more travel.
Obviously, this is a YMMV thing. I personally just tolerate the butterfly switches, but prefer the Magic Keyboard to the older Apple laptop switches. This is not a preference on my part for low travel switches, either -- my favorite keyboards are actually mechanical ones. But (to me) the MK is the best scissor switch keyboard I've ever used, save for its dumb arrow key layout.
It can happen. I spilled a sugary soda over my plastic Macbook almost 10y ago now, and fried the keyboard. It was easily fixed by ordering a refurb part from OWC and following the steps in their repair video.
The idea of DIY'ing something like that today on an Apple product seems very quaint.
They’ve exchanged the MOBO, display, shell, and keyboard effectively giving me a new computer.
I purchased the extended Apple Care and will probably be left hanging when the 3 year mark comes around.
Definetly happier with my 2011 Macbook Air. Can’t recommend buying the new one.
But hey, sample size 1.
If they extend the program to include this model, you might get 4 years instead of 3. But yeah, the resale value for these machines is going to be terrible. A laptop that might be worth $1k fully-functioning is worth at most $300 if there’s a 60% chance that it will need at least one keyboard repair that costs $700. There’s the monetary cost, the hassle, and the adverse selection problem (that people who are selling their computers are more likely to be in the 60% that had problems, since if it’s working fine you wouldn’t be as likely to sell).
Ultimately these machines will probably end up being purchased for use as desktop machines, exclusively used with external keyboards.
Hopefully with the quick turnaround more people will bring theirs in and get the failure rate numbers up closer to reality vs. the "small number" of failures they seem to think there is.
From a link in the article:
> The program also only serves to service affected keyboards at no charge for up to four years from their purchase date, but replacement keyboards are just as likely to be affected by durability issues.
I'm on the hunt for a new laptop, and would prefer macOS, but this keyboard issue shows how the mbp are simply "not fit for purpose".
The only laptop that is free of this problem is the mba 2017 edition (5th gen i5/ i7) at a heavily inflated price.
It took a lot of handholding to even educate Apple about their legal obligations to consumers in New Zealand.
Eventually after threats of sending copies of letter to consumer protection office they agreed to pay for materials, but I had to pay for labour costs for the fix.
Legally, they were required to pay for everything but I gave in because the labor cost was pretty cheap (I think around $80).
> Legally, they were required to pay for everything but I gave in because the labor cost was pretty cheap (I think around $80).
The Australian Ombudsman for Consumer Rights is super easy to deal with.
Fire off an email that shows you've contacted the right people, and that they haven't fixed the issue.
The ombudsman steps in and leans on the organisation, and you'll get a resolution within two weeks usually, four if they try and play hardball with the department... Which is a bad idea.
The next contact you'll get is the organisation apologising and trying to fix the issue, because if they don't do it to your satisfaction there are serious threats they have to deal with.
The org is required to pay for parts, labour and any required shipping. And you don't have to deal with the org directly - it's whoever you purchased from.
It's a painless process here, and means you don't have to deal with the stress of someone like Apple refusing to help you. At the first sign of "no we're not helping the way we should", fire an email and sit back and let the Ombudsman handle it for you.
It's said that design is the art of compromise and that perfection is the enemy of the good. Unfortunately, Apple seems to have largely forgotten this. The 12" Macbook was a perfect example of this: in the quest for thinness, it was simply too much compromise.
The 13" Macbook Air (2011+) was, to me, basically a perfect laptop. Powerful enough for most needs, light enough for most needs and not too expensive. I feel completely differently if a $1000 laptop dies or is lost or stolen vs a $4000 laptop.
The USB-C debacle is another example of this. Instead of a laptop that does basically everything you now need to carry a dock or dongle or set of cables instead. How does this make sense? And let's not forget that we lost MagSafe with this too.
Sometimes I just want to throw my Macbook out the window.
I don’t know if this future will actually happen but would be nice.
Losing MagSafe is a bummer though.
The number of times I needed (or be willing to, random USB keys just don’t get to touch my computer) to plug in a foreign device during the last three years (even before I was provided a new MBP three months ago) is exactly zero.
Maybe Apple made a compromise. But if other companies can build the same laptop without compromise Apple must do better.
[1] https://www.tomshardware.com/news/lenovo-laptop-quality-cont...
You can always get a bad device. Happened to me with a faulty MacBook Display too. What matters in this case is the service contract you have with the manufacturer. And some companies have stellar service if you pay for it.
I had an X1 Carbon for work and when I used it on my lap the keyboard would randomly stop working. I realized this was because it didn't work if the laptop was only supported on the back part.
To each his own. (BTW you can get MagSafe clips for USB-C, which is a testament to this standard’s modularity)
If you're really intent on it, Griffin sells a MagSafe USB-C adapter - https://griffintechnology.com/breaksafe-magnetic-usb-c-power...
I was once a big evangelist for Apple laptops. Now I tell people to get something else unless they're absolutely tied to macOS. I'll definitely be taking a very hard look at other, non Apple options when this guy gives up the ghost.
Desktops are solved, we don't need a savior for desktops because the modularity allows us to combine the best parts from various manufacturers.
We need a savior for laptops where the keyboard, mouse, screen, and components are all embedded, and there's no way to separate them.
I consider the iMac a convenient machine but it's a bit like buying a tv with a vcr built in and a keurig machine built-in too.
1. Thermals. Apple prioritized silence over performance. So they like to run cpus at high temperatures and start fans only than it is absolute necessary. It limits cpu clocks and performance. And although it has great cooling solution it worse than it could be that if it was just standard desktop. And it uses intel cpus that are pretty hot because they use older technology node.
2. CUDA. There are no nvidia support for Mojave if i am not mistaken. So there isn't support for CUDA. It should make some stuff very hard or impossible. For example ML training.
3. Price. It is very expensive. Hackintosh build including great monitor with intel + amd gpus will be twice as cheap.
I've been super happy with mine since last fall, and just this week, upgraded the 8GB of ram to 32GB myself, took a whole 15 mins to insert it and put everything back together.
MagSafe has to have been one of the best ideas in all of personal computing, and now they've just completely abandoned it. The least Apple could do is give up their patents on it; if they're not going to use it, at least let someone else try their hand at it. It's a total pipe-dream, but wouldn't it be great if the next USB standard mandated detachable connectors? It would never happen because of cost concerns, but a man can dream.
Tradeoffs.
I think you need to put it in perspective. The MacBook Retina was just like the first MacBook Air, it wasn't the best or good enough when it launched but It was designed with technology coming soon in the next 2 years, the promise of Intel 10nm in mind and WiFi 6 / 802.11ax. Both were suppose to come in 2016 / 2017. The 10nm, and its subsequent 7nm CPU would give Quad Core Intel CPU in a fanless design that is as powerful as a 2014 Quad Core MacBook Pro. And 802.11ax, 802.11ad or 802.11ay in the 60Ghz. The first would finally give Gigabit Ethernet speed in a wireless environment the 2nd ones would allow Wireless Transfer in dozens of Gbps within direct line of sight. For Macbook's target audience, those computation power was more than enough.
Fast forward to now, not only Intel wont have 10nm ULP CPU in massive quantities by end of 2019, it is likely not even the same 10nm as it was originally scheduled / promised in pre 2015 meetings. WiFi 6 / 802.11ax has been met with delays after delays to the point the Working Group literally force their way out push for commercial roll out. Last time I checked their meeting notes it still has thousand of issues unresolved. Much more than all the previous Draft WiFi standards.
One theory I have, was that Apple could not afford to anger, complain or make any signs of hardballing in their Mac department as they have a much bigger grand plan, to work with Intel together on the iPhone Modem and attack the Qualcomm business model. Since they have to decide their iPhone 7 Modem in Summer 2015, the thoughts and grand plan must have happen earlier, some evidence suggest this started in 2014 as it was shown in the case between Qualcomm and Apple.
And it was one reason I suggest switching to ARM on Mac doesn't make sense because Apple relies too much on Intel's Modem on its iPhone. And the iPhone business is the bread and butter of Apple. Now that everything has been settled I strongly believe Apple Mac will announced their ARM move within 30 months. But this is another topic for discussion.
I blame computer tech journalists and reviewers that give stars for thinness.
It's a metric, a stupid and an easy one to measure.
To make an engineering statement?
I don't know, in both cases it was a total disaster.
Or is there something inherent to the design that makes them prone to this issue that can't be fixed?
edit: apple keynotes piss me off because they seem to only care about making sexy flagship stores in cities that already have stores just brag about how awesome they are. All I need is a normal store in a mall where I can buy stuff and have it fixed in a reasonable time with reasonably competent staff. Just makes it seem they're pivoting into a luxury brand instead of a technology brand /rant from a Mac user for 29 years
My only option is the "apple-approved" is the local Staples. Staples!?
I have had 3 broken keys so far. Apple replaced one key, right in shop. I replaced one out of my own pocket. And the other just broke last week.
I hate this keyboard so much - I miss my 2012 Macbook Pro.
The keys coming completely off when you turn the laptop over is ideal because the Genius can't really argue that one. You can cause this failure just by habitually pressing on the bottom portion of a key. For me, it's always the T key first.
But god forbid you only have a problem with the double-fires which doesn't seem to present if you just hammer one key 20 times (which they do in shop).
I've had the entire front panel replaced for free now twice (so, includes a new battery as well). And I've received my fixed laptop in the mail after a one day wait which is a spectacular experience if it weren't for such a debacle. But I'm nervous about the keyboard repair program ending once my laptop is three years old.
They said, no problem, we believe you, and replaced the keyboard anyway.
There is 1 Apple Store in all the country in a fancy suburb of Mexico City (Santa Fe). Even if you live in Mexico City it might take you 1-2 hours to get there depending on traffic.
Otherwise there are a couple of authorized resellers (iShop, Compudabo, etc) that also give official tech support. It's a real disgrace. I know colleagues that have faulty keyboards and these authorized services have refused to repair the keyboard with the excuse that they cannot reproduce the issue.
Seriously, I could deal with a laptop that is 3mm thicker.
Soon to make laptops .5mm thinner, the macbooks will probably have touchscreens keyboards instead of physical ones.
More recently I just started taking my ThinkPad.
only thing is, my substitute thinkpad x230 with (stripped down) linux mint reminded me how a good computer (& keyboard) can really feel, so i will prop. use that one for coding, and the mac retina display one for netflix & keynote.
1. they’re crazy thick. i travel a lot, and i need good cpu and ram and very light, very thin laptops. something like the huawei, or any of the macbook pros.
2. macos. because linux is still a drag.
And yes, I need Word to work.
Linux might be ok if its nvidia drivers weren’t so flaky, its Broadcom wireless drivers didn’t break with random system updates, and its app ecosystem put a bigger emphasis on high quality UX and made up its mind about UI conventions, but I don’t see any of that improving any time soon…
1 year ago i tried to fix it myself, broke the space bar crimps on 6 month old mbp15, and they told me because i tried to fix it myself i have to pay 500E for the repair. keep in mind i make my own keyboards, i did not even think i will not be capable to remove a bread crumb from under the space bar.
few months ago I sold all my apple stuff, and have never been happier https://txt.black/~jack/bye-apple.txt
After being Mac exclusive since early 2000s, and having spent an ungodly amount of money on their gear over the years.
They have a problem, and my patience is gone. No interest in a new Mac, and I can see myself leaving their ecosystem entirely now that the macOS cord is cut.
I'm a vi user. I thought that maybe with a few months of just trusting the location on the touch bar that I'd get used to it. After all that 'training' I can land on the key about 90% of the time, which is about 9.9999% not close enough. And certainly I cannot consistently land on it with any other finger than the left ring finger when coming directly from the home row. My hands aren't always consistently on the home row, so that's also a problem.
I have come to like the touchbar. But the Esc key needs to be promoted to a real key. Tactile response matters.
The caps lock location is a superior place to put the escape key anyways.
I am really alone???
Are others commenters all dissatisfied customers or just ranters who don’t work on macOS anyway ? Very curious...
The longer you let a boil like this fester, the more painful it's going to be when you finally lance it.
I'd previously tried out someone else's 2016 MacBook Pro with the first generation butterfly keyboard. I actually immediately liked the new keyboard and knew I'd get used to it almost immediately if I ever switched.
10 days into my 2018 MacBook Air ownership, I started experiencing "sticky" keys with characters repeating themselves and/or not registering. This was on a brand new computer that had always remained closed when not in use and hadn't even moved from my desk.
Luckily, I was within the 14-day return period and I was able to walk into an Apple store and swap out the defective unit for another new MBA that (so far) doesn't have the sticky key issue.
I am now close to the end of the return period for my second MBA and I live in fear that the issue will present itself and I'll need to be without my computer while some Genius Bar employee tears apart my brand new $2,000 laptop and follows some mitigation procedure that is not guaranteed to last long.
I believe Apple has the resources to make this keyboard mechanism work but has not allocated those resources appropriately.
Older MacBook Airs are excellent machines.
Stop fixing stuff that isn’t broken.
Would you feel differently had this problem happened to you before they instituted this policy and had to waste your own time and money repairing their problem?
Personally I'm disappointed in Apple and know they can do better. The proof is my 2012 MBP sitting right here on my desk.
This is basically my last personal macbook, it's just not worth the money for repairs and hassle.
https://ifixit.org/blog/13979/apples-2018-macbook-pros-attem...
Ya know because to responsibility == liability == lower revenues.
/s
Customer with LTV of almost six figures deciding to walk, but they won’t care, and don’t realise their moat is crumbling with everyone like me who decides it’s just a little too expensive and some of the qualities that made up for it in the past are no longer there.
My 2016 MacBook Pro has the best keyboard I've ever used in my life. It is a joy to type on. Of all the things that needed "improving" in my laptop, the keyboard would have been dead last.
Hell, if they were still selling 2016 MPBs today with the exact same specs, I'd take that over a 2018 one.
"MacBook Pro (Retina, 15-inch, Mid 2014)"
I guess I've had it longer than I realized! Still holding on to it desperately hoping Apple ships a new MacBook with a fixed keyboard before this one dies.
These laptops run $3000+ Apple should uphold some standards.
My current one is supplied by my company, but I don't think I am buying one for personal use. The 2015 MBP was the pinnacle.
The touch bar is useless fluff, btw. Soldered on SSDs? GTFO!