I’m hapa and I’ve noticed that boba shops are basically sober bars for Asian people. Whenever I go back home I get boba with my old friends (who don’t drink) and inevitably see someone from my high school class. I’m in my mid 20s btw.
Similarly, here in Berlin there are plenty of Turkish and Arab places which are (either rigorously or primarily) alcohol-free. Also open late, also can have a nice atmosphere.
Then there are the clubs where most people are using some drug other than alcohol. It's obviously not quite the same, but I find it easier to avoid drinking when there are lots of other people keeping off alcohol to avoid killing their high. Generally, I've found the hardcore party people to have a healthy attitude that it's every person's choice what they do or don't put into their body.
I wish there were better non-alcoholic drinks that aren't sweet or hot. There's only so many mocktails or teas I can drink.
One of the best part of pubs/bars is sitting down for a session and chatting for a couple of hours. A cold beer is still refreshing the second or third time around in a way that a sweet or hot drink isn't.
I can occasionally get lucky with a decent non-alcoholic beer in a bar, though it tends to be more miss than hit.
I’d be interested in a non alcoholic stout that rivalled Guinness. Bonus points if it’s not a calorie bomb so I can drink a few. Highly improbable, I know— but I’d love it.
As a German, I feel like I need to recommend "Malzbier" [0], which is a quite sweet malt beverage, but its varies by brand. I can't tell you if the English language Wikipedia article [1] represents a broader class of drinks, though.
It's hard enough to find a good non-alcoholic beer without limiting it to stouts, so I'd try blending your favorite non-alcoholic beer with an infusion of roasted barley. Guinness is fairly light as stouts go, so I think this might work.
There was a non-alcoholic drink made in Nigeria, Maltina, that was made at a brewery as a non-alcoholic stout. I have not tried it, but it was quite popular and it looks like it has some distribution in Canada and the US.
Inferial Stout from the Norwegian brewery Nøgne Ø is the only non-alcoholic stout I've tried. It's not Guinness, but certainly not bad for a non-alcoholic beer.
Otherwise I'm generally of the opinion that Mikkeller make the best (or at least most interesting) non-alcoholic beers
This is a great idea. In addition, consider flavouring to your taste by just mixing with soda.
I had an obsession with sprite/7-up one summer. The diet variety tasted awful and the regular not only was so high in calories, it was too sweet for me. I ended up with a 60/40 mix of club soda/sprite. It gives it a wonderful lightness while maintaining that great fizziness. It became my summer patio reading drink.
There are a few styles of hop Seltzer or hop juice that are supposed to taste like a beer, but with zero alcohol. They are available at Whole Foods - I don't remember the brand name, though.
Depending on how strict you are being about non-alcoholic club soda and bitters is a good option. There are tons of bitters types out there that make good choices and even dives tend to keep agnostura on hand.
not sure where you live but atm, in the UK, the range of non-alcoholic beers is superb. Off the top of my head:
* Brew-dog Nanny State
* Erdinger blue
* big drop pale ale
* big drop stout
* Franziskaner 0.5
* adnams ghost ship
are all available in my local Tesco and all pretty great.
Almost every bar now has the usual alcohol free becks/heineken - but i must admit, like their lagers, they are pretty grim drinks, but i am finding that more and more are stocking nanny state or erdinger
Erdinger alcohol-free is the best non-alcoholic beer I've tasted. I think wheat-beer works better than plain barley-beer, because it avoids the thin and watery mouth-feel so many non-alcoholic beers have. Nanny State is disappointing IMO, with lots of hops and not much else, although it might be useful for blending.
Ice water with a lime. Available everywhere, meets your needs and looks like a vodka drink so people who REALLY want you to be drinking something harder if they are, assume you are.
Alcohol has never made sense to me. I've tried it over and over, especially in university, and I've never come to appreciate it. I'm 6'2 270lbs and about half a beer in I lose situational awareness and peak cognitive performance and feel vulnerable and it's just a really unenjoyable sensation.
But I always loved going to bars with friends and socializing. So this concept is quite exciting to me.
My spouse never enjoyed marijuana for similar reasons. When I was younger I never understood and had a hard time with how different of an experience everyone has ingesting the same chemicals. I enjoy that vulnerability.
Alcohol, like all drugs, is about socializing. You get to experience strong sensations (energizing, relaxing, uninhibiting, etc.) but most of all you share these sensations with people. That's why sober people tend to get bored in a room of drunk people, or conversely why drinking (or otherwise indulging in substances) alone is a red flag for addiction. Recreational drug use, from the shared cigarette on the rooftop to binge drinking to collective mushroom trips is about making yourself vulnerable to others through strong sensations in the knowledge that they are feeling the same way. This lets you connect to people more easily: strangers strike up conversations, acquaintances become friends, friends become close friends, etc.
That's also why it's often recommended that you only drink alcohol or do drugs with people you 100% trust, especially if you're not used to it.
It sounds like they're distinguishing themselves by curating a 'rowdy' atmosphere. I'm too young to remember coffee shops before wifi but I assume people didn't dance.
Exactly, I'd much prefer going to a coffee or tea shop if that's the case. The price point will be better, the environment socially conducive, WiFi, and stimulants to keep you awake--plus I prefer coffee drinks.
The article almost describes juice/smoothie bars which already exist and offer similar advantages.
Maybe I'm stretching the definition of night club, but why can't you envision one that isn't hostile to the idea of having all ages be able to participate?
This isn't about alcohol. It's about loneliness and the loss of community. This type of establishment fills the social space that a church might have had several decades ago.
I'm actually surprised there aren't more options for social spaces. Cafes are a sort of social-anti-social space, but past that it's somewhat lacking. Local gaming stores for nerdy-style board gaming nights tend to do well.
Where's the big room full of people on comfortable couches enjoying some Smash Brothers?
Interesting, I'd be a patron if one of these were near me. I have the perfect storm of mild bitter-sensitivity (I can choke down light beers, but something higher in IBUs will make me retch), being the stepchild of an alcoholic, and no particular fondness for being tipsy. Given how much of my socialization happens at bars, it would be nice to have a wider variety of options than just nursing the sweetest cider on the menu for hours.
It reminds me of my father's situation, who has been a vegetarian my entire life; growing up in rural Pennsylvania he'd quite often have to settle for ordering the mac and cheese from the kids' menu whenever we went out to eat anywhere. I think he'd weep with joy if he saw the sheer abundance of options available to my vegetarian friends in modern Boston.
I guess my question is, why can't you get the same experience at a regular bar? I grew up in a pretty small town so whenever I went to the bar with friends, I could just get a Pepsi or something similar if I was the DD. The bartender never pressured me to drink and neither did my friends. I always felt like that if I said I do not drink or if I was the DD, people would back off. I can see the societal pressure whenever going to the bar to drink, but is it really so much that you cannot resist? I am genuinely curious.
Bars could indeed offer these options trivially, it may simply be that they've never considered it, or considered that there might be a demand for it. As the perpetual DD throughout my college career, if you're not a fan of sucking down sugary soda or virgin Bloody Marys, be prepared to sip water for the night.
I guess more ways that I am ignorant to the situation, I was always okay with just a water. I am not too familiar with non-alcoholic beverages. I can imagine if the demand is there, which apparently is true after this article, regular bars may want to start looking at it as an option. That would probably be a great way for bars to introduce a "drink responsibly" program.
It’s not really a great business plan for most bars. A typical non drinker will have maybe 1 fancy drink then be happy with nursing a water for the night. Someone who is drinking alcohol and getting in the mood will often pay for 4-6 drinks. The more you get known for being a place that has good sober alternatives the more you are going to get sober people coming in for that atmosphere. At that point it might be wiser to just base your whole business model around it like these places are doing.
I am not familiar with non-alcoholic drinks other than water and soda. I usually am okay with just a water when I am the DD or not feeling the alcoholic drinks available. After reading this article and talking to others, it seems like I have been missing a big portion of the beverage market.
Many people who quit drinking do so because they lack self control with it and it is harmful to them on one way or another. Coffeehouses used to be a great alternative as people would go there to socialize and meet other people but most of them now function more as places people can work heads down on their laptops.
There’s probably a lot of great business ideas to address this but they are a little more complex to figure out because people who are not drinking don’t tend to make quite as many bad judgement calls on spending money for drinks.
I've generally done the same, but I could do without the smell and the way some people act when they're drinking. I've definitely encountered a bar or too that was very limited in what else they sold - not even having Coke or tonic that would usually be mixed. Mostly though, I agree with the one that mentioned wanting a truly drink optional culture, and I hope the social trends mentioned continue. I've definitely had coworkers that weren't cool with me being sober when they weren't, and people who wanted to meet up to talk but quickly lost the ability to speak coherent thoughts. Emphasis on socializing over drinking would be good for everyone. I don't mind if people have some beers, but having more than a few and driving home, having more than a few and being a jerk, and occasionally not having anything to do unless you want to join in on that isn't my idea of a good time. If things go that way, I'm not even getting the socializing I was hoping for.
edit: occasionally there's a bartender who really appreciates the DD and will go out of their way to make sure you have a good time and are willing to DD again. They rock.
This works better the more intimate the setting is. I can totally see it working in a small town. Here's a handful of reasons this could go sideways:
Some bars are just slammed. Like, 40 feet of bar, entire front is 5 people deep squirming to get served by two people, and you have to literally scream at those people to get service. Ordering a $1.50 sprite in that environment is not only hellish for you, it's arguably a waste of the bartender and everyone else's time. There's a counterargument along the lines of "we all pay to be here, everyone's equal" but I wouldn't expect it to be a common take.
If you have a problem, yes, it's going to be extremely hard to resist.
Scarier still, you could be the victim of an innocent mistake. I don't eat dairy. My burgers come out with cheese on them by mistake maybe 10% of the time. When the kitchen's on autopilot, they absentmindedly make the default version of the thing, and there's no system to catch that mistake until it gets to me. That soda water becomes a gin soda really easily. If you just don't like alcohol, this is a trivial mistake. If you're in recovery, you are in serious danger.
But it's not that you can't resist. It's that you feel weird for resisting. I have a friend that didn't drink for many years. He got extraordinarily sick of having to explain himself. Even if the people you meet are 100% supportive, merely having the situation brought up can feel like a burden or like it singles you out. Many people find it hard to enjoy themselves in the shadow of this feeling.
If I don't want to drink, I take people to tea. You still have a pretense for sitting down in a strange dim room and having intimate conversation. Just without all the other bullshit. But I think an abundance of tea houses might require a fairly big city, at least in America.
This just reeks of first world problems. People who "don't drink" (you know the ones), take pride in it, and when it turns out they don't have as much fun as their drinking friends, complain that alcohol and partying are "pushed on them" and justify their need for complete teetotaling spaces.
I mean, these spaces already exist. They're called Starbucks, Costa Coffee, and so on. They're fancy tea houses and smoothie stores or whatever. Why not just go there instead?
The social context of a coffee shop is to get coffee. The social context for a bar is to get laid. The fact that they both serve beverages is just incidental and not indicative of their function.
Maybe the people who you have in mind aren't the target demographic. There are plenty of people who prefer not to drink (or want to drink less) that basically never talk about it.
People don't dance when they're sober, period. Even in cultures where alcohol isn't traditonally consumed, either another substance is used or very energic and rhythmic music is performed in order to induce trance-like states. People don't magically start moving when there isn't anything to entice them (drinks, or money for professional dancers).
You obviously haven't been out with very extroverted people before. People can be very suggestible, I think it's probably possible to create a space where people dance without alcohol or anything else.
Yeah, they're called nightclubs with outrageous prices for drinks, or juice bars. Been to a few myself. But somehow I doubt your idea of "a space where people dance without alcohol" involves loud rave-type music. Maybe you could clarify
Depends where you live. Many clubs display prohibitive/punitive fares on purpose, by the owners' own admission - not everyone is a rational market agent.
In many clubs there are also areas (usually smoking ones, but also backrooms, lounge areas, and so on) where the sound is muted and conversations (and other things) easily take place.
As a former drinker who really loved beer, within the past few years there's been a good number of dedicated NA craft breweries start up and they've endeared themselves to me in a way no brands have. My favorites are Wellbeing Brewing Co, Athletic Brewing Co, and Surreal Brewing Co.
It's been tough being in a neglected market but things are changing.
Does anyone notice that the text of this article appears to be vibrating up and down? Made me nauseous almost instantly. I'm on a Macbook, using Chrome.
First of all, I'm extremely in favor of social spots that don't revolve around alcohol. But what in the hell is going on with that price point? I would have thought you were paying for rent + alcohol + labor when it comes to a regular alcoholic cocktail, but one of those things is missing from the equation. Is it just that it's in NYC? Is their overhead so high they need to charge the equivalent of a meal per drink, or is it a status/luxury thing? Maybe my standards are out of wack.
Yeah at the end of the day they are renting a space in NYC and not charging an entry fee. Most of the cost of drinks at a bar are for things other than the alcohol itself. Also, it sounds like they are offering expensive juices and other ingredients to make up the money not spent on alcohol.
With 15/hr minimum wages, restaurants and bars in NYC have to aim for something like 8% of revenue spent on rent to break even (meaning you need to target 50-60k a month before you begin to break even on a fairly small space)
rent + alcohol + labor when it comes to a regular alcoholic cocktail, but one of those things is missing from the equation.
First of all rent + labor is by far the highest cost of those three when running a bar. Secondly the sort of alcohol most places use in most cocktails is pretty cheap, and fresh exotic fruits, berries and other ingredients can be pretty expensive. I wouldn't be surprised if the raw ingredient costs of these cocktails are basically the same as most other cocktails.
I used to drink quite a bit in high school, university and my early twenties. At some point I decided that I wanted to start programming and build a side project but found that having one or many drinks would write off the evening or next day that I had planned to learn and develop myself.
So I stopped drinking alcohol and over time just began to prefer the clearer state of mind. Eventually, it just seemed like alcohol was unnecessary money and calories, and would end up tainting any free time I had ahead of me. So I preferred not to drink.
Not that I have anything against drinking alcohol in moderation but I really think there is a good opportunity to do interesting non-alcoholic drinks that you could have on a night out.
I think many miss the point of drinking alcohol. While I perfectly respect those who avoid it, the primary benefit of alcohol is to provide the proverbial "social lubrication."
It "loosens" people up and tends to make people more friendly and open to socialize with (approachable), even some of the most defensive people I've met. Many in society today are fairly antisocial or fall into small groups at social events that can be more difficult to start a discussion and mingle with. They're frequently more judgemental at that point and may avoid people based on ill conceived prejudices, limiting otherwise worthwhile relationships they may form.
Alcohol helps break that barrier and lets people talk who would otherwise rarely, if ever, talk. Sometimes this is fruitful, sometimes it's not. It gives people a social "out" when it's not fruitful or their social groups judge/criticize them for talking to someone different/odd, "well I was tipsy."
If viewed as an optimization problem, alcohol effectively provides a stochastic gradient descent, mutation, momentum/inertia, annealing, or whichever minima escape mechanism you prefer to explore social spaces beyond what you've already found.
It sounds like a savvy business move. My kids have been coming home from university and are not interested in alcohol when offered, other parents report the same. They really have a negative association with any drinking, in part because of the binge drinking they see at school, but they also associate craft beers, wines, and fancy cocktails with older generations that seem obsessed with waiting in long lines to sample the next cool IPA.
On the other hand, they are growing up in an era where weed is either legal or de-criminalized, so perhaps they just have more options.
> My kids have been coming home from university and are not interested in alcohol when offered, other parents report the same.
I did the same thing as a student, because I didn't want to come off to my parents as a heavy drinker. Refusing a beer in front of them, then getting shitfaced with my friends the next night was a pretty common occurrence. You shouldn't take everything your kids say at face value -- and I don't mean that as a bad thing, kids should keep some secrets from their parents, it helps them grow up and learn to be independent.
Side note: In 2016 just 56.9% of UK over-16s had had a drink in the week before, the lowest percentage on record since the office began asking the question in 2005
This is an incredible statistic. ..especially considering what it would be if you removed other drug users, religious abstainers and those who can't for medical reasons. Humans and mind altering substances..
I grew up in one and this describes it fairly well. None of my family believes in god but appreciated the community. There is an orientation towards general spirituality, however any individual defines it for themselves but the purpose is more for general community and moral thinking, etc.
Utah (unsurprisingly) has a really good rising "sober bar" scene. Lots of unique soda shops with custom sodas.
Still, I'm not a huge fan of soda because it always leaves a sugary film in my mouth that I dislike. I'm a bigger fan of juice-based smoothies. I would love to see more nut/plant "milk" related options (with various spices for flavoring instead of sugar). Pistachio milk is delicious but I've only ever had it home made.
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[ 3.6 ms ] story [ 185 ms ] threadThen there are the clubs where most people are using some drug other than alcohol. It's obviously not quite the same, but I find it easier to avoid drinking when there are lots of other people keeping off alcohol to avoid killing their high. Generally, I've found the hardcore party people to have a healthy attitude that it's every person's choice what they do or don't put into their body.
One of the best part of pubs/bars is sitting down for a session and chatting for a couple of hours. A cold beer is still refreshing the second or third time around in a way that a sweet or hot drink isn't.
I can occasionally get lucky with a decent non-alcoholic beer in a bar, though it tends to be more miss than hit.
[0] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malzbier [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malta_(soft_drink)
Sounds like it’s sweeter and maybe closer to an English malt beer than an Irish stout, but it sounds like it might be close
Tastes nothing like beer, but if you are just in it for the barley taste, it has a very powerful and delicious flavor.
Otherwise I'm generally of the opinion that Mikkeller make the best (or at least most interesting) non-alcoholic beers
I had an obsession with sprite/7-up one summer. The diet variety tasted awful and the regular not only was so high in calories, it was too sweet for me. I ended up with a 60/40 mix of club soda/sprite. It gives it a wonderful lightness while maintaining that great fizziness. It became my summer patio reading drink.
Unsweetened cranberry juice, ice and soda is my favorite.
You should check out Seedlip; it is a “non-alcoholic distilled spirit”, similar to gin. Mix with tonic water, cheers!
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemon,_lime_and_bitters
* Brew-dog Nanny State
* Erdinger blue
* big drop pale ale
* big drop stout
* Franziskaner 0.5
* adnams ghost ship
are all available in my local Tesco and all pretty great.
Almost every bar now has the usual alcohol free becks/heineken - but i must admit, like their lagers, they are pretty grim drinks, but i am finding that more and more are stocking nanny state or erdinger
But I always loved going to bars with friends and socializing. So this concept is quite exciting to me.
That's also why it's often recommended that you only drink alcohol or do drugs with people you 100% trust, especially if you're not used to it.
They have non-alcoholic drinks and baked goods, along with things like card tables, darts/pool, video games, that sort of thing.
The article almost describes juice/smoothie bars which already exist and offer similar advantages.
So instead of alcohol they serve nicotine-induced cocktails. Swap one drug for another. I'll stick to alcohol, thanks.
The best parties of my life were for all ages.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ElecTRONica
Where's the big room full of people on comfortable couches enjoying some Smash Brothers?
It reminds me of my father's situation, who has been a vegetarian my entire life; growing up in rural Pennsylvania he'd quite often have to settle for ordering the mac and cheese from the kids' menu whenever we went out to eat anywhere. I think he'd weep with joy if he saw the sheer abundance of options available to my vegetarian friends in modern Boston.
Because relatively few bars have anything interesting to drink that's non-alcoholic.
That said, from my experience some bars/pubs are more suitable than others to the non-drinker.
There’s probably a lot of great business ideas to address this but they are a little more complex to figure out because people who are not drinking don’t tend to make quite as many bad judgement calls on spending money for drinks.
edit: occasionally there's a bartender who really appreciates the DD and will go out of their way to make sure you have a good time and are willing to DD again. They rock.
Some bars are just slammed. Like, 40 feet of bar, entire front is 5 people deep squirming to get served by two people, and you have to literally scream at those people to get service. Ordering a $1.50 sprite in that environment is not only hellish for you, it's arguably a waste of the bartender and everyone else's time. There's a counterargument along the lines of "we all pay to be here, everyone's equal" but I wouldn't expect it to be a common take.
If you have a problem, yes, it's going to be extremely hard to resist.
Scarier still, you could be the victim of an innocent mistake. I don't eat dairy. My burgers come out with cheese on them by mistake maybe 10% of the time. When the kitchen's on autopilot, they absentmindedly make the default version of the thing, and there's no system to catch that mistake until it gets to me. That soda water becomes a gin soda really easily. If you just don't like alcohol, this is a trivial mistake. If you're in recovery, you are in serious danger.
But it's not that you can't resist. It's that you feel weird for resisting. I have a friend that didn't drink for many years. He got extraordinarily sick of having to explain himself. Even if the people you meet are 100% supportive, merely having the situation brought up can feel like a burden or like it singles you out. Many people find it hard to enjoy themselves in the shadow of this feeling.
If I don't want to drink, I take people to tea. You still have a pretense for sitting down in a strange dim room and having intimate conversation. Just without all the other bullshit. But I think an abundance of tea houses might require a fairly big city, at least in America.
I mean, these spaces already exist. They're called Starbucks, Costa Coffee, and so on. They're fancy tea houses and smoothie stores or whatever. Why not just go there instead?
People don't dance at Starbucks.
-Bouncers often compulsively search you in order to make sure you don't bring extra alcohol inside
-Prices are at a ridiculous premium, typically to profit from the artificial scarcity but also in order to discourage and punish drunken behavior
-Loud party music galore
What exactly is missing?
No club is trying to discourage patrons to have drinks.
Also, some people like conversation. You can't have that at a nightclub
In many clubs there are also areas (usually smoking ones, but also backrooms, lounge areas, and so on) where the sound is muted and conversations (and other things) easily take place.
It's been tough being in a neglected market but things are changing.
How did we get here?
First of all rent + labor is by far the highest cost of those three when running a bar. Secondly the sort of alcohol most places use in most cocktails is pretty cheap, and fresh exotic fruits, berries and other ingredients can be pretty expensive. I wouldn't be surprised if the raw ingredient costs of these cocktails are basically the same as most other cocktails.
So I stopped drinking alcohol and over time just began to prefer the clearer state of mind. Eventually, it just seemed like alcohol was unnecessary money and calories, and would end up tainting any free time I had ahead of me. So I preferred not to drink.
Not that I have anything against drinking alcohol in moderation but I really think there is a good opportunity to do interesting non-alcoholic drinks that you could have on a night out.
It "loosens" people up and tends to make people more friendly and open to socialize with (approachable), even some of the most defensive people I've met. Many in society today are fairly antisocial or fall into small groups at social events that can be more difficult to start a discussion and mingle with. They're frequently more judgemental at that point and may avoid people based on ill conceived prejudices, limiting otherwise worthwhile relationships they may form.
Alcohol helps break that barrier and lets people talk who would otherwise rarely, if ever, talk. Sometimes this is fruitful, sometimes it's not. It gives people a social "out" when it's not fruitful or their social groups judge/criticize them for talking to someone different/odd, "well I was tipsy."
If viewed as an optimization problem, alcohol effectively provides a stochastic gradient descent, mutation, momentum/inertia, annealing, or whichever minima escape mechanism you prefer to explore social spaces beyond what you've already found.
They both cause cancer. I think you are glorifying poison a little much
On the other hand, they are growing up in an era where weed is either legal or de-criminalized, so perhaps they just have more options.
I did the same thing as a student, because I didn't want to come off to my parents as a heavy drinker. Refusing a beer in front of them, then getting shitfaced with my friends the next night was a pretty common occurrence. You shouldn't take everything your kids say at face value -- and I don't mean that as a bad thing, kids should keep some secrets from their parents, it helps them grow up and learn to be independent.
This is an incredible statistic. ..especially considering what it would be if you removed other drug users, religious abstainers and those who can't for medical reasons. Humans and mind altering substances..
and yelp: https://www.yelp.com/biz/getaway-new-york-2
There are a variety of historically enjoyable and useful establishments that may no longer serve as much of a population in todays world.
Perhaps sober bars are just the beginning?
-Sober bars
-Atheistic churches (social, life events, service)
-Shopless malls (social, activity, meeting place)
These already exist. I think Unitarian Universalist churches are the most common ones, but at least where I live we also have Sunday Assembly.
Still, I'm not a huge fan of soda because it always leaves a sugary film in my mouth that I dislike. I'm a bigger fan of juice-based smoothies. I would love to see more nut/plant "milk" related options (with various spices for flavoring instead of sugar). Pistachio milk is delicious but I've only ever had it home made.
Go play a sport, a video Game, go grab a cup of coffee. Beat off to porn, have a cookout, go to a concert. Go watch a sports game.
If you feel left out.. So what? Then have a beer in moderation.