Tell HN: I can't even get a job offering to work for free
Background: I’m 23, graduated last year with a business degree. I have a bunch of startup experience, having projects mentioned on Techcrunch, TIME, CNet, CBSNews, and more. After a summer of working on a startup with my friend and technical partner, he decided to get a job with one of the big mobile handset developers. That left me with a choice; do something on my own (with limited technical ability) or get a job and learn something.
In September, I decided to give it shot and sent email out to the CEO of a local startup. I figured I wanted to be a part of the growing social product space, so a social analytics company made sense. I kidd you not, the subject of my email was “I want to work for you for free!”. It worked, and I got the attention I wanted. I recall the skype conversation we had later that week. We went over my life story, and he complimented, even gushed over me. “Wow, you guys are rockstars”, “I wish you would have told me sooner, I would have invested in you guys”, “You guys remind me of myself in the 90’s”, “This is exactly how I tell people to find jobs they want”. We traded business stories, discussed the local startup scene. It was nice to hear, and it felt honest and sincere. If he liked me that much, then surely he would have something for me. I introduce him to my partner through email.
Soon after, I’m meeting the CEO and his #1 for the area (they have another office in California). My friend is also driving into the city later for dinner with the pair after work. We chat, he demos the product, tells me all about the operations and such. I refresh him about my crazy past projects. They ask me what I want to do as a role, I tell them I’m open and flexible. Money doesn’t matter to me, I just want the opportunity to learn and experience. “Okay then, we’ll you put you in touch with our marketing guy and see if he has anything for you”. I left feeling pretty happy and confident, having built a positive rapport and established a relationship with someone who “gets it”.
After another skype chat with the head of marketing, I’m even left with a weekend assignment; figure out what position I’d like to fill for the company, and give suggestions on what I’d do for the homepage and product. I indeed brainstorm my role (product development!) and even Photoshop a mockup of a new homepage design, just because I felt like it. But here’s where I failed to recognize the breakdown in communication; the responsibility of handling / recruiting ME, had passed on to a person I’d never met in a different coast. The buck had been passed, as it were. I’d been wiped clear of the conscience of the people I’d attracted from the beginning. Weeks would go by, I would get an occasional email saying “things are crazy, we’re setting Q1 goals.” Oh, the life of a startup I’d assume. Its ok, they’ll get to me eventually. All the while, they corresponded with my friend in the same manner. They were wooing him, and after working only 3 months at a multinational mobile phone developer, he would quit to accept their job offer. That happened this week, leaving me wondering if I should shoot them an email to get things rolling again. I did, and several hours ago, they replied.
“Oh, you didn’t get the email we sent last month? Please see the following:…” It was a rejection letter. A nicely worded, complimentary letter in which apparently I have “rare, entrepreneurial qualities that will make you successful” and that I should “keep trucking”.
Fuck me. 10 weeks of sitting and waiting, expecting something to happen, and I’d only looked to do 1 other interview because I was so sure I wanted to work for this company. Naturally, I have a very emotional response to the rejection; “don’t tell me I’m awesome, but that you don’t have anything for me”…”make sure your interviewees get the godamn reject...
41 comments
[ 3.4 ms ] story [ 95.0 ms ] threadthis was your mistake.
what are your skills? tons of employers on hacker news.
You don't ask the people you network with to employ you. It's taboo and cheapens the relationship. Instead, you expect to refer people to them and them to refer you to people.
This worked here for your friend — you referred him to this company very effectively! But although they referred you to their marketing guy, it didn't work out. Please don't burn any bridges with the CEO. If he really thinks you are a strong candidate, then a short e-mail expressing your regret things didn't work out with marketing and wondering if he knows anyone who's hiring in the area will get you an interview somewhere.
[1] I'd be interested in a source if anyone has it.
(Name and shame!)
That said, I don't think they're bad people at all, just a crazy busy startup.
You answer your own question: But here’s where I failed to recognize the breakdown in communication; the responsibility of handling / recruiting ME, had passed on to a person I’d never met in a different coast.
One lesson: Avoid breakdowns in communication Another lesson: Know where you are in the hiring process at all times, and who has responsibility for your case. A third lesson: Don't put all your eggs in one basket. Always have a backup plan.
1. Never keep only one ball in the air.
2. Don't make yourself look desperate. People get suspicious when you want to work for free.
3. If you have a ball in the air, follow up on it. Don't let it sit for 10 weeks.
I've seen variants of your situation several times in the past. CEO meets someone, is impressed in some manner, passes the contact over to the lower-level person, that person has no time/interest/need for candidate and the process halts, usually after initial expectations were high.
I'll also say I find it a touch odd that after this single experience you find it necessary to post the whole thing here.
tldr; you have some experience, you pursued 1 job opportunity which wasn't even an actual open position req. and then you didn't get hired.
You could fill 100 HN sites with 1000 variants of that exact same story EVERY DAY.
Again, not trying to be harsh, just trying to filter the reality out of this, which is yours is a very non-noteworthy experience in life.
It's a shock to me that I couldn't hustle my way into interning a startup at virtually no cost to them, given my experience. Maybe I'm overrating myself :).
Also, its a small startup, so I would have had to gone through the CEO anyway. If you aren't satisfied with the quality or uniqueness of my story, you have the luxury of flagging, not commenting, or otherwise ignoring it completely :D
Working for free or a reduced rate can be a good strategy to get in the door, I've used it and advocated for it in the past on comments here. However, there still needs to be a bona-fide position and job you're fulfilling, otherwise you're ultimately just some guy hanging out and getting in the way.
I'm neither satisfied nor dissatisfied with your story. What I was pointing out is that it's not a unique experience. It happens to lots of people all the time, the underlying intent of my statement being don't get discouraged by it or dwell on it.
You could try to find something which has monetary value for them and try to create it by yourself and selling it to them.
It doesn't have to be a technological solution it could be any business related thing - potential customer database, sales leads etc.. (I am not sure what you are good at so...)
Basically, if you have something of value you could always try and sell it to someone - and if it is of value someone will pay for it or at least might consider your contributions worth more than what it costs to have you there.
You got rejected, so you "can't get a job?" There are people who have experienced a constant stream of rejection letters since losing their jobs in the recession last year.
A few people didn't seem to care about you, so "nobody gives a shit about you?" What about the people who worked with you in previous startups, or the people who wrote up stories about you, or the professors who invested in you in school? What about the 20+ people who voted you up and left 30+ comments trying to help you for free?
I'm not trying to be argumentative. I just think some perspective could help. You can get a job, just not this one. And people do care about you. Call you mom/dad/friend/brother/favorite professor (someone who's been instrumental in your life so far) and ask them if they have time to hear you vent and give you some advice. Off the top of my head, I can think of at least 5 people just from my school years (not that long ago, but still a few years back) that would listen and give advice to me. I can't imagine there isn't a single person in your life who would do the same.
Anecdotal evidence is not evidence, even (especially!) if the anecdote is your own.
Reminds me of people who have been through a string of failed romantic relationships and resign themselves to resenting the opposite sex. Shows a lack of perspective.
Sorry if this comment comes across as callous, I cant think of another way of expressing this without sounding like a bit of a dick.
If he's asking you to "figure out what position to fill" it means that he cannot think of where to slot you into. In other words, he can't really figure out what he would be paying you for. But he knows your developer friend is good, because you showed him this.
Playing hard to get just works - like it or not.
It also seems to me you may have a talent at recognizing talent - you managed to push your friend into that company and you've done that unknowingly - think what you can do if you actually put your mind into find great people and finding a job for them - or even better if they'll work for you even as a freelancer - and you resell their services to various companies as an consultant or contractor.
Almost as impressive as your reactions in both a. handling the original situation by waiting ten weeks and b. responding to negative feedback here by telling people essentially "flag or GTFO."
You're quite an endearing person and I just can't see why they passed on the chance to have you around.
As for my response to negative feedback, I simply stated that if my story isn't interesting, he was free to ignore it or flag it. HN has tons of stories submitted every minute. I don't see a reason to comment in some, asking about each's relevancy to HN. Thanks :D
1) Don't offer to work for free. It makes you seem like you have no skills. It's also a major hassle for a company, since they're coming under a lot of fire for how they deal with interns. (Nevermind that the medical industry does much worse and it's perfectly fine for them.)
2) Don't put all your eggs in 1 basket. Expect to take MANY interviews to get your first few jobs, and multiple interviews for jobs after that. NEVER sit and wait.
3) Of course nobody cares about your except you. Companies aren't in business to make you feel good. They're trying to make money. In this case, they actually SENT a rejection letter. It's quite common not to get one.
I would never work for free. I'm good at what I'm doing and I create value for that company/person. No need to give this away for free.
1) You reached the wrong people. The focus of power in your case (CEO) was not the one making purchasing decisions (the HR guy)
2) You did not solve a pain in your prospect's business or, you could not sufficiently communicate what problem you would solve as an employee. You should have focused on this in your conversations.
I wouldn't say they used you, and you shouldn't be angry. It just did not make business sense for them and you could not make a sufficiently attractive sales pitch to the company as a whole.
And by the way, if you really consider doing any work without payment, better call it "internship". Otherwise serious business people will never consider you. Who works for nothing is probably just a waste of time and energy.
Don't worry about the time you waited, just press on for the future!
You anchored at "Free" -- bad move.
They already have enough to do. So if you had said, "I have thought a lot about this, and Ii think I can do x, y and z to start and potentially a, b and c later", my gut tells me the outcome would be different.
Offering to do a free internship is indicative of moxy, but offering to do a free internship and having a plan on how you can contribute is truly valuable.
Best of luck.