Yes, I've noticed the same thing! With shower gel I'll smell nice for 30 minutes then it's like you haven't taken a shower at all, but soap is much more potent. The feel of "cleanliness" stays with you much longer.
Just look at the ingredients list, it's just ridiculous how many different compounds are in there. Soap is structurally very simple, but all these derivative cleaning products albeit more complex don't even match the capabilities of regular soap. It's an odd price to pay for convenience.
What you're interpreting as "clean feeling" is likely stripping your skin of its protective oils. That's why we (doctors) don't recommend soaps as a general rule. That oil is there for a reason.
I don't know if that Dove bar has soap in it, but there are many non-soap cleansers of varying degrees of harshness. I only know the brands available in Australia.
You are right, no soap. It calls itself a "beauty bar" hah! I use it and it certainly doesn't cause the astringent and drying effect I get from real soap.
I tried to find out whether it was actually recommended for the skin and it's an ungoogleable topic infested by a toxic combination of beauty product snake-oil and "chemicals are evil" antivaxish insanity so I'm none the wiser.
A theseus ship type issue. As okcando says - it contains fatty acid salts which are what we call soap. However, lots of things contain these without becoming soap e.g. cheese and napalm so... yeah.
I use Enya. 1L for $2.99 from Chemist Warehouse. Probably actually has some soapiness in it but claims to be soap-free. Nowhere near as harsh as bar soap. Smells decent. Lathers well. Australian-made.
Wife gets QV Wash, which is less harsh and generally recommended as a gentle cleanser. Expensive, though. Also Australian-made. If you have dry skin, atopic dermatitis, etc. this is what you need.
Cetaphil is in the same section. About as expensive. Doesn't lather as well. Not sure if Australian-made.
From the ingredients list on the Amazon product listing it contains a number of soaps derived from coconut, palm and tallow (usually beef fat). Sodium X-ate is a soap made from X.
My wife (also a doctor) actually started buying some bars for exactly that reason. Unfortunately they were too harsh. It's an unsolved problem, as far as I know.
Once there's enough demand, I'm sure manufacturers will follow the dollars.
It's not common with refills for those bottles? (more often than not the refills are also in some kind of plastic - so not sure how much plastic it saves though)
Would doctors recommend using nothing at all, just warm water, for e.g. showering or bathing (not talking washing hands after changing diapers or so)? Or why not? It seems to be hard to find actual studies about the effects. In fact I have yet to find one, might be my search skills are lacking. From anecdotal experiments I don't see much difference and no negative effects. I don't like the smell anyway, my skin nor hair seems to care, in fact seems to produce less oil overall probably because it doesn't have to counter removal anymore, and as far as I and close friends can tell my body still smells the same.
In general people should probably bathe less than they do in Western nations. I'm also not aware of any specific studies. Warm water is generally enough, except perhaps in areas that are prone to odour (armpits, groin, etc.).
Bathing is more a social issue than a health issue.
I have no comment on the original comment's correlation of cessation of soap usage with lack of body odor, but as someone who rides a crowded subway every day in the summer, I'm not sure I want people to experiment with this.
People are also unreasonably squeamish toward unpleasant smells. Some things just don't smell great, and that's not actually a problem. It's life, move on.
No I think most people are the right amount of squeamish around unpleasant smells. It's possible to have good hygiene without using products that are overly irritating or with a large environmental impact.
How big a problem is this if you re-oil afterwards?
I use soap and just apply jojoba oil (and aloe) after showering, which I understand is similar to human oil, but it's unclear to me whether it's truly a good enough 1:1 replacement or if I could be doing some kind of harm longer-term.
I don't know about long term harm but it won't replicate all the effects of natural skin oils. Our oils contain compounds that keep the acidity just right and keep microbes from taking over. We've evolved those oils over a long time.
I don't have any published sources about not using soap but I use Mother Dirt products and my understanding is that nitric oxide ("NO") on the skin has a whole bunch of important functions[1] and a lot of NO on our skin comes from ammonia oxidizing bacteria ("AOB")[2] that colonizes on our skin and eats (metabolizes?) our sweat. In theory, all of our modern hygiene products reduce the AOB (and presumably other "good" bacteria) on our skin and less AOB means less NO.
But all of my knowledge in this area came from someone trying to sell me something so it should be taken with a grain of salt. I'm sure there's a microbiologist somewhere on HN who could explain the relationship between soap/skin microbiome much better.
It’s called Mother Dirt[1] they have a line of microbiome friendly personal hygiene products. I only use AO Mist (I think this was the original product) and have been since maybe 2014 or 2015. They’re made in Cambridge, Mass and the original product was developed by (affiliated) bio-tech company AOBiome.
I bought the Mist on a whim after chatting with someone at OpenBiome (AFAIK unaffiliated). I figured I’d try using it instead of face wash for a few months as a little experiment to see how my skin felt.
Well I have lupus so I sometimes get the “butterfly rash” across my cheeks. Anything from hot water to alcohol to a cold can trigger it. I hadn’t even considered that the mist might help with it but I was shockingly and pleasantly surprised that over time the butterfly rash became much more faint so I just kept using it.
It’s entirely possible that it’s the placebo effect but when I get the butterfly rash now it’s imperceptible to anyone who isn’t looking for it. If I were a true scientist I’d stop for a few months and see if if returns with the same intensity but I guess I’m too vain.
Yes it does strip the oils, but a proper bar of soap deposits glycerin which acts as a humectant in the same way that those oils do. I've made my own bar soap for many years now and the only dry skin problems I get is the skin on my shins drying out during winter months -- an area that I don't actively wash with soap.
Homemade or clasical bar soap contains glycerin naturally. Commercially made bar soap usually has the glycerin stipped out because they can resell it at a much higher price in cosmetics and skin care products.
I wash hands tens of times per day. Every time before touching food, or after touching something potentially poisonous (like eliquid, strong detergents, gasoline, etc).
I can't imagine using liquid soap, it doesn't clean at all! It's horrible, hands covered in some oil, can't remove it with water.
> I wash hands tens of times per day. Every time before touching food, or after touching something potentially poisonous (like eliquid, strong detergents, gasoline, etc).
Really? They dry out your skin and leave it prone to damage in my experience. I don't know that they're better than soap.
But from the article:
> Soaps and detergents have been described as the most damaging of all substances routinely applied to skin (43). Anionic and cationic detergents are more harmful than nonionic detergents (54), and increased concentrations of surfactant result in more rapid, severe damage (55). Each time the skin is washed, it undergoes profound changes, most of them transient. However, among persons in occupations such as health care in which frequent handwashing is required, long-term changes in the skin can result in chronic damage, irritant contact dermatitis and eczema, and concomitant changes in flora.
> Irritant contact dermatitis, which is associated with frequent handwashing, is an occupational risks for health-care professionals, with a prevalence of 10% to 45% (56-58). The prevalence of damaged skin on the hands of 410 nurses was reported to be 25.9% in one survey, with 85.6% of nurses reported to have problems at some time. Skin damage was correlated with frequency of glove use and handwashing (56). Washing with plain soap may actually increase the potential for microbial transmission because of a 17-fold increase in the dispersal of bacterial colonies from the skin of the hands (59). Skin condition clearly plays a major role in risk for transmission.
There was a study not so long ago. The alcohol will kill all the bacteria, but the first to return are all the nasties, and there aren't any good bacteria to keep them in check. You basically destroy the balanced ecosystem on your hands.
I've been using bar soap for a good few years now as it was the means of cleaning that I could most-easily buy locally that seemed to incur the least plastic impact. I like to imagine that the invested energy density and cost of transport is better too, compared to gels and liquids.
Regardless of all that worthiness though - I just prefer using the stuff and am gently delighted when I walk into my bathroom and minded of the smell of my grandmother's house, decades ago.
As the article implies, it comes with a certain fondness.
-
Added bonus - it works great on clothes that have been fouled by baby mess or food splatter.
Oh Good Lord, no - I don't know if it's a particularly British thing, but children were threatened with having their "mouths washed out with soap" if they said rude words!
When I was a young kid we were out of toothpaste and some adult suggested using soap. I remember it wasn't very nice, but that's all.
For the sake of science, I just repeated that, so as taught in school, the scientific method.
experiment: brushing teeth with soap instead of toothpaste.
apparatus: toothbrush, soap (sainsbury's cheapo), teeth, darwin-award level of stupidity.
result: surprisingly inoffensive. Almost no taste of soap unless the suds reached the very back of your tongue. Considerably foamier than toothpaste!
conclusion: for this brand of soap at least, an acceptable substitute. Minty soap would be better.
Note that toothpaste actually contains a very fine abrasive which soap lacks. Also laundry soap (came in thick green bars IIRC) was probably far worse.
AFAIK using soap wouldn't do much to clean your teeth. Toothpaste work because it contains abrasive and to a lesser extent fluoride and other additives.
Most of the cleaning comes from the action of the brush on your teeth which physically removes bacterias, leftover food, &c.
Brushing with an abrasive does make a significant difference. The fluoride also has a significant effect on reducing tooth decay. The other parts aren't too important (flavour and mouthfeel). You can definitely get away with using other abrasives, but it won't be as pleasant.
Old toothpastes (and some of the new ones) used sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) in the ingredients, it is slighly abrasive, it is whitening, not at all bad tasting and non-toxic if ingested/swallowed accidentally.
I cannot stand shower gel. It feels like it sticks to my skin, and takes ages to wash off.
Soap is straighforward, effective, washes off easily, and is available in many wonderful forms. I currently use Dr Bronner's inimitable liquid soap, and am looking forward to using some small but ruinously expensive bars i bought from Claus Porto while on holiday.
> Soap is straighforward, effective, washes off easily
I suspect that the real reason why soap feels like it washes off more easily is that it leaves a layer of soap scum on your skin and detergents don't. Those detergents also likely have moisturizers added to compensate for stripping off all of the natural oils that protect your skin.
Shampoo is a detergent, not a soap. Detergents and soaps have different properties. Soaps lose effectiveness and produce soap scum in hard water. Detergents don't. Many body cleansers also cause less skin irritation than your common soaps do because they control alkalinity and add moisturizers.
Surprised to see this on HN, it's not my main gig but recently I've been getting into the details of exporting and selling coconut oil soap from my family's business.
It's a remarkably simple process to make soap from oil or fat. just heat and add a caustic agent. Sodium Hydroxide for bar soap or Potassium Hydroxide for liquid soap.
When I check out the competition and look at the ingredients list I'm surprised at how many different things that are in most products. Most body washes are technically detergents not soaps.
> Most body washes are technically detergents not soaps.
Many bar "soaps" you find in pharmacies and grocery stores are detergent too, at least in the US. If it doesn't say "soap" on the label, it probably isn't.
It's quite remarkable how successful the marketing campaign against bar soap has been such that it's somehow thought of as unclean. All to get us to switch to far, far more wasteful liquid soap.
To be fair: if your hands are dirty like from gardening or working on a bicycle then some of that dirt will stick to the soap and stay there until after a couple of 'clean' uses.
But in my mind that doesn't mean the soap is unclean. After all, the visible dirt is normally a lot less to worry about than the stuff which you don't perceive with your bare eyes. Of which I actually don't know whether it's present on a bar of soap or not - wouldn't be surprised if there are higher levels of bacteria on the surfcae - but whether that actually has a negative effect is something else.
I'm well aware, but I find that a waste of soap. Also (maybe should have made that more clear) I don't care if my soap bar looks dirty, that doesn't really hinder it's functionality.
Devil's advocate: is this not a legitimate concern? e.g. can viruses potentially be transmitted via bar soap?
I use bar soap in my own shower, but I still prefer not to use someone else's bar soap and I use equivalent liquid/foam soap for washing my hands and face.
Sure, viruses and bacteria can spread by bar soap. For instance norovirus is a tough husk mostly immune to alcohol, as are many bacterias which have thick cell walls. But the point of soap is to dissolve the oils, dead cells, and particles on your body that the viruses and bacteria have attached, and to wash them away down the drain.
How is it more likely that the comparatively complex pump mechanism someone else shares does not contain the same germ and virus transmission possibilities? Those pumps often look a little mangy with excess soap remnants by the time the bottle is running low. What of the handle of the shower door? Surely both have the same possibility of germ killing formulation or transmission?
I have no memory of mass outbreaks of $disease from all the schools, teams and friends who happily used someone else's bar soap prior to the 1990s. Just those little foot baths between swimming pool and changing areas for the one known transmission...
A fear of contamination can often just be a fear of touch. Remember when we found out how filthy hot air hand dryers were? My bet is that most of us don't remember, because no matter how filthy they are, people who are afraid to touch will still prefer them.
Some people will always prefer bottled water to tap water, even if the bottle was filled from a tap.
I switched to liquid shower soap after re-grouting the bathroom. I learned that liquid soaps wash off tile far more readily, leaving less scum for mildew and mold. I miss my bar soap (I alternated between Mitchell's Wool Fat and Speick), but it's not worth hastening the day I need to re-grout. One reason I liked bar soap was it was so much more convenient and faster when showering, but that convenience pales in comparison to the inconvenience of shower maintenance and re-grouting. I was blissfully ignorant of the costs of bar soap.
Mostly yes. It does deteriorate if left somewhere they stay damp, or sit in a puddle, but that's a function of the dish. So we always use something that isn't the simple puddle friendly indentation in ceramic often found in bathroom fittings.
When they get small enough to be fiddly, I press the remnant of the old bar into the new one, so near zero waste.
Bar soap has died due to a perceived lack of cleanliness.
People look at a half used bar of soap lying in a shared bathroom and think "Some other dirty person has rubbed that in their private parts. No way I'm touching that!!!".
Soap, unless stored in a well designed soap dish, also always has a partially dissolved slimey bit that's pretty icky.
Interesting, I hadn't considered that. I thought people were switching to liquid because of convenience and the marketing nonsense that it has more of an anti-bacterial effect.
Perhaps it depends on location? Where I live (Michigan, US) I feel like an anachronistic rebel having soap bars at the sinks in our home instead of liquid soap dispensers. I think the perceived lack of cleanliness is one of the main reasons (along with the Bath and Bodyworks marketing machine).
That is maybe true for location. In my location (west-mid-west US), the sinks you buy to install in your home mostly have little dents with drainage to be soap-dishes for bar soap. They're pretty standard everywhere.
A liquid soap dispenser bottle sits there for weeks with all its complex surface area touched by umpteen dirty hands, never in itself getting washed, but a bar of soap comes self contained in a neat wrapper all of its own which is automatically shed with every use. I wouldn't use anything else.
The slimy bit always bugged me. I eventually got over being grossed out, but I still hate that so much of the bar is wasted.
I'm not sure how well each of them will work, but I bought a few different bars of SheaMoisture soap and am mega pleased that the first one (https://www.sheamoisture.com/100-virgin-coconut-oil-daily-hy...) has yet to produce any soap slime. It's the only soap I can recall using that hasn't.
FWIW, I keep it vertical (sitting on the smaller end surface) on a flat shelf in the shower and not in a dish.
I have a good impression of its economics, too. I mostly just use it on my armpits and find a single up-down swipe of the end of the bar per pit produces enough lather to clean each pit and anywhere else the sun doesn't shine. I've been using it for like two months and it still looks like a full bar of soap.
For the past couple years I have been looking to cull/replace shower gels/shampoos with products that have fewer dicey ingredients per the EWG database, and none of the others can compare with how well this one controls BO (both absolutely, and in terms of the amount of time/effort I had to put into washing them with something like Dr. Bronner's to even be able to put up with my own smell.)
Soaps can strip oils from your skin and kill the biome. I recently ran across the book Beyond Soap by Dr. Sandy Skotnicki, a dermatologist who has a practice and teaches in Toronto:
Most of the products we use may get the job done, but they tend to be heavy handed in the chemicals they use. A list of products she recommends that her clients use:
That interview was really interesting. She mentioned light-bulb moments but her description of the skin biome really hit for me. I think she is right that the next 10 years of body science is going to focus on bacteria biome in guts AND skin.
She also hit the nail on the head about how men shower. I cover every inch of my body with soap at least once a day. I have one soap for my body, one for my hair and another for my face. I believed that is how I'm supposed to do it, but now that I think of it I don't remember being taught. I've never thought "What is the science of self-cleaning?"
It is strange the taboos we have around critical aspects of our life. I never talk to my friends about their cleaning regimes just like I don't have serious discussions about defecation. It's like these things are "dirty" so we avoid even talking about them. Yet it seems to me that skin health and gut health are both equally essential to overall health.
I'm so glad to see the Dr Bronner's Evangelism Strike Force turning up on this thread. It really does have everything a soap should have: effective cleaning, lovely fragrances, AND far-out religious teachings!
I stopped washing with soap 6 years ago and never looked back.
For the first month, my skin was so greasy all the time that it felt like I'd been wearing the same clothes for a week, just an hour after putting them on, but then my skin finally adjusted to the new normal.
My skin is soft - much too soft for a man of my age, according to my wife. I have no body odor, even after a heavy workout where I'm still covered in sweat. I can (and have) gone for week long hikes and come back not smelling bad. Contrast this to before where an hour after a shower I'd smell terrible if I didn't put on that nasty underarm deodorant (I don't use that stuff anymore, either).
My father was skeptical when I told him, but eventually I won him over and he experienced something similar when he stopped using soap to wash.
Soap is only for things you can't remove any other way (like motor oil), or for when you need antiseptic conditions.
Just water. My hair is short so I can get away with washing my hair water-only as well, but it becomes a pain for people with long hair (it can become quite unmanageable).
I have long, curly hair and stopped using shampoo and conditioner many years ago. Similar to your experience of adjusting to no soap over the first month or so, I went through that with my hair. Eventually my hair oils normalized and now I only use shampoo/conditioner if I get grease in it or something else that water alone can't handle. The natural oils do a great job on their own controlling frizz.
As I understand it, it's the opposite. I recently grew out my hair, and all the women insist that I've been doing horrible things by shampooing every day. Washing out the oils that protect my hair and keep it from drying out.
I've been washing my hair with just water, and it works better than I expected. In the past, if I didn't wash my scalp before bed I'd feel itchy and sleep badly, but water seems to do a sufficient job of convincing my brain that I'm clean. When I feel sufficiently gross I use shampoo anyway. Conditioner is required to get a brush through it; my hair is very curly and will form knots if not brushed.
Oily skin gentleman here. I could not wash my hair with only water, after a week it would smell like a wet dog in the sun. On the other hand, it's never going to suffer for lack of natural oils.
Some of it could be you're oily because you don't want to be oily.
You wash your hair and get rid of all the oil on the scalp protecting your skin. So your scalp makes as much as it can to replenish. Lather rinse repeat and now you've trained it to always go ham.
I've been washing my hair with just water for a year or so. I'm still oily, but much less so. When I have shorter hair it's on the high side of acceptable. When I have longer hair it's fine - just needs to get pulled down the hairs away from the scalp so it can do its full job.
> I've been washing my hair with just water for a year or so. I'm still oily, but much less so.
Maybe you just got used to it? I shaved my head for a couple of years and it was still oily, just easier to clean. Shampoo, gel or soap don't seem to make a difference, and I'd rather not wash oily skin with just water.
No. I had hair below my chest for 3 years without using shampoo or conditioner and it worked out great. Brushing was way easier and I always got compliments by my lady friends for how great my hair looked. There is also an entire subreddit dedicated to this: /r/nopoo
I've gone 30 years without using soap (or anything else) on my body with similar results and experience to you. Also no problems with body odour; instead quite the opposite, being complimented on how I smell (by intimate partners).
Heh just typed a similar reply to the doctor in another comment. I experience the same. To the point I'm starting to wonder if those millions of liters of soaps and gels used do actually have any positive effects at all. Surely there are people with certain skin conditions etc, and yes you better make sure your hands are clean before cooking food especially in less developed countries, but for the rest?
My guess would be that my skin was used to having all its natural oils washed off regularly, and had compensated by overproducing oil. Once I stopped washing the natural oils off, it took awhile for it to readjust.
edit: i'll also add that i too use soap minimally when showering (nether regions). i'm asian so BO has never really been an issue but i did notice that my athlete's foot has not reappeared since i stopped washing my feet with soap for a few years.
No kidding? Did you do anything else to treat it? I thought diligently cleaning my feet with soap would be helpful. I think it has been, but it's recently started coming back a little bit, so I'm not sure. I've tried a whole bunch of other things too, but didn't do anything other than constantly soap for a while because it didn't come back for so long. And now it's coming back....
I started using boric acid about 6-7 years ago.
I’m nit talking about those ineffective foot powders, just straight pure boric acid (looks like powdered sugar), about a teaspoon every 2/3 days in my shoes.
Basically stopped all smells, no fungal infection of any kind for years, and at the end of the day, my socks still smell of fabric softener.
Doesn’t prevent sweat but the boric acid completely blocks the proliferation of bacteria, so no smells and no fungus can grow.
It’s more effective if you start using it on new shoes as they will never be contaminated by bacteria.
Truly amazing how effective it has been. Just give it a few weeks.
When i was younger, i didn't wash my feet. Then i started getting athlete's foot a lot. Now i wash them with soap. I get athlete's foot occasionally, but not a lot.
Not since moving to Germany. They don't have bidets here, and the toilets are mounted to the wall, so you don't have access to the water intake line to install one, nor can you install washlets :/
I hope you either still use soap when washing your hands, or work from home and don't go out to eat. I work with a bunch of nastyass people that take huge noisy dumps and then just walk right out of the bathroom without washing. No wonder I get sick several times a year now.
Yeah, I don't understand this at all. We went like 200,000 years without soap, and as soon as we discovered soap, we were like where have you been all my life!? And now people think they don't need soap, and I wonder if they really don't smell, or if like our ancestors, learned to tune out the reek?
I'm kind of glad someone brought this up. I've known a handful of people who went soap-free (I used to live in a much more granola part of the country) and they insisted they had no odor.
That was actually true for one of them. The other four or five (including a significant other, who I eventually split up from for a variety of reasons, and this was a small one) definitely had a musky odor that would grow increasingly strong throughout the day.
They all insisted there was no odor, but...well...there was. It was never terrible, but I think there's a reason we've really all moved to soap as a people. Sorry, friends and coworkers.
How we smell depends a lot on our activities. It's really the bacteria that cause sweat to smell bad, so it depends a lot on a physical activity and how long it's been sitting on the body. When a person sweats a lot, like during sports, sweat contains much more water and less food for bacterias, so the smell is less intensive. In high-school I used to spend whole summer on the beach playing sports, sweating like a pig, but also going in and out of water every few hours, and never smelled sweaty although I often would shower just once a day, before going to bed, and often with no soap at all. On the contrary nowadays after a day of 10h sitting in front of the screen I smell horrible even 10 minutes after just having a bath with soap and douche gels and everything.
Indeed, I remember hearing about a product being researched which was a spray made from a certain kind of soil that promoted a different bacterial population on the skin to reduce malodor. Unfortunately I can't find any references now. Still, it actually works pretty well to go to the beach for a while and then you will smell better for days, so I think there's something going on there, whether it's the ocean water or the sand.
There's AOBiome, which makes Mother Dirt, which I use. Anecdotally it works to reduce my smells and need for deodorant and soap/shampoo for body/hair washing & hygiene.
Always wash your hands with soap and water.
Just if you try it, or something like it, do not get excited and jump in head-first like us humans are wont to. And like this[1]. A month is not enough... Like, slow roll 6 months or a year.
Some people are like, "Oh, cool. Stop bathing. That's easy." No. Actually it's more like slowly cut back on detergents. Then slowly cut back on showers. Always be increasing the time and effort used to check if you're a presentable human for society today.
Along those lines, I've found that I'm much more distinctly odor-free for a few days, after I spend a day at the russian bathhouse. Something about sitting in hot tubs, steam rooms, cold showers (I've never done the arctic pool! haha), saunas and banyas, rotating throughout the different conditions somehow cleanses off ALL of the bacteria, to where if I didn't have any deodorant on the next day it wouldn't be a thing.
It's pretty physically taxing to make a whole day of it, especially when you're splitting a bottle of vodka at the same time, but nothing leaves me feeling cleaner.
Correct. 200,000 years dying at an early age from easily-preventable infections, among them cholera and dysentery which are easily spread from --yep, you guessed it-- not washing after using the toilet.
And people wonder why I refuse to take part in "potluck" lunches, or eat others' foods. I need to save the URL to this discussion.
I, too, cannot believe someone who does not use soap does not smell like a wild animal. It is surely a case of adaptation. Hoarders who live with hundreds of animals and urine/feces littering the floor claim they cannot smell the ammonia. They have adapted.
People of hackernews, wash your filthy hands with hot water and soap. (that's not an insult, it's an trivially-proven factual assertion: unwashed hands are filthy.)
Or unless you inherited those beliefs from your parents, who kept you oversanitary as a child. Then the world really is very dangerous for you; childhood is the best time to get exposed to stuff.
My wife was a severely germ-sheltered child like that. She has overcome it, and she does not get sick any more than I, a pretty grimy/dirty/often-filthy farm kid, do.
The hardest thing about that upbringing for her is that her instincts toward our children are very much geared toward avoiding germs at all costs. Because that was how she was raised, that's the only way she really knows how to raise our kids. Fortunately, I'm there to get them really, really dirty.
There's a reason that food safety protocols in the restaurant biz are pretty strict: you don't get a biological adaptation to eating feces by eating a little feces here and there. There's a reason (well, really, several) humanity switched to processing food and water with heat (cooking meat, drinking coffee and tea) when we were coming down out of the trees.
Trying to make fun of someone who's being careful about what they eat is pretty insulting.
The hypochondriac / overactive purity instinct / easy to insult temperament hurts their life and the life of people around them by making them annoying and unpleasant to be around. Also by keeping things super 'clean', they increase the likelihood of their children to develop lifelong allergies. They deserve to be mocked.
Food processing laws are there because certain bad things do happen at scale in factories & restaurants that don't happen in home kitchens and when they are personally eating things in the world around them. The laws have to protect the very young, sick and the very old with their compromised immune systems. So there are different standards for different circumstances.
There is also a matter of degree. A commercial food chef needs to wash their hands, a healthy adult person eating prepared meals by other people doesn't need to wear gloves everywhere to be safe.
Also a lot of restaurants and farms are pretty gross places, go work at a fast food place, butcher, meat processing factory and cow farm to see how gross it gets, even with food safety laws & inspections.
Handwashing and bathing are very different things. Frequent bathing with soap is a new phenomenon in many cultures. Weekly baths were more common than daily baths in the US 50 years ago, and I have heard that many people bathed once or twice a year. Daily or twice-daily showering is extremely recent in almost all cultures, although many cultures had the equivalent of a sponge bath once or twice a day in antiquity.
I think in the past we not only were more comfortable with odor, we also used it to recognize people. And some people suffered from malodor and were rejected by society while others were blessed with good fragrance and benefited.
I quit soap (except on my hands) and it has helped my eczema tremendously. In my experience, I have been able to wash off excessive odor without soap if I feel like I smell, but my normal odor is inoffensive. I wear undershirts to wick the sweat away and clothing (cotton, nylon) that has better properties for keeping odor at a minimum. Polyester clothing (Under Armour) gets that "gym" smell and it's hard to get rid of. The polyester fabric promotes bacteria that create foul odors.
When I see colleagues just leave the bathroom without washing their hands I always have an urge to say something but never do.
The bad thing is that they leave before me as I wash my hands, but then like a minute later I need to use the same door they used to enter our office. :(
We had the "Toepener"[1] installed on the bathroom doors of my last office. A bit tricky to use in heels but otherwise it got nothing but positive feedback.
I've have a weakened immune system and am also a wedding photographer, so staying healthy is important. If I can use a bathroom with touching anything but myself (#1), I'm going to do it. If everything is motion activated I'll wash my hands, otherwise I'll just use hand sanitizer at the next opportunity just to be sure.
For anyone reading this, please don't try this without honest friends or an honest spouse who will give you feedback. It works for people with specific genetics, but not for the majority.
They're have to have crazy specific genetics, I'd wager. I've worked with a no-soap no-deodorant guy before.. You could literally detect where he'd previously been by smell alone. We had to keep doors open even in large conference rooms.
Your gut biome also has an effect. I couldn't tell which made more difference because I did both at the same time, moving away from processed foods, removing sugar wherever I could, and cooking from primary ingredients.
For some, reducing meat also has an effect.
Also, you may need to control the bacteria on your skin with salt based products like Crystal deodorant.
There's a very persuasive argument that humans exhibit aposematism; in particular, that we evolved a very strong scent as a warning to potential predators. Objectively speaking, most humans have extremely strong scents relative to other animals (especially non-aposematic animals), regardless of whether we personally find it strong or offensive. This is somewhat blunted for populations at cold, northern latitudes (e.g. East Asians) that evolved fewer sweat glands, so notwithstanding our origins there are now clearly significant phenotypic variations.
A slightly more radical theory is that we also evolved the ability to dance and chant in unison for similar reasons--to intimate predators. That we evolved to wear clothing (in particular, colorful costumes and displays) would presumably be related, if true.
According to Burkhart, 20/20 patients in their pilot study answered affirmatively that eliminating soap bathing helped their atopic dermatitis (eczema). They mention that this is already a routine recommendation in some countries such as China.
Oh, I also stopped brushing my teeth, I just wash them with water. The first month I had halitosis, but it gradually went away. I'm also more productive than ever because my coworkers have started to send me emails instead of having meetings!
Instead of just assuming, you can see that a lot of fossil teeth tend to look shockingly good.
How are anybody's teeth at 40 if they haven't visited a dentist? Brushing is a cause of receding gums, gum infection, tooth loss, and deep pockets around the gums. Modern sticky flours and sugars also do a number on your teeth, giving bacteria a wonderful place to live.
That being said, if you don't brush your teeth, food will find places in your mouth to sit and rot. Brush your teeth for everyone around you, not for your teeth.
Plenty of people lived past 40, people always include infant mortality in life expectancy statistics and it skews people's image of how long people who became adults lived.
Relatedly, I’ve had six teeth removed because my mouth is too small.
For me they made an excellent necklace (and an amusing way to disturb my sister), but in bygone generations they with the emergency backup replacement teeth because so many of your teeth fell out.
...and simple dental work dates back to before recorded history, suggesting that cavities have always been a problem, even if they were probably much rarer before the mass use of refined sugar.
Cavities are also found in other mammals; they're not even just a human problem. Something like 5% of dogs get cavities. If you have an older dog and get their teeth cleaned, some might need to be pulled.
I even saw something about cavities in dolphins... and, if I remember right, the thing about humans not getting cavities before the advent of the modern diet stems from a dentist who had some unorthodox theories about dental care that were unsupported by systematic research.
Oh, it's the Weston Price foundation people who make that claim...
Underarm "body odor" is caused by a bacterial infection. Sweat itself is mostly salt water and has no strong odor.
It is possible to wipe it out permanently, though difficult, as it has to be done on everything that might touch the area, i.e. clothes, new deodorant, etc, to prevent reinfection.
"I don't smell" is the classic response of someone who smells bad. No offense, it's just that every time in my life where I've encountered someone who has said things like this, they have been someone who smells bad but people around them just weren't letting them know.
There's also the probability that you have met numerous people who rarely/never use soap on their bodies and had no idea. Meanwhile, there's someone who smells bad despite daily soap showers and you complain about them.
I once had a bar of Greek olive soap that left a very slight oil-like residue on my skin after use, and I totally loved how that felt. I'm not quite sure why the soap was that way; maybe the oil hadn't saponified completely or something. The bar looked perfectly normal though, dark green with maybe a slight transparent quality to it (it was long ago, my memory may be slightly incorrect). I have never found such a soap again (my parents had brought it back from their vacation and I have forgotten the brand name by now; this was from before every shop was on the internet), but if anyone can help me find one, that would be really great.
Note that i recommend two "brands" in my comment above, the link isn't to Papoutsanis soap but some smaller one :-). It is very easy to find Papoutsanis soap with a Google search so i didn't link to it.
It's very easy to make the soap yourself and to super-fatten it to your own liking. Basically just mixing the oil with lye and water (and perhaps fragrance). The weight ratios can be obtained with for example this calculator:
I used to have bleeding between my knuckles after moving away from my parents in winter. At first, I thought it was a difference in humidity. Until I started using bar soap (which is what my parents had) instead of liquid soap. Since then, no more problems. I usually buy handmade soap at craft markets on medieval and metal festivals and really enjoy the smell :)
Most my adult life I’ve used Ivory (usually bars), or Dr Bronners (liquid) with a handful of other things at random. The only wash I like besides those would be the Kiehl’s Musk wash, but I’m slightly interested in abandoning soap altogether except for the nasty bits.
This may be a very cool hipster topic and I don't want to disregard the art and skills involved with concocting a great line of soap bars... However, soap bars are not particularly hygienic. This is due to the fact that
[1] they are shared between people in the wash basin and the shower or tub
[2] they are used repeatedly but in reusing it, the user is potentially exposed to old grime and bacteria.
Hospitals have different requirements, they have patients with a weakened immune system.
The bacteria that are in a normal household pose no threat to healthy people. Which is why you shouldn't use antibacterial stuff in your everyday life.
With regards to soap in hospitals: They also have special liquid soap dispensers you can use with your elbows. Again something you don't need in your house.
That's not true at all. I've traveled to most corners of the world, and the vast majority are little blocks of bar soap. Shampoo and Conditioner are usually the only in liquid form.
The only time I've encountered soap rather than shampoo has been in the US (not even Canada) and Gaza (for some odd reason, but I always stay in the same hotel there)
Hotels from Brazil to Kenya, from New Zealand to China, from Pakistan to Denmark, have always had liquid soap for the shower.
In contrary, I've found my skin is much more moisturized when using specific, "superfatted" bar soaps. They're common in farmer's markets and the like and produced by manty artisians.
Soap strips away all the barrier oils produced by your skin to protect itself.
Natural skin is slightly acidic with a pH of around 5.5 and so for the last 30 years I have used tablets of a soap substitute with the same pH value. These are called "sebamed", (manufactured in Germany). Highly recommended.
I'd recommend anyone who has chronic skin issues to give african black soap a try. I'm not sure what exactly is in it that makes it work so well, but it works wonders for a variety of chronic skin irritation resulting symptoms like eczema.
Squirty soaps are more presentable and I'm told don't dry out your skin (I have no proof of this).
I recommend watering the soap down. The amount of soap needed is usually a fraction of the travel of the pump. Additionally when you add water, you needn't rinse before soaping - the soap mixed into the water enables lathering (thus saving water and soap).
I recently made my own soap. I rendered tallow from beef suet, mixed in some coconut and olive oils, then saponified it with plain old lye from the hardware store. It's a magical process and it made me appreciate soap a lot more. Now I use it in the shower instead of my trusty old bars of Irish Spring. I wouldn't say it's any better for my skin than the store-bought bars I used before, but it's quite satisfying to use soap I made myself.
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[ 2.8 ms ] story [ 240 ms ] threadAfter using it I don't feel clean. I feel like I just rubbed cooking oil on my body.
With regular soap bars you get the "clean" feeling which no other product seems to match.
I tried to find out whether it was actually recommended for the skin and it's an ungoogleable topic infested by a toxic combination of beauty product snake-oil and "chemicals are evil" antivaxish insanity so I'm none the wiser.
The ingredients list sodium tallowate or sodium palmitate, which are soaps from animal or vegetable fat, respectively.
Interestingly, the "Palm" in Napalm is also Sodium Palmitate.
"Napalm doesn't dry you skin like soap can"
Wife gets QV Wash, which is less harsh and generally recommended as a gentle cleanser. Expensive, though. Also Australian-made. If you have dry skin, atopic dermatitis, etc. this is what you need.
Cetaphil is in the same section. About as expensive. Doesn't lather as well. Not sure if Australian-made.
> Given the war against plastic, maybe there will be a reaction to all these bottles of handwash. The bar of soap might yet stage a resurgence.
Once there's enough demand, I'm sure manufacturers will follow the dollars.
Bathing is more a social issue than a health issue.
I use soap and just apply jojoba oil (and aloe) after showering, which I understand is similar to human oil, but it's unclear to me whether it's truly a good enough 1:1 replacement or if I could be doing some kind of harm longer-term.
But all of my knowledge in this area came from someone trying to sell me something so it should be taken with a grain of salt. I'm sure there's a microbiologist somewhere on HN who could explain the relationship between soap/skin microbiome much better.
[1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15275864
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrifying_bacteria
What were they selling? Not washing doesn't seem to provide many business opportunities that I can think of. Posies?
I bought the Mist on a whim after chatting with someone at OpenBiome (AFAIK unaffiliated). I figured I’d try using it instead of face wash for a few months as a little experiment to see how my skin felt.
Well I have lupus so I sometimes get the “butterfly rash” across my cheeks. Anything from hot water to alcohol to a cold can trigger it. I hadn’t even considered that the mist might help with it but I was shockingly and pleasantly surprised that over time the butterfly rash became much more faint so I just kept using it.
It’s entirely possible that it’s the placebo effect but when I get the butterfly rash now it’s imperceptible to anyone who isn’t looking for it. If I were a true scientist I’d stop for a few months and see if if returns with the same intensity but I guess I’m too vain.
[1] https://motherdirt.com/
Homemade or clasical bar soap contains glycerin naturally. Commercially made bar soap usually has the glycerin stipped out because they can resell it at a much higher price in cosmetics and skin care products.
Body oils have compounds in them that do things other than act as a simple emollient.
I'm not trying to convince you to change what you're doing. I'm just saying it's not as simple as you're making it out to be.
I wash hands tens of times per day. Every time before touching food, or after touching something potentially poisonous (like eliquid, strong detergents, gasoline, etc).
I can't imagine using liquid soap, it doesn't clean at all! It's horrible, hands covered in some oil, can't remove it with water.
I'm using this https://www.ladymakeup.com/shop/barwa_hypoallergenic_traditi... 0.99 PLN (0.26 USD) for a 100g bar at Carrefour. It's the best soap: vegan, available, cheap.
You may want to read this from the US CDC: When is clean too clean? https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/7/2/70-0225_article
But from the article:
> Soaps and detergents have been described as the most damaging of all substances routinely applied to skin (43). Anionic and cationic detergents are more harmful than nonionic detergents (54), and increased concentrations of surfactant result in more rapid, severe damage (55). Each time the skin is washed, it undergoes profound changes, most of them transient. However, among persons in occupations such as health care in which frequent handwashing is required, long-term changes in the skin can result in chronic damage, irritant contact dermatitis and eczema, and concomitant changes in flora.
> Irritant contact dermatitis, which is associated with frequent handwashing, is an occupational risks for health-care professionals, with a prevalence of 10% to 45% (56-58). The prevalence of damaged skin on the hands of 410 nurses was reported to be 25.9% in one survey, with 85.6% of nurses reported to have problems at some time. Skin damage was correlated with frequency of glove use and handwashing (56). Washing with plain soap may actually increase the potential for microbial transmission because of a 17-fold increase in the dispersal of bacterial colonies from the skin of the hands (59). Skin condition clearly plays a major role in risk for transmission.
Alcohol based cleaners don't work against a variety of germs that are important in healthcare settings. (eg norovirus).
There was a study not so long ago. The alcohol will kill all the bacteria, but the first to return are all the nasties, and there aren't any good bacteria to keep them in check. You basically destroy the balanced ecosystem on your hands.
Regardless of all that worthiness though - I just prefer using the stuff and am gently delighted when I walk into my bathroom and minded of the smell of my grandmother's house, decades ago.
As the article implies, it comes with a certain fondness.
-
Added bonus - it works great on clothes that have been fouled by baby mess or food splatter.
I heard some people wash their teeth with soap, I'm not there yet :))
For the sake of science, I just repeated that, so as taught in school, the scientific method.
experiment: brushing teeth with soap instead of toothpaste.
apparatus: toothbrush, soap (sainsbury's cheapo), teeth, darwin-award level of stupidity.
result: surprisingly inoffensive. Almost no taste of soap unless the suds reached the very back of your tongue. Considerably foamier than toothpaste!
conclusion: for this brand of soap at least, an acceptable substitute. Minty soap would be better.
Note that toothpaste actually contains a very fine abrasive which soap lacks. Also laundry soap (came in thick green bars IIRC) was probably far worse.
Most of the cleaning comes from the action of the brush on your teeth which physically removes bacterias, leftover food, &c.
Soap is straighforward, effective, washes off easily, and is available in many wonderful forms. I currently use Dr Bronner's inimitable liquid soap, and am looking forward to using some small but ruinously expensive bars i bought from Claus Porto while on holiday.
I suspect that the real reason why soap feels like it washes off more easily is that it leaves a layer of soap scum on your skin and detergents don't. Those detergents also likely have moisturizers added to compensate for stripping off all of the natural oils that protect your skin.
It's a remarkably simple process to make soap from oil or fat. just heat and add a caustic agent. Sodium Hydroxide for bar soap or Potassium Hydroxide for liquid soap.
When I check out the competition and look at the ingredients list I'm surprised at how many different things that are in most products. Most body washes are technically detergents not soaps.
Many bar "soaps" you find in pharmacies and grocery stores are detergent too, at least in the US. If it doesn't say "soap" on the label, it probably isn't.
To be fair: if your hands are dirty like from gardening or working on a bicycle then some of that dirt will stick to the soap and stay there until after a couple of 'clean' uses. But in my mind that doesn't mean the soap is unclean. After all, the visible dirt is normally a lot less to worry about than the stuff which you don't perceive with your bare eyes. Of which I actually don't know whether it's present on a bar of soap or not - wouldn't be surprised if there are higher levels of bacteria on the surfcae - but whether that actually has a negative effect is something else.
I use bar soap in my own shower, but I still prefer not to use someone else's bar soap and I use equivalent liquid/foam soap for washing my hands and face.
I have no memory of mass outbreaks of $disease from all the schools, teams and friends who happily used someone else's bar soap prior to the 1990s. Just those little foot baths between swimming pool and changing areas for the one known transmission...
Some people will always prefer bottled water to tap water, even if the bottle was filled from a tap.
When they get small enough to be fiddly, I press the remnant of the old bar into the new one, so near zero waste.
People look at a half used bar of soap lying in a shared bathroom and think "Some other dirty person has rubbed that in their private parts. No way I'm touching that!!!".
Soap, unless stored in a well designed soap dish, also always has a partially dissolved slimey bit that's pretty icky.
Never heard of soap bars being considered dirty ever. That slime is just because the soap has been sitting in puddle of water in a soap-dish.
If the soap bar has "stuff" on it, you just rinse it and rub that stuff off in a second.
I'm not sure how well each of them will work, but I bought a few different bars of SheaMoisture soap and am mega pleased that the first one (https://www.sheamoisture.com/100-virgin-coconut-oil-daily-hy...) has yet to produce any soap slime. It's the only soap I can recall using that hasn't.
FWIW, I keep it vertical (sitting on the smaller end surface) on a flat shelf in the shower and not in a dish.
I have a good impression of its economics, too. I mostly just use it on my armpits and find a single up-down swipe of the end of the bar per pit produces enough lather to clean each pit and anywhere else the sun doesn't shine. I've been using it for like two months and it still looks like a full bar of soap.
For the past couple years I have been looking to cull/replace shower gels/shampoos with products that have fewer dicey ingredients per the EWG database, and none of the others can compare with how well this one controls BO (both absolutely, and in terms of the amount of time/effort I had to put into washing them with something like Dr. Bronner's to even be able to put up with my own smell.)
* https://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Soap-Truth-Beautiful-Healthy/d...
Most of the products we use may get the job done, but they tend to be heavy handed in the chemicals they use. A list of products she recommends that her clients use:
* https://www.producteliminationdiet.com
You don't want to be dirty, but there may be something to the idea of cleaning too much:
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hygiene_hypothesis
An interview on a local public broadcaster:
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGl19JJnaK0 * https://www.tvo.org/video/the-trouble-with-soap
Generally: wash your hands and clean your (private) bits. Most of the extra scrubbing modern (office) workers do is probably unnecessary.
She also hit the nail on the head about how men shower. I cover every inch of my body with soap at least once a day. I have one soap for my body, one for my hair and another for my face. I believed that is how I'm supposed to do it, but now that I think of it I don't remember being taught. I've never thought "What is the science of self-cleaning?"
It is strange the taboos we have around critical aspects of our life. I never talk to my friends about their cleaning regimes just like I don't have serious discussions about defecation. It's like these things are "dirty" so we avoid even talking about them. Yet it seems to me that skin health and gut health are both equally essential to overall health.
I'm here for you, man, when you want to talk.
For the first month, my skin was so greasy all the time that it felt like I'd been wearing the same clothes for a week, just an hour after putting them on, but then my skin finally adjusted to the new normal.
My skin is soft - much too soft for a man of my age, according to my wife. I have no body odor, even after a heavy workout where I'm still covered in sweat. I can (and have) gone for week long hikes and come back not smelling bad. Contrast this to before where an hour after a shower I'd smell terrible if I didn't put on that nasty underarm deodorant (I don't use that stuff anymore, either).
My father was skeptical when I told him, but eventually I won him over and he experienced something similar when he stopped using soap to wash.
Soap is only for things you can't remove any other way (like motor oil), or for when you need antiseptic conditions.
I've been washing my hair with just water, and it works better than I expected. In the past, if I didn't wash my scalp before bed I'd feel itchy and sleep badly, but water seems to do a sufficient job of convincing my brain that I'm clean. When I feel sufficiently gross I use shampoo anyway. Conditioner is required to get a brush through it; my hair is very curly and will form knots if not brushed.
I am not planning on ceasing to use body soap.
You wash your hair and get rid of all the oil on the scalp protecting your skin. So your scalp makes as much as it can to replenish. Lather rinse repeat and now you've trained it to always go ham.
I've been washing my hair with just water for a year or so. I'm still oily, but much less so. When I have shorter hair it's on the high side of acceptable. When I have longer hair it's fine - just needs to get pulled down the hairs away from the scalp so it can do its full job.
Maybe you just got used to it? I shaved my head for a couple of years and it was still oily, just easier to clean. Shampoo, gel or soap don't seem to make a difference, and I'd rather not wash oily skin with just water.
I still use it to wash my hands however.
Do we know the scientific explanation for this? What makes the skin change its oil production levels?
edit: i'll also add that i too use soap minimally when showering (nether regions). i'm asian so BO has never really been an issue but i did notice that my athlete's foot has not reappeared since i stopped washing my feet with soap for a few years.
Basically stopped all smells, no fungal infection of any kind for years, and at the end of the day, my socks still smell of fabric softener.
Doesn’t prevent sweat but the boric acid completely blocks the proliferation of bacteria, so no smells and no fungus can grow.
It’s more effective if you start using it on new shoes as they will never be contaminated by bacteria.
Truly amazing how effective it has been. Just give it a few weeks.
or even a basic jug like the most basic of Indian bathrooms, which takes a little more practice.
That was actually true for one of them. The other four or five (including a significant other, who I eventually split up from for a variety of reasons, and this was a small one) definitely had a musky odor that would grow increasingly strong throughout the day.
They all insisted there was no odor, but...well...there was. It was never terrible, but I think there's a reason we've really all moved to soap as a people. Sorry, friends and coworkers.
Always wash your hands with soap and water.
Just if you try it, or something like it, do not get excited and jump in head-first like us humans are wont to. And like this[1]. A month is not enough... Like, slow roll 6 months or a year.
Some people are like, "Oh, cool. Stop bathing. That's easy." No. Actually it's more like slowly cut back on detergents. Then slowly cut back on showers. Always be increasing the time and effort used to check if you're a presentable human for society today.
1: https://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/25/magazine/my-no-soap-no-sh...
It's pretty physically taxing to make a whole day of it, especially when you're splitting a bottle of vodka at the same time, but nothing leaves me feeling cleaner.
And people wonder why I refuse to take part in "potluck" lunches, or eat others' foods. I need to save the URL to this discussion.
I, too, cannot believe someone who does not use soap does not smell like a wild animal. It is surely a case of adaptation. Hoarders who live with hundreds of animals and urine/feces littering the floor claim they cannot smell the ammonia. They have adapted.
People of hackernews, wash your filthy hands with hot water and soap. (that's not an insult, it's an trivially-proven factual assertion: unwashed hands are filthy.)
Nothing that being fussy, squeamish and hypochondriac can't explain...
Unless your immunocomprimised or old, your body's immune system can handle the everyday bacteria that is everywhere in the world.
The hardest thing about that upbringing for her is that her instincts toward our children are very much geared toward avoiding germs at all costs. Because that was how she was raised, that's the only way she really knows how to raise our kids. Fortunately, I'm there to get them really, really dirty.
Trying to make fun of someone who's being careful about what they eat is pretty insulting.
Food processing laws are there because certain bad things do happen at scale in factories & restaurants that don't happen in home kitchens and when they are personally eating things in the world around them. The laws have to protect the very young, sick and the very old with their compromised immune systems. So there are different standards for different circumstances.
There is also a matter of degree. A commercial food chef needs to wash their hands, a healthy adult person eating prepared meals by other people doesn't need to wear gloves everywhere to be safe.
Also a lot of restaurants and farms are pretty gross places, go work at a fast food place, butcher, meat processing factory and cow farm to see how gross it gets, even with food safety laws & inspections.
I think in the past we not only were more comfortable with odor, we also used it to recognize people. And some people suffered from malodor and were rejected by society while others were blessed with good fragrance and benefited.
I quit soap (except on my hands) and it has helped my eczema tremendously. In my experience, I have been able to wash off excessive odor without soap if I feel like I smell, but my normal odor is inoffensive. I wear undershirts to wick the sweat away and clothing (cotton, nylon) that has better properties for keeping odor at a minimum. Polyester clothing (Under Armour) gets that "gym" smell and it's hard to get rid of. The polyester fabric promotes bacteria that create foul odors.
The bad thing is that they leave before me as I wash my hands, but then like a minute later I need to use the same door they used to enter our office. :(
[1] https://www.thetoepener.com
Perhaps they have mastered the art of pissing without pissing on their hands...
It'd hit you like a wall.
For some, reducing meat also has an effect.
Also, you may need to control the bacteria on your skin with salt based products like Crystal deodorant.
A slightly more radical theory is that we also evolved the ability to dance and chant in unison for similar reasons--to intimate predators. That we evolved to wear clothing (in particular, colorful costumes and displays) would presumably be related, if true.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18986472
How are anybody's teeth at 40 if they haven't visited a dentist? Brushing is a cause of receding gums, gum infection, tooth loss, and deep pockets around the gums. Modern sticky flours and sugars also do a number on your teeth, giving bacteria a wonderful place to live.
That being said, if you don't brush your teeth, food will find places in your mouth to sit and rot. Brush your teeth for everyone around you, not for your teeth.
For me they made an excellent necklace (and an amusing way to disturb my sister), but in bygone generations they with the emergency backup replacement teeth because so many of your teeth fell out.
I even saw something about cavities in dolphins... and, if I remember right, the thing about humans not getting cavities before the advent of the modern diet stems from a dentist who had some unorthodox theories about dental care that were unsupported by systematic research.
Oh, it's the Weston Price foundation people who make that claim...
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Weston_A._Price_Foundation
https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/sbm-weston-prices-appalling...
It is possible to wipe it out permanently, though difficult, as it has to be done on everything that might touch the area, i.e. clothes, new deodorant, etc, to prevent reinfection.
For a more hand made one check this one too: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Greek-Traditional-Pure-Olive-Oil-So...
http://www.soapcalc.net/calc/soapcalcwp.asp
[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mysore_Sandal_Soap
[1] they are shared between people in the wash basin and the shower or tub
[2] they are used repeatedly but in reusing it, the user is potentially exposed to old grime and bacteria.
The bacteria that are in a normal household pose no threat to healthy people. Which is why you shouldn't use antibacterial stuff in your everyday life.
With regards to soap in hospitals: They also have special liquid soap dispensers you can use with your elbows. Again something you don't need in your house.
Hotels from Brazil to Kenya, from New Zealand to China, from Pakistan to Denmark, have always had liquid soap for the shower.
Natural skin is slightly acidic with a pH of around 5.5 and so for the last 30 years I have used tablets of a soap substitute with the same pH value. These are called "sebamed", (manufactured in Germany). Highly recommended.
But is it about the old searchengine-gag that there are more pieces of soap found - than towels ? [rolleyes]
I recommend watering the soap down. The amount of soap needed is usually a fraction of the travel of the pump. Additionally when you add water, you needn't rinse before soaping - the soap mixed into the water enables lathering (thus saving water and soap).