I already have a mechanical keyboard for one of the two desks, and in the new year I'll only have _one_ desk, so I'll move that keyboard over to there. I don't mind the trackpad, but I've considered getting one of those vertical mice.
I think using an external keyboard should just be a general assumption for laptop usage. The built ins are terrible due to the misaligned priorities of manufacturers both in terms of key depth and wear resistance. I type strong, maybe even stronk, so keyboards have a definite lifetime to them.
Do you use an external monitor? That's the most important part of the setup, IMO.
I said two monitors but what I mean is one for each location - many people I know seem to prefer two but I think it's an antipattern (move your head, instead of alt+tab or similar)
Daily driver for work is a Thinkpad E580 and it’s by far the closest thing I’ve typed on to the vaunted 2015MBP keyboard to the point of me considering buying one for personal use and throwing Linux on it.
Especially the trackpad and its gestures. I have a surface book at work and the trackpad is just dreadful compared to MacBook. Everything else is pretty ok
I switched when the surface book 1 came out (now on a surface book 2) but man I still miss the customizable trackpad gestures I had on my macbook pro. I don't recall the program I used but it allowed for gestures like three fingers with the index tapping to move to the next chrome tab to the left etc. I have been trying for years to replicate that in windows :(
I'm glad that others are voicing the same issues I'm experiencing. Sometimes I wonder if I'm taking crazy pills.
My solution has been to place an Apple bluetooth keyboard -on top- of my 15" MBP keyboard and that seems to work pretty well, but wow, it shouldn't have come to this...
Thankfully I get to make my own hardware decisions, so I've made a point of ordering a new MBP every time a new revision is released, and promptly returning it to Apple the next day when I realize the keyboard is still absolute rubbish.
I would like to think that maybe if some person at Apple runs a report for returns and see that "keyboard" accounts for a huge majority of returns, they may actually act with some semblance of haste.
And yet even in this story, there are multiple comments a la "Yawn. I can't believe this is an issue. Apple shouldn't be paying attention to niche complainers."
Because the level of vitriol is not commensurate with the problem? They'll replace the keyboards, most people don't have issues. (I know I don't, 2+ years in).
Nerd entitlement rage is monotonous. The latest models 4th gen keyboards are pretty much fine.
"they'll replace it with the same faulty keyboard"
We know they've gone through several revisions that have purportedly reduced the incidents of problems, and they'll likely go through more improvements. When you get your keyboard replaced they will use the better variant.
Can't believe I haven't thought of this! I've been using an Apple BT keyboard with my MBP but never thought to stack it right on top of the butterfly keyboard. I can confirm that it fits the 13" MPB, just like your 15"!
Haven't tried that, but it really sounds it would be terrible to the wrists after prolonged use (in which case "prolonged" would mean longer than 10-15 minutes).
Update: my Apple BT keyboard (which is many years old -- it takes 3 AA batteries, not 2) slightly covers the top of the trackpad on my 13" MBP. This means that the palm rejection algorithm does not work as well. I may be able to get it to work for me by just adjusting how I hold my hands when typing, but it's not a clear home-run with my smaller laptop and possibly larger keyboard. I would seriously consider getting a smaller BT keyboard to make this work, though.
>My solution has been to place an Apple bluetooth keyboard -on top- of my 15" MBP keyboard and that seems to work pretty well, but wow, it shouldn't have come to this...
I did that with my 2008 unibody Macbook Pro (yes, Macbook keyboards also sometimes broke pre-2016), which also suffered from EM209 [1] (second time, beyond Apple's free-fix period). I used heavy-duty rubber bands to both hold the screen together along the non-visible borders, and affix the wireless keyboard over the computer's. Certainly something to never ever show anyone else, but completely functional with the exception of the inability to close up the computer. Only after failing to start one day did I replace it with the 2012 non-Retina I am typing on; come to think of it, it's now exactly as old as the 2008 when it completely died, albeit in full working order. (It did need a keyboard repair. I am hard on keyboards.)
It's funny, I resisted an upgrade until my 2015 MBP became unusable, in part because I dreaded the keyboard. I do miss physical function keys, but I actually like the more clacky & tactile butterfly keys.
Maybe I'll feel differently once I finally manage to work a crumb underneath one of them.
Yeah, the feel of the butterfly mechanism is subjectively excellent. I can type faster on it than even my mech keyboard at home, which is a very impressive feat. But my MacBook is going in for its second keyboard repair in a year soon, so...
They're apparently ditching the butterfly keyboard in the next redesign. Bittersweet as someone who loves the keyfeel, but I guess it's for the best so here's hoping.
The new scissor design is said to feel more like the butterfly but with more travel rather than reverting to the old scissor design, if that makes you feel any better.
Switched to a thinkpad x1 carbon just over a month ago, coming from years of macbooks. I'm over the moon. The trackpad isn't as good, but all the things I use the trackpad for are easily replaced with keyboard shortcuts.
Yeah, the T-Series keyboards are even better than the X1 Carbon keyboard, and they are a field-replacable unit, and easy to source and replace if they fail or have issues.
Same! I installed the Pop! OS Linux distro and everything seems fine. It doesn’t have the battery life I’d hope, but I have a terminal and 32GB memory for less than a new Macbook with less memory. The keyboard works well.
I'm clinging to my 2015 MBP until it breaks, and it scared me a few times recently. So I bought a backup x230 for ~$100 just in case, and loaded Pop!.
To be honest, I think I like Pop! better than OSX. I hadn't used linux distros before because I'm not trying to spend my time fiddling around with the OS, I want things to just work and get out of my way. Pop! does. It's got that miryokuteki hinshitsu. And the ability to use exactly the same packages as our ubuntu webservers has already helped me debug a buildpack issue.
I'll certainly consider supporting System76 when I'm next looking for a brand-new computer.
PopOS is fantastic, and if you're looking to stay in the Ubuntu domain it's by far the best version out there. But your tastes sound a lot like mine, so I'd like to throw out a recommendation for Manjaro, it's incredibly well-polished and the rolling-release is great. It'll likely run a bit faster too since it's Arch-based.
I went with an XPS13 a couple years ago. Display is great (I'd say on-par with Apple), keyboard is far superior to the new MacBooks, touchpad is about 90% compared to MacBooks, and I'm pretty sure it's thinner. For sure the smaller bezel gives it a smaller footprint.
Battery life was pretty decent after autotuning power settings through powertop, too. Better than I'm getting on my current work-issued MacBook, at least.
Only real annoyance for me was the wifi, which would vanish off the face of the earth after resuming from suspend. But I was able to replace it with a $15 Intel, a tiny screwdriver, and some patience.
I don't get what people have with apple's trackpad. I once got some second hand macbook air or something for work, and it felt like sliding my finger on a fine grained sandpaper. A jarring experience that I didn't like.
Pretty much anything else I ever used was more pleasant than that.
> If Apple releases their new Macs with an identical keyboard, then I'm ditching Macs and will pick up a Microsoft Surface Book or something similar. Whatever it is, I'll make sure to pick a laptop that has a god damned functional keyboard.
Same here, MBP keyboards are unbearable. Trying to develop on OSX has become a hassle. Gotta jump through hoops to get gdb to work. Windows with WSL on a Surface Book feels extremely tempting as of late.
I could grab a copy of Windows 10 LTSC and not have to get bothered by untimely updates, Cortana, other bloatware and even telemetry.
I've been using Windows for the past couple of weeks and, granted maybe I haven't really given it a chance, using it after using Macs for 10+ years is not great.
Maybe developing on macOS has become a hassle (I don't see that, but sure), but doing everything on Windows is a hassle. Taking a screenshot. Opening the right file. Displaying UI at a reasonable scale. Think what you want of macOS 'recently', but Windows is just full of bets and decisions that show they're not really concerned about the user experience.
It's amazing how bad Windows still is at this. In my experience, connecting monitors of different densities results in crazy things breaking, like the "maximize window" feature.
It's also funny, though, how selectively we remember things.
Only a few years ago Mac multi-monitor support was horrific. You couldn't straddle two screens with a window. And heaven help you if you were dealing with full screen, your second monitor was effectively disabled.
My experience is totally different. I use monitors of different densities every day, and move things between them, etc. Nothing bad happens, and maximising just works.
The only bad Windows density thing I run into is when I occasionally remote desktop into Windows Server 2012, which doesn't know about HiDPI or resolution changes, so if it starts on the wrong screen everything is hilariously tiny. That's fixed in more recent Windows Server versions.
I have a different experience. I connect to 3x HD monitors at work, one of which is portrait. At home I connect to a 3K monitor and a portrait 1980x1200 one. All works flawlessly for me.
Former is PrtScn key on my keyboard. Microsoft ships Snipping Tools and lately Snip n Sketch for screenshots - never had any issues with either.
Latter - not sure what you mean - opening the right file as in setting default program to open a file? That's easy enough and it's the best experience on Windows.
PrtScn only if you want to paste it into an image editing program. If you want to save it as file (which is what most people do) than it's some combo. I still remember how it was common for people to send me word files with screenshots pasted, they didn't know better.
Press print screen and it does... I'm not sure what?
I /remembered "Snipping Tool", so I searched for "Snip" and launched that, and it shows a menu that says like "Snipping Tool is deprecated, use Snip n Sketch" so you click that and a new app opens (but old one stays open as well) and you take your screenshot and then its open in a window that you have to go and save.
I know I'm biased because its what I'm used to for 10 years, but on Mac I just have the (insane) cmd + shift + 4 shortcut engrained that'll snip a part of my screen and save to my Desktop. It's just so much quicker than Windows.
re opening file: I miss Quicklook to make sure I have the right file selected. Also miss being able to drag a file into an open dialogue box to select it to open.
> Press print screen and it does... I'm not sure what?
Copies it into the buffer, silently. No notification, nothing. Great UX.
In Ubuntu it's even better, it actually saves it as an image file (and does the annoying shutter effect). But the repeat key is not turned off... so if by any chance you hold it down by mistake, thinking it was the right ctrl, oh boy, you get a shitstorm of shutter effects and dozens of screenshots in the pictures folder. Very annoying. I don't know which I hate more, Ubuntu or Windows.
This is actually the one use case where I'm happiest with the Mac + touchbar. OSX lets you screenshot a portion of the screen, a particular window, or the entire screen, and save it to clipboard or desktop, and the keyboard combinations to choose between these are pretty hard to remember.
Taking a screen shot hard on Windows? Windows-shift-S lets you grab a region vs macbook's shift-command-3 or 4 or 5, or whatever it is (I don't currentlyy have a mac).
anyway, I will say that WSL is a lot better than what we had, but it's no where near as great as terminal working on the Mac. Maybe WSL 2.0 will be better. But I do miss my Mac tooling.
Thanks, I didn't know about this! I'll give it a go!
I've been using Lightshot to try and make screenshot taking a bit more bearable, but its still no cmd-shift-4 drag region and have a screenshot on my desktop.
Eh, as someone who's primarily used Windows (and a bit of Linux with xfce) for my entire life I find Macs basically unusable (seriously how do I browse the file system). I think it's more of a question of familiarity than anything else.
What do you find lacking in Finder for browsing the filesystem? Also, Spotlight tends to work great for me whereas Windows search almost never finds what I want.
You also have the terminal, so you're free to `cd`, `find`, `locate`, etc...
I hear you about Finder. Windows File explorer seems a lot easier and more feature rich compared to Finder. The single most annoying thing is that there is no easy/ obvious way to grab the path to a file/folder in Finder, which seems like the most basic of features. I did figure out a keyboard shortcut at some point, but Finder feels so dated as a file manager.
If the Path bar is visible, you can right-click at any point along the path of the selected file and select "Copy Path." You can also just drag an icon from a Finder window into any window that accepts text, including Terminal, and it'll paste the fully qualified path right in.
I always used to find Windows File Explorer to be the one that was less feature-rich, but I haven't used it in... we'll just say a shamefully long time. But as someone who got used to Macs an equally long time ago, I've wondered if it's because the Mac seemed to make drag-and-drop such a central way of manipulating files and Windows emphasized "select object - select operation" as its central metaphor. If you're used to one way, moving to other system feels weird and clunky.
As a life-long Mac user, I feel the opposite. Whenever I have to use Windows, it feels like Windows Explorer is missing lots of features I take for granted, some that the Mac has had since the 90's. Stuff like spring-loaded drag and drop, directory sizes being calculated in list views, QuickLook... It also has some really braindead design choices like sorting directories separate from files, making navigating with the keyboard a pain (and last I checked, this can't even be turned off!)
To me Windows Explorer feels like it hasn't been updated with modern features since XP, aside from adding the ribbon
Interesting. I use a MBP for work, and hate that Finder intermixes directories and files. I much prefer having directories sorted separately: it makes it easier to drill down through a hierarchy of all the directories are grouped together...
I browse my file system a lot with the keyboard by typing the first few letters in a file name, and if directories are sorted on the top, that means getting to a file starting with the letter "F" is way more difficult when there are also directories named with "F". It also makes things messy when you have related files and folder. E.g. how Firefox saves a website as a "page name.html" and a directory with the assets "page name files". Suddenly these aren't grouped together and copying them together means scrolling back and forth.
At least in the Finder on the Mac you can turn your preferred behavior on (it's in preferences/advanced). On Windows AFAIK there is no setting for it.
I don't mean just sorting a window by file type - Finder has a global "Keep folders on top when sorting by name" preference that applies to all windows.
AFAIK there is no way to get Windows to not sort folders on top.
> The single most annoying thing is that there is no easy/ obvious way to grab the path to a file/folder in Finder, which seems like the most basic of features.
Right click and hold down the option key, I believe.
I’ll grant you it’s not obvious, but it’s quite easy once you know (as with most things in GUIs): just drag it. You can drag a file/folder from Finder to Terminal or a text editor and it’ll populate the full path.
You can even drag a folder from a Finder window to a save prompt or web browser upload prompt and it’ll relocate you to that directory in the prompt.
The rich drag and drop functionality is one of my favorite features of macOS.
If you're still using macOS/Finder, try entering `defaults write com.apple.finder _FXShowPosixPathInTitle -bool true` in Terminal and restarting Finder, it'll show the full path in the title bar.
MacOS shine truly with the adoption of companion apps, like Alfred. Bettertouchtool, Popclip, Fantastical, Post-it apps, Bartender, and others (like totalfinder and totalspace) and the integration of these app in the status bar or finder or even the integration with iOS.
Linux desktop experience and all its software suite are rudimentary compared to MacOS with these additions. I'm coming from there and before that Windows, and MacOS is definitivelly the OS which offer the best desktop experience.
Finder is probably the worst part of using a Mac. But explorer isn’t that much better either
I am currently forced to use windows and it’s near impossible to get anything done with it without feeling frustrated. It simply doesn’t follow my speed and line of thought on anything.
I am quite shocked after using Mac for 7 years how little progress or even regression windows 10 went through. Without making this into a windows bashing thread only the explorer related things I can think of:
- unzip hidden behind right click or freaking menu button. And a dialog with checkbox to “show files after extraction”. Mac: double click. New folder. Done
- rename through right click or f2. Laptop means fn+f2.
Mac: press enter, type, done
- quicklook on Mac is the single greatest feature ever. Mainly because it works in file dialogs. Need to upload a file but don’t know which one? Just quicklook. Windows afaik has no equivalent
- somewhat related, maximum length of file paths. There is no excuse for that in 2019. If unzipping fails because of this the software is just plain bad
And this is just explorer which I barely use. Shocking
Interesting! Having used a Mac for 6 months after years of Windows, I had quite the opposite feelings:
> unzip hidden behind right click or freaking menu button
By default double click or Enter will cause Explorer to peak into .zip files, which is more natural to me as I might not want to unzip the whole file to see the contents.
> rename through right click or f2
The fact that in Finder the Enter button does not actually enter a directory or run/open a file but let me rename it was the biggest surprise. I personally rename filesystem objects rarely, while I 'execute' them all the time, it does not make sense!
> quicklook on Mac is the single greatest feature ever. Mainly because it works in file dialogs. (...) Windows afaik has no equivalent
Fully agree - it is a very useful feature. Explorer also has it under 'Preview pane' name, but it's disabled by default. I think that Mac version is better, because if I remember correctly it does preview PDF files, while Explorer does not. Other typical files work fine.
> The fact that in Finder the Enter button does not actually enter a directory or run/open a file but let me rename it was the biggest surprise. I personally rename filesystem objects rarely, while I 'execute' them all the time, it does not make sense!
You are right, I hadn’t thought of that. But there is an easy solution that imho in a way is better anyways:
CMD arrow allows you to navigate through file structure including drill down, I.e. open folder.
CMD o opens/runs any file selected (also opens folders so it’s a not-so-elegant replacement for open on enter)
This to me makes more sense though now that I think about it because it differentiates between running (potentially unsafe/slow) and quick keyboard navigation through folders. I admit the CMD arrow functionality is a bit hidden
I feel like much of that is a matter of convention. Why wouldn't you put extract in the right-click menu, which can be extended by any number of applications with whatever useful functions. It's just functional in a way that makes sense.
Renaming with anything other than Enter makes sense because Enter opens the file.
The file path thing is bizarre. Windows 10 supports a path length of 32767 characters. But last I checked you had to change a registry setting before it was the default. And getting W10 to respect a long file path in Python programmatically was a huge pain.
> Renaming with anything other than Enter makes sense because Enter opens the file.
Does it? Enter is “text confirmation, make new line”.
With single line inputs it’s expected to work like a submit for e.g. a search. Submitting a file name change happens with enter on windows as well. Now if you rename with f2, then submit with enter and accidentally press enter a single time you suddenly have executed or opened something you only wanted to rename. Enter, the most prominent big button with a single function after space, suddenly becomes a completely orthogonal context sensitive option. That’s weird
And don’t get me started on the use of enter in Microsoft teams based on context of your message...
If you are in a list or ‘’’ code formatted block the first enter will break out and allow you to write plain text below in the same message, the second enter will send the message
Ehm. If you're in the middle of writing text, yes. Which you aren't if you're going through a directory with the explorer. "Enter" also activates buttons. Enter is always context-sensitive. It changes depending on the application and context. I don't see what's wrong with this.
Definitely agree here. I have a 2014 MBP. I can't let go of it. Last year I bought a brand new laptop with Windows 10 on it. I definitely think it is a major improvement over all Windows since XP (better than XP of course too).
I told myself I have to eventually migrate... still hasn't happened. There's just no reason to dive into horrible Pythoning, Dockering, NodeJSing (do I have to bring up Node-Gyp?)
For development Windows has a long way to go, even with WSL.
> Maybe developing on macOS has become a hassle (I don't see that, but sure), but doing everything on Windows is a hassle.
I have Windows installed on a Bootcamp partition on my Macbook Pro. Aside from the hassle and quirks of a different operating systems (coming from MacOS I find Windows extremely lacking in UX), I find perplexing the way Windows handles color profiles. Same computer, same screen, but everything is super saturated in Windows. In some websites with a lot of color in the background it can be jarring.
I run Windows in Bootcamp too, but gods the keyboard and especially the trackpad are horrendous. I have the 2016 model, and hate the keyboard even in MacOS, but it's really obvious that Apple have deliberately crippled the Windows drivers.
I eventually came across trackpad++, which at least renders it usable, but still unpleasant - I travel with a USB mouse these days (sigh, which obviously means a USB dongle for the MBP...).
Not really surprising. Old MBA 2013 has an awesome keyboard for coding (and is overall a great terminal device), and the Apple Wireless is identical to some MBA/MBP keyboards. The effective distance between the keys and the overall general width of the keyboard are pretty much en par with "proper" desktop keyboards, with excellent responsiveness and key travel. The MBP 2018 is another deal altogether, obviously. Sad, sad story.
The Surface Book 2's (the model I own) keyboard is probably one of the best laptop keyboard on the market today. Proper key travel and spacing and it's even backlit. I particularly like that they volume controls are on F1-F3 since they plus the Fn key can be operated single-handedly.
I just wish it ran Linux better - I find Windows unusable.
I own a Surface Book 2 and a Surface Laptop 2. Both are amazing but I find the Laptop 2's keyboard better because of the fabric on it (which sounds bizarre).
Either way, except for some Windows annoyances I really don't miss my MacBooks.
When I first got it, it was fantastic, the best laptop keyboard I've ever used - over time the keys have got a little squishy though. Not enough to be an issue but it does make be a bit sad...
I had a Surface Pro 4 before this and the keyboard on that was also amazing despite a much smaller size, and the keys didn't degrade at all.
I just installed Ubuntu on mine and after updating the kernel with surface drivers[1]
It works surprisingly well (Touch works, detach clipboard, nvidia-gpu, function keys). Its really a great linux machine tbh
1 https://github.com/jakeday/linux-surface
I also dislike the keyboards, but it’s not quite enough to prevent me from buying one.
The real showstopper is that the keyboard is an almost certain failure point and fixing it means a multi-week wait. Losing my primary machine for such a long time would be a catastrophe. With Lenovo and Dell, I can easily add a 5 year next-business-day on-site service warranty—for the same price as AppleCare+. But AppleCare has no business-class warranty service options, just shitty mail-in service.
I bought a ThinkPad P1 recently. There was an issue with the touchpad I noticed as soon as I unboxed it. I called Lenovo Premier support, which has no wait time and no phone menu: calls are answered by a highly autonomous support agent (I believe in Florida) who can do whatever is needed to fix the problem. By noon the next day, technician was onsite and replaced the entire top half of the unit (equivalent to the MacBook keyboard repair).
The Surface Book 2 is no question, hands-down one of the best pieces of kit I've ever ever owned, it's a phenomenal machine and I've not regretted moving back to Windows for a single second (except for a decent terminal, but that's almost here too)
When the battery dies on the Surface Book, you won't be able to repair it even at a Microsoft Support center. They will just take it back and offer a cheaper price on a replacement. With an iFixit repairability score of 1, it's ridiculously difficult to do the replacement yourself too.
Having to throw out a fully functional device once the battery goes weak should be a practice that gets banned at least for the sake of the environment.
I sold my MBP 2018 13” i5 and the only praise it’ll ever get for me is it’s resale value. I did have the box, and it was in perfect condition, but I almost got it’s original cost when I sold it to a refurbishment place. I replaced it with a Surface Pro 6 13” i5, which I was able to pick up for the money. And what a beast that little machine has been.
I had a few worries going into it. Would it be able to sit on my lap and other laptopy places, was Windows going to be alright, what about development. Stuff like that. It can function as a laptop, in fact it’s probably the best machine I’ve ever had on my legs because the hot part doesn’t touch you. It can’t sit on your chest while you lie down, however, so it’s certainly not a full laptop replacement if you need those positions. Windows with WSL has been amazing though. The only thing I’ve missed from OS/X was iMessage integration, and that was already annoying because more and more of my connections have been switching to android. It’s probably the first device I’ve been genuinely excited about since I got my first smartphone, and ironically it feels like something Apple should’ve made. And not just the design, the ability to isolate your dev environment with suse enterprise is just so much better than containers on os/x. Probably not better than dual-booting if you need more speed, but I don’t.
Is there a particular distribution's customizations that you like? I've tried Ubuntu/Gnome and Manjaro/KDE and thought both were pretty bad out of the box. I can go into more detail if necessary...
I asked my workplace if I could switch from the new macbook pro with the touchbar I got when I joined to linux on thinkpad (this was after a month of using the macbook pro btw), they agreed and I got an x1 carbon with ubuntu on it.
So much better IMO, just the keyboard alone was worth the switch. I was a little worried I would miss the display but I really don't mind the smaller screen.
I switched to a Thinkpad after I had the horror of using a new Macbook. Running Ubuntu is lovely, so much so that for a developer there is little reason to be using a Macbook anymore. You can get a lot more bang for the buck using a Thinkpad AND have a functional keyboard.
Apple should be very worried. Once they loose the developers, users won't be long to follow.
Why do you say that? Honest question - nowadays it seems like most users are just using web apps, so less need for native apps anyway. Plus the users are still there, so I'd think market forces would keep highly-used native apps going anyway.
Dell XPS15 with Ubuntu has literally been my best developer environment ever.
Unfortunately my current gig is all MBP and I feel completely handicapped, even after many months - to the point I have resorted to a "proper" mechanical keyboard.
Yup, I've had my XPS15 for over 3 years and the keyboard (and webcam) are the weakest elements. The keyboard still feels terrible...somehow it has the worst of both worlds, poor key travel and too large a spacing between keys. Typing has always felt very awkward. In comparison, I absolutely love the Surface Pro 4 keyboard which has wonderful key travel and spacing.
I absolutely agree about the Surface Pro 4 keyboard: I've been using one as my personal laptop for the last 3,5 years and I absolutely love it. Although I must say the keyboard on my girlfriend's Surface Laptop feels slightly better though.
On the other hand, it seems totally fine with multiple displays on a desktop, or a laptop used as if it's a desktop. Is it live plugging and unplugging that causes problems?
Another way around this for power users and devs that a lot of people seem to overlook is to get a 6-core Mac Mini and a mechanical keyboard. With a retina monitor, it's a great combination.
As a touch typist and massive terminal keybindings user, I won't compromise on the keyboard. Apple needs to wake up and realise which slice of their market they are alienating. I'd say it's the most important one—the developers and creators. There's a sense that at Apple HQ right now, the "Pro" in "MacBook Pro" no longer means "professional" but rather "prosumer." That is wrong, so a major course correction is in order before creative types start fleeing the brand in earnest (judging by this thread and others, they may have already).
> With a retina monitor, it's a great combination.
Sadly, the Retina monitor segment is a complete failure. Several 5K screens came out in 2015, along with the 27" Retina iMac, ... and then the market died off. The UltraFine 5K is finally available again, but it's being sold at 2015 prices (1400€ here). At that point you might as well get an iMac with eight cores, a dedicated GPU, and a semi-replaceable hard drive instead of the Mini.
In an ideal world, we'd have 8K ultrawide Retina displays by now. Sigh...
I feel like I've been seeing this trend as well. I've got an DELL XPS15 and I love it (4-5 years old now)ーgreat keyboard.
But, for anything that needs good GPU performance, they still hold the upper hand in hardware-software working in tandem, it's hard to get the same performance out of anything else.
Mac to Dell/Ubuntu here and completely agree. I can understand if you need some media creation applications sticking with Mac (although I'd switch to Win10), but as a fellow developer it has been awesome. I mean I'm completely shocked how I don't even remotely miss anything from Mac. Well, ok, not quite true - Macs have a slightly smoother UI which I like and a bit better fonts, and I miss 1 or 2 trackpad gestures. But everything else is equal on Ubuntu or better. I ran into 2-3 problems that needed some non-trivial linux admin, so I'm not advocating it for non-tech person usage.
The only irritation about the experience is when you switch windows and touch the touchpad, it forces a quick scroll down the page. It used to be maddening, but I found one "fix" that made it happen less frequently.
Otherwise, it's by far my favorite dev environment I've had in my 30+ year career! Well, except for maybe my first job using a Wang terminal, if only because I enjoyed telling coworkers I needed to get back to my Wang. Lots of Wang jokes.
> I can understand if you need some media creation applications sticking with Mac (although I'd switch to Win10), but as a fellow developer it has been awesome
I believe you also need it for ios/iphone development not sure about osx dev though.
Not OP but the trackpad on the Thinkpad X1/P1 is still not good compared to the MBP. It's small (much smaller than the 2015 MBP). Because it has a hinge, you have to either turn on tap-to-click (which has poor palm rejection) or further cut the area where you can click to the bottom half (and deal with variable click strain/travel).
I've heard that Dell makes better trackpads nowadays, but I haven't tried one to verify yet. Regardless, I believe it still has a hinge, so hardware wise I do think the force touch trackpad (and its driver) is still MBP's biggest moat.
There are four of us at work that use Linux--the other 30 or so all have MacBooks. There are no converts, either you started a Linux person, or you started a Mac person.
My little Linux enclave has some theories about the cognitive effect of all the polish that you find on Apple products, but we can't separate our biasses from good science, especially because there's nobody to ask that knows both worlds.
So I have a question for all of the converts out there: Does switching between MacOS and Linux have any effect on how you think?
I switched to apple ecosystem because I wanted the UX that just works reliably. MacOS is for me linux with ultrapolished DE. Bonus is that I can work on iOS apps and use Apple Photos which is way better for me than Google Photos. I used Arch Linux for many years before MacOS. I also switched to iPhone from Android. Wanted a phone that works in the same ecosystem (photos...) and is fast, reliable and does not change ux very much with new releases. On android I tinkered with the phone too much, various companies have different ux, and I started to dislike Google very much after they started randomly shutting down services as they like and one year after introducing them.
I switched from Linux to Mac OS as well. First someone paid me to do a low level Mac app, so I bought a macbook white and found out how Mac OS works.
Then one day I was working on my main Linux desktop and something was distracting me. After a while I realized that the "system tray" (or whatever KDE calls it) icons were all removed and readded one by one regularly, instead of just being updated in place. The on screen movement was significant enough to steal my attention from the IDE.
I looked up how to build a hackintosh desktop and sadly I've never looked back. I might even replace the hackintosh with a Mac Pro in the next 1-2 years, now that they actually have a Mac Pro again.
UX wise, Mac OS is the least annoying operating system available now. Same goes for iOS on phones. It's bad because there's no competition, but that's it.
However, the keyboard everyone is complaining about IS complete and utter shit if you use the laptop outside a clean room environment.
I've been using my last 3 Apple laptops on the same balcony, and only the 2018 mbpro has keyboard problems. The older ones, including the 10 year old mb white, work just fine(tm) still.
I had more problems with Ubuntu (especially after big updates) than Arch. For me Arch, after initial setup, was the closest to "just work" linux of all the distros I tried, and I tried them alot over the years. And when something breaks in Arch, I find it much easier to fix problems with Arch than other distros because they keep things as close to upstream as possible and have great wiki.
I switched from 2016 macbook pro to dell xps 13 running linux. I spent 2 weeks tinkering. Trackpad never worked half as good as MBP. The simple act of closing the display lid did not even put the computer to sleep reliably.
I went back and paid the Apple tax.
Edit: BTW, Windows was running OK on that machine. Linux was fucked. I guess Microsoft is doing great work on WSL2. It might be the solution for me eventually.
I've used this exact setup without problems since 2016 now. I had to upgrade Dell's EFI BIOS, upgrade kernels (b/c Skylake), and upgrade to Ubuntu 16.04 once it came out. I remember a very early trackpad driver having serious problems with keeping state, but that went away with a driver update within a week. Never got a problem with the lid; maybe check BIOS settings? It's true that the XPS's trackpad and Linux' power management isn't as nice as Apple's (because nobody's is).
I'm on an earlier model (9343 from 2015) and after the first ~6 months of "beta testing" it actually got quite good and reliable...
...until about a few months ago, when - I suspect due to a kernel upgrade to the 5.0 series - it started not suspending on closing the lid. Oh, and I can no longer run Powertop, because then it will not suspend at all.
This is so frustrating about using Linux - you get a random regression and then the only thing you can do is pray that someone will eventually fix it down the line.
I have been running Arch (Gnome/Wayland) on a Dell XPS13 9380 for more than 6 months now without any issue except the fingerprint reader not being recognized.
The Arch wiki page for the 9370 really helped, especially since initially the battery was draining on sleep, not after applying the recommendations.
I dock it on USB-C 3.1 dock. The display switches instantly.
The Gnome/Wayland fractional scaling is however not good, the image is blurry. I don't use it.
This might have seemed as a superficial witticism, but it's not meant as one (honestly!).
There's a fundamental difference in approach towards hardware and software that's cultivated slowly, gently, and steadily by Apple. The objective is to shell out money to the company and its ecosystem, and starts with vendor lock-in with proprietary tech and cheap but paid apps in a closed-off app store, to reach to the point of an annual budget for Apple expenditures that follows the latest iterations of their products, which are buffed up with New! Shiny! Features! that aren't much thought out, but are nominally innovative.
Now, if you go the Linux/BSD open source/free software path, you'll be hard pressed to find software to throw money at. Best you could do is donate to support your favourite projects, but that's optional rather than mandatory. After settling down with a nice system configuration, you'll similarly be hard pressed to find reasons to waste money on continued "upgrades", instead opting for something that works, and returning to it. People buying couples (or even stockpiles) of, say, x203's is a good example here. They're not buying the marketed "cutting edge", they're rather opting for something that supports their workflow, at a fraction of a price.
This demonstrates a fundamental difference of attitudes, on the one hand people subscribing to an open-ended channel of (fashionable?) updates in hardware and software, and on the other people maintaining and updating a workflow. Perhaps obviously, I'm viewing this from the slightly biased dev angle (and not necessarily webdev either).
Understandably, video and graphics people may come from different tech cultures and have different expectations, where the Apple way is more or less the only (apparent) way.
TL;DR, I see the Apple mentality as bombastic value inflation with more varnish than wood, while the FOSS camp as gradual value increase albeit with the occasional splinters.
Disclaimer: I do make daily use of my MBA 11" 2013, but I'd be hard-pressed to change it. Yet if I'm forced to, I'd probably not go for lustre, but for something equally functional. (Think of a "My other laptop runs OpenBSD" bumper sticker.) When I need to offload a build cycle that'd take too long on the MBA, I do so on a Fujitsu rather than a Mac Pro.
There you go. Downvote a guy to assure a better explanation.
Yes, absolutely. My sense of beauty goes from focusing on grace to focusing of freedom/story. Both are pretty in their own way, but by choosing to appreciate what they do best I become more aware of one type of beauty over another in all aspects near me.
The ability to modify literally anything you can interact with is amazing on linux.
However.... it's also very time consuming, so I basically never do that.
Linux out of the box without tweaking it will have a lot of behavior you may or may not agree with. I found it to be very difficult to adjust away from the cohesive interfaces found on the mac—you can use readline keybindings on all forms, which only very rarely conflict with application keybindings—and you have the same copy/paste keybindings everywhere you can copy/paste. The system keybindings have been consistent for about as long as I've been alive, I think. The built-in terminal is more than good enough for all my needs, and has excellent keybindings too! I can copy/paste/save/whatever with the same keybindings I use in all my other apps.
In other words, I find the interface to stay out of my way and I can work extremely productively with many windows and processes in flight. It may not be perfect, but dammit, it's about the best level of productivity I can manage, by a large margin.
In GNU/Linux, I'm constantly fighting the interface, so there's an implicit understanding of all sorts of behavior I find very difficult to adjust to. What are those lines under characters in the menu item? Why is my mouse frozen so I can't kill the application that's likely swapping memory? Why does every desktop environment have their own system settings and none of them have a decent gui for configuring trackpad behavior? Why are there two, maybe three different GUI frameworks, and several service layers, so you basically need to install the cores of both major desktop environments to use all the applications? I constantly ran into issues where, for instance, I could configure an app to work with the gnome keyring, but not the kde keyring. It's anarchy in the best and worst way. And don't even get me started on printers, graphics, and wifi drivers. All solvable—eventually. Unfortunately, I only had time for the worst experiences on the clock, and the last thing I wanted to do off the clock was fight the system further. So after two years on linux, after attempting to fight the transition to the touch strip, I switched back.
I did really, really love the paid (pay optional?) app system that was popping up, I found the apps high quality and I contributed to several I "bought", which was an experience that absolutely floored me, and there was some excellent curation involved there on behalf of the folks running the service. Still, the community is still very small.
Stuff like that makes me wonder who Canonical's target audience is and who they're testing with.
> Or if you want things to work like a Mac, go with elementary OS.
This is a joke, right? It's basically some high quality apps (I can't emphasize that enough) and a skin. The issue isn't the quality of those apps, it's that the desktop paradigm is fundamentally different and wedded to the PC. I can't understand anyone who claims to have switched and gotten up to productivity within a few years—maybe I've been using macs too long.
Also, this type of hostility has a very chilling effect. I have had good experiences with the open source community personally, but public forums are utterly toxic to people who express opinions about gnu/linux/gnome/kde.
I think this is the main issue. You want your PC to work exactly like your Mac and are not prepared to learn the way the new system works.
Case in point: a lot of people complain about trackpad issues but Linux/windows do not use mouse gestures. You should learn to use gnome hot-zones and/or keyboard shortcuts because experience have shown us it is more efficient.
Since the release of OSX 10.3, Linux has lagged when it comes to accessibility for vision impaired users (back then it didn't even have anything to offer).
Linux's accessibility didn't get worse due to a particular OSX release though, so the way you phrased it was quite confusing. I'm not sure you're right, either. Debian seems to have had TTS and Braille device support (including during installation) since before OSX 10.3 was released.
> There are no converts, either you started a Linux person, or you started a Mac person.
That's a clear over generalization. I started with Mac, used everything Mac for about 15 years (various Macbooks, Mabooks Pro, iMacs and one Mac Pro) and then changed to everything Linux about 5 years ago.
I am a scientific researcher, my main activity in the computer is programming, I didn't miss the Mac at all except for a little tool that I used for my personal life (GarageSale) and that I couldn't get anything similar (it's a tool to create eBay auctions in a much easier and nifty way).
Anyway, there is nothing about the Mac itself I miss.
I work on Linux full time at work and use a Mac at home, both primarily for creative work. The Linux experience has some strengths, but you feel required to spend a significant amount of time customising your environment to reduce workflow friction. The Mac is great out of the box, and in general gets out of your way. The basics are rock solid.
I have used both. I had a MacBook at work at a previous job and otherwise mostly Debian. Currently I use Void Linux at home and Debian at work.
I was impressed with the build quality of the Mac at the time (2012 model? 2013?) but as a Unix system it wasn't among the best. No built-in package manager and the popular option, Homebrew, was messy and temperamental. System updates were terrifying because you never knew what it did to software installed with Homebrew. System core utilities are from BSD or BSD like (forks from old versions?). The file system system hierarchy is a bit unconventional if you are used to *BSD or GNU/Linux. The file manager was clunky (though easily "fixed" with a modern Norton Commander clone). In the end I spent most days with a full screen terminal and a full screen browser. One thing I really liked was the touch pad. The motions make sense and it's pleasant to use even for long periods of time. Screen was also nice (retina).
It wasn't a great sense of loss when I turned that laptop back in, though. I bought a refurbished Thinkpad for probably a tenth of the price and was happy with that. I'd never buy a Mac myself. Maybe if I get into iOS development it would make sense, or really need to use Photoshop or some such software. Until then I see no reason to pay the premium, especially now that other manufacturers have high resolution screens. "It just works" is overstated because when it frequently does not in some slightly off-mainstream use case you have browse some Stack Exchange site or some Apple support forum to figure out how to fix it.
Yup every time I use my older personal laptop at home, I'm reminded by how much shittier the new keyboards are. They sound terrible and I never end up hitting the correct arrow key.
Just got the Macbook Air 2018 16GB/512GB from BestBuy for $1,150. Cheapest I've seen even by a eBay second hand standard. I think the price is good enough for me to overlook the keyboard reliability risk... typing is a bit loud though. I bought a Macbook Air 2019 and returned it before, typing on that keyboard was a bit quieter.
Overall, keyboard doesn't bother me that much after a couple of hours. I can type pretty fast in this thing. i5 duo core isn't that bad, either. I can multi-task quite well. So far I have zero regret.
I feel like the keyboard issue is the prime example of why companies shouldn't have monopolies on who runs their OS. Sure on the one hand, they control everything and when things work, they Just Work (TM). On the other hand, they control everything and will inevitably screw something up. Your option? Deal with it, or change laptops. Oh, and change OSes too, since that was your only option for macOS.
Yup, it baffles me how many people who earn their money writing code seem to either be content with crappy laptop keyboards or shy away from investing a few hours’ salary in a decent keyboard that they’ll be using for tens of thousands of hours.
The Cherry G80 with blue switches (I believe) I shortly used at a startup gig last year actually was at Model M level, sans the typing noise/headache. Saying this as someone who actually used Model M keyboards in 1991-3 on PS/2 50 and 80 PCs.
I used an Apple "ergo" keyboard in the early 90s. Had several of them, they all failed with dead keys and unintended multiple keystrokes within six months. The more things change . . .
The Microsoft Ergo Keyboard, the first one released in 1995 or so, was well nigh perfect (well, once you remapped capslock to something useful, which you could do in software, or in hardware with a little gumption and some conductive paint). Probably saved my career. Then the quality of Microsoft keyboards went to hell as they cost-reduced their way to mediocrity. The more things change . . .
I use a Kinesis Gaming Keyboard now, and I think it's one of the best ergo keyboards on the market. It's programmable to a reasonable degree, has decent key feel, and I've been pounding on a couple of them pretty hard since they were released 2+ years ago without experiencing any issues. I think Kinesis has a clue, but that doesn't mean they won't change . . .
The Keyboardio keyboard has an interesting design and great build quality, but I'm too damned old to retrain, and it requires significant effort to reach a decent typing rate. I'm not up to it. I'd be very interested in buying a more traditional split keyboard from the Keyboardio team if they ever decide to build one. There are probably 10 people at my smallish company who would buy them, too. Kaia and Jesse, if you're reading this, take my money :-)
The Ultimate Hacking Keyboard is just not quite there. The build quality is excellent and the team put an incredible amount of work into the thing, but the lack of an ESC key just kills me. "Hacking" keyboard . . . but no escape key. I just don't understand. Yes, you can remap keys, but you're going to lose something important to a shift sequence that your fingers are going to stumble on for weeks. (Yes control-[ is ESC but this is not the 1970s and I'm not typing on an ADM3A terminal any more).
One thing I'd love to see is an ergo keyboard that includes pressure and velocity information along with keystrokes. I'd like a warning from the system that I'm typing too hard, for one thing, and I'm sure the information would be useful for other purposes.
Me too. The laptop is an inch thick, and _I love it_.
We need a revival of bauhaus design - no distinction between form and function. If it falls short at its function, it fails as a form, and should not be accepted.
I am using an Apple wireless keyboard (~2014? model, before they changed to thin keys) and I love it. I've used a load of keyboards in my time including some very good mechanical ones, and it's my favourite.
Dunno. The keyboard on my T420 still works 9 years later. None of my desktop keyboards have broken in 5+ years of use, and they were incredibly cheap (10-20€). Keyboards are a solved problem. Apple just keeps inventing new ones.
Also, just to throw another opinion into this dumpster fire:
I had to get a new laptop, knew I was getting a 2019 MBP, and was terrified the keyboard experience would be horrendous due to the coverage I see on the topic here.
And it isn't at all. It feels different than my 2015 model, but... definitely not worse. I may even be just slightly better because it's noticeably quieter.
Just one perspective, but yeah. The keyboard rage on here should not be taken as anything approaching absolute truth.
I agree, the keyboard is fine, until it stops working properly. Apparently, the problems described in the article are not rare occurrences. That, and also the keys which start to fade out (see some other comments). I have both problems on my 2018 MBP.
I think the keyboard rage comes from the fact that they changed a perfectly fine keyboard with a bogus one, just to have a slightly slimmer laptop (along with many other gimmicks such as the touchbar, or the oversized trackpad).
Indeed. I switched to a 2017 MBP and thought the keyboard was honestly fine, until after a while the keys gradually started chattering and eventually just outright not working.
When it works, it’s fine. I’ve had a 2018 MBP for a year and apparently didn’t draw the short stick. The travel distance ceased to be a problem after the first week, and I don’t think about the keyboard day to day.
That said, even in my ideal, happy-path case, there’s one minor flaw I do occasionally run up against, which I rarely see mentioned: the keys are too close together. It’s easier – not greatly so, but perceptibly – to hit adjacent keys. There’s no question in my mind that going back to the old keyboard will be an improvement across the board, even for those who haven’t had any of the marquee issues.
Except not breaking does not a good keyboard make. It still is very bad, no travel, no resistance, feels like a kids' toy. Make something solid and durable for once, apple.
I liked my 2019 MBP keyboard too. Until one week I noticed it kept repeating e's and n's. And then I learnt its not fixable unless you are prepared to go without a machine for 3 to 14 days. And then I learnt from Rossman Youtube that your machine might never be the same again after Apple's "genius"'s get their hands on.
Honestly, I thought it was all a fuss about nothing. But it isn't. BTW my machine is 6 months old. It started malfunctioning 2 months ago.
Had the same with my work MBP. Started about 6 weeks into using it, went to the Apple Store and got told it would take at least 14 days. Asked them for an exchange device so I could keep working and they almost laughed at me.
I bought mine on an American Express credit card which, in the UK, has what's known as "Section 75" protection. This alone means I can return it for a full refund since it is a defective product within the warranty period with documented design flaws. If Apple refuse to issue the refund, then Amex will do it for them. Obviously it will need persistence and a bit of a fight - but the law is 100% on my side.
Same here. I just got a 2019 MBP to replace my 2014. I type without looking and I find the keyboard very pleasant (I love the soft click feel and sound). Now I can’t say for the durability but first impression is very good.
The vast majority of impressions I've seen are about how the keyboard mistypes or breaks. It's not necessarily about it feeling worse - it is worse in aspects that don't directly related to how it feels to type on it. The keyboard rage is entirely justified if such an expensive device has keyboard problems that are unsolvable. It's really not helpful to dismiss the issues and people's opinions just because you happen to think typing on the keyboard is fine, no idea what anybody is complaining about, everybody is exaggerating and out of their minds.
I don't think most of the comments are directed at the 2019 model. Most even specify an earlier (2018) model. These have known issues. So I think that is "approaching absolute truth".
Good point - but with Apple, you're never going to have any concrete information until the day a product is officially released. Rumors are as good as we can get, and 9to5mac is pretty reputable, as far as those sites go.
Great, will they be offering free trade-ins? These are $2000 computers that have a major broken component. Not to mention, the second a computer comes on sale that doesn't have this issue, the resale value of the current MacBooks will be disproportionately affected compared to previous revisions. So a nice double whammy: a miserable experience during its use, and an unusually small resale value afterwards.
This is a company that renders many of its perfectly working phones and tablets virtually worthless via centralized cloud account locking that is easily forgotten and left on. I doubt they care about resale value.
When you reset an iPhone or iPad it always prompts you for the iCloud password to remove the lock. eBay also gives you the same reminder. The only way you're selling iCloud locked devices is if you're usually too lazy to reset or it's a stolen device. (Though other situations happen - I recently sold some iPhones for my wife's family, which belonged to someone who died of Alzheimers)
You think the company that makes you buy an extra 'fuck you' dongle to plug in your brand new phone into your brand new computer will let you trade up?
Sorry if you already bought the lemon model. I'd sell before the new one drops to take less of a hit if I were in your shoes.
I get it's an easy target to make fun of, and it's probably over-priced, but the concept of a separate stand is not entirely unreasonable (especially as many "pros" already have stands they like). At least they're offering a VESA adapter, though it's stupid to charge $200 for it.
Meh. That’s an incredibly high end reference monitor targeted at a niche set of high end video producers that already overwhelmingly prefer to rack mount their reference monitors.
Most of the target market doesn’t need or want that stand.
I find their asymmetry to be ugly and visually distracting: there's no excuse for the "chin" on the top of the monitor - I'm surprised Apple OK'd the design at all - and just-as-surprised that they didn't equal-out the bottom bezel of the display in the new 2019 revision just to make it seem balanced.
Also, the fact it's a single-input monitor without HDMI input is a deal-killer for me: multiple-input monitors are fantastic when you have multiple machines on your desk and alternate between them based on the current job (e.g. laptop in docking station, Mac Mini for Safari + iOS testing, main desktop, dangling HDMI cable for connecting to tablets and phones).
I have an LG tv and have no problems, but not regarding that, Apple uses LG displays on their macbooks and ipads (not sure about the 5k imac). This is probably why you are being downvoted.
As a sometime mac diehard (iOS & Mac developer, ObjC enthusiast), I find it a little hard to imagine how anyone could continue paying through the nose for Apple's dreadful hardware at this point. A reasonable platform conservatism did encourage me to consider another mac when my 2013 MB Pro outlived its usefulness, but only briefly.
Shame. Last time I used it (early 2018) I still found OS X to be have the best overall balance of good to bad things (no current OS is exactly 'good'). But the hardware is a complete deal-breaker.
Fair enough - I'm a bit out of touch with current OS X. Windows has some pluses but lots of downsides too. Same for Linux. They're all an unhappy compromise from my perspective. I've reached a stage of frustration with the dreadful desktop OS scene that I now invest as little as possible in any of them. I keep my data portable, use x-platform apps as much as I can, and generally keep the OS, as far as I'm able, to be just a file store and app launcher.
And they replace it with a keyboard with the same design flaws. I have replaced mine several times now and am left without a computer for a week every time.
Don't. I've made the mistake of building a hackintosh out of 'Golden Build' list of seemingly issue-less components and it's a world of hurt. Every now and then something doesn't work (BT, Wi-Fi, GPU, random OS freezes) and there's no real way to fix it, the usual advice is to replace component and/or reinstall the OS. I've wasted so much time on it, that if I'd know it in advance, I wouldn't do it. You've been warned.
And it takes anywhere from <unreasonably long> to <forever> to get it replaced because they basically have to replace the entire laptop just to replace the keyboard.
Mine is less than 6 months old and already at least 3 keys are malfunctioning. The Apple rep reckoned I would be without my machine for at least 3 days - and that is unacceptable as I need it for my work. In the end I bought an external keyboard.
They don't need to offer free trade-in. When the new machine is available I will buy it. Then return this broken one for a full refund. And there are literally half a dozen laws in the UK that entitle me to do so.
I usually use my Macs until I feel an upgrade is worth it (I can sometimes get five years out one), and then upgrade and give the old one away to someone who could use it. The cost for me is really that I'm not going to want to keep my current MBP (bought at the end of 2017) for as long as I usually would, just because they keyboard sucks.
I absolutely agree, they should offer a significant discount to people trading them back in to get a replacement model.
I can't believe they aren't double-shot. Or just color the whole thing, like Nintendo did with its switch buttons. Lettering and all, so it never rubs off. That would be the kind of quality I'd expect to see for the price of an apple lap top computer.
My command Key had this after a couple of years on my MBP took it in to the apple store while I was getting my phone fixed, they just stuck in a new key. I believe they have a key board replacement program if your keys are sticking - something I'll probably avail myself of, I have a few keys that don't work sometimes.
Huh, left Cmd button on my MBP 2018 has the same issue. Also double t’s. Also sometimes not working left Shift unless you press it harder. Also partially not working Touch Bar (about an inch of it has turned black and doesn’t display anything).
I found the touch bar a hindrance on my 2017 MBP. Then I read a HN comment [1] recommending Better Touch Tool [2] with GoldenChaos config [3]. I've found it quite useful since.
Do these fix the kernel panic "BAD MAGIC" error that causes the machine to crash and restart? These are kernel panics caused by the BridgeOS, a mini-operating system that drives the TouchBar.
My problem isn't with the usability or usefulness of the TouchBar. My problem is that the mere presence of the TouchBar has created a point of failure that crashes the machine... when I'm not even using that feature!
What about if they have a touch bar but also have a hardware escape key? That's really the only thing about the touch bar Mac keyboard layout that I hate. (I don't actually mind the feel of the butterfly keys -- I'm typing on them now -- but I don't love them, either. Although if they kept this key feel, maybe just doubled the travel, and brought the reliability back in line with the older scissor switches, I'd be totally on board.)
I've gone back to remapping caps lock as a control key recently, so the two hacks conflict. :) (I know there are ways to remap the caps lock key to be both, depending on whether you tap it or hold it down with another key.)
Well, you're at least halfway there with the butterfly keys, since their left and right arrow keys are full-sized and only the up and down keys are half-height! Mac laptops previously have had half-height arrow keys literally for two decades, going back to 1998's PowerBook G3.
I'd love it if they simply re-issued the 2013 model. I have a 2013 MacBook Pro and it has been great. Every iteration since then has been worse (keyboards, batteries, touchbar, etc).
Logic Pro is the only thing that might force me to by an inferior current model Macbook if my 2013 model croaks. I'm about to start experimenting with Ardour to see if my Logic Pro dependency can be removed.
I used to be the guy saying that this wasn't such a big deal, not worth the fuss. Until it happened to me. I have issues with spaces (random spaces inserted here and there). It's not bad enough that I have to get my computer fixed urgently, but it is annoying. It's not what you expect from such a high-end device. I haven't taken the time to see what's Apple answer to these problems, but I do hope that this will be fixed free of charge without them keeping my computer for too long...
> I'm ditching Macs and will pick up a Microsoft Surface Book
I'm not to that point yet. I'm not an apple fanboy, and I'm not really happy about the direction Apple is taking. But I still prefer Mac OS to Linux or Windows, and I've never seen a non-apple laptop that I've found particularly attractive. And they usually have their own issues too.
I tried the most recent MacBook Pro keyboard over a weekend in September. Absolutely terrible experience, not to mention the Touch Bar. I hope my 2015 MBPro doesn't die on my before Apple fixes this.
I expect this to last me a decent handful of years; if Apple hasn't gotten their shit together by then, no matter how much I otherwise like their hardware, I'll have no choice but to pick something else and switch back to Linux.
The worst thing is, the 2015 MBP keyboard was nearly perfect. The vast majority of the time I don't even use an external keyboard even when I am working at a desk and am plugged into monitor.
It's one thing to fail at designing something because it is hard and you haven't figured it out yet. It's quite another to regress to incompetence on something you already perfected.
The 2015 MBP is great! I have a spare one stockpiled.
I wish they would keep it basically as-is, replace one of the (generally unused) thunderbolt ports with a USB-C port, add their secure enclave T2 security chip, and update the CPU/chipset. Maybe even add FaceID...
I think the late 2011 unibody is the best Macbook they ever made. Easily opened up, with nearly everything replaceable. Pleasant to work with. Their last lineup that had a 17 inch model available. Only downside: noisy fans. I replaced them, bit that didn't fix it. Give me one with quieter fans and maybe a slightly more up to date processor, and I'm happy.
I work daily with 2015 MBPs, and I agree the keyboards are good. But every day I also miss the keyboard of my burnt out 2011 MBP. In my 20 years of using macs, that one and the 2012 generation had the best combination of crisp resistance + travel.
I agree. I don't think I'll ever beat my 2015 MBP.
Seriously, the thing is a workhorse. I consistently run 4 screens while streaming Twitch/Youtube, running 1 or 2 emulators, 2 IDE's, and dozens of Chrome tabs. Thing only slows down on hot days when it can't cool off well enough.
I've been suffering with a 2018 MBP as well, and I'm done. The Touchbar and the arrow keys are killing me.
I'm giving them one more chance to fix their mistake with the 2019 MBP which should be announced in the next few weeks, otherwise I'm, going to a Vaio.
Coming from a Thinkpad (the standard for what makes a great keyboard), PowerBook Titanium (keyboard was bad, but nothing like the 2016/17 MacBook Pro), PowerBook 12 / 17 (my favorite), and the first MacBook Pro (still pretty great) everything starting with the unibody has been downhill. Ever since, the keyboard and I believe battery even have not been user replaceable. There was a time one could walk into an Apple Store and actually purchase the battery in a box off the shelf, take it to the counter and buy it like any other product.
I have a 2017 and 2018 15 inch MacBook Pro. The 2017 is almost unusable. The 2018 is much better relatively. I also had a 2015 13 inch. Can't say the keyboard was great on that either.
I've been tempted to try retrofit a 12 inch PowerBook with more modern parts like the devoted Thinkpad users have done.
The pre-chiclet keyboards were okay for their era but the <=2015 chiclet design is just so much more comfortable because of the lack of sharp edges and does a much better job at keeping dust out than the old open design.
I did well with keyboards on the old powerbook g4, and the 1st gen intel macbook pros. Once they went chiclet, I developed wrist fatigue, finger pain, and other issues. They are an ergonomic nightmare scenario for me, and are basically unusable undocked for any significant length of time. I imagine the new models will be even worse.
I've tried it, but (for me) it's not enough to feel, and it doesn't help with comfort (which is better if the keypress force acts on the entire finger)
Even the little things are inferior on the modern MBP compared to 2015. I use both and have noticed that when you plug headphones into a 2015 the switch over from (muted) speakers to mid volume headphones is instant.
On the USB-C version there is a 1.5 to 2 second lag where if you turn the volume up you'll actually be turning the volume up on the speakers because it takes that long to switch audio sources.
The worst part is that I can tell this keyboard is actually having a detrimental effect on my typing abilities. Since being on these keyboards for years now, I've noticed that my typing speed has slowed, as I spend a significant amount of cognitive energy preparing to fix mistakes. The faster you type, the more annoying it is to go farther back to fix something. I'm not sure how to quantify the focus it steals from tasks or the anxiety it gives me, but I think they are also real. Not to mention it is infuriating to see some strange spelling error that is completely the keyboard's fault in a message or email you sent, making you look like an idiot.
The thread from @getify ( https://twitter.com/getify/status/1165300052463480832 ) on having to wait 3 days for a repair, even though it is done in-store is truly infuriating. He is absolutely right that it makes no sense to have to leave a computer sitting around doing nothing, and you should just be able to be told to bring it back when your computer would be 24 hours away from being repaired. The computer isn't being shipped anywhere, but Apple must still severely hamper your productivity on a product you spent thousands of dollars on.
Their constant reference to a "small minority of users experiencing this" in light of these huge delays at the store for a super-quick and simple fix has become insulting. I won't register anywhere as someone "experiencing this issue" since I don't have 3 days to not use my computer for a fix that will probably break again in months.
I feel you. A long time ago I had a windows laptop keyboard that was glitching out. After a few weeks, I literally threw it out the window in frustration! I'm more mature now, I think...
Curious if you’ve tested this. I thought the keyboard was slowing down my speed, so I did a lot of wpm testing and was surprised that I was slightly faster. I still feel slower after the tests and have verified it a couple of times. I’m not sure how to account for this phenomenon other than possibly the lower travel feeling like less intense effort.
I did a test recently -- today! -- myself on this, and found that the butterfly keyboard does slow me down a bit compared to my usual rate, which I wouldn't have actually predicted; I'm slightly slower on it in terms of raw keystrokes and also slightly less accurate. But it's not an incredible difference, and there are other keyboards I've used (like the much-hyped Brydge keyboard for the iPad Pro) which had more deleterious effects.
I feel that I am more likely to brush a neighboring key and that key is more likely to trigger on the butterfly keyboard of my 2017 work machine than on my 2014 home machine. I end up doing a lot more corrections on the butterfly keyboard.
It seems like the tighter spacing and lower travel result in more unintentional key presses.
Yes, I think the keyboard needs the typist to adapt to it more than is appropriate for a mass market keyboard. I had the 2014 also and had to unlearn how I rested my hands on it and touched it. Not everyone will equally succeed at that, as evidenced by my coworkers who are still hitting the 2017-2019 keys way too hard.
He's lucky he has an Apple Store to go to. I had to turn in my 2017 MBP to a "Authorized Service Provider" who in turn had to send it in to Apple. I was without my machine for 10 days (luckily I still had my old, working 2012 MBPr I could just imagine my machine onto and keep working)
Does Apple not offer a loaner laptop during that period? If not, I'm quite unimpressed. These laptops are expected to be purchased by working professionals... what does Apple imagine is the customer workflow when an issue arises? Pause your work while the laptop is in repair?
They do not. I've heard their recommended advice if this is a problem is to fork out and purchase yet another laptop at your own cost, and return it within the return window.
So any bump on the aluminum that the store clerk doesn't approve of would cost you around $800? (since I assume the only way out would be selling it second-hand with a huge discount)
My 2015 MBP is affected by the battery recall and they want 2-3 weeks to send it off to a repair centre to have the battery replaced. No chance to have it done in-store owing to safety concerns (which I'm not sure I entirely buy given that it's an overheating issue, but it's hard to tell without the full details). And no budging on the timeframe or possibility of a loaner. One of the more frustrating customer service experiences.
Not that I'd like to be in charge of organising a recall of 500,000 laptops.
> My 2015 MBP is affected by the battery recall and they want 2-3 weeks to send it off
If you really have to understand the pain, the laptops are banned in Indian flights (domestic and international)[1]. Imagine a company issued laptop not being usable at an important customer exhibition and a lag of 2-3 weeks :-(
And only a few years ago, before the thinnness wars, this would have been a complete non-issue: One would just fly without the battery attached, as those were easily removable.
They just said '2-3 weeks' to give themselves some cover at first I think. On the day of its announcement they said 2-3 weeks. When I actually registered to send mine in a week or two later, it said 5 days. And it took maybe 5 days (I wasn't really paying that much attention, I don't use my MBP all that often) from when fedex picked it up to when they dropped it off with the battery replaced. It was actually quite a pleasant experience all things considered. Only gripe I really had about it was that the support person I chatted with when registering my system for the repair requested I use the system to do multiple things (add a separate administrative user for them to use if necessary, log out of iCloud, deactivate system in iTunes, etc). When you tell me not to use a system at all because it is in danger of bursting into flames at any moment, I'm not a big fan of then being told to use it to prep for sending it in...
I contrast this with the experience my dad has while traveling in NYC with his pro laptop in about 2011. The Apple Store needed 3 days to repair, and he was leaving the city before then. They simply recommended a 3rd party repairer who could do it within the day, which is what happened, and consequently giving my dad what he needed, boosting the Apple eco system, and providing better feelings towards Apple.
In the past 5 or so years, however, Apple has consistently been killing their 3rd party repair eco system, as well documented by Louis Rossmann. The idea that they may recommend a 3rd party repair source seems unimaginable, but further, most 3rd party repair basically involves sending the package to Apple repair anyways, as they’re not allowed to make changes on their own for anything but a small subset of issues.
Apple's support website still lists all authorized third party repair outlets, of which there are many in most cities.
I've been recommended them before, it's not unimaginable, and no, they generally don't send it to Apple (source: a good friend who works at London Drugs, which has a fairly good Apple-authorized computer shop inside of its various locations in Canada). If the laptop itself isn't serviceable (e.g. rare things like diagnosed catastrophic mainboard failure) they will just replace it from repair stock if it's under warranty. The top case / keyboard IS serviceable by most third party outlets to my understanding.
> New Independent Repair Provider Program Expands Genuine Parts Access to More Repair Businesses
> Cupertino, California — Apple today announced a new repair program, offering customers additional options for the most common out-of-warranty iPhone repairs. Apple will provide more independent repair businesses — large or small — with the same genuine parts, tools, training, repair manuals and diagnostics as its Apple Authorized Service Providers (AASPs). The program is launching in the US with plans to expand to other countries.
> “To better meet our customers’ needs, we’re making it easier for independent providers across the US to tap into the same resources as our Apple Authorized Service Provider network,” said Jeff Williams, Apple’s chief operating officer. “When a repair is needed, a customer should have confidence the repair is done right. We believe the safest and most reliable repair is one handled by a trained technician using genuine parts that have been properly engineered and rigorously tested.”
For "most common out-of-warranty iPhone repairs" I'd bet they're talking about batteries and screens. Especially alongside the recent "battery health" change where it only gives stats for Apple's batteries.
> having to wait 3 days for a repair, even though it is done in-store is truly infuriating
Oh - but it gets worse. I had my keyboard replaced a year ago, and it took over a week. In Norway they don't stock US International keyboards, which I can accept, but they can't (or won't, hard to tell) order a replacement unit before taking it into service. So it has to stay with them while they wait a 3-5 days just to get the spare parts. Great!
I was about to walk out of the store when they told me they needed my password to run "keyboard diagnostics" and that they were unsure wether or not KEYS FALLING OFF was covered by warranty.
I worked in computer/ phone repair - given the context keys falling off should definitely be under warranty. However lacking that context (let's assume there aren't widespread keyboard issues for that model) keys falling off could be the result of "rough handling" - we can't tell if a frustrated user was pounding at their keys or not, etc
But yeah given the known widespread keyboard issues for the Macbooks...
"rough handling" hehe. Wouldn't surprise me if Apple went and said this right out: stop typing that hard on our delicate little keys, be gentle, remember when you were holding our iDevice incorrectly? and we told you so.
Don't get me wrong, it would just be Apple throwing excuses here.
In general you never know with people :P. We also bought tablets/phones. Guy came in with his kids, kid tries to sell us a kindle fire that's in great condition that he "found in the woods" - right the woods? Do you mean somebodies backpack?
A real coder. Heh guys we have a real coder here. He gets paid and everything!
Not a factor. I also know people that don't have a problem with the MBP keyboard, I also know many colleagues who are driven to distraction daily (myself included).
My desk is messier than you would believe. I’m not proud. As in, only reason I’m cleaning the house today is because they’re gonna start showing it tomorrow.
I cannot see any problem with my keyboard. Yet, everyone condescends like I’m stupid.
The man probably doesn't even own a macbook other than to look at it sitting pretty on a shelf. Steve would have thrown a mbp out of a window if it doubled a key on him. Wouldn't be surprised if Ive is an ipad + pencil only loonie. Certainly would explain a lot.
I sometimes wonder if bringing Scott Forestall back in would fix things, even temporarily. He wasn’t necessarily pleasant but then again, neither was Steve.
I have a 2019 MBP and love everything except the keyboard. It's literally the only thing that holds it back from being the best laptop on the market in my opinion. Whatever sauce Apple puts into optimization and stability seriously pays off, because even with the garbage keyboard I still dropped $1300 for it.
I put an atreus keyboard on top of my laptop keyboard a lot of the time. You can even set up your MacBook to turn off the internal keyboard automatically when certain devices are plugged in with Karabiner
Until it's fixed. The beatings will continue until morale improves. My hope is apple engineers cringe at every one of these threads (or share in the solidarity)
Unpopular opinion: I want a touch keyboard with incredible haptic feedback. Long-throw keys trigger my particular RSI symptoms the worst. If I could move my fingers even less and apply even less force than I need to on the butterfly keyboard, I would be ecstatic.
You would benefit more from actual feedback that lets you know when you've actuated the press before bottoming out (which causes you to apply excessive force). It's not usually the travel distance that hurts you.
Thanks for the suggestion. I've been using Cherry MX Brown with red O-rings at home and it's definitely less painful than some other mechanical keyboards I have, but it's not quite there yet. I think perhaps the positioning of my wrists is too low, I am going to try a wrist pad to increase their height and report back. Any other suggestions?
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[ 2.5 ms ] story [ 351 ms ] threadIf this is the case, do yourself a favor and go and buy two ergonomic screens, keyboards and mice - one for each location.
It'll save you becoming a hunched over laptop gremlin.
I said two monitors but what I mean is one for each location - many people I know seem to prefer two but I think it's an antipattern (move your head, instead of alt+tab or similar)
Plus it has a numpad!
My solution has been to place an Apple bluetooth keyboard -on top- of my 15" MBP keyboard and that seems to work pretty well, but wow, it shouldn't have come to this...
I would like to think that maybe if some person at Apple runs a report for returns and see that "keyboard" accounts for a huge majority of returns, they may actually act with some semblance of haste.
While it had been a common complaint before, Casey Johnson really blew the story up in 2017 https://theoutline.com/post/2402/the-new-macbook-keyboard-is...
WSJ: "Appl Still Hasn’t Fixd Its MacBook Kyboad Problm" https://www.wsj.com/graphics/apple-still-hasnt-fixed-its-mac...
Abso-fucking-lute bliss! I think my productivity has gone up literally 80%
https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Anews.ycombinator.com+...
Surprised that anyone has missed this, as it has been front-paged on HN dozens if not hundreds of time.
https://support.apple.com/en-ca/keyboard-service-program-for...
Nerd entitlement rage is monotonous. The latest models 4th gen keyboards are pretty much fine.
- they'll only replace the keyboard for up to 4 years after the purchase date
- they'll replace it with the same faulty keyboard, so there's a good chance it'll have the same fault again, only once it's put of warranty
We know they've gone through several revisions that have purportedly reduced the incidents of problems, and they'll likely go through more improvements. When you get your keyboard replaced they will use the better variant.
I did that with my 2008 unibody Macbook Pro (yes, Macbook keyboards also sometimes broke pre-2016), which also suffered from EM209 [1] (second time, beyond Apple's free-fix period). I used heavy-duty rubber bands to both hold the screen together along the non-visible borders, and affix the wireless keyboard over the computer's. Certainly something to never ever show anyone else, but completely functional with the exception of the inability to close up the computer. Only after failing to start one day did I replace it with the 2012 non-Retina I am typing on; come to think of it, it's now exactly as old as the 2008 when it completely died, albeit in full working order. (It did need a keyboard repair. I am hard on keyboards.)
[1] https://randyzwitch.com/broken-macbook-pro-hinge-fixed-free/
Maybe I'll feel differently once I finally manage to work a crumb underneath one of them.
They're apparently ditching the butterfly keyboard in the next redesign. Bittersweet as someone who loves the keyfeel, but I guess it's for the best so here's hoping.
I would be much happier without the touch bar, though.
Pretty much infinite options for gestures is amazing.
To be honest, I think I like Pop! better than OSX. I hadn't used linux distros before because I'm not trying to spend my time fiddling around with the OS, I want things to just work and get out of my way. Pop! does. It's got that miryokuteki hinshitsu. And the ability to use exactly the same packages as our ubuntu webservers has already helped me debug a buildpack issue.
I'll certainly consider supporting System76 when I'm next looking for a brand-new computer.
Battery life was pretty decent after autotuning power settings through powertop, too. Better than I'm getting on my current work-issued MacBook, at least.
Only real annoyance for me was the wifi, which would vanish off the face of the earth after resuming from suspend. But I was able to replace it with a $15 Intel, a tiny screwdriver, and some patience.
Pretty much anything else I ever used was more pleasant than that.
The chasis did have abrasive finish too. I'm quite sensitive to abrasive surfaces, they give me chills.
Anyway, maybe I'm misremembering and it was just the chasis. Nevertheless it was a very unpleasant computer.
Same here, MBP keyboards are unbearable. Trying to develop on OSX has become a hassle. Gotta jump through hoops to get gdb to work. Windows with WSL on a Surface Book feels extremely tempting as of late.
I could grab a copy of Windows 10 LTSC and not have to get bothered by untimely updates, Cortana, other bloatware and even telemetry.
I've been using Windows for the past couple of weeks and, granted maybe I haven't really given it a chance, using it after using Macs for 10+ years is not great.
Maybe developing on macOS has become a hassle (I don't see that, but sure), but doing everything on Windows is a hassle. Taking a screenshot. Opening the right file. Displaying UI at a reasonable scale. Think what you want of macOS 'recently', but Windows is just full of bets and decisions that show they're not really concerned about the user experience.
It's amazing how bad Windows still is at this. In my experience, connecting monitors of different densities results in crazy things breaking, like the "maximize window" feature.
Only a few years ago Mac multi-monitor support was horrific. You couldn't straddle two screens with a window. And heaven help you if you were dealing with full screen, your second monitor was effectively disabled.
The only bad Windows density thing I run into is when I occasionally remote desktop into Windows Server 2012, which doesn't know about HiDPI or resolution changes, so if it starts on the wrong screen everything is hilariously tiny. That's fixed in more recent Windows Server versions.
Former is PrtScn key on my keyboard. Microsoft ships Snipping Tools and lately Snip n Sketch for screenshots - never had any issues with either.
Latter - not sure what you mean - opening the right file as in setting default program to open a file? That's easy enough and it's the best experience on Windows.
I /remembered "Snipping Tool", so I searched for "Snip" and launched that, and it shows a menu that says like "Snipping Tool is deprecated, use Snip n Sketch" so you click that and a new app opens (but old one stays open as well) and you take your screenshot and then its open in a window that you have to go and save.
I know I'm biased because its what I'm used to for 10 years, but on Mac I just have the (insane) cmd + shift + 4 shortcut engrained that'll snip a part of my screen and save to my Desktop. It's just so much quicker than Windows.
re opening file: I miss Quicklook to make sure I have the right file selected. Also miss being able to drag a file into an open dialogue box to select it to open.
Copies it into the buffer, silently. No notification, nothing. Great UX.
In Ubuntu it's even better, it actually saves it as an image file (and does the annoying shutter effect). But the repeat key is not turned off... so if by any chance you hold it down by mistake, thinking it was the right ctrl, oh boy, you get a shitstorm of shutter effects and dozens of screenshots in the pictures folder. Very annoying. I don't know which I hate more, Ubuntu or Windows.
Do you expect Ctrl+C to not be silent either? Because that's what PrintScreen and all the other clipboard operations were designed as.
Unfortunately it's one of those things that is incredibly useful but isn't mentioned anywhere.
But the touchbar lets you touch a single button, off-screen, and then clearly choose between these options: https://support.apple.com/en-au/HT201361
anyway, I will say that WSL is a lot better than what we had, but it's no where near as great as terminal working on the Mac. Maybe WSL 2.0 will be better. But I do miss my Mac tooling.
Thanks, I didn't know about this! I'll give it a go!
I've been using Lightshot to try and make screenshot taking a bit more bearable, but its still no cmd-shift-4 drag region and have a screenshot on my desktop.
You can find all keyboard shortcuts here: https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/12445/windows-keybo...
You also have the terminal, so you're free to `cd`, `find`, `locate`, etc...
I always used to find Windows File Explorer to be the one that was less feature-rich, but I haven't used it in... we'll just say a shamefully long time. But as someone who got used to Macs an equally long time ago, I've wondered if it's because the Mac seemed to make drag-and-drop such a central way of manipulating files and Windows emphasized "select object - select operation" as its central metaphor. If you're used to one way, moving to other system feels weird and clunky.
To me Windows Explorer feels like it hasn't been updated with modern features since XP, aside from adding the ribbon
At least in the Finder on the Mac you can turn your preferred behavior on (it's in preferences/advanced). On Windows AFAIK there is no setting for it.
Per directory. There’s still no way to set the desired view and sorting for the entire system.
And DMGs will open with no toolbar and sidebar.
AFAIK there is no way to get Windows to not sort folders on top.
Right click and hold down the option key, I believe.
You can even drag a folder from a Finder window to a save prompt or web browser upload prompt and it’ll relocate you to that directory in the prompt.
The rich drag and drop functionality is one of my favorite features of macOS.
Linux desktop experience and all its software suite are rudimentary compared to MacOS with these additions. I'm coming from there and before that Windows, and MacOS is definitivelly the OS which offer the best desktop experience.
I am currently forced to use windows and it’s near impossible to get anything done with it without feeling frustrated. It simply doesn’t follow my speed and line of thought on anything.
I am quite shocked after using Mac for 7 years how little progress or even regression windows 10 went through. Without making this into a windows bashing thread only the explorer related things I can think of:
- unzip hidden behind right click or freaking menu button. And a dialog with checkbox to “show files after extraction”. Mac: double click. New folder. Done
- rename through right click or f2. Laptop means fn+f2. Mac: press enter, type, done
- quicklook on Mac is the single greatest feature ever. Mainly because it works in file dialogs. Need to upload a file but don’t know which one? Just quicklook. Windows afaik has no equivalent
- somewhat related, maximum length of file paths. There is no excuse for that in 2019. If unzipping fails because of this the software is just plain bad
And this is just explorer which I barely use. Shocking
> unzip hidden behind right click or freaking menu button
By default double click or Enter will cause Explorer to peak into .zip files, which is more natural to me as I might not want to unzip the whole file to see the contents.
> rename through right click or f2
The fact that in Finder the Enter button does not actually enter a directory or run/open a file but let me rename it was the biggest surprise. I personally rename filesystem objects rarely, while I 'execute' them all the time, it does not make sense!
> quicklook on Mac is the single greatest feature ever. Mainly because it works in file dialogs. (...) Windows afaik has no equivalent
Fully agree - it is a very useful feature. Explorer also has it under 'Preview pane' name, but it's disabled by default. I think that Mac version is better, because if I remember correctly it does preview PDF files, while Explorer does not. Other typical files work fine.
> somewhat related, maximum length of file paths.
Fully agree.
You are right, I hadn’t thought of that. But there is an easy solution that imho in a way is better anyways:
CMD arrow allows you to navigate through file structure including drill down, I.e. open folder.
CMD o opens/runs any file selected (also opens folders so it’s a not-so-elegant replacement for open on enter)
This to me makes more sense though now that I think about it because it differentiates between running (potentially unsafe/slow) and quick keyboard navigation through folders. I admit the CMD arrow functionality is a bit hidden
Renaming with anything other than Enter makes sense because Enter opens the file.
The file path thing is bizarre. Windows 10 supports a path length of 32767 characters. But last I checked you had to change a registry setting before it was the default. And getting W10 to respect a long file path in Python programmatically was a huge pain.
Does it? Enter is “text confirmation, make new line”. With single line inputs it’s expected to work like a submit for e.g. a search. Submitting a file name change happens with enter on windows as well. Now if you rename with f2, then submit with enter and accidentally press enter a single time you suddenly have executed or opened something you only wanted to rename. Enter, the most prominent big button with a single function after space, suddenly becomes a completely orthogonal context sensitive option. That’s weird
And don’t get me started on the use of enter in Microsoft teams based on context of your message...
If you are in a list or ‘’’ code formatted block the first enter will break out and allow you to write plain text below in the same message, the second enter will send the message
Ehm. If you're in the middle of writing text, yes. Which you aren't if you're going through a directory with the explorer. "Enter" also activates buttons. Enter is always context-sensitive. It changes depending on the application and context. I don't see what's wrong with this.
I told myself I have to eventually migrate... still hasn't happened. There's just no reason to dive into horrible Pythoning, Dockering, NodeJSing (do I have to bring up Node-Gyp?)
For development Windows has a long way to go, even with WSL.
I have Windows installed on a Bootcamp partition on my Macbook Pro. Aside from the hassle and quirks of a different operating systems (coming from MacOS I find Windows extremely lacking in UX), I find perplexing the way Windows handles color profiles. Same computer, same screen, but everything is super saturated in Windows. In some websites with a lot of color in the background it can be jarring.
I eventually came across trackpad++, which at least renders it usable, but still unpleasant - I travel with a USB mouse these days (sigh, which obviously means a USB dongle for the MBP...).
an interesting product would be a keyboard sleeve. it doubles as a carry sleeve when the macbook is closed.
I just wish it ran Linux better - I find Windows unusable.
Either way, except for some Windows annoyances I really don't miss my MacBooks.
I had a Surface Pro 4 before this and the keyboard on that was also amazing despite a much smaller size, and the keys didn't degrade at all.
The real showstopper is that the keyboard is an almost certain failure point and fixing it means a multi-week wait. Losing my primary machine for such a long time would be a catastrophe. With Lenovo and Dell, I can easily add a 5 year next-business-day on-site service warranty—for the same price as AppleCare+. But AppleCare has no business-class warranty service options, just shitty mail-in service.
I bought a ThinkPad P1 recently. There was an issue with the touchpad I noticed as soon as I unboxed it. I called Lenovo Premier support, which has no wait time and no phone menu: calls are answered by a highly autonomous support agent (I believe in Florida) who can do whatever is needed to fix the problem. By noon the next day, technician was onsite and replaced the entire top half of the unit (equivalent to the MacBook keyboard repair).
1: https://cmder.net/
Having to throw out a fully functional device once the battery goes weak should be a practice that gets banned at least for the sake of the environment.
https://github.com/felixse/FluentTerminal is the closest I've found to the feel of the Mac one.
I had a few worries going into it. Would it be able to sit on my lap and other laptopy places, was Windows going to be alright, what about development. Stuff like that. It can function as a laptop, in fact it’s probably the best machine I’ve ever had on my legs because the hot part doesn’t touch you. It can’t sit on your chest while you lie down, however, so it’s certainly not a full laptop replacement if you need those positions. Windows with WSL has been amazing though. The only thing I’ve missed from OS/X was iMessage integration, and that was already annoying because more and more of my connections have been switching to android. It’s probably the first device I’ve been genuinely excited about since I got my first smartphone, and ironically it feels like something Apple should’ve made. And not just the design, the ability to isolate your dev environment with suse enterprise is just so much better than containers on os/x. Probably not better than dual-booting if you need more speed, but I don’t.
So much better IMO, just the keyboard alone was worth the switch. I was a little worried I would miss the display but I really don't mind the smaller screen.
Apple should be very worried. Once they loose the developers, users won't be long to follow.
Developers are generally the first to notice such things.
Unfortunately my current gig is all MBP and I feel completely handicapped, even after many months - to the point I have resorted to a "proper" mechanical keyboard.
As a touch typist and massive terminal keybindings user, I won't compromise on the keyboard. Apple needs to wake up and realise which slice of their market they are alienating. I'd say it's the most important one—the developers and creators. There's a sense that at Apple HQ right now, the "Pro" in "MacBook Pro" no longer means "professional" but rather "prosumer." That is wrong, so a major course correction is in order before creative types start fleeing the brand in earnest (judging by this thread and others, they may have already).
Sadly, the Retina monitor segment is a complete failure. Several 5K screens came out in 2015, along with the 27" Retina iMac, ... and then the market died off. The UltraFine 5K is finally available again, but it's being sold at 2015 prices (1400€ here). At that point you might as well get an iMac with eight cores, a dedicated GPU, and a semi-replaceable hard drive instead of the Mini.
In an ideal world, we'd have 8K ultrawide Retina displays by now. Sigh...
But, for anything that needs good GPU performance, they still hold the upper hand in hardware-software working in tandem, it's hard to get the same performance out of anything else.
My company laptop is just used for Skype meetings. The real work happens on my ThinkPad.
Although now that enough people have copied my approach it has now been grudgingly approved by IT.
The only irritation about the experience is when you switch windows and touch the touchpad, it forces a quick scroll down the page. It used to be maddening, but I found one "fix" that made it happen less frequently.
Otherwise, it's by far my favorite dev environment I've had in my 30+ year career! Well, except for maybe my first job using a Wang terminal, if only because I enjoyed telling coworkers I needed to get back to my Wang. Lots of Wang jokes.
I believe you also need it for ios/iphone development not sure about osx dev though.
That's literally my biggest hold up. I haven't seen anything that holds a candle to Mac's touchpads yet.
I've heard that Dell makes better trackpads nowadays, but I haven't tried one to verify yet. Regardless, I believe it still has a hinge, so hardware wise I do think the force touch trackpad (and its driver) is still MBP's biggest moat.
My little Linux enclave has some theories about the cognitive effect of all the polish that you find on Apple products, but we can't separate our biasses from good science, especially because there's nobody to ask that knows both worlds.
So I have a question for all of the converts out there: Does switching between MacOS and Linux have any effect on how you think?
Then one day I was working on my main Linux desktop and something was distracting me. After a while I realized that the "system tray" (or whatever KDE calls it) icons were all removed and readded one by one regularly, instead of just being updated in place. The on screen movement was significant enough to steal my attention from the IDE.
I looked up how to build a hackintosh desktop and sadly I've never looked back. I might even replace the hackintosh with a Mac Pro in the next 1-2 years, now that they actually have a Mac Pro again.
UX wise, Mac OS is the least annoying operating system available now. Same goes for iOS on phones. It's bad because there's no competition, but that's it.
I've been using my last 3 Apple laptops on the same balcony, and only the 2018 mbpro has keyboard problems. The older ones, including the 10 year old mb white, work just fine(tm) still.
Most professional users use Ubuntu since it's fairly polished and "just works".
I switched from 2016 macbook pro to dell xps 13 running linux. I spent 2 weeks tinkering. Trackpad never worked half as good as MBP. The simple act of closing the display lid did not even put the computer to sleep reliably.
I went back and paid the Apple tax.
Edit: BTW, Windows was running OK on that machine. Linux was fucked. I guess Microsoft is doing great work on WSL2. It might be the solution for me eventually.
This is so frustrating about using Linux - you get a random regression and then the only thing you can do is pray that someone will eventually fix it down the line.
The Arch wiki page for the 9370 really helped, especially since initially the battery was draining on sleep, not after applying the recommendations.
I dock it on USB-C 3.1 dock. The display switches instantly. The Gnome/Wayland fractional scaling is however not good, the image is blurry. I don't use it.
There's a fundamental difference in approach towards hardware and software that's cultivated slowly, gently, and steadily by Apple. The objective is to shell out money to the company and its ecosystem, and starts with vendor lock-in with proprietary tech and cheap but paid apps in a closed-off app store, to reach to the point of an annual budget for Apple expenditures that follows the latest iterations of their products, which are buffed up with New! Shiny! Features! that aren't much thought out, but are nominally innovative.
Now, if you go the Linux/BSD open source/free software path, you'll be hard pressed to find software to throw money at. Best you could do is donate to support your favourite projects, but that's optional rather than mandatory. After settling down with a nice system configuration, you'll similarly be hard pressed to find reasons to waste money on continued "upgrades", instead opting for something that works, and returning to it. People buying couples (or even stockpiles) of, say, x203's is a good example here. They're not buying the marketed "cutting edge", they're rather opting for something that supports their workflow, at a fraction of a price.
This demonstrates a fundamental difference of attitudes, on the one hand people subscribing to an open-ended channel of (fashionable?) updates in hardware and software, and on the other people maintaining and updating a workflow. Perhaps obviously, I'm viewing this from the slightly biased dev angle (and not necessarily webdev either).
Understandably, video and graphics people may come from different tech cultures and have different expectations, where the Apple way is more or less the only (apparent) way.
TL;DR, I see the Apple mentality as bombastic value inflation with more varnish than wood, while the FOSS camp as gradual value increase albeit with the occasional splinters.
Disclaimer: I do make daily use of my MBA 11" 2013, but I'd be hard-pressed to change it. Yet if I'm forced to, I'd probably not go for lustre, but for something equally functional. (Think of a "My other laptop runs OpenBSD" bumper sticker.) When I need to offload a build cycle that'd take too long on the MBA, I do so on a Fujitsu rather than a Mac Pro.
There you go. Downvote a guy to assure a better explanation.
However.... it's also very time consuming, so I basically never do that.
Linux out of the box without tweaking it will have a lot of behavior you may or may not agree with. I found it to be very difficult to adjust away from the cohesive interfaces found on the mac—you can use readline keybindings on all forms, which only very rarely conflict with application keybindings—and you have the same copy/paste keybindings everywhere you can copy/paste. The system keybindings have been consistent for about as long as I've been alive, I think. The built-in terminal is more than good enough for all my needs, and has excellent keybindings too! I can copy/paste/save/whatever with the same keybindings I use in all my other apps.
In other words, I find the interface to stay out of my way and I can work extremely productively with many windows and processes in flight. It may not be perfect, but dammit, it's about the best level of productivity I can manage, by a large margin.
In GNU/Linux, I'm constantly fighting the interface, so there's an implicit understanding of all sorts of behavior I find very difficult to adjust to. What are those lines under characters in the menu item? Why is my mouse frozen so I can't kill the application that's likely swapping memory? Why does every desktop environment have their own system settings and none of them have a decent gui for configuring trackpad behavior? Why are there two, maybe three different GUI frameworks, and several service layers, so you basically need to install the cores of both major desktop environments to use all the applications? I constantly ran into issues where, for instance, I could configure an app to work with the gnome keyring, but not the kde keyring. It's anarchy in the best and worst way. And don't even get me started on printers, graphics, and wifi drivers. All solvable—eventually. Unfortunately, I only had time for the worst experiences on the clock, and the last thing I wanted to do off the clock was fight the system further. So after two years on linux, after attempting to fight the transition to the touch strip, I switched back.
I did really, really love the paid (pay optional?) app system that was popping up, I found the apps high quality and I contributed to several I "bought", which was an experience that absolutely floored me, and there was some excellent curation involved there on behalf of the folks running the service. Still, the community is still very small.
I hear this from people who choose to use arch and Gentoo then complain that Linux requires much tweaking.
Install Ubuntu and be done with it. Or if you want things to work like a Mac, go with elementary OS.
If you still feel it's not _exactly_ to your liking, then I suggest you move back to osx.
Thinking this is real is a huge problem in the linux community. My entire post was about ubuntu. This is their trackpad guide in 2019: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SynapticsTouchpad
Stuff like that makes me wonder who Canonical's target audience is and who they're testing with.
> Or if you want things to work like a Mac, go with elementary OS.
This is a joke, right? It's basically some high quality apps (I can't emphasize that enough) and a skin. The issue isn't the quality of those apps, it's that the desktop paradigm is fundamentally different and wedded to the PC. I can't understand anyone who claims to have switched and gotten up to productivity within a few years—maybe I've been using macs too long.
Also, this type of hostility has a very chilling effect. I have had good experiences with the open source community personally, but public forums are utterly toxic to people who express opinions about gnu/linux/gnome/kde.
I think this is the main issue. You want your PC to work exactly like your Mac and are not prepared to learn the way the new system works.
Case in point: a lot of people complain about trackpad issues but Linux/windows do not use mouse gestures. You should learn to use gnome hot-zones and/or keyboard shortcuts because experience have shown us it is more efficient.
That's a clear over generalization. I started with Mac, used everything Mac for about 15 years (various Macbooks, Mabooks Pro, iMacs and one Mac Pro) and then changed to everything Linux about 5 years ago.
I am a scientific researcher, my main activity in the computer is programming, I didn't miss the Mac at all except for a little tool that I used for my personal life (GarageSale) and that I couldn't get anything similar (it's a tool to create eBay auctions in a much easier and nifty way).
Anyway, there is nothing about the Mac itself I miss.
I was impressed with the build quality of the Mac at the time (2012 model? 2013?) but as a Unix system it wasn't among the best. No built-in package manager and the popular option, Homebrew, was messy and temperamental. System updates were terrifying because you never knew what it did to software installed with Homebrew. System core utilities are from BSD or BSD like (forks from old versions?). The file system system hierarchy is a bit unconventional if you are used to *BSD or GNU/Linux. The file manager was clunky (though easily "fixed" with a modern Norton Commander clone). In the end I spent most days with a full screen terminal and a full screen browser. One thing I really liked was the touch pad. The motions make sense and it's pleasant to use even for long periods of time. Screen was also nice (retina).
It wasn't a great sense of loss when I turned that laptop back in, though. I bought a refurbished Thinkpad for probably a tenth of the price and was happy with that. I'd never buy a Mac myself. Maybe if I get into iOS development it would make sense, or really need to use Photoshop or some such software. Until then I see no reason to pay the premium, especially now that other manufacturers have high resolution screens. "It just works" is overstated because when it frequently does not in some slightly off-mainstream use case you have browse some Stack Exchange site or some Apple support forum to figure out how to fix it.
Overall, keyboard doesn't bother me that much after a couple of hours. I can type pretty fast in this thing. i5 duo core isn't that bad, either. I can multi-task quite well. So far I have zero regret.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20353148
Edit: added "reports are"
The Microsoft Ergo Keyboard, the first one released in 1995 or so, was well nigh perfect (well, once you remapped capslock to something useful, which you could do in software, or in hardware with a little gumption and some conductive paint). Probably saved my career. Then the quality of Microsoft keyboards went to hell as they cost-reduced their way to mediocrity. The more things change . . .
I use a Kinesis Gaming Keyboard now, and I think it's one of the best ergo keyboards on the market. It's programmable to a reasonable degree, has decent key feel, and I've been pounding on a couple of them pretty hard since they were released 2+ years ago without experiencing any issues. I think Kinesis has a clue, but that doesn't mean they won't change . . .
The Keyboardio keyboard has an interesting design and great build quality, but I'm too damned old to retrain, and it requires significant effort to reach a decent typing rate. I'm not up to it. I'd be very interested in buying a more traditional split keyboard from the Keyboardio team if they ever decide to build one. There are probably 10 people at my smallish company who would buy them, too. Kaia and Jesse, if you're reading this, take my money :-)
The Ultimate Hacking Keyboard is just not quite there. The build quality is excellent and the team put an incredible amount of work into the thing, but the lack of an ESC key just kills me. "Hacking" keyboard . . . but no escape key. I just don't understand. Yes, you can remap keys, but you're going to lose something important to a shift sequence that your fingers are going to stumble on for weeks. (Yes control-[ is ESC but this is not the 1970s and I'm not typing on an ADM3A terminal any more).
One thing I'd love to see is an ergo keyboard that includes pressure and velocity information along with keystrokes. I'd like a warning from the system that I'm typing too hard, for one thing, and I'm sure the information would be useful for other purposes.
We need a revival of bauhaus design - no distinction between form and function. If it falls short at its function, it fails as a form, and should not be accepted.
"Shit" is in a lot of ways subjective.
It is now at least
I had to get a new laptop, knew I was getting a 2019 MBP, and was terrified the keyboard experience would be horrendous due to the coverage I see on the topic here.
And it isn't at all. It feels different than my 2015 model, but... definitely not worse. I may even be just slightly better because it's noticeably quieter.
Just one perspective, but yeah. The keyboard rage on here should not be taken as anything approaching absolute truth.
I think the keyboard rage comes from the fact that they changed a perfectly fine keyboard with a bogus one, just to have a slightly slimmer laptop (along with many other gimmicks such as the touchbar, or the oversized trackpad).
There are much worse keyboards.
That said, even in my ideal, happy-path case, there’s one minor flaw I do occasionally run up against, which I rarely see mentioned: the keys are too close together. It’s easier – not greatly so, but perceptibly – to hit adjacent keys. There’s no question in my mind that going back to the old keyboard will be an improvement across the board, even for those who haven’t had any of the marquee issues.
Honestly, I thought it was all a fuss about nothing. But it isn't. BTW my machine is 6 months old. It started malfunctioning 2 months ago.
All this time I thought I had a 2019 model because I ordered it in 2019 and it came direct from the factory in China (not from existing stock).
Sorry if you already bought the lemon model. I'd sell before the new one drops to take less of a hit if I were in your shoes.
huh..
Most of the target market doesn’t need or want that stand.
Also, the fact it's a single-input monitor without HDMI input is a deal-killer for me: multiple-input monitors are fantastic when you have multiple machines on your desk and alternate between them based on the current job (e.g. laptop in docking station, Mac Mini for Safari + iOS testing, main desktop, dangling HDMI cable for connecting to tablets and phones).
At least try to google first how many people have issues with LG monitors.
I'm all aboard the USB-C train though, if only Apple would switch the rest of their lightning stuff over.
Since that's not happening, here's hoping that this year's iPhones finally ship with a USB-C charger and USB-C to Lightning cable in the box.
Shame. Last time I used it (early 2018) I still found OS X to be have the best overall balance of good to bad things (no current OS is exactly 'good'). But the hardware is a complete deal-breaker.
I've also felt that window management is better in Windows than in OS X. Multitasking feels faster and more intuitive on Windows 10.
And the times are worse outside the US.
They don't need to offer free trade-in. When the new machine is available I will buy it. Then return this broken one for a full refund. And there are literally half a dozen laws in the UK that entitle me to do so.
I absolutely agree, they should offer a significant discount to people trading them back in to get a replacement model.
[0] https://caio.ariede.life/macbook-blurred-keys/
In this case these aren't double shot, they are single shot that is painted/dyed and then has the lettering laser-etched out of the paint/dye.
Mine does this when I use video conferencing.
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/2018-macbook-pros-crash...
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20229123
[2] https://folivora.ai/
[3] https://goldenchaos.net/goldenchaos-btt.html
My problem isn't with the usability or usefulness of the TouchBar. My problem is that the mere presence of the TouchBar has created a point of failure that crashes the machine... when I'm not even using that feature!
Might still not buy one if they still have a Touch Bar though (and omg, touch bar was automatically made uppercase...)
Apple, I love you, but I hate you too.
Logic Pro is the only thing that might force me to by an inferior current model Macbook if my 2013 model croaks. I'm about to start experimenting with Ardour to see if my Logic Pro dependency can be removed.
> I'm ditching Macs and will pick up a Microsoft Surface Book
I'm not to that point yet. I'm not an apple fanboy, and I'm not really happy about the direction Apple is taking. But I still prefer Mac OS to Linux or Windows, and I've never seen a non-apple laptop that I've found particularly attractive. And they usually have their own issues too.
Let's hope they'll fix this particular issue.
I expect this to last me a decent handful of years; if Apple hasn't gotten their shit together by then, no matter how much I otherwise like their hardware, I'll have no choice but to pick something else and switch back to Linux.
It's one thing to fail at designing something because it is hard and you haven't figured it out yet. It's quite another to regress to incompetence on something you already perfected.
I wish they would keep it basically as-is, replace one of the (generally unused) thunderbolt ports with a USB-C port, add their secure enclave T2 security chip, and update the CPU/chipset. Maybe even add FaceID...
Seriously, the thing is a workhorse. I consistently run 4 screens while streaming Twitch/Youtube, running 1 or 2 emulators, 2 IDE's, and dozens of Chrome tabs. Thing only slows down on hot days when it can't cool off well enough.
I've been suffering with a 2018 MBP as well, and I'm done. The Touchbar and the arrow keys are killing me.
I'm giving them one more chance to fix their mistake with the 2019 MBP which should be announced in the next few weeks, otherwise I'm, going to a Vaio.
Coming from a Thinkpad (the standard for what makes a great keyboard), PowerBook Titanium (keyboard was bad, but nothing like the 2016/17 MacBook Pro), PowerBook 12 / 17 (my favorite), and the first MacBook Pro (still pretty great) everything starting with the unibody has been downhill. Ever since, the keyboard and I believe battery even have not been user replaceable. There was a time one could walk into an Apple Store and actually purchase the battery in a box off the shelf, take it to the counter and buy it like any other product.
I have a 2017 and 2018 15 inch MacBook Pro. The 2017 is almost unusable. The 2018 is much better relatively. I also had a 2015 13 inch. Can't say the keyboard was great on that either.
I've been tempted to try retrofit a 12 inch PowerBook with more modern parts like the devoted Thinkpad users have done.
- The keys were shaped to match the curve of your finger
- the stroke distance was very nice
- escape key
I think it started going downhill with the flat keys. Your fingers could not feel the key edges, would therefore not center, and you would mistype.
On the USB-C version there is a 1.5 to 2 second lag where if you turn the volume up you'll actually be turning the volume up on the speakers because it takes that long to switch audio sources.
No longer feels like a premium machine.
The thread from @getify ( https://twitter.com/getify/status/1165300052463480832 ) on having to wait 3 days for a repair, even though it is done in-store is truly infuriating. He is absolutely right that it makes no sense to have to leave a computer sitting around doing nothing, and you should just be able to be told to bring it back when your computer would be 24 hours away from being repaired. The computer isn't being shipped anywhere, but Apple must still severely hamper your productivity on a product you spent thousands of dollars on.
Their constant reference to a "small minority of users experiencing this" in light of these huge delays at the store for a super-quick and simple fix has become insulting. I won't register anywhere as someone "experiencing this issue" since I don't have 3 days to not use my computer for a fix that will probably break again in months.
It seems like the tighter spacing and lower travel result in more unintentional key presses.
He's lucky he has an Apple Store to go to. I had to turn in my 2017 MBP to a "Authorized Service Provider" who in turn had to send it in to Apple. I was without my machine for 10 days (luckily I still had my old, working 2012 MBPr I could just imagine my machine onto and keep working)
I assume you installed an image of your 2017 machine onto the 2012 machine... but the idea of imagining onto a machine is a nice one.
But these are not business type products, macbook pro laptops are luxury consumer goods if anything.
What are you basing this woefully uninformed statement on? Countless companies issue MBPs to their staff.
My 2015 MBP is affected by the battery recall and they want 2-3 weeks to send it off to a repair centre to have the battery replaced. No chance to have it done in-store owing to safety concerns (which I'm not sure I entirely buy given that it's an overheating issue, but it's hard to tell without the full details). And no budging on the timeframe or possibility of a loaner. One of the more frustrating customer service experiences.
Not that I'd like to be in charge of organising a recall of 500,000 laptops.
If you really have to understand the pain, the laptops are banned in Indian flights (domestic and international)[1]. Imagine a company issued laptop not being usable at an important customer exhibition and a lag of 2-3 weeks :-(
https://www.livemint.com/technology/tech-news/specific-model...
In the past 5 or so years, however, Apple has consistently been killing their 3rd party repair eco system, as well documented by Louis Rossmann. The idea that they may recommend a 3rd party repair source seems unimaginable, but further, most 3rd party repair basically involves sending the package to Apple repair anyways, as they’re not allowed to make changes on their own for anything but a small subset of issues.
I've been recommended them before, it's not unimaginable, and no, they generally don't send it to Apple (source: a good friend who works at London Drugs, which has a fairly good Apple-authorized computer shop inside of its various locations in Canada). If the laptop itself isn't serviceable (e.g. rare things like diagnosed catastrophic mainboard failure) they will just replace it from repair stock if it's under warranty. The top case / keyboard IS serviceable by most third party outlets to my understanding.
https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2019/08/apple-offers-customer...
> New Independent Repair Provider Program Expands Genuine Parts Access to More Repair Businesses
> Cupertino, California — Apple today announced a new repair program, offering customers additional options for the most common out-of-warranty iPhone repairs. Apple will provide more independent repair businesses — large or small — with the same genuine parts, tools, training, repair manuals and diagnostics as its Apple Authorized Service Providers (AASPs). The program is launching in the US with plans to expand to other countries.
> “To better meet our customers’ needs, we’re making it easier for independent providers across the US to tap into the same resources as our Apple Authorized Service Provider network,” said Jeff Williams, Apple’s chief operating officer. “When a repair is needed, a customer should have confidence the repair is done right. We believe the safest and most reliable repair is one handled by a trained technician using genuine parts that have been properly engineered and rigorously tested.”
For "most common out-of-warranty iPhone repairs" I'd bet they're talking about batteries and screens. Especially alongside the recent "battery health" change where it only gives stats for Apple's batteries.
Oh - but it gets worse. I had my keyboard replaced a year ago, and it took over a week. In Norway they don't stock US International keyboards, which I can accept, but they can't (or won't, hard to tell) order a replacement unit before taking it into service. So it has to stay with them while they wait a 3-5 days just to get the spare parts. Great!
I was about to walk out of the store when they told me they needed my password to run "keyboard diagnostics" and that they were unsure wether or not KEYS FALLING OFF was covered by warranty.
But yeah given the known widespread keyboard issues for the Macbooks...
In general you never know with people :P. We also bought tablets/phones. Guy came in with his kids, kid tries to sell us a kindle fire that's in great condition that he "found in the woods" - right the woods? Do you mean somebodies backpack?
You're really that busy? You don't have a PC or a spare old laptop to continue working on?
Never even had a second thought about the keyboard and I code for real, as in, I get paid for it.
Not a factor. I also know people that don't have a problem with the MBP keyboard, I also know many colleagues who are driven to distraction daily (myself included).
And so do millions of people so,how come my mass produced keyboard works just fine? Am I too insensitive or what? Something wrong with me?
I guess I can’t understand how anyone could be driven to distraction. If it’s that bad, it’s time for Aderall, not a blog post.
Yet another considered harmful
I cannot see any problem with my keyboard. Yet, everyone condescends like I’m stupid.
Same old HN