The media and activists are largely to blame here.
If a child wants to opine on climate change or abortion or whatever, that's fine. But activists and the media shouldn't push to elevate that child to the national stage to score political points.
Once you've set yourself up as a political activist, people will respond to your beliefs, and they won't always be kind.
Excellent. Blame the victim for having an opinion.
People are not responding to their beliefs though - this is straight up abuse, racism, and crass insults. Presumably as they are unable to engage with those beliefs at a rational level.
I have no idea either... this train of thought is rampant in this thread and other forums. Condemn the use of props in politics without a single thought towards the disgusting behavior of everyone involved who attack children and their parents. Did everyone forget how every politician takes photo ops with babies? The token appearances at disasters? Props are not new to politics but direct harassment of individuals under the age of 18 is thanks to the double-edged sword of global connectedness.
Internet trolls are an inevitable outcome of large-scale anonymous communication. We can opine about how the world should be all day long, but at some point adults need to be pragmatic in their care. Just as they shouldn't take children to seedy dive bars because of the inevitable exposure to bad things, so too should they be shielded from communities in which abuse is inevitable.
The activists and media are to blame for the harassment? What about the people doing the harassment? Trolls have 100% responsibility for their behavior. Any suggestion otherwise is not grounded.
If the kids WANT to participate, why not let them? This girl started protesting by herself.She took initiative, raised her voice and dis something. Should we stop her from doing that?
Because they're kids and they don't have a clue. If I was her parent, I would have stopped her. She should be getting an education, so she doesn't end up as a homeless activist one day.
They would be protected by meaningful government action on climate change. A comfortable childhood will mean nothing to these kids if their adulthoods are ruined by the consequences of the inaction of older generations, and the kids know it and want to do something about it.
this rhetoric is going a bit too far. The UN children's convention protects children . When (and if) climate change will affect these people they will be adults.
Don’t put words in my mouth. And what about financial debt? Is the only argument you have non sequitur? Or do you just feel like it’s important you keep talking even when you have nothing left to say?
> Trolling is a fundamental right , not being trolled is not
Freedom of association is as fundamental a right as freedom of speech, and freedom of association means that nobody is entitled to an audience.
If you email me, I have the right to block your emails, and indeed refuse all email from your domain.
If you DM me on Twitter or Mastodon, I have the right to mute you, and indeed the right to refuse all DMs from non-mutuals.
If you come to my house to harangue me, I have every right to call the police and have you charged with harassment -- and in some jurisdictions I might even be able to get away with shooting you and claiming I did so in self-defense.
Trolling is not a right, it's an abuse of a right.
You have freedom to express yourself, but using that freedom to harass others for fun is strongly discouraged in society. It flies on the Internet because people can show their worst behavior with practically no discouragement.
It's trolling. Trolls want shock, and will resort to anything for it, even if illegal.
But let's leave that aside. Do you consider gratuitous insults, slurs, doctored images and defamation aimed at a single individual, a protected right? If a troll did that in person, he would likely be dealt with legally, that's why they do it in numbers and behind a virtual gate. The idea of impunity brings the worst of them.
> Trolling is a fundamental right , not being trolled is not
This is hilariously wrong in most jurisdictions, probably including the one you’re thinking of.
You may be parseing down ‘trolling’ to ‘behaving argumentatively on the internets’ but this is not the substance of what attacks are being brought against these young women, who are also minors.
Feel free to double down on “death threats aren’t trolling” and so on, if you’ve missed the point. UDHR article 12 for further reading.
"Selected" by who? George Soros? Young people are going to start speaking out disproportionately about gun violence in school and how it relates to pathological communities like 8chan and Gab, and climate change because it's their future. Half of them will be female.
"Young girls not being able to express an opinion because of trolls" is a totally ass-backwards way of looking at the situation. Society in the age of social media just needs a way of shoving trolls back under the rocks they've historically sleazed around under.
What you are describing is a common leftist trolling tactic that is highly effective. Here is a video on woke brands that describes the process. https://youtu.be/06yy88tLWlg essentially they take a person that Is in some protected class or group, make them say something thats slightly left but not super controversial, then invite right wing trolls to the party and give the trolls a bunch of publicity while playing victim. It’s a super popular viral market strategy right now.
It would be nice if there was some kind of scoring about the probability that something like this was organic or a coordinated campaign with sockpuppets.
It's also a glaring example of weak points in current law and Twitter specifically. First, Twitter really needs expand its privacy options. Someone should be able to publicly share an opinion without allowing anyone to reply to their timeline or DM them. On the legal point, sending graphic pictures to underaged girls is a sex crime, and underfunded law enforcement is not keeping up given physical crimes and multijurisdictional nature. Interpol or a related entity has to start chasing down criminals that send sexual material to young people. It is plainly child abuse regardless of politics.
Sad to see. Although, honestly, the parents shouldn't have allowed their kids to put themselves in these 'activist' positions to begin with. What did they expect? And also, a 16 year old girl speaking at the UN? Is that a joke?
I fully support protecting the environment but this is child exploitation for political purposes. These movements should be led by scientists, not children. Is it any wonder people are still skeptical?
The movement has been led by scientists for decades. They have been ignored.
If it's shameful that a 16 year old is being forced to lead a movement, the shame is on society and the older generations for not doing anything about climate change despite manifest urgency.
Exactly. This whole child thing was invented by the Nazis to gain popularity. Now they use the same tactic for climate in the UN. Madness. That child will grow up and must face the consequences of the action of her parents.
No. She gets up one day with an opinion she's felt strongly about and goes alone with a hand made sign to sit outside her government's office. Next day others joined. Then it kept escalating.
Kids have strong opinions. Teenagers can have especially strong opinions. Of course it has to be a conspiracy with someone behind the scenes pulling strings.
Or more specifically a very well funded organized movement made her their figurehead after she was “discovered”. Same way Disney discovers their talent
No, going to the UN is there outcome of a movement that started out as a one-person protest at a national parliameny, something that's a lot more plausible for a teen.
Still, not common, but there are enough teens in the world that there are substantial absolute numbers that are deep into the tails of any distribution. Not everyone is average.
If you listen to the transcripts, this is essentially what they're campaigning for - for the adults to take charge. And these kids are being congratulated for speaking out while the contents of their message are ignored. It's frustrating to watch.
I guess what I'm trying to say that is that kids, whether they're right or wrong, aren't really qualified to promote a public opinion on any issue.
You also have to remember that they're being allowed to skip school to do this. When I was a kid, I would have gone to practically any rally if it meant skipping class..
I'm reminded of a quote: people don't want a democracy, they want a dictatorship that they agree with. I think a similar idea applies here. They don't really care that the child isn't qualified and their brains are still forming; if it's an idea they agree with, they'll use them as political figures to achieve their own goals.
Anyone who's going to be affected is qualified to express their opinion, it seems to me, and children are going to be affected by climate change long after the rest of us are gone.
Let me put it a different way - the kids campaigning for climate action are not convincing anyone who wasn't already on board. It's literally just a show that's riling up the people who are already supporters. It's harmful to the kids and not accomplishing much else.
So the people that weren't convinced by the scientists will now be convinced by the children? And no, she's not changing my mind because I already support protecting the environment.
And the 'whole idea' amounts to child abuse. A kid her age is not prepared to be a public figure and all the pressures that come with it. She shouldn't be up there period. And everyone who says that 'the adults aren't doing anything so the kids have to', why aren't the adults who use this argument doing something then?
She can pursue it, but I wouldn't let my child skip school to do it..
Also, if it's related to politics there is a ton of misinformation and a child can easily be manipulated into landing on the wrong side of the fence.
Yes, in the age where you need more knowledge than ever in order to have a living wage, where menial labor is being automated faster and faster, we need less education. Good point.
People didn't listen to Carl Sagan, James Hansen, or other big-name scientists who spoke up. Putting another scientist up there will just get them dismissed like all the others, because at the core of the issue is that we have a huge voting block that doesn't want to change and doesn't want to listen, and will contort whatever any movement leader says so that they can ignore it.
In a world where most “adults” seem self-serving, complacent, or corrupt, I think we should be thankful that our young people are unwilling to embrace this nihilistic state of affairs and demand change. And they’re among the few that are listening to the scientists instead of their narrow self-interest.
I'm reminded of this rather dark few lines from Naked Lunch:
“In lifeproof houses they hover over the young, sop up a little of what they shut out. Only the young bring anything in, and they are not young very long.”
>but this is child exploitation for political purposes. These movements should be led by scientists, not children. Is it any wonder people are still skeptical?
I know climate change is a huge problem, but using young children like this feels creepy and cult-like.
On the other hand - that kid will draw more general public's attention than even the most famous and accredited scientists. Just reality we're living in - unless it's a public show it will be ignored, no matter how serious issues are.
>mom of 8-year-old climate activist Havana Chapman-Edwards
Is it just me, or is there something disturbing about an 8 year old activist for anything? I cannot see anything good coming from turning young children into activists. Kids that age need love and stability, not the fear that the world is going to end unless they do something.
It’s a question of agency. Young children rarely get the feeling that anything they do has inherent value.
Something as simple as gathering twigs for a campfire is unusual specifically because it’s helpful. Activism at that age is a mix of learning experience and actually useful. So, IMO it can be a positive activity in the right context.
But there's nothing an 8 year old can do to be helpful for climate change. At 8 you don't even really understand what the climate is or how it's different from weather, let alone what CO2 or methane are.
This appears to just be a continuation of the disturbing trend of adults trying to make themselves feel virtuous by speaking through their children.
8 is ~3rd grade. That’s old enough to look up and understand things that interest them. While I doubt every 8 year old had that understanding, this is about a specific 8 year old.
I specifically remember a science class in third grade that had photosynthesis producing Oxygen and asking my dad for more information. In the age of the Internet someone getting the basic chemistry idea that molecules are made from atoms thing down should not be that surprising.
IMO, it’s plenty old enough to understand why cars get so hot inside when left in the sun which is about as far as the vast majority of adults understand climate change.
Attacking the messenger* is not ok, particularly when they are vulnerable. It is our duty as a society to find safe places for 8, or 18 year olds, and anybody to express themselves without fear.
The fear should be focused on the message, and could turn into: What are you personally doing to combat climate change? What will you say you did when you look back in 2050.
*There is an exception for those who seek to undermine the system. The Nazis, the people who send porn to 13 year olds, the columnists who continuously deny climate change is real.
Imagine telling that to your young child every day and then wondering why your child has anxiety disorders and social problems. Part of being a responsible parent is shielding your children from the horrors of the world, so that they can develop in a stable and sane environment.
It can go the other way as well. My parents were helicopter parents that thought they were doing their best by shielding me "from the horrors of the world" and I suffer from related anxiety orders and social problems. I would've rather been exposed to more and had the ability to form my own opinions
I'm sure we can agree there is middle ground. I don't think instilling in them that they are just "waiting to die" unless they skip school and march in the streets counts as that middle ground.
I do my best on this, but if she knew about the climate strike I would have let her join it.
It's no good denying the reality of the situation we are in just to spare sad/anxious feelings. This generation has a choice:
1) Survive but feel anxious
2) Die, but be happy as a child, then angry it was hidden from you after it's too late to do anything
It's an unfortunate dilemma but we must choose the better of these, yeah? It's probably 'try to survive' rather than 'bread and circuses'. It's fair that the people most likely to be affected by this are the ones most concerned/active about doing something about it.
> Kids that age need love and stability, not the fear that the world is going to end unless they do something
Then we should be doing something, we should be building a world where they don’t have to live in credible fear of mass extinctions, food crises, escalating natural disasters, and state violence in response to them. That children aren’t being afforded that by our inaction and complacency, are forced into this role to defend their basic survival, is what is far more disturbing.
Kids are often involved by schools with nature projects, beach cleanups, litter, recycling, learning about bugs and insects etc. They might even get a little exposure to media such as radio, TV, David Attenborough, social media and such.
They are forming their own opinions. Sometimes strongly held. They are forming their own opinions on how well the world is not being managed environmentally, climatically etc. It's kinda hard to miss.
I feel the same too. What on earth would prompt a parent to expose their kids to doing this at this age and everything that comes with it.
I find this phenomenon of pushing these kids to the forefront of climate change protests really alarming. Any call to action seeks to bypass your critical thinking especially when it comes to children. Emotions start to short circuit the rational thought.
Yes, this is a global problem in that it affects us all and needs some global cooperation, but this is not the way.
This will cause more harm to these kids and I fear the hasty decisions taken based on this activism would be myopic and may lull us into complacency or worst do more harm than good.
My kids are 8 and 9. I’ve sheltered them from the world until now on the basis you suggest but reality is breaking through. I can’t get away with lying to them anymore about the planet. So no an activist at 8 is not disturbing it’s kind of inspiring.
When it's too late and the worst of the effects of this climate emergency are upon us, I would not want to be one of these climate deniers. There is going to be a reckoning and the reaction of people whose children are going to die will not be pretty.
This is not going away. What kind of person this badly disregards the science? Do these deniers also take their children to Witch Doctors? No? Oh, well then they like _some_ of the science.
Using children as political tools is disgusting. It's blatantly manipulative. Throwing them into the cess-pool of public politics and then acting as if you're shocked they're in a cess-pool, and using that shock to try to score political points, is one of the more reprehensible tactics in the modern play book.
Even if it's wrong for parents to expose kids to toxic online environments like Twitter, surely you'd agree that someone trolling kids online (like with "She seems like a very happy young girl looking forward to a bright and wonderful future. So nice to see!") should be ashamed of themselves and driven out of polite society, yes?
> surely you'd agree that someone trolling kids online ... should be ashamed of themselves and driven out of polite society, yes?
I think pretty much everyone involved here, aside from the children, ought to be ashamed of themselves. I don't buy into the idea that people ought to be driven out of society though.
I'd be curious to learn how many of these children actually decided to engage in activism themselves. If there's anything I learned while in competitive sports, it's that parents have no problem forcing their kids into things the kids don't care about because they want their kids to be famous professional athletes and I imagine this situation is similar.
Its like taking your kid to a strip club. Its putting your child in danger to begin with. Of course trolls are still responsible for their behavior, but the parents are not off the hook.
Not only that, but their age and lack of development is actively used as a shield for the ideas they're representing: "How dare you attack a child!" It's so duplicitous I'm surprised more people aren't condemning it.
I agree, but it's also disgusting to troll, harass, and personally attack children who are thrown (or throw themselves, she's a teen) into the political cesspool. Everyone involved should be ashamed.
I must point out that the larger problem here is that our politics is such a cesspool of trolling and sensationalism and personal attacks. We have lost the ability to even have a rational discourse about issues with the dialogue now being dominated by shrill fanatics and attention whoring trolls on all sides.
Maybe perhaps we could try to raise the level of discourse across the board? Why does it have to be a cess pool at all?
We really have to do something to reduce the firehose of twitter/FB bots and trolls with no accountability. It's like the old days of email spam, but with targetted abuse and harassment.
The problem is that the only thing you can do is limit free speech, and that has far worse implications than just dealing with the trolls. Silencing people based on their opinions, however much you may disagree with those opinions, will lead always result in dystopia.
Weaponizing children can go in both directions. Isn't it abuse and harassment telling children that they're doomed, that they have no future, that earth will be ruined in 10 years?
If crime increases in the neighborhood, do you tell your children they're going to die? No, you tell them to be careful, to follow some simple, easy-for-them rules, and that things will be fine.
Yeah, kids have no place in politics. They should stay quiet, play minecraft, impress their parents with fun science projects, but under no circumstances should they speak out, and anybody amplifying their voice is disgusting and reprehensible.
It's amazing to me this is actually a debate. The US Constitution forbids people under 25 from being in Congress because children are not expected to have reasonable political opinions. They're children! They've never paid tax, worked or truly made their own decisions or experienced the consequences.
In this case, do you think these children are being presented with any alternate views at all? Are any of them being presented with the arguments of climate change skeptics in a neutral forum? Of course not. Most adults are never presented with these arguments, let alone children. No, they're being told that for inexplicable reasons the world is filled with evil people who want everyone to die and they ... children ... must fight them or the world will end! That'd have been like telling 8 year olds in the 1950s they had to fight communism. There's no way bringing children of that age into things can ever be a good idea.
Have you considered the possibility that these kids are actually just passionate about it? And what are these "alternate views" regarding climate change you mention? There is the truth and there is misinformation perpetuated by the oil/natural gas/plastic/etc companies and those getting paid by them.
Think about it. When you're a kid, you're not yet jaded by the harsh realities of the world. That corporations drive everything and we are basically just along for the ride.
The kids are looking at our dying planet and wondering "why is nobody doing anything?!?" I often feel the same way. The difference is, I have to go to work and focus on providing for my family. I also know that no amount of protesting or public speaking will change the path we are on in any significant way. Children still believe they can make a difference and I admire that passion. They are not worried about how old they are because they are watching the "adults" sit around and argue over even the smallest of corrective measures (carbon tax).
Have you considered the possibility that these kids are actually just passionate about it?
Yes, but so what? 8 year olds are passionate about eating endless amounts of ice cream. Doesn't mean that passion should be acted on.
There is the truth and there is misinformation perpetuated by the oil/natural gas/plastic/etc companies
Plastic companies? That's a new one! I don't think I've heard Big Plastic be described as staffed by liars before.
You sound like you've never really listened to climate change skeptics. Some of them make valid points, worrying points about media exaggeration of genuine science, actual scientific malpractice and the frequency of failed predictions in the past. You should try it. It may prove mind expanding.
But do you really want to immerse yourself in ambiguity? Or do you want to see the world as a titanic struggle between good and evil? Children very much want the latter. Disney movies always depict a purely good hero/purely evil villain dichotomy because these are stories designed for children who can't/won't handle anything complex, and additionally in order to teach them a moral code.
When I see the rhetoric around climate science, it often reminds me of Disney movies. There's Good People like the speaker and then a dark, shadowy conspiracy of Evil People whose inexplicably malign and self-destructive motives are never explained ... and who certainly aren't allowed to explain themselves!
After all, are you the devil you decry?
The difference is, I have to go to work and focus on providing for my family.
Indeed. Or put a bit more harshly, "why is nobody doing anything" has a simple answer: because people like you have chosen to enjoy the benefits the world has to offer in its current form, benefits like having a family and a job that's based further than walking distance.
Children have never had to provide for anyone. How can they understand this decision, the tradeoffs that go into it? Why should any adults care what they think about the big issues of the day when they've spent their entire lives in carefully controlled environments, one in which to disagree with the opinions of "experts" (teachers) yields swift and immediate punishment? They can't even start to think for themselves until they're outside that environment, which for a few could take a couple more decades.
Has anyone tried to do an analysis on these trolls? Who are they and why are they trolling? I'm concerned that these aren't normal people and instead people interested in maintaining the status quo are coordinating these activities.
My default assumption is that trolls attacking any sort of "leftist" activist are either alt-reich channers or corporate astroturfers. I don't assume good faith on the part of trolls, but instead always suspect an ulterior motive.
At this point I no longer care. If we're not mutuals, and you attempt to reach me on Twitter, you're just wasting your time because I send unsolicited interaction attempts by non-mutuals to /dev/null.
Of course the trolls are wrong for trolling, but trolling is a fact of life on the web.
When I was a kid I was told to never link any online account with my real identity and to always regard every person encountered on the web as a potential bad actor. The article begins with the story of an 11-year-old whose identity is linked to a public Twitter account.
There is a distinct lack of recognition for the failures in parenting taking place here. Personal safety and privacy are necessities for a healthy childhood, a public soapbox is not.
My first thought is that it's like taking children to a strip club. Twitter and the online political world are just inherently unfit for children.
It would be one thing if the kids were doing original research and social media were the only way to distribute the research, but neither of those are true.
We should be asking how we can make these better environments for children, because saying children can't use a public twitter account is not going to fly. Also attributing it to bad parenting is also a cop-out in my opinion. Not all of these concerns are immediately visible to parents. If they don't use twitter themselves they might not be aware of how it can be used.
It would be slightly less hypocritical if some of the same people that are wringing their hands about people being mean to Greta Thunberg weren't egging on awfulness against the Covington kids.
I'm not sympathetic to those who are moralizing about trolling this child they like, when they just put down the torches and pitchforks they had out for a different child they don't like.
Ms. Thunberg is actually doing something useful: she's challenging those in power to stop being content to profit from the status quo, get off their over-privileged asses, and clean up after themselves instead of leaving the mess for her generation to deal with.
We're lucky kids her age are still talking, and haven't decided that the situation is sufficiently dire to justify the use of violence.
I'm sorry, but I wouldn't equate a young person standing up for protecting our environment and actually making real changes to a young person who decided to take his trolling public and stare down an elder aboriginal man...
It's not right, either. The thread had barely started and there seemed to be some interesting, civil comments among the blatant bait. I hope the mods can catch it. You can 'vouch' for flagged comments, but not posts, which usually helps poorly-flagged items.
Cults of personality are always strange to behold, no matter who the central figure is, or what their message is (for good or ill), at least IMO & there's a lot about the coverage of young Greta that feels very cult of personality-ish
Then they should have a reporting option that goes something like "User is under 13" which requires a verification of parental consent to continue use of the account, otherwise it's just a blatant violation of COPPA.
The fact is that these young activists make great stories. The News Media loves it. It's very good for journalism and publicity. Everyone loves a story.
So many claiming it's adults pulling strings and getting their kids into politics or activism.
Just one point to make to that: For any kid protesting, or caring about climate, it's been an issue that's been constantly in the background their whole damn life. Longer than they've been able to read.
Things we've had longer than 18 years: Recycling bins; climate and associated environmental stories such as species loss on news, documentaries, in schools; politicians talking about, dismissing and greenwashing climate; climate related taxes; alternative lightbulbs, insulation and low-energy promotions from utility companies. [other countries may vary on details, and age of majority]
How can they possibly not be forming strong opinions, and wanting to do something?
Remember CND and the peace movements? That was part of the kid's and youth culture of the sixties - for that generation that was impossible to miss with the constant Cold War backdrop. This generation gets added trolling and conspiracy claims of it being adults pulling strings.
Kids are simply used these days to deflect any criticism, HOW DARE YOU CRITICIZE A 16 YR OLD KID
The truth is most of these children are just that, children, they are being used by capitalistic parents as a walking billboard for whatever agenda or service is being promoted.
Awareness is great and all but not many people are looking to be more aware, we are looking for practical solutions, none of which are being offered with all the attention goes to idolizing a child.
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[ 2.9 ms ] story [ 74.3 ms ] threadAdults are bullying children
If a child wants to opine on climate change or abortion or whatever, that's fine. But activists and the media shouldn't push to elevate that child to the national stage to score political points.
Once you've set yourself up as a political activist, people will respond to your beliefs, and they won't always be kind.
People are not responding to their beliefs though - this is straight up abuse, racism, and crass insults. Presumably as they are unable to engage with those beliefs at a rational level.
We also shouldn't elevate our children to become spokespeople for the world.
Let kids be kids.
Trolling is a fundamental right , not being trolled is not
If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and take the spirit of the site more to heart, we'd appreciate it.
Freedom of association is as fundamental a right as freedom of speech, and freedom of association means that nobody is entitled to an audience.
If you email me, I have the right to block your emails, and indeed refuse all email from your domain.
If you DM me on Twitter or Mastodon, I have the right to mute you, and indeed the right to refuse all DMs from non-mutuals.
If you come to my house to harangue me, I have every right to call the police and have you charged with harassment -- and in some jurisdictions I might even be able to get away with shooting you and claiming I did so in self-defense.
You have freedom to express yourself, but using that freedom to harass others for fun is strongly discouraged in society. It flies on the Internet because people can show their worst behavior with practically no discouragement.
But let's leave that aside. Do you consider gratuitous insults, slurs, doctored images and defamation aimed at a single individual, a protected right? If a troll did that in person, he would likely be dealt with legally, that's why they do it in numbers and behind a virtual gate. The idea of impunity brings the worst of them.
This is hilariously wrong in most jurisdictions, probably including the one you’re thinking of.
You may be parseing down ‘trolling’ to ‘behaving argumentatively on the internets’ but this is not the substance of what attacks are being brought against these young women, who are also minors.
Feel free to double down on “death threats aren’t trolling” and so on, if you’ve missed the point. UDHR article 12 for further reading.
"Young girls not being able to express an opinion because of trolls" is a totally ass-backwards way of looking at the situation. Society in the age of social media just needs a way of shoving trolls back under the rocks they've historically sleazed around under.
It's also a glaring example of weak points in current law and Twitter specifically. First, Twitter really needs expand its privacy options. Someone should be able to publicly share an opinion without allowing anyone to reply to their timeline or DM them. On the legal point, sending graphic pictures to underaged girls is a sex crime, and underfunded law enforcement is not keeping up given physical crimes and multijurisdictional nature. Interpol or a related entity has to start chasing down criminals that send sexual material to young people. It is plainly child abuse regardless of politics.
I fully support protecting the environment but this is child exploitation for political purposes. These movements should be led by scientists, not children. Is it any wonder people are still skeptical?
If it's shameful that a 16 year old is being forced to lead a movement, the shame is on society and the older generations for not doing anything about climate change despite manifest urgency.
It doesn't say much at all for the generation that's ignoring the issue.
Kids have strong opinions. Teenagers can have especially strong opinions. Of course it has to be a conspiracy with someone behind the scenes pulling strings.
Still, not common, but there are enough teens in the world that there are substantial absolute numbers that are deep into the tails of any distribution. Not everyone is average.
Oh, fuck you. Greta is taking better care of your kid than you are.
Ppl ignored the adults. This is what you get.
The "kids" will inherit our poor decisions so they're making a stand.
Why? If your child is passionate about something, why would you disallow them from pursuing it?
“In lifeproof houses they hover over the young, sop up a little of what they shut out. Only the young bring anything in, and they are not young very long.”
― William S. Burroughs
I know climate change is a huge problem, but using young children like this feels creepy and cult-like.
The real joke are the adult idiots who'd rather destroy our planet than listen to someone speaking uncomfortable truths.
Is it just me, or is there something disturbing about an 8 year old activist for anything? I cannot see anything good coming from turning young children into activists. Kids that age need love and stability, not the fear that the world is going to end unless they do something.
https://www.amazon.com/Activist-Innosanto-Nagara/dp/16098053...
Yes, that's an activism board book for 3 year olds. Yes, there's an entire genre of these.
Having a genuine, important and understandable cause is likely to amplify that.
Something as simple as gathering twigs for a campfire is unusual specifically because it’s helpful. Activism at that age is a mix of learning experience and actually useful. So, IMO it can be a positive activity in the right context.
This appears to just be a continuation of the disturbing trend of adults trying to make themselves feel virtuous by speaking through their children.
I specifically remember a science class in third grade that had photosynthesis producing Oxygen and asking my dad for more information. In the age of the Internet someone getting the basic chemistry idea that molecules are made from atoms thing down should not be that surprising.
IMO, it’s plenty old enough to understand why cars get so hot inside when left in the sun which is about as far as the vast majority of adults understand climate change.
The fear should be focused on the message, and could turn into: What are you personally doing to combat climate change? What will you say you did when you look back in 2050.
*There is an exception for those who seek to undermine the system. The Nazis, the people who send porn to 13 year olds, the columnists who continuously deny climate change is real.
It's no good denying the reality of the situation we are in just to spare sad/anxious feelings. This generation has a choice:
1) Survive but feel anxious
2) Die, but be happy as a child, then angry it was hidden from you after it's too late to do anything
It's an unfortunate dilemma but we must choose the better of these, yeah? It's probably 'try to survive' rather than 'bread and circuses'. It's fair that the people most likely to be affected by this are the ones most concerned/active about doing something about it.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Then we should be doing something, we should be building a world where they don’t have to live in credible fear of mass extinctions, food crises, escalating natural disasters, and state violence in response to them. That children aren’t being afforded that by our inaction and complacency, are forced into this role to defend their basic survival, is what is far more disturbing.
They are forming their own opinions. Sometimes strongly held. They are forming their own opinions on how well the world is not being managed environmentally, climatically etc. It's kinda hard to miss.
Kids get more reposts/retweets/shares so the parents can rake in that ad/sponsorship money by making them public figures
I find this phenomenon of pushing these kids to the forefront of climate change protests really alarming. Any call to action seeks to bypass your critical thinking especially when it comes to children. Emotions start to short circuit the rational thought.
Yes, this is a global problem in that it affects us all and needs some global cooperation, but this is not the way.
This will cause more harm to these kids and I fear the hasty decisions taken based on this activism would be myopic and may lull us into complacency or worst do more harm than good.
This is not going away. What kind of person this badly disregards the science? Do these deniers also take their children to Witch Doctors? No? Oh, well then they like _some_ of the science.
I think pretty much everyone involved here, aside from the children, ought to be ashamed of themselves. I don't buy into the idea that people ought to be driven out of society though.
I must point out that the larger problem here is that our politics is such a cesspool of trolling and sensationalism and personal attacks. We have lost the ability to even have a rational discourse about issues with the dialogue now being dominated by shrill fanatics and attention whoring trolls on all sides.
We really have to do something to reduce the firehose of twitter/FB bots and trolls with no accountability. It's like the old days of email spam, but with targetted abuse and harassment.
If crime increases in the neighborhood, do you tell your children they're going to die? No, you tell them to be careful, to follow some simple, easy-for-them rules, and that things will be fine.
In this case, do you think these children are being presented with any alternate views at all? Are any of them being presented with the arguments of climate change skeptics in a neutral forum? Of course not. Most adults are never presented with these arguments, let alone children. No, they're being told that for inexplicable reasons the world is filled with evil people who want everyone to die and they ... children ... must fight them or the world will end! That'd have been like telling 8 year olds in the 1950s they had to fight communism. There's no way bringing children of that age into things can ever be a good idea.
Think about it. When you're a kid, you're not yet jaded by the harsh realities of the world. That corporations drive everything and we are basically just along for the ride.
The kids are looking at our dying planet and wondering "why is nobody doing anything?!?" I often feel the same way. The difference is, I have to go to work and focus on providing for my family. I also know that no amount of protesting or public speaking will change the path we are on in any significant way. Children still believe they can make a difference and I admire that passion. They are not worried about how old they are because they are watching the "adults" sit around and argue over even the smallest of corrective measures (carbon tax).
Yes, but so what? 8 year olds are passionate about eating endless amounts of ice cream. Doesn't mean that passion should be acted on.
There is the truth and there is misinformation perpetuated by the oil/natural gas/plastic/etc companies
Plastic companies? That's a new one! I don't think I've heard Big Plastic be described as staffed by liars before.
You sound like you've never really listened to climate change skeptics. Some of them make valid points, worrying points about media exaggeration of genuine science, actual scientific malpractice and the frequency of failed predictions in the past. You should try it. It may prove mind expanding.
But do you really want to immerse yourself in ambiguity? Or do you want to see the world as a titanic struggle between good and evil? Children very much want the latter. Disney movies always depict a purely good hero/purely evil villain dichotomy because these are stories designed for children who can't/won't handle anything complex, and additionally in order to teach them a moral code.
When I see the rhetoric around climate science, it often reminds me of Disney movies. There's Good People like the speaker and then a dark, shadowy conspiracy of Evil People whose inexplicably malign and self-destructive motives are never explained ... and who certainly aren't allowed to explain themselves!
After all, are you the devil you decry?
The difference is, I have to go to work and focus on providing for my family.
Indeed. Or put a bit more harshly, "why is nobody doing anything" has a simple answer: because people like you have chosen to enjoy the benefits the world has to offer in its current form, benefits like having a family and a job that's based further than walking distance.
Children have never had to provide for anyone. How can they understand this decision, the tradeoffs that go into it? Why should any adults care what they think about the big issues of the day when they've spent their entire lives in carefully controlled environments, one in which to disagree with the opinions of "experts" (teachers) yields swift and immediate punishment? They can't even start to think for themselves until they're outside that environment, which for a few could take a couple more decades.
Yes, single handedly, just her, her famous parents, a PR team and millions of dollars worth of support from the likes of George Soros et al.
When it comes to randos on the internet who hide behind anime or Warhammer 40K avatars and post mostly memes, the answer is "hell, no".
When I was a kid I was told to never link any online account with my real identity and to always regard every person encountered on the web as a potential bad actor. The article begins with the story of an 11-year-old whose identity is linked to a public Twitter account.
There is a distinct lack of recognition for the failures in parenting taking place here. Personal safety and privacy are necessities for a healthy childhood, a public soapbox is not.
It would be one thing if the kids were doing original research and social media were the only way to distribute the research, but neither of those are true.
I'm not sympathetic to those who are moralizing about trolling this child they like, when they just put down the torches and pitchforks they had out for a different child they don't like.
We're lucky kids her age are still talking, and haven't decided that the situation is sufficiently dire to justify the use of violence.
Hopefully the mods will second-chance it, as despite the oh-so-predictable trash comments there's an important issue.
Just one point to make to that: For any kid protesting, or caring about climate, it's been an issue that's been constantly in the background their whole damn life. Longer than they've been able to read.
Things we've had longer than 18 years: Recycling bins; climate and associated environmental stories such as species loss on news, documentaries, in schools; politicians talking about, dismissing and greenwashing climate; climate related taxes; alternative lightbulbs, insulation and low-energy promotions from utility companies. [other countries may vary on details, and age of majority]
How can they possibly not be forming strong opinions, and wanting to do something?
Remember CND and the peace movements? That was part of the kid's and youth culture of the sixties - for that generation that was impossible to miss with the constant Cold War backdrop. This generation gets added trolling and conspiracy claims of it being adults pulling strings.
The truth is most of these children are just that, children, they are being used by capitalistic parents as a walking billboard for whatever agenda or service is being promoted.
Awareness is great and all but not many people are looking to be more aware, we are looking for practical solutions, none of which are being offered with all the attention goes to idolizing a child.