Article conflates digital nomadism with remote working in general.
Remote work allows you to work from a space you control, eliminate commute and allows you to be able to walk around to clear your head without feeling guilty for not being in your seat.
You could use it to travel, but I figure that would be a harder lifestyle and is not synonymous with “remote work”.
The author did try working from home but the damage to his mental health had been done I guess. I have the benefit of using IRC for the majority of my social interaction for the better part of my life. I guess the author is missing face-to-face contact already by that point though.
Also, I did something similar to what the author did, took a one way flight to Helsinki from my home town Coventry in the UK.
No friends, no family, no support structure. Only the promise of a job. It was some of the best time in my life. I was able to live as I wanted to live and present myself as me without any baggage holding me back. It was wonderful.
Although, I did make more of an effort to really meet people- I went to pubs in Helsinki and spoke to locals and asked about their history and language and despite what you hear about the Finns; the ones I met were truly very friendly.
All I’m saying is that: “your experience may vary”
When I had an office as a graduate student and then consultant, adjunct faculty, and other positions, I was almost never in my office.
I simply could not focus on work there the same way as elsewhere. I'm a highly social extrovert and in order to get things done that don't involve directly interacting with people, I "introvert myself". If someone comes to chat with me they snap me out of that mode and it's almost impossible for me to get back in.
I find libraries, coffee shops, empty offices to be the best places for me.
But remote != digital nomadism despite the 2 being able to go together.
Agreed re conflating. I predominantly work from home, out of a custom built office in the corner of my garden. I tend to get up early and spend a few hours goofing around with the family before starting work. I take short breaks throughout the day to play with my son, eat lunch with my wife or go for a stroll. I also tend to go in the company's office on average once a week to get my dose of water cooler chats and group pizzas. This setup is a near-perfect fit for me in terms of productivity, work-life balance and mental health.
> Article conflates digital nomadism with remote working in general.
Only a small part in the beginning of the article is concerned with digital nomadism. Most of the article is about working from home, and the general effects of isolation.
Only the first few paragraphs talk about digital nomadism, after that he says
"The obvious alternative to traveling the world while working, is working from home. But that can be equally isolating in its own way." after which most of the article is about regular remote working
It's very possible to become isolated working remotely even in a familiar city, especially for introverted people. It's far easier to say "hey let's grab drinks after work" when I'd need to commute home from the office vs. when I'm already at home, with Netflix and Seamless mere inches away... and this becomes a very slippery slope. A week can go by with limited human interaction. And that's rarely a good thing.
This article isn't about remote work, but being a social hermit.
In my experience, if you have difficulty making and sustaining friendships without the heightened social context of a dorm floor/office water cooler, then you're going to wind up experiencing a bit of cabin fever when you are removed from those environments.
I had to make conscious efforts to go out, make friends and do things outside work when I moved away and lived on my own. You're responsible for your own mental health, not your company.
I have no trouble making and sustaining friendships with or without an office, in fact only one of my (former) co-workers is an actual friend.
Regardless, something about the isolation of working from home for anything more than a day here or there is just too mentally harmful for me. A much lesser form of solitary confinement, I suppose. Even going out and doing things after work every single day is no cure. I've tried it on and off over the past decade, with and without a co-habitating girlfriend. With and without pets. I've tried working from coffee shops, working from parks, co-working spaces, etc.
For some it's not a matter of needing the office for friends, some people just need the office environment itself. Something about being there "in the shit" with your team, best I can tell, rings that mental bell.
In an office, I can intersperse social contact with programming. And the socializing requires almost no effort, since there is more common ground (job, commute, lunch, etc)
At home, I'm isolated for 8-10 hours straight. By dinner time, I'm mentally exhausted, making it harder to drum up energy to go out and meet new people.
This applies most if you're a single-ish young-ish person without a highly established personal life outside of work. IMO this is a good message to put out since that's a lot of the crowd being recruited for these positions. When you're in that spot in life you're trying to "figure it out", and the message that you'd be free of any ties to a physical office is pushed very romantically and can be very confusing for establishing an overall life for yourself. It's helpful to know the other side of the coin so young prospective employees can make the choice that's best for both employee and employer.
Whoa digital nomads by definition choose loneliness, whether they work or not.
As for the rest , i think the answer is pretty obvious: coworking apartment complexes similar to those dorm rooms but for adults. We need such spaces anyway , with the rise of people living alone and aging alone. It s time for cities to adapt to our needs rather than the reverse for once, because remote working is not going away. Its good for workers, good for business, good for the environment, good for competition, bad for visas and bad for rent seekers.
I lived in one of these in Seattle for a few months. The weird part is, nobody really used the communal areas. The facilities weren't amazing in the first place but I met 1 person in the building the entire time I lived there. We even had a shared kitchen I only saw someone make some Top Ramen on the stove top once.
i wouldn't want a shared kitchen or bathroom - besides why would anyone want to live in such cramped conditions if they work remotely. But i d like it if my building had a shared coworking space a cafeteria and perhaps other commercial perks (such as gym) to use frequently - preferably with other remote workers. I know it's possible to share each of these individually, but this happens effortlessly when many people in similar situations are in physical proximity with them.
Solitude, "time alone with ones thoughts" or personal time is not everyones cup of tea, but depending on the individual, if thats your wheelhouse, the lack of distractions is priceless in regards to productivity.
I bet he is right that its harder for younger people. Having a family means having a routine built-in, you take your kids to school and go pick them up always at the same hour, play a bit, make dinner, bedtime, etc.
For younger people, maybe going to the gym almost every day? I bet that there are shared workspaces with people in the same situation in a lot of large cities at least.
As a young person working remotely, I just realized the value of that this week; breaking up my workday at the climbing gym has helped me feel less isolated. I enjoy my solitude, but I still need to socialize during work hours somehow. While there aren’t many people at my climbing gym around noon, those who are there also seem open to chatting or being a climbing partner.
There is also a cafe upstairs which is convenient for lunch and the second half of the workday.
Personally I have had a very different experience since I left to travel and work remotely a few years ago.
I was already working remotely and yes at the time I was struggling with depression and loneliness. Given what I have experienced since I don't think remote work was at all the cause of my problems which were much deeper seated.
Leaving all of that behind and living out of a suitcase changed a lot of my perspectives on what I valued in life.
I was by no means obsessed with material possessions before but enforcing a life of minimalism brought me understanding of what things actually make my life better vs just cost money and take up space. I had to think more critically about how I want to spend my time each day as oftentimes I had limited time in each place and with each set of people I had been lucky enough to meet. This meant I pushed myself to go out and spend quality time doing things I enjoyed and with people I liked because by putting smaller finite timelines on things I was motivated to do them.
I still have friends I just don't see them in person as much. Often times people would be travelling through the region and I would simply pack up and go hang out with them - this was awesome and I have done it many times over the last couple of years. I treasure all of these memories and hanging out at a bar after work can never compare.
This lifestyle has been amazing for me and has allowed me to climb out of a very dark place personally. I still suffer from depression - I probably always will. However I think this lifestyle has offered me better tools to deal with it.
Things that are hard though:
- Timezones
- Building professional relationships
- Keeping in shape
- Jetlag
Those are constant battles but compared to my personal demons easily managed. :)
If anyone is thinking of taking the plunge I highly recommend it. You don't have much to lose, you can always go back home but it just could change your life.
I am a fully remote worker nowhere near my "office", which is simply where our company is technically HQd.
I have never met my boss or any of my coworkers in person.
I do highly technical work, on a team that only hires very senior developers who have prior remote work experience.
And I can say, it is NOT for everyone.
If you do not have a life out of work, if you live alone, if you do not have a good network of real friends and/or family, or what you would consider an area "home", that's a problem.
My problem? I have almost all of those issues at the moment. I do have a work/life balance, but I don't do much with the "life" part. My close friends have scattered as they got older, had kids, moved around to different states for work, and I didn't put effort into finding new ones.
I can live wherever I want, but I don't know where I want to live! I can even move to Europe as I am a dual US/Irish citizen, but I don't know where I would want to go in Europe!
I have lived in so many states in my life already, I don't have a "home" really, so that's an issue also.
It seems great, but it comes with drawbacks. I'm working on them, while working on work.
Choose some hobbies and find some local community supporting them. Engage in lessons around them, or offer lessons yourself. It doesn't matter where, but do not wait for things to happen, make them happen.
I'd love to see more around helping people choose hobbies. My problem is finding ones I can sink my teeth into and be passionate about. But coming across those is finding a needle in a haystack.
While not always considered a hobby, I think social groups are forming around group exercise more often now. It's healthy, you get a little shared suffering in, and you meet a whole cross section of your community you may not meet otherwise.
I think you're conflating the migrant issue with the remote worker issue.
Migrants have most of the issues you talk about; they're not close to their family networks, don't particularly feel that their current location is home, and where they came from certainly isn't home either.
I did remote work from my home town for a few years, for a US company. The biggest issues for me were not being plugged in to the internal politics of the company - water-cooler conversations and occasional chats after a few drinks don't happen; and not developing a network of local engineers who moved on to other companies, somewhat limiting my career options.
I've since moved out of my home country, and work in the office. I have a different set of problems also in common with what you list, specific to migration.
Just because you have family around doesn't mean you see them every week.
This becomes a huge problem if you don't get any social contact at work, even if you don't thrive in that environment I'd say that it is a necessity for the vast majority of people.
I've been traveling a lot lately to figure out whether I'd want to move. Currently in Denmark which is great in all sorts of ways except the weather. I really hope I can move to South Europe at some point.
Unfortunately I don't work remote, but if I did, I'd just cancel my apartment lease, put my things in storage and travel around the world and live out of hotels for a year to find out what I want.
I started remote-working in 2016 and, for the first year, I pretty much did what you're saying. After moving around, I settled back in London (I'm not originally from the UK) for its professional environment. Working remotely makes it difficult to maintain professional network, but that gets easier if you live in a busy city -- frequent events and opportunities to network, but more importantly, a higher density of people working in your field. I still spend quite a bit of time outside of the UK (especially in the winter months), but as a "home" or HQ, I'll still pick the busier city. It's also not that bad when you don't need to commute and you find a neighbourhood with enough of a community culture. I really don't get as stressed as I used to be when I had to take the tube every weekday.
I tried this but it didn't work for me. was very lonely. travel gets old quick for me. The 7th church and 14th museum is just not that interesting. Traveling once in a while works better for me.
The ideal remote work situation to me would revolve around the ability to travel, want to go to Hawaii for two weeks? No big deal. People who talk about using a remote job to move to X city seem a bit detached from reality in my opinion.
As someone who has this flexibility, it's expensive and not that fun to go work in a hotel in a strange city for a couple weeks. I'd rather have a week off to ignore work and immerse myself
I've done this, and it isn't great. It's not quite the "vacation" type experience you'd think it is.
You still have to do work. So yes, you can fly to Hawaii for two weeks, pay for flights, hotel bills, meals, none of which are reimbursed because these are not corporate expenses we're talking about.
And then you stay in the hotel or somewhere else plugged in for a long time to do the actual work they are paying you for.
And then maybe go do something in Hawaii for a few hours.
shrug each to their own, i really enjoy going to another city and grabbing an airbnb for a couple weeks. Work at coffee shops overlooking the ocean, grab lunch somewhere, explore some sites, checkout hawaii, then get some work done in the evening.
It's definitely not the same experience off taking a week off, which i also enjoy but usually reserve for camping/backcountry trips.
This hasn't been my experience. You just need something worthwhile to do. I love to surf and play traditional Irish music. So I took a month long trip alone to Ireland in the winter time / off season. Spent every day surfing, cooking, playing music in the pubs, and working. I had a blast. Figure out how to get the most out of someplace and go somewhere that's meaningful to you. Post up in one spot that's quiet and where you can focus and you'll likely have a good time.
Some of my personal anecdotes going through the exact same circumstances (I'm also currently applying for dual US/Irish citizenship):
1) I hate working out. I don't want to do it. But when I do, I feel momentously better afterwards. I have not worked out consistently in the last 12 mo.
2) I hate cooking and cleaning up after cooking. I don't want to do it. But when I do, I feel better afterwards. I have not done significant amounts of home cooking in the last 12 mo.
3) Despite being a severely introverted individual I've become the person to push for more outings within my (small) social group. And I feel better afterwards.
4) I've gained about ~20 lbs in the last 12 mo.
5) I am tremendously comfortable with my current remote work and decent salary but I am not at all happy in a general sense
6) I worry my career is stagnating as I near my 2 year mark in this role. Hearing about the salaries my colleagues are getting at other companies contributes to
7) I've been using Tinder for casual dating. Recently I realized I really, really, don't want to use a Match Group product as the cornerstone of my dating life so now I'm trying to do it in more "natural" ways, but due to the above I find myself not being a great candidate.
Overall, working remotely has contributed greatly to a sense of depression and anxiety I carry almost every day. However I've been dealing with it long enough that I think I have a good sense of it, I'm doing better these past few months then the rest of the year combined and have clear goals (like the working out) that will help me do better.
I hope these points aren't too candid, I just figured many in this community could be going through the same things and hearing a shared story would help.
The only real piece of advice I have for changing those things is committing to it. Losing weight is a good place to start, it has easily observable results and you can go at your own pace. I lost 20kg in 6mo when I started travelling, it was my first "change my life" goal and it made it a lot easier to start on other things that I hoped would be beneficial for me long-term - like finally starting on getting my teeth fixed despite my fear of dentists.
I know it's easier said than done, but you can't rely on work alone to make you happy. You have to take that task on yourself. I would even go so far to say you shouldn't even rely on your spouse to make you happy. They should complement you.
I would also say that you have to embrace the biggest benefit of remote work - personal agency. Most remote workers I know (myself included) can for the most part work when we want to work. I can workout at 10am or go train BJJ at 9:30am. Instead of having to shape my day around work, I can shape work around my day. The personal agency aspect is the biggest benefit for me, and one that I would be hard pressed to ever give up at this point.
BTW, working from home should make it much easier to maintain the weight you want since healthy food options should be easier at home. WFH means I can throw some chicken and veggies on the grill at lunch for a healthy and cheap meal.
This is exactly why i will never work in an office again.
- I wake up when i want (thou without fail earlier then when i had a commute to dread)
- i can make a nice coffee/breakfast while getting some work done
- i work out every day, sometimes multiple times because i can pop to a class by my home whenever i want
- i often take days off to climb or snowboard/shift my work into the evening
- seeing friends is easier than ever as i can be social on their schedule
- i don't always take vacation to travel and explore as i can work from anywhere
- assuming a generously short commute of 30 min plus 15 min to get ready/unpack on either end thats at least 1.5 hours a day back to do whatever i want with
I am the OP on this thread, and I totally agree with you (and almost everyone else who has replied).
There are massive perks to working remotely and I will never (hopefully), ever have to work in an office and commute again.
You have to be extremely disciplined, and have a company that knows how to set requirements properly.
If you have that, and you know exactly what needs to be done, and when it needs to be done by, then you are set.
Do it, and then do whatever else you want. Wake up whenever, take a 3 hour lunch break, it doesn't matter.
I worked 4 hours this Sunday AM because I had nothing else to do and I wanted to get progress done on my current task.
This is the proper way to work, especially so for software engineers, where everything can be done 100% the same remotely as it can be done in an office.
I'm not saying you're wrong, but you can get these benefits from a FAANG-type company (though like you said, presuming a short commute). I'm personally planning to do working holidays in other countries every so often.
And that's obviously your choice. I personally chose this path since I'm at the beginning of my career - maybe I'll give remote working a shot one day! However, nothing seems worse to me right now than mixing home and work life. Physically separating them gives me a mental barrier between them.
BTW, commutes aren't 'fun', but it gives me a chance to read/reply to my emails, plan my day, or do some reading, so on balance I do save non-negligible time.
I deeply agree, but dynamic scheduling can have a strong negative affect of causing you to always stay in "work-mode". If I spend my mornings doing errands, cooking, or hitting the gym, I may end up working well into the evening up to the point just before I fall asleep. Or more likely, I shave hours from my "work-week" working about 6 hours a day, and find myself working throughout the weekend without any "mental rest".
I think humans have always struggled with finding ways to be happy in whatever circumstances they are provided, and remote work and the new global economy are going to force us (through some struggle) to figure out the best ways for ourselves to get on.
Ultimately as I mention in my original post it's about self-discipline and structure to do what you know will make you happy, but strangely that can be pretty hard.
You're not alone here. Pretty much the same boat. USA-ian in a different country working remotely. Going on ~5 years now.
I can definitely echo the sentiments about gaining weight, working out, cooking, and depression and anxiety. I've got a grasp on the issues, and I could probably "make it work" for a while longer, but I'm old enough and at a point in my career where "make it work" is a lazy cop-out; I can afford to push for "good" or even "great", and feel like I should. But long term remote work just kills inertia.
Working out: If possible I highly advise finding a workout partner. I lift weights with a (now-ex) co-worker, and it makes the workout significantly more enjoyable, and provides motivation to keep me going, even on days he can't make it (don't want to fall behind!).
Alternatively, consider a class. A dance class can be great for both 1 & 7 (note: don't be that guy who hits on every woman in your class, no one likes that guy), but it could be anything, martial arts, gymnastics/ninja warrior, racketball, etc.
Me too, having moved half way across Canada to get a bit of a quieter home, far from where cost of living was spiralling out of control. (Vancouver BC - and it is for everyone there, pretty much).
Oh I have a family and have set up house, and that helps a lot. I'm still finding community and roots and trying to remember what I like doing when not working .. but I already know I like working with hands so that helps direct me some already.
so I'm slowly teaching child sewing (as I slowly remember how to, myself).
Man, so much of what you write resonates with me, and quite much matches some of my current questions or ponderings.
I would love to be able to meet a few people in similar situations around a bonfire, and chat like friends. Perhaps we'd come away with some insights; otherwise, we'd have at least enjoyed the company of a few new friends and some warm fire light.
I've been full-time remote for my entire software development career and have happily taken advantage of it for occasional travels and such, but for the most part live in one place and love the community that I've plugged into. Finding a place where I'm surrounded every workday by people that I get along with rather than sitting at home with my dog and my computer has been totally integral to that.
Wait, a coworking center is a place you share with people who aren't your actual coworkers because you wanted to work remotely? Man, this new economy is out of sync.
I get that you're being flippant, but yeah, it does sound a little strange at first blush: work remotely, but without working from home?
The secret is that spending all your time alone actually sucks for a lot of people (and for those whom it doesn't, great! Working from home may serve you well).
It so happens that coworking strikes a good balance for many of us. My location and that of my employer are fully decoupled, and my coworkers don't have any overlapping office politics. When I change jobs, I don't stop seeing my friends. It's pretty ideal.
> I can live wherever I want, but I don't know where I want to live! I can even move to Europe as I am a dual US/Irish citizen, but I don't know where I would want to go in Europe!
I'm in a very similar situation.
I can work from basically anywhere. For the first year of fully remote work, I moved all over my country. During the second year, I went abroad and spend 3ish months in several nearby countries.
Now I'm entering year 3 and I'm miserable. Having freedom to live anywhere makes the place I choose feel like it's "wrong" in some way.
Let me attempt to draw you a pyramid of home location needs:
5. Political situation - not a warzone? Not under sharia? Very democratic, or key to world issues you consider important?
4. Climate - no tundra/sahara? Would you benefit from living near the sea?
3. Food - is the local food edible? Is the local food cheap, including the restaurants? Or is it just very good?
2. Access to nature - do you want to try mountain ranges? Forests? A kind of people you like having around? If I feel disconnected from the city, I just use the public utilities more: coffee, beer, parks and benches for reading on. Not quite collecting mushrooms in the forest but I'm getting there.
1. Culture and language - any cultures you want to learn about? New languages? What would bring your personal and professional development in harmony?
Good luck!
P.S.: The Netherlands are decent. Everything is very "duidelijk", clear, and direct. People don't mind speaking English and speak it well. Weather is mild, can be a bit rainy but not half as bad as Britain. Housing aplenty for a programmer's salary. Consider visiting for a week or so if it peaks your interest.
> I can live wherever I want, but I don't know where I want to live!
May I suggest picking up a outdoor hobby and living near a place that enables it.
Since winter is coming up. How about skiing and colorado. I promise you mountains will lift your sprits up, life problems seem so meaningless in mighty mountains.
> May I suggest picking up a outdoor hobby and living near a place that enables it.
OP here ... I used to be a competitive snowboarder, but that was many years ago.
Now I am pretty out of shape from sitting in front of computers for decades, but that's my own fault for not taking care of myself. It is funny you mention this though, because I currently live about 20 minutes from a ski resort and was thinking about a season pass to get back into it.
Have you ever considered that if you move to some less developed parts of EU, while retaining your salary (and likely reducing taxes), you can basically retire in several years? This is something most people in the world would dream of.
If you can’t handle working remote, I’ll happily take your position. I don’t need lip service from coworkers to be a happy person. Don’t let your happiness depend on others, you will surely be disappointed.
"the ambitious side that’s never satisfied with the way that things are and the human side that wants to be content and happy" I found this line very relatable -- as with almost everything in life, balance is key. You would think we would know this by now, but it's usually the first thing to suffer. Anyways, I think it's great these topics are brought to the forefront -- instead of being siloed and almost taboo to talk about openly. We're surprisingly closed minded when it comes to mental health issues...
I don't really see why people keep trying to "defend" remote working looking for optimizations in a practice which is fundamentally broken. At what point in our evolutionary history do you think the human animal, which evolved as a pack hunter in a highly socialized environment, was designed to work from home 40 hrs a week? We should be focusing on creating more flexible office environments for our workers where they can come in and work with their coworkers regularly
I think you are right, that it's going to take many years before we realize that remote work is on the same level as the open office: sounds great in theory but actually counterproductive when it comes down to the practicalities.
We should also accept that people are very different. I know people who prefer to go to the office whereas people like myself prefer working from home. My ideal situation would probably be a small office close to my home where I can work with a few people. Large offices are definitely not for me. I find them very stressful. But other people find them energizing. So we should accept that people are different and see how to accommodate all working styles.
We weren't "designed" to work in offices either. Or use computers. Yet we do it, because while these may bring troubles for going against our "design", they also come with advantages.
Our modern lifestyle is extremely different from the lifestyles that shaped our evolution over millennia. You can't just pick and choose to what aspects you apply the naturalistic argument.
At all time in history before the industrial revolution? You worked at home, which was right next to your field, or in front of /under your home. Commuting to work wasn't even an option ; usually only merchants traveled.
The weird situation is when you have to move away from your family in unfamiliar cramped apartments just so you can work in a factory nearby and perhaps send them back money. It's not "normal", it's rather abnormal but cities have adapted to this abnormal situation. The trend to economies becoming 100% services is helping to bring people back to ancient normality.
> We should be focusing on creating more flexible office environments
No we should be working to make residential areas more social and turn them to mixed residential/commercial, just how it used to be (and still is in most of europe). Offices are a relic.
This is actually going to happen spontaneously as soon as everyone has 4-5 neighbors who also work from home. It's a matter of time
I did work remotely for around 5 years and I loved it.
No surprise to me but most people need a village to be happy. That means having neighbours, familiar strangers, a regular routine and social bonds between all of those things. Remote work doesn't isolate you from the village.
I think it should be the predominant way of working. It can encourage villages and less commutes. When I worked remotely I found an office in a co-working space. I made friends with other people who worked in that space. I could walk, bike, or take public transit to the space. I had a mix of friends, acquaintances, familiar strangers, and strangers throughout my day.
It's better for the environment and for people.
I also know people who sail around the world and live a nomadic lifestyle. They all face the same difficulties with mental health: they need a village. The ones who manage to stick it out build a village around their lifestyle. However it's always a risk and one that should be planned for.
I started a company in 2008 where all the founders were remote. We didn’t force location on anyone but gradually we settled on three offices where gatherings took place and people who were local would check in. Eventually the company developed a unique office culture in each and you generally identified as belonging to one or the other. I liked the way it developed because we didn’t enforce a set of rules, we let people be adults. The ones you knew that were more preoccupied with marathon training rather than getting things done worked their way out of the company pretty quickly anyway — usually they were so detached, forcing them into an office wouldn’t have mattered. As for me, I lean remote especially when I need to stay focused. But I do like the ability to see a new office and be a part of a larger in-person community.
I've been working remotely for almost a decade, and never have I experienced, or had coworkers who experience the isolation and troubles that I'm starting to hear about. But I am now realizing that we also don't define ourselves by our work. We do have families, lives, friends, and hobbies. We are quite busy people with full lives, who happen to sit down for a chunk of each day and do our work.
Maybe that is the key - go figure out who you are, build up your life, and only then start working remotely.
> "Remote workers shouldn’t feel like they have to travel to lead interesting, fulfilled lives. It’s ok to prioritize friendships, community, and your mental health over traveling. It may not look as glamorous on Instagram, but you may end up a lot happier for it"
It's always enriching to read personal perspective from people that live on a bubble different than mine.
I want to start working remotely to be able to avoid commutes and to have more flexibility on how I manage my time during the day. It never crossed my mind that I should be traveling.
I would phrase that it is not ok to not prioritize friendships and mental health over traveling.
But different bubbles offer different peer pressures. It is good to know about them in order to also understand my own bubble better
There is really no reason why you cannot have a vibrant social life as a remote worker, or as a digital nomad. The latter is much harder but it's a choice that people make and I would assume they make it knowingly.
I think this is a dangerous assumption, and why OP wrote the article. People often make choices based on assumptions and bad information. Like not knowing that they need a vibrant social life to feel well, because they simply never lacked one.
As a remote worker myself, I agree with most of the points in the article. I lived on my own right out of school and it was a blessing and a curse. It forced me to go out and be social which brought me out of my comfort zone at first.
> I’ve never worked from a real office or even had a “real” job
I really think that a precursor to working remote should be working in an office. I always advise against younger workers to go remote early in their career. There's a huge benefit to being in the office when you're young and have much to learn in your field. Once you've been in the industry for a few years I think it's much easier to switch to a remote lifestyle.
As far as the loneliness of remote work...my 100% remote company is taking a slightly different approach to solve this problem. The more we spoke with other remote workers in coworking spaces, coffee shops, etc...the more we realized that people work in those spaces to get the feeling of human interaction, whether or not they actually talk to people while they're out working.
What we started doing is hosting these "Work Clubs" where we get 5-6 remote workers together at a table at a coffee shop and we all work together for a couple of hours. It's not a networking event, but more of a casual way to meet people while you get your work done. It gets you out of the house and around other people and we got such good feedback from other remote workers that we're looking to help others hold their own work clubs wherever they work.
We're currently hosting work clubs in San Francisco, San Diego, and Portland, and hoping to grow. If you're interested you can find out more at https://outofoffice.app/workclub/remote
For me the big lesson is it is possible to structure an environment for "accidental sociability" - the most obvious one being individual rooms in a shared house - but there are plenty of other examples
- and this is something I suspect that happier more productive socities as well as companies will embrace
There are a lot of very, very good points in this article, but I can’t help disagreeing with the opening, in which the author talks about (or at least quotes Seneca on) the impossibility of making meaningful connections while living abroad and moving around.
Moving out of my home country and forcing myself to get comfortable meeting strangers was not only the most important thing I’ve done for myself, but gave me a handful of incredibly close friends I didn’t have before, and I was happily working remotely for a company in another country during that time.
It’s not for everyone, but don’t let this article dissuade you from trying it, if you can. Meeting people from all over the world, and learning a new language, all while working remotely was life changing in a way I didn’t think possible.
I hear you and agree and disagree. I've definitely had my life changed by moving/traveling abroad. At the same time, I just kept going and going and now I've spread myself too thin and have acquaintanceships all over.
Can anyone who’s remote but in a non-engineering role share there experiences?
I’ve always wondered how a highly social job like a Product Manager, or Salesperson could possibly work remotely when you need to have a ton of meetings and face to face contact
I have decades worth of remote work experience. I don't think the problem is social isolation, as others point out that's another issue, you can experience isolation (alienation) regardless of your work situation.
But if you want to be more than a gear on a team, the main decision making and insight is often strictly between local workers, regardless of what gets said in meetings it's the water cooler or after work beers. If all the decision makers are in one place and you're not there, you're missing a lot of context. A few key in-person meetings as required goes a long way to mitigate this, but for organizations that see cost savings as a main benefit to remote workers this may be difficult to arrange.
I totally agree with you. I like all-remote teams. I’m wary of teams that are part remote and part collocated, especially when the leaders are part of Team Collocated and I’m not.
> Openly acknowledging that there can be serious mental health issues related to remote work. People are not alone in these struggles, and there’s nothing “wrong” with feeling anxious or depressed.
> Encouraging people to use sick days for mental health when they need them.
It's nice that a company actually cares, but I feel there's a way to push this too far... Like not everything is a "mental health issue". You feel sad, unmotivated, anxious about your future some days? Well everyone does, it's called being human (and not a psychopath)! I sometimes get the feeling that by encouraging indulging in these (often ephemeral, fleeting) feelings encourages a victim mentality of helplessness and doom... maybe we should be encouraging resilience instead (not in the "be strong suppress your feelings" kind of way, just as a middle ground).
This isn't what accepting that you have mental health issues look like. This is what happens when you don't have support to handle your mental health in helpful ways.
In the Netherlands some/many people work 40 hours on a 36 hour contract, resulting in almost 10 weeks of paid vacation as well. It's worth a lot to me.
30 days here in brazil per year. No theoretical limits on sick days as long as you're really sick, but after 15 days in the hospital, the government pays you instead of your company (at a progressively reduced scale, of course, if you make lots of money, it is just fair that the government should need to help you less than someone who makes minimum wages).
One thing which is important to clarify is that in Brazil, once you take your vacation, it gets "spent" during the whole period that you are off, including weekends and eventual holidays.
In Europe (or at least a good part of it) vacation is "spent" only on workdays, not weekends or holidays (which is fairer, you wouldn't be working on these days).
So in Sweden, where you get 25 days compared to Brazil's 30, you actually get roughly one week more vacation per year. This is not evident at a first glance just by comparing numbers.
This is super strange. Does Brazil force people to take vacation contiguously? What prevents one from taking Monday-Friday off and then the next Monday-Friday off? What if you want to take Thursday and Friday off and then spend the weekend vacationing - how many vacation days does that take?
It "works" because, legally speaking, it's the employer who decides when you can take vacation. Apart from some edge cases, the employer has the option to give your full vacation in one go but it also has the option to give it to you in two different periods (at most). No period may be smaller than 10 days. They have to notify you of your vacation period at least 30 days in advance.
In practice it really depends where you work.
In some jobs you will have a lot of latitude, and the employer will let you freely choose and only veto it if it's really disruptive (like everybody else in the team leaving at the same time). This is what I had experienced, working in IT.
I suspect that in some lines of work, like the service industry, you might be totally out of luck and have zero choice on the matter.
Given that teachers with summer break I doubt it in itself. Although that level of generosity usually has a cost, perhaps logistical passed on or factored in.
Like expecting longer "on hours" or a bit lower pay in exchange for the benefits. Of course as always it could be circumstances which give it cheaper or "free" like if there are down times where there isn't much meaningful work available.
UK here, I get 25 days of annual leave, plus another 4 mandatory days at Christmas and New Year, making a total of 29 days. I think 28 days is the legal minimum for a full-time employee, and it's very rare for companies to offer more than they have to.
In Sweden we have 25 paid days off, and we get 30 days at my job (in addition to regular holiday days). On top of that we have a ridiculous number of parental leave days (if you have kids).
I realize I got an above average offer, but as a new grad I'll be getting 25 days a year starting out, up to 30 days after 5 years with the company. Not a FAANG company but a tech company backed by a Fortune 500 company.
I’ve been working remotely for about 2-3 years now but due to a new job I will be working at an office now starting tomorrow.
It is a terrifying feeling to say the least. I am trying to be optimistic and hope to get over it quick.
Working remotely have been amazing and was a life changing experience for me. It was good in that I got to see the world as it is for the first time. Being able to drive out or walk around the town at any time or anywhere is the most liberating feeling you can have. Prior, I was working in office for over 8 years so I had no idea there was a bustling world outside of the office.
So yeah it is scary to be going back but I am going with the mindset that being able to socialize will be worth the trade off.
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[ 2.8 ms ] story [ 180 ms ] threadRemote work allows you to work from a space you control, eliminate commute and allows you to be able to walk around to clear your head without feeling guilty for not being in your seat.
You could use it to travel, but I figure that would be a harder lifestyle and is not synonymous with “remote work”.
The author did try working from home but the damage to his mental health had been done I guess. I have the benefit of using IRC for the majority of my social interaction for the better part of my life. I guess the author is missing face-to-face contact already by that point though.
Also, I did something similar to what the author did, took a one way flight to Helsinki from my home town Coventry in the UK.
No friends, no family, no support structure. Only the promise of a job. It was some of the best time in my life. I was able to live as I wanted to live and present myself as me without any baggage holding me back. It was wonderful.
Although, I did make more of an effort to really meet people- I went to pubs in Helsinki and spoke to locals and asked about their history and language and despite what you hear about the Finns; the ones I met were truly very friendly.
All I’m saying is that: “your experience may vary”
When I had an office as a graduate student and then consultant, adjunct faculty, and other positions, I was almost never in my office.
I simply could not focus on work there the same way as elsewhere. I'm a highly social extrovert and in order to get things done that don't involve directly interacting with people, I "introvert myself". If someone comes to chat with me they snap me out of that mode and it's almost impossible for me to get back in.
I find libraries, coffee shops, empty offices to be the best places for me.
But remote != digital nomadism despite the 2 being able to go together.
Only a small part in the beginning of the article is concerned with digital nomadism. Most of the article is about working from home, and the general effects of isolation.
In my experience, if you have difficulty making and sustaining friendships without the heightened social context of a dorm floor/office water cooler, then you're going to wind up experiencing a bit of cabin fever when you are removed from those environments.
I had to make conscious efforts to go out, make friends and do things outside work when I moved away and lived on my own. You're responsible for your own mental health, not your company.
Regardless, something about the isolation of working from home for anything more than a day here or there is just too mentally harmful for me. A much lesser form of solitary confinement, I suppose. Even going out and doing things after work every single day is no cure. I've tried it on and off over the past decade, with and without a co-habitating girlfriend. With and without pets. I've tried working from coffee shops, working from parks, co-working spaces, etc.
For some it's not a matter of needing the office for friends, some people just need the office environment itself. Something about being there "in the shit" with your team, best I can tell, rings that mental bell.
At home, I'm isolated for 8-10 hours straight. By dinner time, I'm mentally exhausted, making it harder to drum up energy to go out and meet new people.
Whoa digital nomads by definition choose loneliness, whether they work or not.
As for the rest , i think the answer is pretty obvious: coworking apartment complexes similar to those dorm rooms but for adults. We need such spaces anyway , with the rise of people living alone and aging alone. It s time for cities to adapt to our needs rather than the reverse for once, because remote working is not going away. Its good for workers, good for business, good for the environment, good for competition, bad for visas and bad for rent seekers.
"Alone" != "Lonely"
https://doist.com/blog/asynchronous-communication/
Solitude, "time alone with ones thoughts" or personal time is not everyones cup of tea, but depending on the individual, if thats your wheelhouse, the lack of distractions is priceless in regards to productivity.
For younger people, maybe going to the gym almost every day? I bet that there are shared workspaces with people in the same situation in a lot of large cities at least.
There is also a cafe upstairs which is convenient for lunch and the second half of the workday.
I was already working remotely and yes at the time I was struggling with depression and loneliness. Given what I have experienced since I don't think remote work was at all the cause of my problems which were much deeper seated.
Leaving all of that behind and living out of a suitcase changed a lot of my perspectives on what I valued in life. I was by no means obsessed with material possessions before but enforcing a life of minimalism brought me understanding of what things actually make my life better vs just cost money and take up space. I had to think more critically about how I want to spend my time each day as oftentimes I had limited time in each place and with each set of people I had been lucky enough to meet. This meant I pushed myself to go out and spend quality time doing things I enjoyed and with people I liked because by putting smaller finite timelines on things I was motivated to do them.
I still have friends I just don't see them in person as much. Often times people would be travelling through the region and I would simply pack up and go hang out with them - this was awesome and I have done it many times over the last couple of years. I treasure all of these memories and hanging out at a bar after work can never compare.
This lifestyle has been amazing for me and has allowed me to climb out of a very dark place personally. I still suffer from depression - I probably always will. However I think this lifestyle has offered me better tools to deal with it.
Things that are hard though:
- Timezones
- Building professional relationships
- Keeping in shape
- Jetlag
Those are constant battles but compared to my personal demons easily managed. :)
If anyone is thinking of taking the plunge I highly recommend it. You don't have much to lose, you can always go back home but it just could change your life.
I’m wondering if OP knew the local language or made an effort to, and the lack thereof could be the explanation for social isolation
I have never met my boss or any of my coworkers in person.
I do highly technical work, on a team that only hires very senior developers who have prior remote work experience.
And I can say, it is NOT for everyone.
If you do not have a life out of work, if you live alone, if you do not have a good network of real friends and/or family, or what you would consider an area "home", that's a problem.
My problem? I have almost all of those issues at the moment. I do have a work/life balance, but I don't do much with the "life" part. My close friends have scattered as they got older, had kids, moved around to different states for work, and I didn't put effort into finding new ones.
I can live wherever I want, but I don't know where I want to live! I can even move to Europe as I am a dual US/Irish citizen, but I don't know where I would want to go in Europe!
I have lived in so many states in my life already, I don't have a "home" really, so that's an issue also.
It seems great, but it comes with drawbacks. I'm working on them, while working on work.
Migrants have most of the issues you talk about; they're not close to their family networks, don't particularly feel that their current location is home, and where they came from certainly isn't home either.
I did remote work from my home town for a few years, for a US company. The biggest issues for me were not being plugged in to the internal politics of the company - water-cooler conversations and occasional chats after a few drinks don't happen; and not developing a network of local engineers who moved on to other companies, somewhat limiting my career options.
I've since moved out of my home country, and work in the office. I have a different set of problems also in common with what you list, specific to migration.
Just because you have family around doesn't mean you see them every week.
This becomes a huge problem if you don't get any social contact at work, even if you don't thrive in that environment I'd say that it is a necessity for the vast majority of people.
Even for introverts that thrive alone.
I know enough people without any family left or only one person left with relatives without a bond.
Unfortunately I don't work remote, but if I did, I'd just cancel my apartment lease, put my things in storage and travel around the world and live out of hotels for a year to find out what I want.
I also didn't find out what I want.
Everyone is different so I hope it works for you.
You still have to do work. So yes, you can fly to Hawaii for two weeks, pay for flights, hotel bills, meals, none of which are reimbursed because these are not corporate expenses we're talking about.
And then you stay in the hotel or somewhere else plugged in for a long time to do the actual work they are paying you for.
And then maybe go do something in Hawaii for a few hours.
It's definitely not the same experience off taking a week off, which i also enjoy but usually reserve for camping/backcountry trips.
Some of my personal anecdotes going through the exact same circumstances (I'm also currently applying for dual US/Irish citizenship):
1) I hate working out. I don't want to do it. But when I do, I feel momentously better afterwards. I have not worked out consistently in the last 12 mo.
2) I hate cooking and cleaning up after cooking. I don't want to do it. But when I do, I feel better afterwards. I have not done significant amounts of home cooking in the last 12 mo.
3) Despite being a severely introverted individual I've become the person to push for more outings within my (small) social group. And I feel better afterwards.
4) I've gained about ~20 lbs in the last 12 mo.
5) I am tremendously comfortable with my current remote work and decent salary but I am not at all happy in a general sense
6) I worry my career is stagnating as I near my 2 year mark in this role. Hearing about the salaries my colleagues are getting at other companies contributes to
7) I've been using Tinder for casual dating. Recently I realized I really, really, don't want to use a Match Group product as the cornerstone of my dating life so now I'm trying to do it in more "natural" ways, but due to the above I find myself not being a great candidate.
Overall, working remotely has contributed greatly to a sense of depression and anxiety I carry almost every day. However I've been dealing with it long enough that I think I have a good sense of it, I'm doing better these past few months then the rest of the year combined and have clear goals (like the working out) that will help me do better.
I hope these points aren't too candid, I just figured many in this community could be going through the same things and hearing a shared story would help.
Finding the first win helps a ton. :)
Ah yes, that's familiar.
I would also say that you have to embrace the biggest benefit of remote work - personal agency. Most remote workers I know (myself included) can for the most part work when we want to work. I can workout at 10am or go train BJJ at 9:30am. Instead of having to shape my day around work, I can shape work around my day. The personal agency aspect is the biggest benefit for me, and one that I would be hard pressed to ever give up at this point.
BTW, working from home should make it much easier to maintain the weight you want since healthy food options should be easier at home. WFH means I can throw some chicken and veggies on the grill at lunch for a healthy and cheap meal.
There are massive perks to working remotely and I will never (hopefully), ever have to work in an office and commute again.
You have to be extremely disciplined, and have a company that knows how to set requirements properly.
If you have that, and you know exactly what needs to be done, and when it needs to be done by, then you are set.
Do it, and then do whatever else you want. Wake up whenever, take a 3 hour lunch break, it doesn't matter.
I worked 4 hours this Sunday AM because I had nothing else to do and I wanted to get progress done on my current task.
This is the proper way to work, especially so for software engineers, where everything can be done 100% the same remotely as it can be done in an office.
BTW, commutes aren't 'fun', but it gives me a chance to read/reply to my emails, plan my day, or do some reading, so on balance I do save non-negligible time.
I think humans have always struggled with finding ways to be happy in whatever circumstances they are provided, and remote work and the new global economy are going to force us (through some struggle) to figure out the best ways for ourselves to get on.
Ultimately as I mention in my original post it's about self-discipline and structure to do what you know will make you happy, but strangely that can be pretty hard.
I can definitely echo the sentiments about gaining weight, working out, cooking, and depression and anxiety. I've got a grasp on the issues, and I could probably "make it work" for a while longer, but I'm old enough and at a point in my career where "make it work" is a lazy cop-out; I can afford to push for "good" or even "great", and feel like I should. But long term remote work just kills inertia.
Alternatively, consider a class. A dance class can be great for both 1 & 7 (note: don't be that guy who hits on every woman in your class, no one likes that guy), but it could be anything, martial arts, gymnastics/ninja warrior, racketball, etc.
Oh I have a family and have set up house, and that helps a lot. I'm still finding community and roots and trying to remember what I like doing when not working .. but I already know I like working with hands so that helps direct me some already. so I'm slowly teaching child sewing (as I slowly remember how to, myself).
I would love to be able to meet a few people in similar situations around a bonfire, and chat like friends. Perhaps we'd come away with some insights; otherwise, we'd have at least enjoyed the company of a few new friends and some warm fire light.
I've been full-time remote for my entire software development career and have happily taken advantage of it for occasional travels and such, but for the most part live in one place and love the community that I've plugged into. Finding a place where I'm surrounded every workday by people that I get along with rather than sitting at home with my dog and my computer has been totally integral to that.
The secret is that spending all your time alone actually sucks for a lot of people (and for those whom it doesn't, great! Working from home may serve you well).
It so happens that coworking strikes a good balance for many of us. My location and that of my employer are fully decoupled, and my coworkers don't have any overlapping office politics. When I change jobs, I don't stop seeing my friends. It's pretty ideal.
The chances to find modern and interesting companies there is very unrealistic.
Put there an co-working office and there will be fast internet and social noise.
I'm in a very similar situation.
I can work from basically anywhere. For the first year of fully remote work, I moved all over my country. During the second year, I went abroad and spend 3ish months in several nearby countries.
Now I'm entering year 3 and I'm miserable. Having freedom to live anywhere makes the place I choose feel like it's "wrong" in some way.
5. Political situation - not a warzone? Not under sharia? Very democratic, or key to world issues you consider important?
4. Climate - no tundra/sahara? Would you benefit from living near the sea?
3. Food - is the local food edible? Is the local food cheap, including the restaurants? Or is it just very good?
2. Access to nature - do you want to try mountain ranges? Forests? A kind of people you like having around? If I feel disconnected from the city, I just use the public utilities more: coffee, beer, parks and benches for reading on. Not quite collecting mushrooms in the forest but I'm getting there.
1. Culture and language - any cultures you want to learn about? New languages? What would bring your personal and professional development in harmony?
Good luck!
P.S.: The Netherlands are decent. Everything is very "duidelijk", clear, and direct. People don't mind speaking English and speak it well. Weather is mild, can be a bit rainy but not half as bad as Britain. Housing aplenty for a programmer's salary. Consider visiting for a week or so if it peaks your interest.
Contact email in my profile.
AWS/Amazon Australia still send me recruiting emails occasionally.
May I suggest picking up a outdoor hobby and living near a place that enables it.
Since winter is coming up. How about skiing and colorado. I promise you mountains will lift your sprits up, life problems seem so meaningless in mighty mountains.
OP here ... I used to be a competitive snowboarder, but that was many years ago.
Now I am pretty out of shape from sitting in front of computers for decades, but that's my own fault for not taking care of myself. It is funny you mention this though, because I currently live about 20 minutes from a ski resort and was thinking about a season pass to get back into it.
Our modern lifestyle is extremely different from the lifestyles that shaped our evolution over millennia. You can't just pick and choose to what aspects you apply the naturalistic argument.
At all time in history before the industrial revolution? You worked at home, which was right next to your field, or in front of /under your home. Commuting to work wasn't even an option ; usually only merchants traveled.
The weird situation is when you have to move away from your family in unfamiliar cramped apartments just so you can work in a factory nearby and perhaps send them back money. It's not "normal", it's rather abnormal but cities have adapted to this abnormal situation. The trend to economies becoming 100% services is helping to bring people back to ancient normality.
> We should be focusing on creating more flexible office environments
No we should be working to make residential areas more social and turn them to mixed residential/commercial, just how it used to be (and still is in most of europe). Offices are a relic.
This is actually going to happen spontaneously as soon as everyone has 4-5 neighbors who also work from home. It's a matter of time
No surprise to me but most people need a village to be happy. That means having neighbours, familiar strangers, a regular routine and social bonds between all of those things. Remote work doesn't isolate you from the village.
I think it should be the predominant way of working. It can encourage villages and less commutes. When I worked remotely I found an office in a co-working space. I made friends with other people who worked in that space. I could walk, bike, or take public transit to the space. I had a mix of friends, acquaintances, familiar strangers, and strangers throughout my day.
It's better for the environment and for people.
I also know people who sail around the world and live a nomadic lifestyle. They all face the same difficulties with mental health: they need a village. The ones who manage to stick it out build a village around their lifestyle. However it's always a risk and one that should be planned for.
Maybe that is the key - go figure out who you are, build up your life, and only then start working remotely.
It's always enriching to read personal perspective from people that live on a bubble different than mine.
I want to start working remotely to be able to avoid commutes and to have more flexibility on how I manage my time during the day. It never crossed my mind that I should be traveling.
I would phrase that it is not ok to not prioritize friendships and mental health over traveling.
But different bubbles offer different peer pressures. It is good to know about them in order to also understand my own bubble better
I think this is a dangerous assumption, and why OP wrote the article. People often make choices based on assumptions and bad information. Like not knowing that they need a vibrant social life to feel well, because they simply never lacked one.
Rootlessness is real and hard.
> I’ve never worked from a real office or even had a “real” job
I really think that a precursor to working remote should be working in an office. I always advise against younger workers to go remote early in their career. There's a huge benefit to being in the office when you're young and have much to learn in your field. Once you've been in the industry for a few years I think it's much easier to switch to a remote lifestyle.
As far as the loneliness of remote work...my 100% remote company is taking a slightly different approach to solve this problem. The more we spoke with other remote workers in coworking spaces, coffee shops, etc...the more we realized that people work in those spaces to get the feeling of human interaction, whether or not they actually talk to people while they're out working.
What we started doing is hosting these "Work Clubs" where we get 5-6 remote workers together at a table at a coffee shop and we all work together for a couple of hours. It's not a networking event, but more of a casual way to meet people while you get your work done. It gets you out of the house and around other people and we got such good feedback from other remote workers that we're looking to help others hold their own work clubs wherever they work.
We're currently hosting work clubs in San Francisco, San Diego, and Portland, and hoping to grow. If you're interested you can find out more at https://outofoffice.app/workclub/remote
- and this is something I suspect that happier more productive socities as well as companies will embrace
Moving out of my home country and forcing myself to get comfortable meeting strangers was not only the most important thing I’ve done for myself, but gave me a handful of incredibly close friends I didn’t have before, and I was happily working remotely for a company in another country during that time.
It’s not for everyone, but don’t let this article dissuade you from trying it, if you can. Meeting people from all over the world, and learning a new language, all while working remotely was life changing in a way I didn’t think possible.
I’ve always wondered how a highly social job like a Product Manager, or Salesperson could possibly work remotely when you need to have a ton of meetings and face to face contact
But if you want to be more than a gear on a team, the main decision making and insight is often strictly between local workers, regardless of what gets said in meetings it's the water cooler or after work beers. If all the decision makers are in one place and you're not there, you're missing a lot of context. A few key in-person meetings as required goes a long way to mitigate this, but for organizations that see cost savings as a main benefit to remote workers this may be difficult to arrange.
> Encouraging people to use sick days for mental health when they need them.
It's nice that a company actually cares, but I feel there's a way to push this too far... Like not everything is a "mental health issue". You feel sad, unmotivated, anxious about your future some days? Well everyone does, it's called being human (and not a psychopath)! I sometimes get the feeling that by encouraging indulging in these (often ephemeral, fleeting) feelings encourages a victim mentality of helplessness and doom... maybe we should be encouraging resilience instead (not in the "be strong suppress your feelings" kind of way, just as a middle ground).
This isn't what accepting that you have mental health issues look like. This is what happens when you don't have support to handle your mental health in helpful ways.
"to encourage wellbeing: 40 days paid vacation per year: True disconnection is fundamental to help people de-stress and recharge."
Is this common elsewhere in the world? In the US, it Seems like 10 or 15 days is the norm, and maybe 20 after 5 years.
What do the FAANG+ companies offer?
Does the 2 months of vacation also contribute to that disconnected feeling, I wonder?
Working in it for 10years always had those conditions in any job.
I negotiated 20 days vacation starting (or one month). Plus, 5 days carry over. At 5 years that number increases to 30 days (or six weeks).
I also get 5 sick days and get 8 weeks paternity leave.
Honestly, I take probably 2 months off a year in two week increments.
In Europe (or at least a good part of it) vacation is "spent" only on workdays, not weekends or holidays (which is fairer, you wouldn't be working on these days).
So in Sweden, where you get 25 days compared to Brazil's 30, you actually get roughly one week more vacation per year. This is not evident at a first glance just by comparing numbers.
In practice it really depends where you work.
In some jobs you will have a lot of latitude, and the employer will let you freely choose and only veto it if it's really disruptive (like everybody else in the team leaving at the same time). This is what I had experienced, working in IT.
I suspect that in some lines of work, like the service industry, you might be totally out of luck and have zero choice on the matter.
Like expecting longer "on hours" or a bit lower pay in exchange for the benefits. Of course as always it could be circumstances which give it cheaper or "free" like if there are down times where there isn't much meaningful work available.
Neat to see hn grouping previous submissions across 3 different URLs ("past").
Canonical URLs FTW.
It is a terrifying feeling to say the least. I am trying to be optimistic and hope to get over it quick.
Working remotely have been amazing and was a life changing experience for me. It was good in that I got to see the world as it is for the first time. Being able to drive out or walk around the town at any time or anywhere is the most liberating feeling you can have. Prior, I was working in office for over 8 years so I had no idea there was a bustling world outside of the office.
So yeah it is scary to be going back but I am going with the mindset that being able to socialize will be worth the trade off.