At least if this keyboard goes bad, it's a simple component swap instead of RMAing an entire computer. IT departments could keep them in stock like they do other spare parts.
It’s called the “magic keyboard”, which is the same branding that Apple used on the 16” MacBook Pro to signify that it’s not the butterfly. So I think this should be good
"A full-size keyboard designed for iPad Pro brings individual hard keycaps and a scissor mechanism with 1 mm travel for a responsive, comfortable and quiet typing experience."
Wow, I was just about to buy a 3rd generation. I’m really glad they brought back 128gb storage — 64gb is too little and 256gb is overkill for my needs.
I am thinking masonry/fireplace door installation. Each fireplace needs measured accurately before one can order a Fireplace door. Often times, customers opt to measure themselves. In a previous life, the company I worked for ran into so many issues and so many "rejected" doors that were used for floor/clearance models. Even if the customer did not do the measurement, installers would get it wrong. The measurements necessary for a Fireplace door include up to 12+ distinct measurement. The type of door (zero clearance, etc..) as well as door accessories are heavily dependent on the measurements. Imagine placing an order, waiting 4-8 weeks for it to be built and all to discover that it doesn't fit. Anyone interested in tackling this problem, get a hold of me.
I would like an app that lets me map the dimensions and floor plans of an indoor space. Without really knowing a ton about lidar or the specific implementation of it in this device, I imagine that could be done?
The apps that use the camera are all pretty clunky. If I could just walk around the inside of my house for a while and let it map it out, that would be nifty.
(put on tin foil hat) Then the iPad can track my movement around my house and play ads based on which room I am in.
Example - walks into bathroom and I hear "Try new lemon toilet bowl cleaner."
There are already apps that do that. They are useful for home appraisers, interior designers, architects. Anyone who wants to quickly map out a building. They just use the camera though so improving the accuracy with Lidar would be valuable to those professionals who already use those apps.
I want to remodel my house. I want to take my device, scan everything, then put replace parts - new vanity in bathroom, try different paints in different rooms, new lighting etc.
After each change, I want to put on my VR device and walk around. Finally, I want to send the changes I choose to a contractor.
sorry for the non-context response, but in hopes you see the reply (and missed the one from the other day), blockbattle.net is currently down. would be great if it could be back up, not sure of any other way to contact the creators, will not nag about this again here. if you want someone to take over hosting, would be totally up for it :-) great game, Thanks.
Thank You :-) Would be great if anyone still involved could drop by /r/blockbattlenet ... would be happy to help with hosting (or if open sourcing at this point is an option, even better). Thanks again!
Why would someone want to map out an indoor space as a 3D model with color and precision? I would never have thought the usefulness of that would be in question. Any kind of building or construction, virtual spaces, robotics navigation, virtual tours etc. can and already are making use of these things.
"Later this year, Shapr 3D, a professional CAD system based on Siemens Parasolid technology, will use the LiDAR Scanner to automatically generate an accurate 2D floor plan and 3D model of a room which can then be used as the basis to design remodels or room additions like a bathroom or closet. New designs can then be previewed in real-world scale using AR right in the room you scanned."
Basically same as the current AR, but with actual measurements. So the scale is actually correct, distance measures are correct, and so on. Can create a 3D model up to the range of the LIDAR etc etc.
A 3D model of your home in a cartoon/"the sims" style that shows where your smart home devices are. The model could also be used to play various automation scenarios (e.g. morning routine, or someone walks past the front door). It's easy to keep track of a few devices, but if you have many similar devices, you likely think about them by location, not by name or other identifier.
I'm going to develop an alarm app that flashes the iPad screen red and blares an alarm when the user, walking with their head down, ignores the crosswalk signs and steps into the path of a car that has the right of way. At least the user will know that their death was their own fault ... something that wasn't possible until now.
- How about self-body scanning for dating apps? You can add it on your profile as a "LiDAR 3d-model" bonus so interested parties know they're not getting catfished. Yeah, you can always scan your hot friend, but it just requires another level of deception.
- How about a "night-vision" app? Without needing a flashlight, you can stumble around a dark room (maybe outdoors at night?) without running into walls.
3D scan any physical object and then send it to a 3D printer. So many possibilities!
- Cosplayer? 3D scan yourself, you now have a model you can make minis out of.
- Need to replace a simple valve to help treat covid19? This does most of the work for you.
- Game dev? You can scan a real world item, either importing it directly or using it as an outline for an in-game object.
For most high detail or functional things you probably will need to make some adjustments to the scanned model, but it could make the whole process waaay easier.
It really depends on a lot more than lidar. Kinect and Tango were lidar as well but getting a point cloud and computing perfect geometry are not the same thing!
It is only new to the iPad - you can look at intel's realsense and microsoft's kinect to check out depth cameras in use for many years already. The integration is what will make it special. We will have to see what the noise is like coming off the camera though. I would guess there will be some SLAM demos of mapping spaces or digitizing objects.
A lot of these comments are expecting magical perfectly scanned geo but really its just another slightly less fuzzy point cloud you need to sort through. Kinect and Tango did it. Maybe Apple cracked it and it is magical. We'll have to see.
Even the current one that's literally just a run-of-the-mill keyboard is £159 (£199 for the bigger iPad!). A plain keyboard should not cost more than the Pencil.
Well it's also a display stand, to raise the iPad Pro up (insert joke about Apple's 20K stand here). Anyone with a current Mac who's been using it for a while want to tel us how the keyboard is? I'm typing this on one of 2018 ones and it feels like I'm typing directly on a desk.
I have a current Macbook Pro that's mine and a butterfly-switch MBP from work. The butterfly is acceptable, although I've finally gotten a doubling key, x, which is a problem for doing cmd-x.
The new MBP keyboard is noticeably different in feel from the old scissor-switch keyboard, but not especially so. It's comfortable to type on and I'm happy with it.
To be honest, even though it is extremely overpriced, it will be a great addition to my (new) iPad Pro.
This 11 inch iPad Pro has been my main machine since it was released in November 2018, and as such it has been great value for money.
I am a bit of an unusual case since I’ve been using iPads to cover (almost all of) my computing and workflow needs since the release of the first iPad in 2010. iPadOS has given the platform an enormous boost in utility. The new keyboard brings is a step closer to being a zero-regrets laptop alternative (i.e., an option orthogonal to as opposed to in replacement of) a laptop.
As pointed out by another, it is also a stand. Now I expect the mechanical work has to be pretty superb to guarantee it can keep the iPad at the angle you choose. I cannot wait for a tear down of the stand.
I am a bit confused by the usb-c port for pass through charging. I would have thought a great opportunity would be to have the stand be able to wireless charge the iPad while in use but I expect the power requirements of an iPad in use would exceed current standards.
Regardless, the interesting point to me is with keyboard, pencil, and such, the price point overlap with their laptop line makes we wonder about rumors of an ARM chipped line of Macs. Without the processor difference price comparisons are going to be much more difficult to blow off
When Apple switched to Intel they rented developers a custom dev kit machine before the consumer products launched. If they change over to ARM, this could very well be the dev kit hardware.
> I am a bit confused by the usb-c port for pass through charging. I would have thought a great opportunity would be to have the stand be able to wireless charge the iPad while in use but I expect the power requirements of an iPad in use would exceed current standards.
Looking at the published photos, there doesn't appear to be a mechanical interface along the edge of the ipad to the stand.
I've never laid hands on an iPad Pro but photos show it has 3 pogo pads on the backside, is that enough to do data and power? I was under the impression that USB-3 required multiple pairs of data wires. Some sort of proprietary signaling?
On the previous iPad Pro keyboard page, they had this text: "The Smart Connector transfers both data and power between iPad Pro and the Smart Keyboard Folio — no batteries or charging required"
It's the same connector since the new one is backwards compatible with the old iPad Pro.
If you google "iPad Smart Connector pinout" you find previous discussion/speculation on the protocol
edit: the announcement specifically says the stand supports "pass-through charging, keeping the USB-C port on iPad Pro free for accessories including external drives and displays". So the pogo pins only have to have enough data bandwidth to send keystrokes, the stand won't give you USB 3 data
It's only about $40 more than a Magic Keyboard and Magic Trackpad 2. Toss in a cover which can act as a stand, and you're probably close to the same price.
Don't forget that it is backlit and because it has power in also adds effectively an additional USB C port, thow in a case and you are well over the top. The current Smart Keyboard Folio + Magic Trackpad 2 is $310.
No, it's Apple's scissor switch keyboard which is considered one of the best low-profile keyboards around. Lugging around even a compact mechanical keyboard for use with an iPad is a hassle.
a scissor keyboard? so it is a common chiclet which most of the cheap keyboards use https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiclet_keyboard with very mild "clicking" feedback/feel. Well, it's been used in the industry for 30+ years because it actually works, in contrast to "batterfly". But it's nothing special to justify the price.
It's rich hearing mechanical keyboard fans panning Apple keyboards on price.
The sole reason mechanical keyboards are still sold is because some people prefer the feel of them and are willing to pay extra for that finger feel. Similarly, the reason people pay a premium for Apple's keyboards is because people prefer the feel of them. Prior to the butterfly keyboard, it was one of the big reasons people preferred Apple laptops.
Since few of the most die-hard mechanical keyboard fans are willing to haul around their bulky keyboards with sweet Cherry Blue switches, choices for good quality keyboards on the go is fairly limited and the Apple Magic keyboard is high on the list, and yes, people are willing to pay for that experience.
I can get behind the lightweight and simple design, but my main problem is if I own a laptop, I lug around 1 item. If I have an ipad with a keyboard, I now have 2 items.
It would be different if this was a device that could switch between MacOS and IpadOS. But it's not. So it really seems like Apple is continually reinforcing the fact that we should be carrying around 30 separate items with us all at once to be prepared when we need to do one particular thing.
I can't wait until Apple gets this stuff sorted around because frankly I"m sick of them doing this stuff. The past 5 years they've been doubling down moving us toward USB-C but also making sure we need like 10 dongles or separate devices for their machines. Whoever is currently in their design team clearly is getting more say in the manufacturing of the devices than anybody in engineering I can say that. They need to make something that saves me time, not something that annoys me just like a PC.
Take a notice: it doesn't seem to be any contact pads on the new ipad.
If there is indeed no contact pads, then it's likely they had to develop some custom rf connection just to support the type-c without contact pads (usb 3.0 needs a ton of bandwidth,) and that ain't cheap.
To follow up, yes, it does. But because iPadOS doesn’t support all the swipe gestures on my first generation Magic Trackpad that my Mac does—notably scrolling—I’m disconnecting it. If I’m going to have to touch the screen to scroll, why have the cursor?
It is not my experience that keyboards are part of their garden wall. I have used bluetooth keyboards with my iPads going back to the first generation of iPad Mini.
What their keyboards do offer is tighter integration. That’s not a wall, it’s more like growing enticing apples in the orchard within the garden.
Not much different than the situation with upgrades for my Volvo. The Volvo stuff is tightly integrated. OEM stuff sometimes involves compromises, like plugging things into the port and fiddling with bluetooth.
I'm not sure what you're getting at here, bluetooth & USB keyboards all work fine. I've used aftermarket keyboards exclusively for the past... 6 or so years on the iPad.
I value an Escape key (being emacs/evil user) and use iPad Pro as my primary computer for the past 2 years. The trick is you just use a real keyboard with it (HHKB-BT in my case) :-)
To be honest it never really bothered me once I realised that a lot of iPad apps let me rebind the caps lock key to work as escape. I'd just love for them to make that option available globally like it is on the Mac.
Not only that, but also native KeyUp and KeyDown events[1] without needing a JavaScript hacks! This means keychord-type shortcuts are now also possible in an app that wants to use it (e.g. an IDE, if someone is building one), or app-specific key remapping (e.g. Blink.sh, which currently uses JavaScript to detect and remap the key)
I am always baffled, when the keyboard + iPad issue is brought up, perhaps my use-case is unique. I use a Apple A1314 Keyboard, which has an ESC key, it is Bluetooth enabled with decent key travel, and cheap to acquire. It is just a matter of popping the iPad Pro 10.5 (2017) on an after market stand and/or propping it atop a stack of books if required, it is a good solution and works well, even for a touch-typist like myself.
However, I would appreciate better support for MX Master as opposed to the current solution via Accessibility.
I use the Magic Keyboard myself, or the Kanex MultiSync https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B01MZ2TKIR/ that has support for 3 devices and keyboard backlighting. What I really want is a proper mechanical keyboard with good BT support, hopefully the Keychron K6 I have on order will be the ticket.
Completely off-topic, but for everybody that maps Caps Lock to esc, how do you ctrl-tab? That's what my Caps Lock is mapped to, and I cannot understand how ctrl-tab can be any sort of comfortable to reach on a standard layout?
I haven't mapped my caps lock to anything else, but on my Mac I ⌘-tab, which is pretty natural for my thumb and fourth finger given the position of the ⌘ key next to the space bar.
My wallet will hurt but damn this makes my 2018 keyboard folio look like a joke, much like how “a phone, an iPod, an Internet communication device” made previous phones look like a joke.
I remember when the iPhone X broke the $1000 barrier and made phones that cost even more than that suddenly acceptable. It seems Apple is successfully pushing up the acceptable price for things.
I couldn't find any weight specifications for the Magic Keyboard for iPad Pro. For reference: the 12.9-inch Smart Keyboard Folio, without a trackpad and without scissor switches, weighs 407 grams. So, lets speculate the new keyboard, as a blind guess, weighs 500 grams. Adding this to the new iPad 12.9"'s weight of 642 grams, the total weight is over 1.2 kilograms, which already is in the range of the new MBA2020 with 1.29 kilograms. Why not take the full laptop instead, then?
because weight isn't everything and it is optional (i.e. i can put the keyboard in my bag): Pencil support, proper portrait support, reading on the ipad is easier once you remove the optional keyboard, much easier to hold on a commute
I have a $100+ Logitech keyboard for my existing iPad. It supports only one position; is not backlit; and has no integrated trackpad.
There's definitely an Apple tax here, but it's also a premium item, so that pricing doesn't seem ridiculous to me. Also, the existing Bluetooth options will still work, and the Apple Smart Folio keyboard is still an option at a lower price point.
Kind of have to look at it as the whole package. You aren't buying an iPad and a keyboard, you are buying a 10.5" laptop for $1,100.
I went cheap on my older iPad Pro and just use an aftermarket bluetooth keyboard, but I've kept this guy for 4+ years now and spending a bit (Ok a LOT) more and having a really nice keyboard/ case/ trackpad affects the usefulness of the device for the entire time.
Still debating it, still not sure I'm upgrading my iPad yet, but I'm a lot more likely to pay the extra for the nicer setup this time around.
Macbook Air for $1k is not a very good tablet, battery life and screen are not as good.
It's not immediately clear which one is better. Depends on how you expect to use it.
For me, I need developer tools, multiple browser engines, and spreadsheets, so I'm going to be on a laptop or desktop as my main computer for a while yet. That's not true of everyone. Many people can use this as their main machine and there are certain advantages to it.
The CPU, speakers, cameras, and display on the iPad Pro are much better. You can also detach the iPad from the base instantly and have the best tablet on the market.
Seems like every generation of iPad & iPad OS makes the Mac a little less relevant. That said... if you need MacOS—for example you are a developer—you get a Mac.
It'll be interesting when Macs with ARM CPUs hit the market. Or for that matter... if they were to release MacOS for the iPad.
Mine would be when can we get a Pro keyboard too like the one on the MacBook Air? Escape and F keys are too useful to lose if this is a potential laptop replacement. Maybe Brydge will make a full function aftermarket keyboard.
Tangential, but I’ve observed that preferences of what caps lock should be is dependent on your domain.
I write and use a browser in my work. Caps lock as backspace makes the most sense. There will be others that will (unnecessarily) argue with me that caps should and always will be escape.
A possible (mainstream) solution is to change the caps to a custom key that’s configured in the initial setup of a device.
Hard to say without knowing the component cost, but I would really like a non backfacing camera (or very cheap back camera) option in the future.
I could see myself having a beefy desktop, this iPad with the keyboard, and my phone. But if you're not into the whole AR-scene, the camera seems redundant as I always have my phone with me.
But I guess there's not enough people like me to justify that model...
I agree. Taking photos with an iPad looks so ridiculous anyhow; the photo in the press release where they're using the thing to do a photoshoot is really bizarre.
Yes! I'm currently deciding between the new ReMarkable2 and an iPad Pro. Having a cheaper iPad Pro without these AR/Camera-Stuff as an option would make this decision easier.
I'm in the same boat. While I much prefer the more natural feel of the ReMarkable, I want to use apps like GoodNote that allow for a seamless transition between typing and handwriting, and let you move around images that you've drawn in your notes.
I'd be curious to hear what criteria you're using to make your decision.
Just get the 3rd generation iPad Pro on the inevitable discount when the new one becomes widely available, or refurbished units when people start using the trade-in program to upgrade.
The Remarkable2 seems rather expensive at $400 for a monochrome device that isn't as versatile as an iPad, let alone an iPad Pro.
What I really want to see is a (non-protruding) back camera in the centre and with a wide enough lens to be able to see through the screen 1:1 while pointing at a surface.
It would enable way more YouTube creators to be able to see properly while they’re recording.
The new MacBook Air looks really nice as well. Here's hoping we see a new 13/14" MacBook Pro in the next day or two as well. I want to upgrade from my 15" but I don't want this form factor anymore. 14" in a slightly bigger 13" form factor would be ideal.
I loved the form factor of the 2015 MacBooks. It was perfect for college and I took it everywhere. It only lasted ~2 years before the mobo failed and it longer booted up. I think there was a known heating issue with these laptops.
I have here a 2015 1.2Ghz/8GB/512GB live and kicking. but for cpp development it was very slow.
but it was great form-factor. though my fav machine is still my MBA 2013" I have upgraded it with 2TB and it's still a great machine.
That issue was actually recalled and given an extended service warranty period, I think. Otherwise, those 2015 ones responded well to being baked in the oven, if you still have yours.
I love it. The new keyboard looks great. I have a first gen 12.9 iPad pro and it has completely replaced a laptop for everything but my development work. I can't wait for Apple to put A series processors into a Macbook pro.
Apple's marketing on the new iPad pros is that they can replace your computer. I bought the most recent iPad Pro model and I can say that unless the only thing you do on your computer is browse the internet (without downloading anything) you're going to have a bad time. Here are some things that don't work:
* A full-featured file browser. The files app is sort of workable now, but the experience is really bad and certainly not suitable for any kind of professional or power-user usage.
* SMB or any other kind of file sharing. Once again, Apple theoretically supports this now, but in practice it's totally broken and non-functional.
* Video editing. The iPad only supports a few formats and refuses to show high-quality videos (the limit is 100mbps or 200mbps or something).
* High quality video conferencing/streaming/recording. The iPad pro has somewhat-working support for external audio devices (although apps have to support device selection, and most don't), but it has zero support whatsoever for external video devices. This means you're stuck with the shitty built-in cameras (which, no matter what Apple marketing says, are not "pro" or "studio" quality)
* No ability to do any kind of coding or scripting or anything except via SSH to a real general purpose computer
Some things that do work ok:
* Email
* Web browsing
* Photo editing (this is actually quite nice, as long as you don't need bulk processing)
* It's a decent SSH thin client, with an app like Prompt
* Note taking
I mostly use my iPad for taking notes and stuff at work, and occasionally for photo proofing/editing. For everything else, I still use my laptop.
So who is this almost $1,000 iPad for? Typically the argument for Apple's wild pricing is that "it's for professionals" but if you can't do anything "professional" with it...it sounds like the surface or something would be better since you can at least do those things with it.
What most people use a computer for these days are not what we use a computer for. Most people probably require little except a phone for most computing needs.
* Getting a convenient dock and better physical keyboard.
* Surfing on an iPad is probably a lot better and fast experience than a similarly priced computer.
* A lot of dedicated apps for most tasks people need. (Youtube, Spotify, Netflix, etc)
* People use email/dropbox/similar for sharing files.
* File browser definitely needs improvement. Specially for working with email attachments.
* As long as you can edit videos recorded with your phone/ipad.
* Most people use the built in camera and mic or perhaps a dedicated computer for conferencing.
* Getting Excel on it would be sufficient for business programming.
Apple released a pro product that’s not aimed at programmers. The physical form factor and keyboard are useful even if the computing could be done in a phone.
> What most people use a computer for these days are not what we use a computer for. Most people probably require little except a phone for most computing needs.
Most people also don't buy such costly computers, so I'm not sure why do you think a hugely expensive iPad "PRO" would be something meant for "most" people.
People buy really expensive iPhones as well.
My point wasn’t that the iPad Pro is for most people. Just that the features it and the future regular iPad supports are enough for most of the computing needs.
FYI you can do audio device selection from the little “airplay” icon in the top right of the audio widget in control center. It’s not really obvious but it’s separately clickable.
Having to re-sign one’s apps every seven days (or pay $99/yr) barely counts, IMO; but yes, jailbreaking is easier than ever on any iPhone s as recent as the X/8.
I can’t imagine anyone wanting to use this for development. But then again, I don’t see how people develop without at least one, preferably two external monitors.
The new MacBook Air for $999 would be a lot more appropriate.
1. iPad doesn't have a serious IDE. And syncing your workspace with a local computer is not trivial.
2. Safari for iPad doesn't have a dev mode.
3. However, if you only use terminal and vi, iPad has a great terminal app: Blink. Honestly Blink is better than most of desktop terminal in the market.
https://blink.sh/
I use an iPad Air for light webdev work. Built my personal website with it, using a few handy apps.
Working Copy is an excellent Git client and pretty good text editor, Shellfish is great for FTP/SFTP.
Other good editors include Buffer and Textastic. Terminus is a great terminal client (though the pro edition is pricey).
Pythonista is a surprisingly powerful Python environment – with a bit of work I got Django working on it. Codea is the same for Lua. DraftCode is good for PHP, though more limited. Can run Wordpress and other PHP CMSs. There's other apps for JS/Node.
Inspect gives on-device browser developer tools. Not the best but still useful.
Plus, there's iSH, a Testflight-only app that provides a mostly complete Alpine Linux environment. Managed to get Git/Ruby/Jekyll running on it to develop a site locally, though it was slow.
Have you written about these workflows anywhere? If so, I’d be interested in the links. This sounds like by far the most sophisticated iPad development workflow I’ve ever heard of anyone using.
At a stretch you can, although probably not as a primary/sole machine for web development. I bought an iPad Pro about a year ago with the intention of doing just that (and using it for other stuff).
Essentially you need to be able to work from a remote server to do anything that could be considered serious web development.
So prepare to spin yourself up an EC2 instance or a Digital Ocean droplet that you will be working from.
for my editor. None of these are as good as something like SublimeText or a proper IDE but they are good, basic text editors with FTP/SFTP/etc. integration, code highlighting/folding/auto indentation etc. GoCoEdit I found to be probably the better of those three but they all offer something the others don't.
There's a SQL Client you can use (if you're not that comfortable on the CLI with your chosen SQL server) called SQLPro which I believe is available for MySQL, Postgres, MS SQL Server or you can get one that covers all but it's not especially cheap - £55 a year or £150 one time payment.
I've downloaded and used Dash, which is a documentation app that gives you offline access to API documentation for all your favourite languages and tools.
So there are plenty of tools available - some of them integrate with each other more tightly but I've found you're still really limited in how much development you can do. There's nothing like Docker or Vagrant available, you couldn't run your favourite language locally in a terminal although I recall seeing a PHP parser and a Javascript environemtn available for iOS that gives you some ability to code locally. Nothing you could use for any serious work.
Until Apple gives us the ability to get to the guts of iOS and install our own tools, realistically you're always going to be limited to working off a remote server for any serious work. I think the tools that are currently available are great but are limited. You may find a workflow that gets around the limitations and if you do, please share!
But it’s interesting when two things evolve towards each other, but starting from different places. Like comparing bats and birds, or penguins, otters, and fish.
In this case, evolving from a device designed for touch only into touch-first is going to be different from a device that evolved from—let’s be honest—keyboards, punch cards, and the command-line.
Judging from the (in my opinion) really clunky multi window feature in iPadOS it seems they are struggling to get even close to the usability of macOS. I don’t think so far iPadOS scales well to larger screen sizes and multitasking. A lot of things take more clicking compared to macOS.
The multi-tasking UX is atrocious. Daring Fireball has been posting critical essays and alternate designs for months. I hold out hope for a redesign: They redesigned WatchOS's UX, I don't think the multi-tasking in "untouchable" (heh).
It's ironic, but I've transitioned from using Ulysses and other apps for text editing to Blink + Mosh +
Tmux + Neovim (with Goyo plugin for focusing). This is on a 12.9" iPad Pro.
It's a smooth setup. I like iOS, but am tired of dragging apps from the dock.
(Note: I use Working Copy as a local git client & editor for times when I'm without internet or when I need to copy to another app. Great combo.)
Yes I wonder what's going to 'win', tablet or 'laptop which can act like tablet', or will they both stay?
At this rate we'll have to start comparing tablets like this to laptops like Surface Pro and it's clones (or vice-versa, maybe the Surface is the clone, don't remember exact sequence of events) because the only difference is the OS. And if more 'tablet modes' start emerging from main OS the gap will become very narrow.
I can't imagine a tablet is ever going to win for extremely typing-heavy tasks like writing and coding. This new keyboard also seems like it requires you to be sitting at a table to work well, which doesn't cover a lot of the cases where I type on a laptop.
To be honest, it's hard for me to think of cases where the tablet is better suited outside of things like digital drawing/painting, and some niche cases like at an expo.
From my colleague's and my experience: the iPad pro is a manager's dream. It's lightweight, you can take notes (either by writing or by typing), you can attend remote meetings with it, it works with all* websites... basically it's everything your average manager or C-level exec could ever want in one package.
You are right, however, in that long-form typing (say, over 1k words) and serious multitasking (>2 apps, or 2 apps that refuse to side-by-side) will be a real pain on a tablet. However, you can hook an iPad pro up to a standard USB-C dock and use it with a large monitor as well as a standard keyboard. It will never be a full laptop replacement (though if Apple made it possible to run base MacOS I might change my mind), but it's good enough.
* The only websites I've ever had issues with are those that explicitly break the experience.
Once I got my ipad pro I basically stopped using my laptop for anything but programming and video games. The former is basically just waiting on tooling and the latter is only a problem because the specific games I want to play aren't available.
I think the iPad will be the long term winner here. Legacy OS's are just way too reliant on keyboard / mouse. Having owned a Surface Book, I can easily say that the tablet mode is not workable with the software ecosystem that exists. You can mostly make it function in limited cases, but outside of a small handful of programs built specifically for it the experience is poor.
On the other hand, the addition of a keyboard just makes the iPad even easier to use. Using a mouse is slightly more awkward since you can't use gestures, but you can always fall back to the screen that's right in front of you. The extra precision is overkill, but it isn't painful.
Another layer to add in the tablets' favor: kids these days are growing up using phones and tablets. That's the way they interact with computing technology. It will be increasingly easier to convince these new generations to buy something that's familiar, but with some extra power and utility, as apposed to something that is foreign.
> Having owned a Surface Book, I can easily say that the tablet mode is not workable with the software ecosystem that exists.
Many Surface devices can run Linux+GNOME natively, and that software UX is at least as workable on a tablet as iPadOS, probably more so. Proprietary apps are lacking, of course (not always a bad thing) but some are available via Flatpak or (in a pinch) Snap.
Incorrect. It is not the standard desktop version of Photoshop, it is something quite inferior and there are many online articles discussing the differences.
> The LiDAR Scanner measures the distance to surrounding objects up to 5 meters away, works both indoors and outdoors, and operates at the photon level at nano-second speeds.
Light travels 30cm in 1ns. That's not really a very exciting precision at 5m range. That's like 4bit resolution.
Are there any specs aside from this marketing blabber?
It's a ToF sensor array, so you wouldn't expect the range of a Leica Disto, not would it make sense in this use case. Think more of gestures like a Kinect, or realtors making floor plans by scanning a room around.
Between the 3D front-scanner for Face ID (which, incidentally, worked less well than TouchID did at the time of FaceID launch), the whole touchbar debacle, the UWB radio locator stuff in the latest iPhones, EKG support on the watch, and now LIDAR on the iPad, it seems like Apple is lately really into putting esoteric/novel hardware that nobody really wants or cares about into their newest high-end devices. There's even an argument that the now-debunked butterfly keyboard foray falls into this category (literally nothing was wrong with the scissor/mbair keyboard, as evidenced by the fact that they've returned to it essentially unmodified).
You can make the argument that Face ID/3D front scanner has enough "wow" or utility to be a selling point. I'm not so sure about any of the other stuff, especially the UWB and now LIDAR. This feels like throwing stuff against the wall until something or other sticks—pretty un-Apple, IMO.
I feel like Apple's hit a rough patch in terms of traditional Apple-level innovation; the AirPods and HomePod are mindbendingly great products, but outside of those, "going back to the old keyboard" is the biggest selling point they've shipped really since going all-in on Retina and then Display P3. Everything else user-facing has been incremental (e.g. TrueTone, routine CPU/GPU advances). To be clear, I don't mean to disparage the technical merit of these achievements in any way. It's a major achievement to do what they've done, and there's a lot more of it, across more product lines than ever before in their history, but my iPhone 11 pro maximum mclargehuge is not twice as good as my iPhone 7 was, CPU/GPU increases notwithstanding.
(I'm really, really glad about the T2 boot security that prevents Evil Maid, and the speakers in the new rMBP 16" are astoundingly good, and the 120Hz on iPad Pro is lovely, but this comment is about marquee/headline features.)
Maybe they're just more startuppy now, trying different things in different directions to see what cool technology ends up sticking around. I'm reminded of the time they shipped a bunch of speech recognition launcher/shortcut stuff and voiceprint login out of left field with os9. I still don't "get" where they think they're headed with AR (which is not to say they don't have a cool plan, just that it's not obvious from the outside what, if anything, it is).
I sure hope they've got something big up their sleeve other than the impending AnX CPU macOS laptops.
Apple user since 1985 here. Apple has made some marvellous things, but if we actually look at their entire history, innovation has happened in lurches, it’s not like every single thing they ship upends and redefines entire categories.
Tons of stuff the do is incremental, and yes, lots of dead-ends happen. Just look at the history of their mice. Or Newton. Or their tepid ventures into consoles, Macs that doubled as TVs, or CD-ROM drives that were also standalone CD players.
Yeah, you've got a great point. It's easy to forget a lot of their quirky weird sometimes-dead-end experiments over the years. It could just be a memory bias.
To this end, though: are there any Apple historians, inside or outside of the company?
Because we've had a family group iMessage chat going for nearly a decade now, and there's approximately zero percent chance of my Mum adopting a different platform. (It's also light-hearted teasing, not an alcoholism-style intervention.)
Tangentially, I was thinking of using an iPad as an ergonomic keyboard (free tap layout) because the magic keyboard has a layout which is very bad for RSI.
665 comments
[ 4.8 ms ] story [ 296 ms ] threadSeems very similar to the new Pro keyboard!
The apps that use the camera are all pretty clunky. If I could just walk around the inside of my house for a while and let it map it out, that would be nifty.
(put on tin foil hat) Then the iPad can track my movement around my house and play ads based on which room I am in.
Example - walks into bathroom and I hear "Try new lemon toilet bowl cleaner."
No, no, no :(
I want to remodel my house. I want to take my device, scan everything, then put replace parts - new vanity in bathroom, try different paints in different rooms, new lighting etc.
After each change, I want to put on my VR device and walk around. Finally, I want to send the changes I choose to a contractor.
"Later this year, Shapr 3D, a professional CAD system based on Siemens Parasolid technology, will use the LiDAR Scanner to automatically generate an accurate 2D floor plan and 3D model of a room which can then be used as the basis to design remodels or room additions like a bathroom or closet. New designs can then be previewed in real-world scale using AR right in the room you scanned."
- How about a "night-vision" app? Without needing a flashlight, you can stumble around a dark room (maybe outdoors at night?) without running into walls.
The iPad screen would act like a flashlight, just you'd be pointing it at your face instead of at the world.
- Cosplayer? 3D scan yourself, you now have a model you can make minis out of.
- Need to replace a simple valve to help treat covid19? This does most of the work for you.
- Game dev? You can scan a real world item, either importing it directly or using it as an outline for an in-game object.
For most high detail or functional things you probably will need to make some adjustments to the scanned model, but it could make the whole process waaay easier.
They're good for tracking and measurement but the data out of them has near zero aesthetic quality especially for its complexity.
Also, just as the Kinect allowed for some makeshift motion capture / animation, maybe the lidar could allow for some makeshift 3D modeling.
Wow. This must be one hell of a keyboard..
The new MBP keyboard is noticeably different in feel from the old scissor-switch keyboard, but not especially so. It's comfortable to type on and I'm happy with it.
This 11 inch iPad Pro has been my main machine since it was released in November 2018, and as such it has been great value for money.
I am a bit of an unusual case since I’ve been using iPads to cover (almost all of) my computing and workflow needs since the release of the first iPad in 2010. iPadOS has given the platform an enormous boost in utility. The new keyboard brings is a step closer to being a zero-regrets laptop alternative (i.e., an option orthogonal to as opposed to in replacement of) a laptop.
I am a bit confused by the usb-c port for pass through charging. I would have thought a great opportunity would be to have the stand be able to wireless charge the iPad while in use but I expect the power requirements of an iPad in use would exceed current standards.
Regardless, the interesting point to me is with keyboard, pencil, and such, the price point overlap with their laptop line makes we wonder about rumors of an ARM chipped line of Macs. Without the processor difference price comparisons are going to be much more difficult to blow off
Looking at the published photos, there doesn't appear to be a mechanical interface along the edge of the ipad to the stand.
https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MXQT2LL/A/magic-keyboard-...
I've never laid hands on an iPad Pro but photos show it has 3 pogo pads on the backside, is that enough to do data and power? I was under the impression that USB-3 required multiple pairs of data wires. Some sort of proprietary signaling?
Maybe it is using wireless power?
It's the same connector since the new one is backwards compatible with the old iPad Pro.
If you google "iPad Smart Connector pinout" you find previous discussion/speculation on the protocol
edit: the announcement specifically says the stand supports "pass-through charging, keeping the USB-C port on iPad Pro free for accessories including external drives and displays". So the pogo pins only have to have enough data bandwidth to send keystrokes, the stand won't give you USB 3 data
/s?
Input accessories are getting pricy.
It's rich hearing mechanical keyboard fans panning Apple keyboards on price.
The sole reason mechanical keyboards are still sold is because some people prefer the feel of them and are willing to pay extra for that finger feel. Similarly, the reason people pay a premium for Apple's keyboards is because people prefer the feel of them. Prior to the butterfly keyboard, it was one of the big reasons people preferred Apple laptops.
Since few of the most die-hard mechanical keyboard fans are willing to haul around their bulky keyboards with sweet Cherry Blue switches, choices for good quality keyboards on the go is fairly limited and the Apple Magic keyboard is high on the list, and yes, people are willing to pay for that experience.
It would be different if this was a device that could switch between MacOS and IpadOS. But it's not. So it really seems like Apple is continually reinforcing the fact that we should be carrying around 30 separate items with us all at once to be prepared when we need to do one particular thing.
I can't wait until Apple gets this stuff sorted around because frankly I"m sick of them doing this stuff. The past 5 years they've been doubling down moving us toward USB-C but also making sure we need like 10 dongles or separate devices for their machines. Whoever is currently in their design team clearly is getting more say in the manufacturing of the devices than anybody in engineering I can say that. They need to make something that saves me time, not something that annoys me just like a PC.
If there is indeed no contact pads, then it's likely they had to develop some custom rf connection just to support the type-c without contact pads (usb 3.0 needs a ton of bandwidth,) and that ain't cheap.
What their keyboards do offer is tighter integration. That’s not a wall, it’s more like growing enticing apples in the orchard within the garden.
Not much different than the situation with upgrades for my Volvo. The Volvo stuff is tightly integrated. OEM stuff sometimes involves compromises, like plugging things into the port and fiddling with bluetooth.
Don't worry, they'll tell you.
(I hailstormed this message on Cherry MX Blues.)
Support outside vim (actually a terminal) is a bit less reliable.
[1]: https://twitter.com/johnsundell/status/1225177084965851137
However, I would appreciate better support for MX Master as opposed to the current solution via Accessibility.
https://www.idownloadblog.com/2020/02/06/ipados-13-4-hardwar...
You can do this with Karabiner on OS X, ililim/dual-key-remap on Windows, and alols/xcape on Linux.
wow. just wow.
He said (a few times): "An iPod, a phone, an internet mobile communicator... these are NOT three separate devices!"
Cant believe it has been 9 years.
There's definitely an Apple tax here, but it's also a premium item, so that pricing doesn't seem ridiculous to me. Also, the existing Bluetooth options will still work, and the Apple Smart Folio keyboard is still an option at a lower price point.
Kind of have to look at it as the whole package. You aren't buying an iPad and a keyboard, you are buying a 10.5" laptop for $1,100.
I went cheap on my older iPad Pro and just use an aftermarket bluetooth keyboard, but I've kept this guy for 4+ years now and spending a bit (Ok a LOT) more and having a really nice keyboard/ case/ trackpad affects the usefulness of the device for the entire time.
Still debating it, still not sure I'm upgrading my iPad yet, but I'm a lot more likely to pay the extra for the nicer setup this time around.
It's not immediately clear which one is better. Depends on how you expect to use it.
For me, I need developer tools, multiple browser engines, and spreadsheets, so I'm going to be on a laptop or desktop as my main computer for a while yet. That's not true of everyone. Many people can use this as their main machine and there are certain advantages to it.
Seems like every generation of iPad & iPad OS makes the Mac a little less relevant. That said... if you need MacOS—for example you are a developer—you get a Mac.
It'll be interesting when Macs with ARM CPUs hit the market. Or for that matter... if they were to release MacOS for the iPad.
0: https://www.idownloadblog.com/2020/02/06/ipados-13-4-hardwar...
I write and use a browser in my work. Caps lock as backspace makes the most sense. There will be others that will (unnecessarily) argue with me that caps should and always will be escape.
A possible (mainstream) solution is to change the caps to a custom key that’s configured in the initial setup of a device.
But you have a backspace key on your keyboard?
I could see myself having a beefy desktop, this iPad with the keyboard, and my phone. But if you're not into the whole AR-scene, the camera seems redundant as I always have my phone with me.
But I guess there's not enough people like me to justify that model...
I'm fine with a backfacing camera. I'm not a fan of a camera that protrudes.
I'd be curious to hear what criteria you're using to make your decision.
The Remarkable2 seems rather expensive at $400 for a monochrome device that isn't as versatile as an iPad, let alone an iPad Pro.
It would enable way more YouTube creators to be able to see properly while they’re recording.
Even with no camera on the back the price would be the same, they may or may not even justify it with improving a different component.
> adds keyboard
So... a laptop?
The comparable configuration (256 GB/LTE/pen+keyboard) is around ~$670 cheaper for Samsung than Apple.
I.e. Apple: $1049 (11", 256GB, LTE) + $129 (pen) + $299 (keyboard); for Tab S6 bundle I paid £684.25 (before VAT), which makes it around ~$806.
So if by basically the same price you meant almost half the price, then yes, otherwise no.
* A full-featured file browser. The files app is sort of workable now, but the experience is really bad and certainly not suitable for any kind of professional or power-user usage.
* SMB or any other kind of file sharing. Once again, Apple theoretically supports this now, but in practice it's totally broken and non-functional.
* Video editing. The iPad only supports a few formats and refuses to show high-quality videos (the limit is 100mbps or 200mbps or something).
* High quality video conferencing/streaming/recording. The iPad pro has somewhat-working support for external audio devices (although apps have to support device selection, and most don't), but it has zero support whatsoever for external video devices. This means you're stuck with the shitty built-in cameras (which, no matter what Apple marketing says, are not "pro" or "studio" quality)
* No ability to do any kind of coding or scripting or anything except via SSH to a real general purpose computer
Some things that do work ok:
* Email
* Web browsing
* Photo editing (this is actually quite nice, as long as you don't need bulk processing)
* It's a decent SSH thin client, with an app like Prompt
* Note taking
I mostly use my iPad for taking notes and stuff at work, and occasionally for photo proofing/editing. For everything else, I still use my laptop.
Buy better apps. Textastic + Working Copy FTW.
ShellFish, the sftp client by the same developer is also excellent. Genuinely game-changing for working with sftp sites.
* Getting a convenient dock and better physical keyboard. * Surfing on an iPad is probably a lot better and fast experience than a similarly priced computer. * A lot of dedicated apps for most tasks people need. (Youtube, Spotify, Netflix, etc) * People use email/dropbox/similar for sharing files. * File browser definitely needs improvement. Specially for working with email attachments. * As long as you can edit videos recorded with your phone/ipad. * Most people use the built in camera and mic or perhaps a dedicated computer for conferencing. * Getting Excel on it would be sufficient for business programming.
That's why I'm posting this on HN and not Facebook or something.
Everything you mention could be done on a smartphone - no need for this allegedly "computer replacing" iPad.
The people at my company who use Excel absolutely could not do what they do on an iPad.
Most people also don't buy such costly computers, so I'm not sure why do you think a hugely expensive iPad "PRO" would be something meant for "most" people.
> (the lidar) operates at the photon level at nano-second speed.
Whaddya say!
The new MacBook Air for $999 would be a lot more appropriate.
1. iPad doesn't have a serious IDE. And syncing your workspace with a local computer is not trivial.
2. Safari for iPad doesn't have a dev mode.
3. However, if you only use terminal and vi, iPad has a great terminal app: Blink. Honestly Blink is better than most of desktop terminal in the market. https://blink.sh/
Working Copy is an excellent Git client and pretty good text editor, Shellfish is great for FTP/SFTP.
Other good editors include Buffer and Textastic. Terminus is a great terminal client (though the pro edition is pricey).
Pythonista is a surprisingly powerful Python environment – with a bit of work I got Django working on it. Codea is the same for Lua. DraftCode is good for PHP, though more limited. Can run Wordpress and other PHP CMSs. There's other apps for JS/Node.
Inspect gives on-device browser developer tools. Not the best but still useful.
Plus, there's iSH, a Testflight-only app that provides a mostly complete Alpine Linux environment. Managed to get Git/Ruby/Jekyll running on it to develop a site locally, though it was slow.
Essentially you need to be able to work from a remote server to do anything that could be considered serious web development.
So prepare to spin yourself up an EC2 instance or a Digital Ocean droplet that you will be working from.
There are some good tools available now -
Working Copy (https://workingcopyapp.com/) is a very good Git client
Blink(https://blink.sh/) is the terminal app you'd need
And I've used a mixture of
Kodex(https://kodex.app/), Textastic(https://www.textasticapp.com/) and GoCoEdit(https://gocoedit.app/)
for my editor. None of these are as good as something like SublimeText or a proper IDE but they are good, basic text editors with FTP/SFTP/etc. integration, code highlighting/folding/auto indentation etc. GoCoEdit I found to be probably the better of those three but they all offer something the others don't.
There's a SQL Client you can use (if you're not that comfortable on the CLI with your chosen SQL server) called SQLPro which I believe is available for MySQL, Postgres, MS SQL Server or you can get one that covers all but it's not especially cheap - £55 a year or £150 one time payment.
I've downloaded and used Dash, which is a documentation app that gives you offline access to API documentation for all your favourite languages and tools.
So there are plenty of tools available - some of them integrate with each other more tightly but I've found you're still really limited in how much development you can do. There's nothing like Docker or Vagrant available, you couldn't run your favourite language locally in a terminal although I recall seeing a PHP parser and a Javascript environemtn available for iOS that gives you some ability to code locally. Nothing you could use for any serious work.
Until Apple gives us the ability to get to the guts of iOS and install our own tools, realistically you're always going to be limited to working off a remote server for any serious work. I think the tools that are currently available are great but are limited. You may find a workflow that gets around the limitations and if you do, please share!
But it’s interesting when two things evolve towards each other, but starting from different places. Like comparing bats and birds, or penguins, otters, and fish.
In this case, evolving from a device designed for touch only into touch-first is going to be different from a device that evolved from—let’s be honest—keyboards, punch cards, and the command-line.
It's a smooth setup. I like iOS, but am tired of dragging apps from the dock.
(Note: I use Working Copy as a local git client & editor for times when I'm without internet or when I need to copy to another app. Great combo.)
At this rate we'll have to start comparing tablets like this to laptops like Surface Pro and it's clones (or vice-versa, maybe the Surface is the clone, don't remember exact sequence of events) because the only difference is the OS. And if more 'tablet modes' start emerging from main OS the gap will become very narrow.
To be honest, it's hard for me to think of cases where the tablet is better suited outside of things like digital drawing/painting, and some niche cases like at an expo.
You are right, however, in that long-form typing (say, over 1k words) and serious multitasking (>2 apps, or 2 apps that refuse to side-by-side) will be a real pain on a tablet. However, you can hook an iPad pro up to a standard USB-C dock and use it with a large monitor as well as a standard keyboard. It will never be a full laptop replacement (though if Apple made it possible to run base MacOS I might change my mind), but it's good enough.
* The only websites I've ever had issues with are those that explicitly break the experience.
I think the iPad will be the long term winner here. Legacy OS's are just way too reliant on keyboard / mouse. Having owned a Surface Book, I can easily say that the tablet mode is not workable with the software ecosystem that exists. You can mostly make it function in limited cases, but outside of a small handful of programs built specifically for it the experience is poor.
On the other hand, the addition of a keyboard just makes the iPad even easier to use. Using a mouse is slightly more awkward since you can't use gestures, but you can always fall back to the screen that's right in front of you. The extra precision is overkill, but it isn't painful.
Another layer to add in the tablets' favor: kids these days are growing up using phones and tablets. That's the way they interact with computing technology. It will be increasingly easier to convince these new generations to buy something that's familiar, but with some extra power and utility, as apposed to something that is foreign.
Many Surface devices can run Linux+GNOME natively, and that software UX is at least as workable on a tablet as iPadOS, probably more so. Proprietary apps are lacking, of course (not always a bad thing) but some are available via Flatpak or (in a pinch) Snap.
The bar is extremely high and people aren't going to settle - the notion that they might is just a techie pipe dream.
Light travels 30cm in 1ns. That's not really a very exciting precision at 5m range. That's like 4bit resolution.
Are there any specs aside from this marketing blabber?
Ok... but they actually said "The biggest thing to happen to the cursor since point and click." What, being on an iPad?
Probably something like this:
https://www.st.com/resource/en/datasheet/vl53l1x.pdf
Between the 3D front-scanner for Face ID (which, incidentally, worked less well than TouchID did at the time of FaceID launch), the whole touchbar debacle, the UWB radio locator stuff in the latest iPhones, EKG support on the watch, and now LIDAR on the iPad, it seems like Apple is lately really into putting esoteric/novel hardware that nobody really wants or cares about into their newest high-end devices. There's even an argument that the now-debunked butterfly keyboard foray falls into this category (literally nothing was wrong with the scissor/mbair keyboard, as evidenced by the fact that they've returned to it essentially unmodified).
You can make the argument that Face ID/3D front scanner has enough "wow" or utility to be a selling point. I'm not so sure about any of the other stuff, especially the UWB and now LIDAR. This feels like throwing stuff against the wall until something or other sticks—pretty un-Apple, IMO.
I feel like Apple's hit a rough patch in terms of traditional Apple-level innovation; the AirPods and HomePod are mindbendingly great products, but outside of those, "going back to the old keyboard" is the biggest selling point they've shipped really since going all-in on Retina and then Display P3. Everything else user-facing has been incremental (e.g. TrueTone, routine CPU/GPU advances). To be clear, I don't mean to disparage the technical merit of these achievements in any way. It's a major achievement to do what they've done, and there's a lot more of it, across more product lines than ever before in their history, but my iPhone 11 pro maximum mclargehuge is not twice as good as my iPhone 7 was, CPU/GPU increases notwithstanding.
(I'm really, really glad about the T2 boot security that prevents Evil Maid, and the speakers in the new rMBP 16" are astoundingly good, and the 120Hz on iPad Pro is lovely, but this comment is about marquee/headline features.)
Maybe they're just more startuppy now, trying different things in different directions to see what cool technology ends up sticking around. I'm reminded of the time they shipped a bunch of speech recognition launcher/shortcut stuff and voiceprint login out of left field with os9. I still don't "get" where they think they're headed with AR (which is not to say they don't have a cool plan, just that it's not obvious from the outside what, if anything, it is).
I sure hope they've got something big up their sleeve other than the impending AnX CPU macOS laptops.
Tons of stuff the do is incremental, and yes, lots of dead-ends happen. Just look at the history of their mice. Or Newton. Or their tepid ventures into consoles, Macs that doubled as TVs, or CD-ROM drives that were also standalone CD players.
To this end, though: are there any Apple historians, inside or outside of the company?
If only the stores Outside of China were open...
My BIL married into our all iPhone family. We regularly harass him about getting one, and I suspect he eventually will.
It's one of their best marketing tactics.
But... why? Are you paid by apple to harass people to buy their products... or why are you doing that?!