A classmate of mine in 3rd grade spent an entire year in more or less constant pain when one of his legs needed growth plate surgery. He had metal pins sticking out of his legs, and like you would with braces, they were forcibly separated a millimeter or so a week for a year. This is like having a broken femur for 12 months that's intentionally never allowed to heal so the bone has to keep regrowing to fill in the gap.
i don’t recommend it for aesthetics! in his case, it was required and something they wanted to do before his growth plates closed completely. As a result he's had a normal adulthood.
Actually, this can happen also by accident during hip joint replacement surgery many older people take these days. The chance is not very high, but it sucks, as you then have one leg slightly longer, causing all manner of problems. Reportedly people then have to use special shooes but it still sucks.
The "special shoes" really just depends on the extent of your problem. I've worked with folks that needed a significant lift on one foot: these were not cheap at all.
On the other hand, my mother has one leg slightly longer than the other. It does cause her pain, but all she needs is a shoe insert to correct the issue. It really isn't a big deal at all, and avoiding pain is definitely worth it.
It's amazing to me that to get gender confirming surgery you need a letter from a psychologist and an unrelated doctor to prove you're sane enough, but if you're a rich dude you can just pay to have your legs broken so you can be over 6 feet tall.
Ethically, these doctors are supposed to get reassure themselves that their patients are compos mentis. In practice, though, actually doing so effectively would devastate the plastic surgery industry, especially this sort of fringe stuff. Note that there seem to be about three doctors worldwide who do this as a cosmetic procedure. (It is worth noting that the doctor in the article says he's turned people away, so some sort of screening is presumably being applied.)
There was an amazing Channel 4 (UK TV channel) documentary a while back about penis enlargement surgery. _Every single person_ who appeared in it should probably have been referred to a psychologist. One guy had it done about 10 times.
I don't see any of that. There's some overwrought navel-gazing about masculinity but I just posted the link because it showed that apparently you can get an embolism from leg extension surgery.
She blamed it on ‘the patriarchy’, that is, essentially, traditional gender roles and expectations. Those absolutely harm both women and men. Why was the brother insecure over his height in the first place? Almost certainly because society says that men _should_ be taller.
This is about the fact that women strongly prefer a man that is considerably taller than themselves.
If this is a cultural norm or an inherent part of human nature is both debatable and researchable. To me, it has all the marks of a builtin preference of our species.
You know, as someone tall enough to walk into doorways in older buildings, and too tall to fold oneself into a compact car... Height advantages are subjective.
I believe they can get 3 inches only if they lengthen femur and tibia/fibia, so it would be closer to 3.8 cm longer tibia. Still seems like it would make everything different
It probably wouldn't be that noticeable; there's a lot of natural variation there anyway. I've longer arms and legs that would be normal for my torso; in practice it mostly just manifests in minor problems with clothes (in particular it's very hard to get a shirt that fits).
Not everyone grows proportionally. Sometimes there's a condition attached such as hypochondroplasia; sometimes someone just has a longer torso than their arms and legs would suggest.
Don't think so. One of my friends is tall but has short legs, it's not really noticeable. You can notice it if he goes from being taller than someone sitting down to being shorter standing up, but it's not shocking, just something you'd notice if you were paying attention
I currently have disproportionately short legs, so I may be the ideal candidate for this. However, there’s no way I would put myself through this painful surgery just to end up having to explain why I’m suddenly taller to everybody. It would make something I’m insecure about a conversation starter for the next year.
> having to explain why I’m suddenly taller to everybody
Don’t worry about them: if these conversations become annoying to you, just find better understanding friends.
I’m not arguing for or against this procedure though: it can be helpful for some people and can be damaging (both physically and mentally) to others like any other cosmetic surgery.
If I am rich enough to have that done, I would rather have an app that displayed my bank balance on a small lapel button :) I'll be here all week :)
Anyway if a person's only dating criteria is your height and they themselves are not around that height, then I think it is best to stay as far away from that person as possible. I knew couple people like that and over the years they have had lots of relationship issues.
92.2% or so of men are taller than their heterosexual partners. This is usually attributed to women's preferences, although I'm sure there are some men who insist on their SOs being shorter than them. Avoiding people who think height is an extremely important factor may not be possible.
The source posted answers that too. In one of the studies contained in the 538 article, the probability of a woman being taller than a men if both are selected randomly was .102. Compare this to the observed probability of woman in a couple being taller than her male partner being .075.
How big is this difference? Well if 25 percent of women only dated taller men, and the other 75 percent of women were totally indifferent, we would see this. So not quite as extreme as one might guess from a statistic like "92.5 percent of men are taller than their partners".
Oh wow. I didn’t know it was that uncommon. I’m fairly short, so every gf I’ve had was taller. But it’s terribly clear women have filtered me out often because of my height. It’s depressing.
> “I think that’s something that’s so powerful too — people will always be three inches taller or whatever you made them,” Debiparshad said. “They’ll die and be in their casket and decompose three inches longer. It’s very permanent.”
Possibly the best argument against getting this kind of bizarre cosmetic surgery.
I don't really understand why that's an argument against it. We do permanent things all the freaking time. Holes in earlobes and tattoos. We remove - and sometimes install - teeth! We patch folks up with metal, install breast and butt implants, install electronics to help hearts and brains. We suck away fat! Not all of these are minor cosmetic surgeries - some are major surgeries and optional!
And besides, if it weren't permanent, why would one go through the pain of the surgery in the first place? I'd actually argue that if the permanence is something that bothers you, this is certainly not something you would personally consider, but it certainly isn't really an argument against it being available for the wider population.
Neither does any of the rest of it, honestly. Tattoos decay. It won't matter that you got tooth implants. Your pacemaker won't matter, it'll be recycled or trashed. Most of us will just be forgotten. And that's all OK.
But things like that can mean that while you were alive, you were happier.
I think tattoos and piercings are stupid for the same reason.
Dental surgeries can make you look normal and improve function. Pacemakers help you live longer.
There are things that regular people can do that will survive their deaths. Mostly, having children. But also having close relationships with other people who will remember you, tell stories about you, and so on. I expect plenty of people on HN will write code that will survive them.
If it's true that people have a bias toward taller people, then becoming taller might help someone get those children and close relationships you mention. I have no tattoos, but it seems they can also help build camaraderie in the right setting.
These are methods of self-expression. (usually) people get tattoos because they want to remember something or because they like the aesthetics of it.
Breaking your legs or enlarging your breasts is done (often I'd say, not necessarily always) to attract others and to try to appeal to some beauty standard. There is a huge difference between self-assertion and trying to satisfy others expectations. The former is healthy, the latter is insecurity and making self-worth dependent on how one appeals to others in the most banal way is one of the most harmful things you can do arguably.
> get tattoos because they want to remember something or because they like the aesthetics of it. [...] Breaking your legs or enlarging your breasts is done [...] to appeal to some beauty standard
So... Because they like the aesthetic? Some people also get tattoos because they want to look tough, or fit into a certain crowd. You can find unhealthy and healthy expressions of both tattoos and cosmetic surgery. I doubt very much that you have firm numbers that one is far more likely than the other to be a healthy expression of aesthetics.
Being a few inches taller changes your perspective of the world. You could go from average height to towering over most people. Don't underestimate the confidence and social and financial benefits that can bring.
Also, if you have to justify what you want to do to your own body by "expression", are you no longer allowed to decide what you want to eat, or whether you are allowed to sun tan? It's an absurd requirement for agency.
Desire for confidence and status is exactly what I'm critizing because it makes people's notion of self-worth dependent on how they're perceived by others. What if your alleged signal of status changes because culture changes? Make yourself two inches shorter again?
Any mature conception of expression entails that you ask yourself if you're expressing yourself for your own sake or if you're molding yourself to the expectations of others.
Having genuine autonomy and agency means inquiring yourself if what you're doing is something you actually want, or you only think you want because it confers status. It's not obvious at all that everything you superficially want also makes you genuinely happy or if it's the product of some mimetic desire.
There is no coherent notion of "for one's own sake" that includes only values or behaviours that you think are healthy and excludes only those that you think are unhealthy. I could just as easily argue that your criteria for self-expression is maladaptive narcissism.
The question of health is determined by individual outcome, not according to some a priori definition. If the outcome yields positive long-term physical, emotional or behavioural changes, then the person is healthier. This will include decisions based on status, self-expression, or anything else you may approve or disapprove of.
One could argue that perhaps status-seeking reasons typically yield less healthy outcomes when compared to self-expression reasons, but that nuance hasn't been in the discussion so far.
When my hair was blue (or purple, or bright red, or whatever), I had people tell me that I'd be pretty if only I didn't have that hair color. If only I looked more natural. And that's OK, they didn't need to understand. I was happy with it, and I didn't need those folks to find me attractive nor need their permission.
If breast reduction surgery was cheaper and less invasive, I would have had it long ago. It'd be nice not to have to order bras or go to special stores. Or to fit into normal clothing more often. Plus, I'd be slightly happier with my shape. Not everyone would see the aesthetic of it, nor would anyone really say there is expression in it - but what the frick does that matter? It is my body and my life. I'm not sure how this is any different. It doesn't matter if I would get the surgery or not - I'd not do a lot of things others do.
Most of the things you mention are fairly safe and have limited impact on the person’s life; the exception would be the heart and brain procedures (some are safe, some not), but those aren’t cosmetic; they’re necessary.
I’d be wary of most cosmetic surgery, but this is probably about the most extreme form.
I would personally not do such a surgery myself - it is a major surgery. So is breast reduction, honestly (have looked into it). But I'm not about to say my choice needs to be other people's choice.
But that's really besides the point: Once we die, none of it matters, and that was my point.
Everything augments the chances you get cancer. Your chances are higher reading this now than when you had originally posted your comment. So, yes but also, who cares...
Having to undergo the process is a huge downside. I’ve done it 4 times. Forgot how bad the first three were (thanks brain) but my latest was a terrible time.
Another downside is that you will have scars all over your legs.
Your legs should not be more prone to breaking.
Gait and balance will initially of course be affected, but there’s no long term problems there.
I’ve had this surgery done on my right leg 4 times. 3 times on my fibula, at 4, 11, and 17 years old, and once at 26 years old on my femur.
The first two had me using the external lengthening frame, which makes for a gruesome looking leg with thin long screws drilled through your bone and poking out to connect to two metal rings whose spacing controlled the lengthening. It’s about as painful as you’d imagine it is to wake up after surgery with a half dozen screws through now your two pieces of fibula. I remember being scared of hitting the frame on things because of how painful it was.
At 17 I was able to take advantage of an internal lengthening rod, so no frame needed. It’s much nicer than a frame and I would say that is what all the article’s patients use. Remarkable medical tech.
By the time my last one was near I’d forgotten how bad the experience was. I took only 2 weeks off work. I was stupidly overconfident. I spent 1 week in hospital really drugged up and in heaps of pain, with a freshly broken femur, and then got home and had a worse week. It was too painful to sleep for a couple of months and the lengthening itself was awful, as my quad muscles were being stretched in ways that a child’s muscles will handle but my adult muscles were hating. I’d spend over an hour a day stretching my leg that originally could only bend 50 degrees, and more than once the pain brought me to tears.
Once I could get to a physiotherapist she was shocked at how cut up and bruised the surgery had made me. Over half the surface area of my right buttock, hip, and upper leg was purple, with 6 new scars. By that point, a month in, I had come to reckon with how brutal this surgery is, and that I had months and months of recovery left. I was not a happy person. Pretty angry, to be honest.
I couldn’t walk unaided by crutches for over 6 months, and I’d been aching to be able to walk since about day 14 of my recovery.
My right femur is now 4cm longer. People doing this surgery for cosmetic reasons do both legs and much more than 4cm at a time, sometimes 12cm.
12cm in one go must be agony for adult muscles, and it would take a over a year and half to get walking again. Having just experienced 4cm on one leg, it’s incredible that we let people do this to themselves so that they can be more attractive.
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[ 3.3 ms ] story [ 125 ms ] threadi don’t recommend it for aesthetics! in his case, it was required and something they wanted to do before his growth plates closed completely. As a result he's had a normal adulthood.
On the other hand, my mother has one leg slightly longer than the other. It does cause her pain, but all she needs is a shoe insert to correct the issue. It really isn't a big deal at all, and avoiding pain is definitely worth it.
There was an amazing Channel 4 (UK TV channel) documentary a while back about penis enlargement surgery. _Every single person_ who appeared in it should probably have been referred to a psychologist. One guy had it done about 10 times.
https://jezebel.com/stories-about-my-brother-1835651181
Author's brother died from am embolism resulting from height extension surgery.
> patriarchy and white supremacy
not on men.
If this is a cultural norm or an inherent part of human nature is both debatable and researchable. To me, it has all the marks of a builtin preference of our species.
Don’t worry about them: if these conversations become annoying to you, just find better understanding friends.
I’m not arguing for or against this procedure though: it can be helpful for some people and can be damaging (both physically and mentally) to others like any other cosmetic surgery.
No need to worry about that. This process takes several months.
Anyway if a person's only dating criteria is your height and they themselves are not around that height, then I think it is best to stay as far away from that person as possible. I knew couple people like that and over the years they have had lots of relationship issues.
Source: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-common-is-it-for-a-...
How big is this difference? Well if 25 percent of women only dated taller men, and the other 75 percent of women were totally indifferent, we would see this. So not quite as extreme as one might guess from a statistic like "92.5 percent of men are taller than their partners".
Possibly the best argument against getting this kind of bizarre cosmetic surgery.
And besides, if it weren't permanent, why would one go through the pain of the surgery in the first place? I'd actually argue that if the permanence is something that bothers you, this is certainly not something you would personally consider, but it certainly isn't really an argument against it being available for the wider population.
But things like that can mean that while you were alive, you were happier.
Dental surgeries can make you look normal and improve function. Pacemakers help you live longer.
There are things that regular people can do that will survive their deaths. Mostly, having children. But also having close relationships with other people who will remember you, tell stories about you, and so on. I expect plenty of people on HN will write code that will survive them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proving_too_much
But thanks for your very helpful link to wikipedia.
These are methods of self-expression. (usually) people get tattoos because they want to remember something or because they like the aesthetics of it.
Breaking your legs or enlarging your breasts is done (often I'd say, not necessarily always) to attract others and to try to appeal to some beauty standard. There is a huge difference between self-assertion and trying to satisfy others expectations. The former is healthy, the latter is insecurity and making self-worth dependent on how one appeals to others in the most banal way is one of the most harmful things you can do arguably.
So... Because they like the aesthetic? Some people also get tattoos because they want to look tough, or fit into a certain crowd. You can find unhealthy and healthy expressions of both tattoos and cosmetic surgery. I doubt very much that you have firm numbers that one is far more likely than the other to be a healthy expression of aesthetics.
Also, if you have to justify what you want to do to your own body by "expression", are you no longer allowed to decide what you want to eat, or whether you are allowed to sun tan? It's an absurd requirement for agency.
Any mature conception of expression entails that you ask yourself if you're expressing yourself for your own sake or if you're molding yourself to the expectations of others.
Having genuine autonomy and agency means inquiring yourself if what you're doing is something you actually want, or you only think you want because it confers status. It's not obvious at all that everything you superficially want also makes you genuinely happy or if it's the product of some mimetic desire.
The question of health is determined by individual outcome, not according to some a priori definition. If the outcome yields positive long-term physical, emotional or behavioural changes, then the person is healthier. This will include decisions based on status, self-expression, or anything else you may approve or disapprove of.
One could argue that perhaps status-seeking reasons typically yield less healthy outcomes when compared to self-expression reasons, but that nuance hasn't been in the discussion so far.
If breast reduction surgery was cheaper and less invasive, I would have had it long ago. It'd be nice not to have to order bras or go to special stores. Or to fit into normal clothing more often. Plus, I'd be slightly happier with my shape. Not everyone would see the aesthetic of it, nor would anyone really say there is expression in it - but what the frick does that matter? It is my body and my life. I'm not sure how this is any different. It doesn't matter if I would get the surgery or not - I'd not do a lot of things others do.
I’d be wary of most cosmetic surgery, but this is probably about the most extreme form.
But that's really besides the point: Once we die, none of it matters, and that was my point.
Will my legs be more prone to breaking (for instance, when jumping)?
Will my gait, or my balance be altered? Will this become a non-issue over time?
I'm curious.
Another downside is that you will have scars all over your legs.
Your legs should not be more prone to breaking.
Gait and balance will initially of course be affected, but there’s no long term problems there.
The first two had me using the external lengthening frame, which makes for a gruesome looking leg with thin long screws drilled through your bone and poking out to connect to two metal rings whose spacing controlled the lengthening. It’s about as painful as you’d imagine it is to wake up after surgery with a half dozen screws through now your two pieces of fibula. I remember being scared of hitting the frame on things because of how painful it was.
At 17 I was able to take advantage of an internal lengthening rod, so no frame needed. It’s much nicer than a frame and I would say that is what all the article’s patients use. Remarkable medical tech.
By the time my last one was near I’d forgotten how bad the experience was. I took only 2 weeks off work. I was stupidly overconfident. I spent 1 week in hospital really drugged up and in heaps of pain, with a freshly broken femur, and then got home and had a worse week. It was too painful to sleep for a couple of months and the lengthening itself was awful, as my quad muscles were being stretched in ways that a child’s muscles will handle but my adult muscles were hating. I’d spend over an hour a day stretching my leg that originally could only bend 50 degrees, and more than once the pain brought me to tears.
Once I could get to a physiotherapist she was shocked at how cut up and bruised the surgery had made me. Over half the surface area of my right buttock, hip, and upper leg was purple, with 6 new scars. By that point, a month in, I had come to reckon with how brutal this surgery is, and that I had months and months of recovery left. I was not a happy person. Pretty angry, to be honest.
I couldn’t walk unaided by crutches for over 6 months, and I’d been aching to be able to walk since about day 14 of my recovery.
My right femur is now 4cm longer. People doing this surgery for cosmetic reasons do both legs and much more than 4cm at a time, sometimes 12cm. 12cm in one go must be agony for adult muscles, and it would take a over a year and half to get walking again. Having just experienced 4cm on one leg, it’s incredible that we let people do this to themselves so that they can be more attractive.