Ask HN: What skills will be useful during an upcoming recession/depression?
My economic knowledge is limited but it seems like the effects of the global domino triggered by conoravirus will echo for many years to come. As a generalist who never had an issue finding a job so far, I'm afraid that in this new reality my software/management skills won't be of any use in 6 months.
What skills would be valuable to develop now to adapt as quick as possible to the new state of things?
193 comments
[ 4.6 ms ] story [ 242 ms ] threadA tactical position requires caution when vulnerable. old festering wounds and international quarrels can quickly be escalated in a situation like this.
It is a feasible scenario that someone of less than level head thinking will:
see opportunity >take advantage >achieve an objective.
general construction trades and adhoc engineering.
farming. hunting fishing.
veternary skills surgical skills midwivery dentistry.
localized /offgrid/on site power generation.
production of fuel from raw materials.
there should be some rep among operators to avoid bad apples that would try to take or make advantage with black comms
the prepper culture is really something elso tho, there is a local group that is just about the one group that i want to have as far away from me as possible.
have a look around here for example that ought to be a good starting point:
https://www.reddit.com/r/prepping/
if you know old programing language and are able to port ancient applications and data structures to a recent language and platform you will be valuable for the rebuilding.
The problem is how to evaluate a hypothetical? After all, there evaluation is purely based on knowledge, they by definition should not share...
I can not answer that.
More importantly, knowing how to live frugally is valuable in and of itself, assuming we do end up with a once-in-a-century-type depression.
Not impossible, according to some (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22655670) but then forecasting is very difficult, especially when it involves the future.
There are several other health care options that are much quicker to learn. Such as nursing, physician's assisting, lab work. Etc.
edit
For a couple simple examples consider the bic lighter. The strikers are made well enough it is possible to refill them and reuse them several times. Here is a video I made on it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fnnDu-_hso
possibly not the best video but it just shows it isn't very hard.
What about a ventilator that needs a part? Not hard for someone who knows a lot about 3d printing.
Thanks in advance
A second issue (note the time period) was that I saw what the CS students were learning, and I also had a summer internship in a computer facility, and I formed the impression that over the long haul, a programming job would be rather dull. The people who were doing things with computers that seemed "cool" to me, were in the math and physics departments. That included the use of microcomputers rather than mainframes.
I've certainly done a lot of programming throughout my career, but have not been employed as a programmer per se. Most physicists program, because it's our most efficient and flexible problem solving tool.
I could probably claim to be a "data scientist" right now, if push came to shove, but am in fact working through some training on that and machine learning, to fill in gaps and make me conversant in the terminology. It could propel my next career move, or at least serve as a bit of career insurance.
What kind of physics? Big banks on wall st hire(atleast used to) pure physics phds and train them to do quantitative analysis for finance
One possible idea is to get started learning math through physics. The reason is that physics is more applied than pure theoretical math, but the typical way of learning it makes use of similar math principles. Perhaps seeing this stuff in use will help pull you along when working through the pure math subjects.
Did it make you a better developer?
This skill allows you to lend to your buddies who can purchase distressed businesses and properties for pennies on the dollar, which gives you and them the opportunity to make billions in profits while everybody else is suffering.
I’m still trying to learn how to do this; if anybody has any information about what’s required, please reply.
Consider finding opportunities to extract value from the existing banking system to achieve similar end goals. Maybe the Fed will lend to you if you can provide collateral they typically wouldn’t consider high enough quality? (Google “primary dealer lending facility”)
DKSB - Dunning-Kruger State Bank
GM lost the American taxpayers north of $10MMM. That was enough to purchase over 500,000 vehicles at the time. 500 fucking thousand vehicles. That’s just the amount of money that they lost us with their “good Bank bad Bank” style IP-related scam. Do you think this is not reason enough to be cynical during financial crises?
Why didn't you write 500M cars as well? Could it be that it's a stupid convention?
> which gives you and them the opportunity to make billions in profits while everybody else is suffering.
Strikes me as shitty attitude, "here's how you can profit from everyone's dire situation".
Banks aren’t net purchasers of assets in downturns. (If anything, they tend to shed risk-weighted assets.)
Non-bank financial firms, who have access to cheap financing, but NOT to Fed funding, are the asset accumulators. They go into crises with cash or credit lines. (And tend to be net financiers to banks in crises. Banks go into crises levered. If you depend on bank financing in a crisis, you’re screwed.)
And hopefully utilize those profits to help fewer suffer.
And, now that that exact pandemic is underway, he’s kind enough to offer us ID2020[2], which he has been working on for some time now, coincidentally just in time for the pandemic; invisible tattoos so that our vaccination status can be tracked, to help prevent those who don’t want to take part in this scheme from having access to business resources, etc.
It’s funny; it’s almost as if Bill Gates can see the future. He really is amazing.
1. http://www.centerforhealthsecurity.org/event201/
2. http://id2020.org/
There were some high profile cases of people taking millions of dollars of loans and running away (search for Neerav Modi, Mehul Choksi) so I am not making this up.
this is actually harder to do for a lot of folks... especially the millions who are now forced to do it.
im training a few folks a week: http://yen.camp
I'd like to set something up but as this has just occurred to me I'm vague on specifics as yet. At a minimum I'd like easy-to-use community forums. Discourse is obviously a possibility.
I'm definitely going to be impacted by this recession. I was impacted by the 2008 recession and I was impacted by the dot-com bubble. A lot of friends went to do enterprise Java at banks, jobs without glamour and other things to pay the bills.
There are a lot of things I get away with right now that I won't be able to get away with anymore.
Also don't forget that "high performers" are more expensive and a lot of times "mid performers" do a good-enough job, so high performers had to compromise for mid-performer salaries during recessions.
Obviously start-ups closing and less funding all around also changes the supply-demand balance in the short term. It's likely to induce job changes and closures for at least some of us.
Perhaps I'm projecting but I think that cloud skills will be the enterprise Java/.Net of this recession. There is a trough of skills and a pretty clear line, it reminds me of desktop apps to web apps around 2008 as well.
Crack jokes, banter, wear a smile, but don't be a clown.
Best way is to surround yourself by people who do the same. Do not feel discouraged when they "throw a knife" (take the piss) your way, as it's a test of your conversational and mental frame. Agree and amplify, and laughs will be had.
Then again, don't surround yourself with bullies. A true friend stabs from the front to test and grow your mental frame, while enemies stab from the back to undermine your frame.
Point is, have fun. Don't be a walking talking wikipedia page of logical facts.
This is sort of what I am. I think it started long ago maybe when I felt as if this is one way I can provide value: to give you facts.
I'm aware that this is a problem, in that by doing this I'm not really engaged in a back-and-forth conversation -- I've been aware of this for some time, it's just that it's hard to transition away from this. I don't know how to do this, because this is who I am now, and changing who I am, that’s a deep change to make, it is hard, and I don’t know how I can do this.
It might be useful to -- consider that your information is... not useful.
By this I mean that you should be interested in how people react to new information in general. In some cases, people take this information and act on it. In most cases, they don't. It's very hard to convince someone, especially a stranger, to do something differently just by providing them new information.
Don't take my word for it. You don't even need to look to others to find the truth to this. Just look to yourself.
How often do you tangibly change your actions based on new information? I'm sure you have some less than desirable habits, and I'm sure you have know enough information to know that these habits are not helpful. Yet, even with this information, have you changed these habits?
I am similar. I sometimes struggle to engage in conversation... I'd rather just walk away and do something interesting to me. And this is fine, you don't need to always engage in conversation. But when you do, it shouldn't be to just dump information on people. This isn't effective. Even with people who you have close, intimate relationships with... it's even hard to change these people. Even if you do have the right information, it needs to be delivered with patience. You can't expect them to change overnight. You can't even expect them to change at all. If you want to tell someone something, you must do it with compassion, and expect that if they are going to take this information from you, it will be on their own time.
You must gain confidence. Have confidence in yourself, and you will find others will do the difficult conversational parts for you. The quickest way to gain confidence is to learn to lift compound weights and to increase the weight over the years.
Beyond that, remember to relax and be yourself. In my experience, people aren’t judging you nearly as much as you think they are.
The secret weapon in good conversation, especially if you're an introvert, is to ask questions. Try to make them open ended, not yes or no, and not right or wrong. Essay questions. Where are you from? What do you do?
Several months ago, there was an article here about a man who would ask the person he met what they did for a living and then, no matter they said, he would remark, "That sounds hard." This triggered a torrent of conversation and feelings of intimacy. That technique crosses over into artificial formula, and so I actually wouldn't recommend it. But it illustrates a point, that people are dying to be heard.
People aren't looking for a walking, talking encyclopedia. For one, the world is overrun with information, thanks to books and the internet. For another, it puts you on uneven footing. Now you are the teacher, and they are the student. People are repelled by condescension. They mainly are looking for people with whom they can be on equal footing.
There are also degrees of intimacy. The weather is a good opening remark with someone you just met, because it's not about either one of you. On the opposite end is something like, "How are you feeling after your recent divorce?" This is something you get the right to ask only after a very long time, perhaps years, of trust. Between those two is a spectrum.
1. Things about neither one of you, and uncontroversial: the weather, a movie, a sports game
2. Things about each of you, but not intimate: your job, what part of town you live in, what town you came from
3. More and more personal things about each of you: college major, family, children, how much you like your job
The first time you meet someone, you may not go very deep. But if you ask questions, be supportive of their answers as best you can, ask logical next questions that show you listened, and so on, then ironically you will be called "a great conversationalist."
The only thing I might add is that you can err too far on asking questions. If you're asking all the questions, and they're doing all the revealing, it may seem creepy. When they reveal something about themselves, then it may be a good time to reveal a corresponding amount about yourself. For example, if they tell you their job, then you tell them yours. Some people actually talk about themselves first, but as a way to let the other person feel safe to open up. For example, instead of asking what they think about the weather, you say, "Boy, it sure has been unseasonably cold." Then they will feel like agreeing or adding to it. "Yes, but at least I get to go skiing more." "Oh, you like skiing?" The best topics are ones that flow naturally from the last topic. That's another reason to listen closely.
So again, the point is not to entertain the other person but to at least start with the promise that you could one day be a trusted friend. That could take years, and for most people you meet it will never happen. But I would say that the same steps you take on the long road to a good friendship are the same steps you take one conversation at a time.
- How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie - Never Split the Difference: Negotiating As If Your Life Depended On It by Christopher Voss
In case it happens though, you are better of farming stuff like potatoes and chicken than developing software until government steps in with fiscal stimulus, though it will require some existing capital.
Various governmental interventions (stimulus, rent freezes, etc) can ameliorate this, but I'm not confident (and the financial sector isn't confident, I think) that the government is presently competent enough to get too much mileage out of implementing these; stimulus needs to be done correctly and promptly to have much effect.
If you're in (or your customers are in) an industry that can hunker down and "weather the downturn," the eventual return to normal will be priced in and you'll likely be fine. If you're in (or ditto) an industry that will suffer attrition, the uncertainty will be priced in and you're liable to suffer. Give some thought as to where you stand.
In other words, providing a stimulus package paid to the right people can prevent it.
That being said, as an aside, imagine slipping into a 3 month coma from a heavy Christmas 2019 party and waking up to eight other people on ventilators in your room. Imagine finding out Kobie Bryant died, that the USA assassinated a top Iranian military figure, and that the world economy dropped 35% in 1 month.
You'd think there was a war.
I’m curious: What do you mean by this?
It worries me that, as a huge percentage of the web runs on ads, if lots of industries get into trouble, the ad space will inevitably suffer as well. The cascading effect of that will most probably affect in a very obvious way every company I've worked for, layoffs will oversaturated the market and my current skillset will be insufficient to give me any competitive advantage.
You're right - ad-driven web properties won't do well. There is tons of code written every day that does actual revenue-generating work, however. It's not sexy work, it's not VC-funded work, and that's okay.
During the dot-com bust I had no problems with work. My longest contract was for a hospital, writing software to help nurses schedule and track patient visits. This was tangible work, with a tangible benefit. It wasn't a nebulous business model.
During the last recession, many of those that were let go were the "expensive" experienced developers that could command higher salaries than new hires.
I know several experienced developers that lost their jobs last week.
So my suggestion short term is: learn to cook if you don't know how to. Not fancy, haute cuisine, but how to take whatever's in the pantry and make something tasty out of it. Learn how to grow some produce in small spaces, even if it's just herbs.
Learn how to not spend money. How to reduce your energy and water usage. How to do basic repairs and projects yourself. What you have to buy in a time of logistical disruption is time. If you can increase the time you can be without income from a month to four months or from six months to two years, that is a remarkable difference in your resilience.
senior positions that require many years of experience for entrancy due to the nature of the job may suddenly go vacant with noone to fill them.
when older people, {people who understand how to retool and operate a VLSI plant for example, people who are ATCs or surgeons} die and there is only a pool of young inexperience to draw from we will have to make do without some of these things, change laws to allow reduced qualifications, and or accept things like nuclear accidents as a learning curve until we have experienced people ,[after the replacements make time in]
Wouldn't be the worst side effect. Nice to occasionally snap things back, then more restrictions can be put in place again if warranted.
There were a number of structural factors that led to the great depression: gold standard currency and restrictive monetary policy at the Fed, overly restrictive tariff laws, simultaneous drought that destroyed a lot of farmland, rampant financial fraud, lack of deposit insurance at banks causing numerous bank runs and failures.
Basically all of the above is different now. The modern Fed is organized around preventing the monetary mistakes made during the depression. We are on purely fiat currency now, not the volatile gold standard. Food security is hugely increased, and restrictive tariffs have not impacted the ag industry of Canada and Mexico, which are key supports of the US's food supply chain. We have the FDIC for deposit insurance and increased post-Great Recession capital controls on systemically important financial institutions (SIFIs).
We have also learned from the Roosevelt interventions of the 1930's that it requires both a strong monetary and fiscal policy to address a systemic shock to the economy. So it might take some time for stimulus to arrive, but it should be incoming.
Finally, we have the internet. Not to oversell it, but it's a significant asset that can ensure a degree of continuity of supplies, services and employment in an event such as this. Yes - it's not perfect and many necessary jobs can not be done over the internet. But it's better than the alternative.
So, my feeling is that we are heading into the most significant non-wartime economic event since the great depression, but if cards are played properly we should be able to mitigate the terrible effects to a much better degree than was possible in the 1930's.
3+ months of earning is non-trivial, and they'll never get them back.
Hopefully any stimulus will be aimed at recently un- or under-employed folks.
If I, as a working software developer, end up getting a check... the system is seriously unfair.
They are being told by their landlords they have to keep renting their chairs, perhaps at a discount, because it's a lease. They are being encouraged to get SBA loans by the government, and their landlord. This is vile and immoral. The mere suggestion is unethical feudal nonsense.
Make some people go into debt in order to help secure the income of their lord? It's uncivil to say it out loud. Turning it into official policy is an abomination. It indicts the whole culture of a society to do this.
I think as a class, they should declare bankruptcy. Force the next higher class to find redress, by mortgagees taking haircuts on loans, all the way up to pensioners and 401ks. The entire point of the free market is that it's supposed to account for these risks, and absorb them equitably. If the market or government demands some low rung people experience worse misery than others, it is a recipe for widespread loss of trust in a system, that quite frankly right now does not deserve trust.
What if you end up losing your employment a month or so down the road? The 'everyone getting a stimulus check' isn't great, but the effort to means test and make those somewhat arbitrary decisions is non-trivial, and there will always be someone who really did need it, but didn't seem to need it based on some algorithm.
I am struggling to see why you think that, since I don't watch CNBC and was not thinking of hedge funds or the stock market at all when I wrote the above post.
I didn't get into what I think should happen, which is this:
- immediate expansion of unemployment insurance to 75-100% of income for at least 12 months, with no shenanigans allowed at the state level
- for tip and gig workers and self-employed, 1040 income should be used to qualify for unemployment benefits up to a capped amount ($100k or whatever)
- immediate expansion of Medicare to anyone who qualifies for the ACA
- immediate open enrollment so people can switch to Medicare via the exchanges
- immediate expansion of SNAP and WIC
- 6 month moratorium on evictions nationwide
- any bailouts should be patterned on the Obama administration's auto bailout, which is to say the capital structure should be rewritten so that workers are given a piece of the company, and the public should benefit once the economy improves
I also expect to see a change in perception in the US to thinking that any civilized society that wishes to keep running needs to have a comprehensive health care system, a social safety net for basic income and housing, and a trusted set of expert institutions.
There are tons of helpful videos to get you started. I recommend Bon Appétit’s Test Kitchen on YouTube
And in terms of amortizing time spent learning, it's hard to beat getting better at something you do every day. Sometimes multiple times!
gourmet cooking it is not, but cheap and easy and often tasty
You could read some standard macroeconomics textbooks, but I'd advise against doing that, since they are expensive and unnecessarily formalized using elementary math, which doesn't really add anything to the material itself. There's however a good book on monetary economics by Mishkin called Economics of Money, Banking and Financial Markets, which is really good, but the Khan Academy videos on banking mostly cover the same material.
Personally I've learned a lot from reading economic history. Some books I can recommend are: Eichengreen - Globalizing Capital: A History of the International Monetary System
Frieden - Global Capitalism: Its Fall and Rise in the Twentieth Century
Soros - Alchemy of Finance (skip the first couple of chapters on his reflexivity theory, but the 'diary' chapters are a gold mine)
Ferguson - The Ascent of Money (probably a good book to start, the others might be harder to completely grasp for a beginner)
Some other good book I can recommend (not history books) are: The Secrets of Economic Indicators: Hidden Clues to Future Economic Trends and Investment Opportunities by Baumohl
Inside the House of Money by Drobny (mostly about global macro trading, but you would learn a lot about economics along the way, would only recommend this after having built up some basic knowledge though)
Most importantly you should start reading the Economist, which has really high quality economics and finance articles, but is released only weekly and offers a good trade off with regards to time commitment and knowledge about what's going on in the world. Note that you will probably need to know some basics in order to understand everything, but you can look up things along the way. Economics really isn't hard to learn if you have a technical background.
[1] https://www.youtube.com/user/khanacademy/playlists?view=50&s...
After that, the world reverts back to what it was doing.
My point is that this is no underlying weakness in the global economy. It's more like a slow moving natural disaster.
I'll admit I don't feel super confident that this is how things work. Happy to be corrected!
Unfortunately, this is not at all true. There is a tremendous amount of debt in the system and we are on the precipice of a credit crisis that could wipe out a significant chunk of the global economy.
I only meant that the virus event doesn't add any fundamental flaw.
This is why many people are arguing for (and some countries have instituted) debt and rent cancellation for this period of time. That helps avoid tipping the scale and crushing a large portion of the population under the mountains of debt they already have. The US is also quite unique (in the worst possible way) in the massive amounts of medical and student loan debt that folks are saddled with.
[1]: https://www.cnbc.com/2019/01/23/most-americans-dont-have-the...
If many countries see their currency completely failing, they may be forced to look for radical changes. Which could mean some countries decide they must try to move away from the dollar as reserve. And that's the type of thing that could lead to a global war.
So I really, really hope that people are aware that money needs to work for everyone and act accordingly.
Personally I believe that there are fundamental structural issues with the current system, and it needs an upgrade to correct those issues and to be much more technologically sophisticated. The new system must also have sustainability as one of its core tenets.
What I think will happen is more countries crashing and burning, followed by half-assed sovereign debt relief. Whether we actually get to a world war, who knows.
If you're well off now you'll be fine. If you're decently off in a wealthy country you'll be fine too. If you're one of the precariously employed and healthcare-less workers in a country like the US you will suffer and might die. If you are a precariously employed person in a poor country you'll watch many friends and family die.
Think what happens in Italy, a country with one of the best healthcare systems in the world, hitting South Sudan. Don't confuse your reality with how it will hit the rest of the world.
But I was only trying to think about the economic consequences for the survivors, after whatever is to come is over.
That may be the least prepared country for it.
In fact, there is a massive global debt problem that has been building for many decades.
I also think 4 months is very optimistic, I bet things aren't "normal" for over a year.
Scavenging, Mushroom picker, Hunter, Under Ground Bunker Specialist, Medic, Combat/Army specialist, Tinkerer, etc.
Hmm, anyone have any tips about what to do if this actually just overwhelms and depresses you? I can deal emotionally with my own problems fairly well. But when I start thinking about the wide spread suffering among both the people I know and care about as well as the world at large,I get immediately overwhelmed and start to shut down.
Stoicism helped me get out of my own head.
Why? As far as I know there's no underlying systemic financial reason for a depression or recession. The virus sucks. Some companies will no doubt have a bad quarter or two. But viruses pass, and this one will too.
> I'm afraid that in this new reality my software/management skills won't be of any use in 6 months.
That seems hyperbolic.
That seems like an understatement. 99.9% of businesses in the USA are small businesses. Most that I know will be lucky to survive a month of this, without serious government assistance.