> Overall, the Ford’s estimated lifetime operations and sustainment costs have grown to $123 billion from $77.3 billion, the most of six programs GAO evaluated.
Because, after you remove the cost of having the crew and supplying them with basic maintenance parts, it gives you an idea of how many people on the ground are needed to support each person onboard, just to supply expensive parts that are being constantly burned through.
Ideally this supply of burned-up parts would not be particularly huge.
But I didn't realize that number was for a full fifty years, so I'll take back the 'ridiculous'. It's still a whole lot.
People are having a lot of fun with this headline, and it is shockingly expensive, but it's pretty important to point out that the costly "flush" is a periodic maintenance procedure. It doesn't literally cost $400k every time someone flushes a toilet.
It is confusing as written - the $400k us for the occasional system flush, not per each flush of each sailor. I get that they wanted the word-play, but it would have been clearer to just write “400k for a periodic system flush”, instead of un/intentionally obfuscating it.
Yeah, periodic $400K maintenance on a sewage system serving 4,000 people actually sounds kind of reasonable and is one of the least troublesome things in the GAO report [1].
I'm a lot more concerned about things like this:
> In an effort to improve sustainment of the LPD 17 class ships, the Navy decided to install titanium piping to carry seawater for firefighting and to cool machinery instead of copper-nickel piping because of its lighter
weight and increased durability. However, instead of saving effort in sustainment, these pipes required more maintenance effort than planned and, in many cases, eventually had to be replaced. Early in the acquisition process, the Navy studied this decision and discovered that unlike copper-nickel piping, titanium piping carrying seawater is susceptible to “biofouling” — meaning sea life such as shellfish grow inside
the pipes. To prevent biofouling, Navy engineers determined that a chlorination
system — which adds chlorine to seawater entering the ship in order to kill
biological material in the water — and a dechlorination system — which
removes the chlorine before the seawater is dumped from the ship — would be needed and included specifications for the shipbuilder to install
these systems. Then, according to shipbuilding program officials, after the
ship was on contract, the shipbuilder reported to the Navy that it could not find suitable chlorination and dechlorination systems. The program office
decided to proceed with ship construction absent these systems and
evaluate the extent of the biofouling problem after ship delivery ... Biofouling degraded the functionality of a number of other
systems on the ship that depend on the water delivered by the piping
system, resulting in overheating of main and ship service engines and
loss of electric power generation, among other problems. To address
these and related issues across the LPD 17 class, the Navy’s fleet spent
at least $250 million to: (1) buy and install new copper-nickel piping that is
now costlier, heavier, and not as durable as titanium; (2) install
chlorination systems that were later found to be unreliable, requiring
significant maintenance; and (3) conduct unplanned maintenance and
replace systems that broke due to shellfish contamination, among other
interventions.
Or this:
> The Navy used a new design for CVN 77’s stores elevators, which are
used to move provisions between decks. However, among other
issues, the elevators are too small to fit a standard sized pallet jack.
Thus, provisions cannot be loaded or unloaded with a pallet jack or a
forklift and must be manually unpacked and stacked by hand on to the
elevator. Unloading is further complicated, according to the ship’s
crew, because the elevator doors are so small that the average sailor
cannot stand up as they enter and exit the elevator.
This is wild. You really only need the first and (weirdly) last paragraphs though:
> "New toilets on the Navy’s two newest aircraft carriers clog so frequently that the ships’ sewage systems must be cleaned periodically with specialized acids costing about $400,000 a flush, according to a new congressional audit outlining $130 billion in underestimated long-term maintenance costs."
> ...
> “The pipes are too narrow and when there are a bunch of sailors flushing the toilet at the same time, like in the morning, the suction doesn’t work,” said Oakley. “The Navy didn’t anticipate this problem.”
This isn't an apartment block. That's a combat ship. If they see a problem they might even fix it with administrative measures like locking out a part of bathrooms to limit their peak load, that's it. There are strict space and weight concerns, especially as any weight on a ship, especially top weight, pulls a lot, lot of other weight with it...
I don't know whether to laugh or cry. I operated such a system on a US Navy ship. I have mixed feelings about it.
There are rubber flappers that needs to be replaced often to maintain the vacuum. It's just a simple piece of rubber in an easy-to-produce shape. The price per flapper in the inventory system was $200-something.
“New toilets on the Navy’s two newest aircraft carriers clog so frequently that the ships’ sewage systems must be cleaned periodically with specialized acids costing about $400,000 a flush..... The pipes are too narrow and when there are a bunch of sailors flushing the toilet at the same time, like in the morning, the suction doesn’t work,” said Oakley. “The Navy didn’t anticipate this problem.”
Sure you can quantify the cost of the flush job. Harder to quantify is the cumulative stress put on sailors due to basics things like toilet not working properly.
My home toilet is serviceable, but it isn't great. So I absolutely adore powerful toilet flush at our corporate office. It's like airplane toilet at sea level.
Yes, another example of scandalous but misleading article headline. Reading along, the astronomical cost is in fact quite understandable:
> while the actual cost of the toilet cover is relatively low, it’s not something a manufacturer regularly produces. So the company ends up halting other production to make the cover, and the government ends up paying the costs of lost production. [...] C-5 is an old aircraft with limited manufacturing resources. Producing a new latrine cover required reverse-engineering the part, with new drawings and recasting a new mold. And since so few replacements are needed, the amortized cost is high.
Also:
> toilet covers, which can be 3D printed for $300 [...] service is looking at ways to bring down those costs by turning to methods such as 3D printing. [...] “We are reproducing those parts now, so we are no longer buying seats at that price,” Air Force spokesperson said.
So by the time the article was written the $10k toilet cover was in fact history.
A year's worth of FAANG salary flushed down the drain every time someone drops too heavy a deuce. As far as government waste goes, this example is very impressive, and should take the crown from $30K toilet seats, $5K screwdrivers and $1300 coffee cups. And if you want to audit it, you can do so for a small fee of $400M:
Aside: do the US really still need carriers to project air power? I wonder where in the world the US can't just lean on a local ally to provide an airbase + some cash.
Air power is pretty much the transfer of explosives from one place to another. In other words, a carrier is a better battleship than a battleship.
In modern times, however, a ship with a bunch of missiles is a better carrier than a carrier. An electronic circuit board is a braver and more accurate pilot than a pilot.
Even better, cut out the middle man. Forget the ship, just send the missiles directly from home to the enemy.
Just place all toilets at the outside wall of the ship and have them go to the bathroom right into the ocean. the waste will trivially dilute in 352 quintillion gallons of water.
35 comments
[ 4.9 ms ] story [ 127 ms ] threadThat's an expensive boat.
Ideally this supply of burned-up parts would not be particularly huge.
But I didn't realize that number was for a full fifty years, so I'll take back the 'ridiculous'. It's still a whole lot.
I'm a lot more concerned about things like this:
> In an effort to improve sustainment of the LPD 17 class ships, the Navy decided to install titanium piping to carry seawater for firefighting and to cool machinery instead of copper-nickel piping because of its lighter weight and increased durability. However, instead of saving effort in sustainment, these pipes required more maintenance effort than planned and, in many cases, eventually had to be replaced. Early in the acquisition process, the Navy studied this decision and discovered that unlike copper-nickel piping, titanium piping carrying seawater is susceptible to “biofouling” — meaning sea life such as shellfish grow inside the pipes. To prevent biofouling, Navy engineers determined that a chlorination system — which adds chlorine to seawater entering the ship in order to kill biological material in the water — and a dechlorination system — which removes the chlorine before the seawater is dumped from the ship — would be needed and included specifications for the shipbuilder to install these systems. Then, according to shipbuilding program officials, after the ship was on contract, the shipbuilder reported to the Navy that it could not find suitable chlorination and dechlorination systems. The program office decided to proceed with ship construction absent these systems and evaluate the extent of the biofouling problem after ship delivery ... Biofouling degraded the functionality of a number of other systems on the ship that depend on the water delivered by the piping system, resulting in overheating of main and ship service engines and loss of electric power generation, among other problems. To address these and related issues across the LPD 17 class, the Navy’s fleet spent at least $250 million to: (1) buy and install new copper-nickel piping that is now costlier, heavier, and not as durable as titanium; (2) install chlorination systems that were later found to be unreliable, requiring significant maintenance; and (3) conduct unplanned maintenance and replace systems that broke due to shellfish contamination, among other interventions.
Or this:
> The Navy used a new design for CVN 77’s stores elevators, which are used to move provisions between decks. However, among other issues, the elevators are too small to fit a standard sized pallet jack. Thus, provisions cannot be loaded or unloaded with a pallet jack or a forklift and must be manually unpacked and stacked by hand on to the elevator. Unloading is further complicated, according to the ship’s crew, because the elevator doors are so small that the average sailor cannot stand up as they enter and exit the elevator.
[1] https://www.gao.gov/assets/710/705463.pdf
"how will you pay for it" x10000. maldito país, this country is a joke
> "New toilets on the Navy’s two newest aircraft carriers clog so frequently that the ships’ sewage systems must be cleaned periodically with specialized acids costing about $400,000 a flush, according to a new congressional audit outlining $130 billion in underestimated long-term maintenance costs."
> ...
> “The pipes are too narrow and when there are a bunch of sailors flushing the toilet at the same time, like in the morning, the suction doesn’t work,” said Oakley. “The Navy didn’t anticipate this problem.”
Solution: Re-engineer a new solution, retrofit.
I don't know whether to laugh or cry. I operated such a system on a US Navy ship. I have mixed feelings about it.
There are rubber flappers that needs to be replaced often to maintain the vacuum. It's just a simple piece of rubber in an easy-to-produce shape. The price per flapper in the inventory system was $200-something.
Sure you can quantify the cost of the flush job. Harder to quantify is the cumulative stress put on sailors due to basics things like toilet not working properly.
My home toilet is serviceable, but it isn't great. So I absolutely adore powerful toilet flush at our corporate office. It's like airplane toilet at sea level.
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/jul/10/senator-dem...
(Or adjusted for inflation: 625 toilet seat covers per flush, in 1986 toilet seats.)
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1986-07-30-vw-18804-...
Yes, another example of scandalous but misleading article headline. Reading along, the astronomical cost is in fact quite understandable:
> while the actual cost of the toilet cover is relatively low, it’s not something a manufacturer regularly produces. So the company ends up halting other production to make the cover, and the government ends up paying the costs of lost production. [...] C-5 is an old aircraft with limited manufacturing resources. Producing a new latrine cover required reverse-engineering the part, with new drawings and recasting a new mold. And since so few replacements are needed, the amortized cost is high.
Also:
> toilet covers, which can be 3D printed for $300 [...] service is looking at ways to bring down those costs by turning to methods such as 3D printing. [...] “We are reproducing those parts now, so we are no longer buying seats at that price,” Air Force spokesperson said.
So by the time the article was written the $10k toilet cover was in fact history.
https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/pent...
In modern times, however, a ship with a bunch of missiles is a better carrier than a carrier. An electronic circuit board is a braver and more accurate pilot than a pilot.
Even better, cut out the middle man. Forget the ship, just send the missiles directly from home to the enemy.
http://www.marpoltraining.com/MMSKOREAN/MARPOL/Annex_IV/r11....
I wonder if a country can prohibit a US Navy ship from free passage if it violates MARPOL.
If there's not enough suck, it won't flush, reducing the problem to absolutely-simultaneous flushes etc?