Staying in sub-par accomodation with no standards, or potentially sharing it with an awkward host; who likes to talk about their vegan diet and pet pug, or with wifi spy cameras, is not really a product offering.
Sure they have disrupted the property market and inflated rent and property prices already, which are now ironically crashing a little bit.
Support good hotels and chains, who hire and invest in great staff.
Yeah no thanks on staying at hotels where you have hundreds of people going through it and underpaid maids who "clean" tons of rooms a day. Sure that is really safe in this environment.
And your airbnb host will be any better at cleaning? Plenty don't treat it as a business and will prefer to retaliate to negative feedback rather than correct it.
The point is that your AirBnB host (if there even is a host, which ain't a given) won't be traveling between dozens or hundreds of rooms and potentially spreading viruses among all those rooms.
By that metric, hotels are substantially worse. With an AirBnB, you're dealing with, at most, a number you can count with your fingers. With a hotel, you're - again - dealing with tens or hundreds at a time.
Critically, this means that an AirBnB has a greater chance of being able to disinfect the entire property between groups of guests, at a much lower cost. Now, whether or not AirBnB hosts are doing this is a different question, but it's at least feasible for an AirBnB (as opposed to borderline impossible for a hotel).
Haha, last Airbnb I had was mega cheap and the mattress smelled of dried piss. The hosts were nice but god I hated staying there in an extreme way, felt very unsafe.
Hotels (short of the “accommodation” in Chung King Mansions) have never made me feel this way...
> Hotels (short of the “accommodation” in Chung King Mansions) have never made me feel this way...
That was probably one of my more memorable stays while traveling, it wasn't all bad though. Just not something comparable to other places I've stayed before.
This was in 2009, I think when I stayed was horrendous. A flying bug had got between the ceiling tiles and was buzzing around for about 2-3 minutes before banging into something just as I was about to fall asleep. Add on the blood on the stairs between the 11th and 12th floors and the crazy amount of prostitution (and I guess stolen electronics) and yes it wasn’t great.
It's up to you, the renter, to vet your host and rental to the best of your ability. Maybe don't pick a "mega cheap" place next time? I've used AirBnB tons of times and cannot relate even a little with all the complaints in this thread (and other HN threads).
My rule of thumb is I only use AirBnB in areas where there's a good selection of options. AirBnBs in the middle of nowhere tend to be miserable because there's no competition.
I am just saying if I can afford a hotel it's usually better quality in my experience than any Airbnb I've had... depends what you like though. I prefer hotels and I don't like the increases in rental costs that Airbnb is reported to have caused.
I agree with the working condition issues, but compared to Airbnb's a licensed hotel/hostel is at least somewhat regularly inspected by government officials to check for hygienic issues, fire/electrical code compliance, accessibility for disabled or otherwise impaired persons, and also for commercial insurance - plus you won't (as a guest) have to deal with police showing up because neighbors are annoyed by noise from an essentially illegal hotel op.
Hotels also can not ruin your chances of staying at another establishment by posting negative reviews about you because you happened to mention the shower didn't work.
Chain hotels do have shared blacklists, yes (as far as the law allows them to, GDPR says hello), but unlike Airbnb in every major city there are independent competitors.
Hotels do not have a shared blacklist. And generally they don't care how much you complain as long as you aren't damaging their facilities since they don't have to try to make you happy unless they want to retain your business.
Staying in hotels during solo travel is so remarkably effective at depressing me in ways I didn't know were possible (and I mean real, deep, prolonged feelings of existential loneliness and dread that eat at my core), that I just can't advocate staying at them. Obviously there are hostels at the other end of the scale when traveling for pure personal joy, but they aren't for everyone.
AirBNB used to fill the midpoint in a way that was fairly difficult to do otherwise. It's a shame it became what it became. I only had good experiences back in ~2016-17.
My very first night in Europe was spent in an AirBNB in Paris (2011, I think?). It was an upstairs suite in a house in one of the suburbs. At about 8am, there was a gentle quiet knock on the door; I open it up, and a 6-year-old girl asks me, in French, “would you like eggs?” I tell her I would, and she runs off and comes back with two eggs on buttered toast. They were delicious.
This was the very first night of solo travel for me, and it changed the day from starting out anxious (Where’s the subway? Where am I going to find food? What if I get lost?!) to starting out with a fresh cup of coffee and some delicious breakfast.
Could you get a similar experience in a hotel? Sort of. There’s usually a restaurant where you could get breakfast, but I don’t think you’re usually going to get this feeling of “someone actually cares”.
I think it does still fill something like that mid-point if you're staying with a host instead of renting your own private space.
I haven't generally had social hosts most of the times I was staying with airbnb, but I'm also fairly anti-social myself, but even just this last year, I was up in Buffalo NY for an event and ended up asking my host where to go for dinner, which turned into us hanging out the next day because he was starting his own brewery and wanted to share some of his homebrew.
Even without something like that, for me, a lot of the value isn't even in interacting with a host as much as it is the feeling of sharing a lived-in space with someone. Small bits of personal decor, or looking through what random DVDs they have on the shelf provides some warmth that a chain hotel never will. It's a bit trite, but I think you can often tell the hosts that really care about providing a good experience from how they describe the rental, as well as looking at the actual decor and the space you're renting.
You are really overstating how many people like that are out there. Compare the sheer number of hotel bookings to AirBnB bookings, even factoring out business travel.
I just think that those still enamoured by it haven’t been burned yet. There is very little [effective] recourse when your AirBnB takes a turn for the worse. There are enough horror stories out there. I personally think the value to risk ratio is way off for them these days. It isn’t cheap anymore and that makes it way less appealing.
I think a lot of it is in what your expectations are - I've had plenty of odd experiences with AirBnB, but nothing catastrophic, but I think that's because I've mostly been trying to use it for things that are not a hotel-like experience.
Generally, I'm either doing something where I'm renting a whole house in a VRBO style thing where it's likely someone's full-time rental property and has been for a while or I'm essentially looking for something barely above couch surfing where I expect to show up in the evening, go to bed, then wake up and leave for the day.
I've had plenty of minor sub-optimal experiences, but usually nothing that wasn't called out in the listing, and I've also had plenty of experiences with hosts that took things seriously and were amazing to work with. Most of the stories I've seen of people getting burned was though listings that at least personally, I would have found a little suspicious in terms of price-to-quality, and level of professionalism. They seem to prey on people who want the experience of a hotel, but don't want to pay for it.
Being burned by an AirBnB stay generally at least leaves you with an entertaining tale of OMGWTF. A bad hotel experience usually just leaves you grossed out or with bedbug bites.
I have one of each: a funny AirBNB caper and a totally disgusting hotel story I wouldn't bother telling. The latter involves stains of the uhh... lonely masculine sort... on towels. Shudder.
It's quite the opposite for me: I imagine that in a bad airbnb experience I'd feel personally cheated, get hung up in a pointless conflict or maybe suspect that I could somehow be part of the problem myself. When staying in a failing hotel on the other hand I tend to get a weird feeling of camaraderie with the staff who keep that ship going despite obvious mismanagement, underinvestment or just being at the wrong place at the wrong time. My subjectively worst hotel experiences where not that but places with owner-managers who were too full of their own perfection. Nominal staff failures on the other hand, like that one time when I ended up setting breakfast tables, they are often just fond memories, similar to those you attribute to airbnb.
It is a product. It’s ok if you don’t like it. And I agree that it often has negative effects on the surrounding community, but I don’t see why that means it’s not a product.
I don’t think it makes sense to say that a product is something that never has those sort of negative externalities because that is certainly not the case.
I don’t want to stay in a hotel because I usually travel with my family and I want to have a home-like experience with a real kitchen where we can cook and eat meals together. I alternate between AirBnB and VRBO when looking for accommodations.
Also, this article is not about whether AirBnB can work in general... it’s a billion-dollar company over a decade old. Whether you like it or not, it’s silly to act like the idea has yet to be proven.
The article is about how they pivoted their homepage to add value to their product during a crisis. I would think that topic would be very interesting to the HN audience. They are certainly acting more agile than a hotel chain; I don’t see Marriott offering online “host experiences” to their guests.
> sub-par accomodation with no standards, or potentially sharing it with an awkward host
That's not remotely a good characterization of what AirBnB was offering. Like them or not, they were successful for more than a decade because they were objectively providing a better product than traditional hotels.
Complain about the externalities of their service, sure. But let's not pretend that they didn't make something people want.
objectively providing a better product than traditional hotels
A cheaper, unregulated, tax-free product. I get that there is a demand for this but there are demands for lots of things that are harmful to society as a whole.
By what measure? You imply that their product being cheaper or unregulated is harmful to society, but you haven't offered any reason as to why. It's also not a tax-free product.
Because it lowers the housing stock in urban areas. Wealthy travellers will pay more for accommodations than the local market, so apartments become airbnbs and investors gobble up condos and housing which they turn into short term rentals. The scarcity pushes up the housing prices, but it never balances out because the locals can never make enough to compete with wealthy travellers and are forced farther from the city. The end result is a hollowed out city core.
I would be willing to be that most AirBnB hosts are not registered businesses and paying the taxes they owe... for running hotels
——
From @amiga_500
I'll add my comment here as I mentioned unearned income, which hacker news really don't like, so they gave me the fake "you're posting too fast" even though I've posted nothing for over 20 minutes.
Ah so that’s what triggers it! Same thing just happened to me!
I travel using hotels a lot, because they offer food and great flexibility for extending my stays, but right now I would be scared to share my place with other people, and I feel safer cooking for myself. Hotels have a lot of shared space that will be dangerous until we have a cure/vaccine.
Worked as a housekeeper for a large hotel chain that everyone has heard of back in high school and I can tell you that there is absolutely zero investment into staff at many big hotels.
Housekeepers at my hotel has to fight just to make minimum wage since our pay was pegged to the number of rooms we cleaned (about $2.50 per room). Managers would tell us to clock in late and clock out early so we’d “get paid more”, and most went along with it because it was 2009 and jobs were hard to find.
I realized instantly that these guys were fleecing the housekeeping staff because my checks were always just a little short of where they should’ve been based on hours worked.
I stopped clocking in and clocking out when they told me to, and instead punched my card based on my schedule. My manager caught on and started punching my card for me (which was illegal).
I calculated how much they’d shorted me over that summer, went to the hotel manager’s office, put in my resignation and demanded the extra pay they’d shorted me, which they agreed to.
I’m not saying every big hotel is this shady, but the idea that minimum wage workers are invested in these days is pretty laughable, because there’s a hundred other people ready to take that job.
Those who patronize big hotels tend to get caught up in the marketing, but I assure you that perception in no way aligns with the reality of that work.
Occupancy taxes actually really bother me because they're usually cash grabs targeting visitors who have no clout with the local officials that put it in place. It's taxation without representation, or a slightly different take on the speed trap on a major road through a drive-through small town.
Visitors are using public resources that are normally funded by taxes, and depending on the ratio of visitors to residents this can really turn out to be an unfair deal for residents - see any small coastal town whose population inflates 40% when it's tourist season.
An occupation tax is because you're using public resources and don't normally pay taxes to that jurisdiction.
It depends. Cities tend to get income from sales, property, and income/payroll taxes. Some jurisdictions don't have all of those, but hotels pay property tax, visitors pay the sales tax, and as a second-order effect, jobs attributable to tourism pay income tax. It's not like visitors aren't paying taxes.
You also didn't touch on how there's no electoral protections as a check on these taxes.
Sales taxes and property taxes pay different things. Sales tax also affects residents more than tourists, and it'd be unfair to ramp it up to compensate for thousands of people descending on your town.
There are electoral protections as a check - for the residents who live in the town. You're a visitor to a place, you don't get to change how it's run. If you don't like it, don't visit that place.
Something Airbnb and Uber have shown is that licensing for these services is overkill. There are a handful of exceptions, but in general, anyone can do them safely enough. This isn't to say there shouldn't be any licensing, but that it can be lightweight.
I think it's hard to argue that one system is objectively worse than the other when you're caught between entities avoiding taxes and licenses and entities that find ways to underpay workers that already don't make enough to live on. But I recognize that neither system is particularly constructive.
My employer was constantly violating labor laws while I worked there.
Protection in my case meant an opportunity to spend months, or even a year, taking a case to my state’s Division of Labor over a few hundred dollars. Fortunately for me, my family had money so I didn’t have to worry about it.
Had I not come from means, reporting a pay dispute like that might’ve cost me my job and possibly my reputation. Labor laws, although well intended, do not do enough to deter businesses from stealing from the poor.
If the dispute had resulted in damage to your reputation the resulting legal settlement would have guaranteed you would never need to work again. (Regular damages plus punitive damages, usually treble i.e. 3x).
The reason labor laws don't work well is because so few people are willing to actually to use them.
The realization that wage theft is the biggest economic "waste" as contrasted with the common belief that labor doesn't deserve much compared to capital was eye-opening for me.
> Support good hotels and chains, who hire and invest in great staff.
It's a bit less so now (pre-COVID), but this is the Airbnb discount. It was cheaper than hotels for a reason. It's like buying a used item from a third-party seller on Amazon. The product offering is completely valid, but the quality and support are hit-or-miss, so the risk you're taking is baked into the price.
Gotta give them some credit though for pretty rapidly releasing their "experiences" [i]. 𝖮̶𝖽̶𝖽̶ ̶𝗍̶𝗁̶𝖺̶𝗍̶ ̶𝗍̶𝗁̶𝗂̶𝗌̶ ̶𝖺̶𝗋̶𝗍̶𝗂̶𝖼̶𝗅̶𝖾̶ ̶𝖽̶𝗈̶𝖾̶𝗌̶𝗇̶'̶𝗍̶ ̶𝖾̶𝗏̶𝖾̶𝗇̶ ̶𝗆̶𝖾̶𝗇̶𝗍̶𝗂̶𝗈̶𝗇̶ ̶𝗂̶𝗍̶.̶
I'm highly unlikely to use the service but I still think it shows they can respond quickly to radical events.
Having done a few of them, they are actually great. No idea if I’d say the same thing outside of lockdown though. For now watching a tango concert from Argentina or baking with a Swedish chef has been fun. They haven’t all been great, but so far I’m happy with at least 60-70% of them.
Airbnb has always figured out clever ways to screw the hosts. When I first hosted guests were much more polite and clean. The last few years the ones I've gotten have been pretty messy and more likely to break house rules.
I'm not sure I understand how these are related? It's not as if they're intentionally sending you bad guests to torment you as a "clever way" to screw you...
More likely this is a version of the "Eternal September" problem. Early adopters of Airbnb were more likely to be "true believers" of the idealized vision of a kind/generous host matched with adventurous/courteous guests, but this vision gets diluted over time as the userbase grows. Once Airbnb reached true ubiquity, the general user population is just looking for a good deal and isn't nearly as savvy or as committed to the original ideals; this applies to both hosts and guests, of course.
It's impossible to scale a platform to 10s/100s/1000s millions without finding an ever-lowering lowest common denominator.
I think the interesting thing now is that, at least personally, I'm willing to pay hotel-level rates to stay at somewhere run by one of those "true believers". I know one of the things I look for is someone who's got a lot of reviews/a long history, but also seems to be renting just one space (or multiple rooms in the same house). I'm not looking for a deal - if I wanted to be cheap and central and social, I'd stay at a hostel. I'm totally willing to pay a bit more to stay somewhere with a host that cares.
It's more that I didn't really elaborate on the issue. They're not intentionally sending bad guests, but it's just difficult to fine a guest that damages property and many guests seem to be aware of this. They don't really care too much about being careful.
Pivoting into these more "essential" reasons for renting, like wanting to isolate from family, seems like a smart move, so long as AirBnB hosts are taking the necessary precautions to make their properties suitable for self-quarantine. Certainly a better option isolation-wise than, say, a hotel (even if you decline room service - and room service actually recognizes that you've declined it - the rooms are in close proximity to one another, often have some degree of shared air, and the lack of a usable kitchen means having to break quarantine if you want to eat anything other than microwaved food). I'd imagine partnering with local/state/national governments to provide housing for people being specifically quarantined would be another good use for AirBnB in a similar vein.
Another legit non-tourism-related use case I can see still being relevant is for people needing temporary housing, whether due to moving into an area or because of foreclosure/eviction or some other reason why they don't have permanent housing. I don't know what the process of renting or buying a home looks like with social distancing (thankfully I moved right before the outbreak and didn't have the "fun" time of finding out for myself), but I can't imagine it's particularly easy or quick. And likewise, while you'd hope that banks and landlords would have the slightest bit of human decency and be a bit lenient on late mortgage/rent payments, I strongly suspect there are plenty of assholes out there.
they're short-term doomed. long-term, (2021+) -> time will tell.
what they're planning now to do is to invent completly new business, utilising assets they have at hand (relations with hosts, but this is it).
their 'online experiences' is a lesson on 'wishful thinking' or 'painting the grass green'. Quoting article: "we have nearly 100 hosts offering experiences online and thousands more who’ve offered to host experiences".
Let me remind them, that they have at least THREE..FOUR ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE bigger hosts number (problem 1), there is no space in youtube/twitch area for that amount of content creators (problem 2), and most hosts can't do it (problem 3).
I wonder what knock on effects there will be for this part of the economy. How many towns and cities have a significant chunk of real estate that was purchased exclusively for Airbnb rentals that may eventually get foreclosed as a result of this? What will be the impact to surrounding real estate markets?
Seems like it would only be positive if more housing became available for locals?
For myself, I'm hoping Airbnb go bankrupt. In my mind, they're similar to Uber in that their only true innovation is a willingness to disregard local laws.
There was an article in NYT that was discussed here a couple months ago that talked about early employees losing their equity is AirBnB didn't go public by 2020. Does anyone know more details about that?
Airbnb must be making ZERO dollars right now. Wonder how long they can survive in this situation. They sure have a lot of funding but they were close to going public and returning money to their investors. If this continues they will need to raise more cash and that round is going to be severely discounted.
In general I am not sure how their business will pan out over the next year or so.
Not zero dollars, but certainly less. I'm in an Airbnb in The Canary Islands, and will be through at least May. When I found out the lockdown was happening, I scrambled to rent Airbnbs thru May because I didn't have a place to return to, and staying in Spain felt safer to me than returning to the USA.
I was in an AirBnB abroad when the lockdowns started and I'll likely be in one again soon (I have no permanent residence currently and am staying with family). Unfortunately, some cities are putting limitations on rentals so I may have limited options.
I totally agree. However that is not what it became. This cannot have been a surprise to AirBnb, as it must have required huge lobbying across many countries.
The three stages of airbnb:
- actual sharing of spare capacity on a temporary basis (for example effectively a house swap while on holiday)
- rental of permanent properties by "early adopters" who saw the loophole and the gap in the market
- inundation of full time speculators who own many properties and lots of highly leveraged "owners" who have one or a handful of properties, plus landlords who couldn't add up and had negative yield on their long-term rentals and bailed to short term
The last layer here are going to get hit hard. Many will retreat to long-term rentals again, which will see rents fall. For those who already had negative yield before moving to airbnb, this will be even worse now.
Also many airbnb rentiers will have a low skill set, with bad qualifications. They got into it because it seemed like easy money, and they will be the first to suffer in the coming recession. Forced sellers.
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I'll add my comment here as I mentioned unearned income, which hacker news really don't like, so they gave me the fake "you're posting too fast" even though I've posted nothing for over 20 minutes.
They used Ireland as a proxy to avoid tax? God these people have zero shame.
Here in Germany, the last mentioned tier will also have looked fondly upon getting the money wired in from Ireland and may have lived with the assumption that they don't have to think about taxes at all. At least some of the "owners" of those basic, Ikea-equipped flats did not really strike me as being quite up to it. There has also grown a job market for "room service" agencies, cleaning and equipping AirBnB rental objects for many "owners". I've seen their actual check lists (think restroom cleaning checklist) pinned to the object's door.
My biggest gripe with AirBnb is the search functionality. Sure, you are a premium product, so you can price gouge my millennial bank account all you want. But at least give me the functionality that I need. As a software engineer, I need a place with good wifi. Hosts always claim to have wifi, but no indication of quality. Before I knew how to be a super user, it wasn't uncommon to show up to a listing that claimed to have wifi and only find out that it was coming from the building next door and you could only pick up a signal while standing up in the shower tub.
The most reliable way to find out who actually had good wifi was by searching the reviews for the term "wifi". However, AirBnb refuses to implement the ability to filter your results by terms inside review. They claim that it's because it's too technically difficult to implement this. I am no search guru, but I have fired up an Elastic Search instance to make a-one-to many relationship searchable back in my day without too many issues. I guess AirBnb's "scale" is just too awesome to to do this? I mean damn... google indexed the whole internet. You can't index your own reviews?
Then, a few months ago, I noticed that AirBnb got rid of even the search functionality on the individual listing page, so now the only way to search a listing's reviews for the word "wifi" is to go to the listing, infinite scroll the list of reviews for a few minutes to load all of them onto the page, and then use the browser's search tool.
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[ 1411 ms ] story [ 3950 ms ] threadSure they have disrupted the property market and inflated rent and property prices already, which are now ironically crashing a little bit.
Support good hotels and chains, who hire and invest in great staff.
Critically, this means that an AirBnB has a greater chance of being able to disinfect the entire property between groups of guests, at a much lower cost. Now, whether or not AirBnB hosts are doing this is a different question, but it's at least feasible for an AirBnB (as opposed to borderline impossible for a hotel).
Hotels (short of the “accommodation” in Chung King Mansions) have never made me feel this way...
That was probably one of my more memorable stays while traveling, it wasn't all bad though. Just not something comparable to other places I've stayed before.
I imagine being a repeat complainer is one way to make the list unless you bring enough business to be worth it.
AirBNB used to fill the midpoint in a way that was fairly difficult to do otherwise. It's a shame it became what it became. I only had good experiences back in ~2016-17.
This was the very first night of solo travel for me, and it changed the day from starting out anxious (Where’s the subway? Where am I going to find food? What if I get lost?!) to starting out with a fresh cup of coffee and some delicious breakfast.
Could you get a similar experience in a hotel? Sort of. There’s usually a restaurant where you could get breakfast, but I don’t think you’re usually going to get this feeling of “someone actually cares”.
I haven't generally had social hosts most of the times I was staying with airbnb, but I'm also fairly anti-social myself, but even just this last year, I was up in Buffalo NY for an event and ended up asking my host where to go for dinner, which turned into us hanging out the next day because he was starting his own brewery and wanted to share some of his homebrew.
Even without something like that, for me, a lot of the value isn't even in interacting with a host as much as it is the feeling of sharing a lived-in space with someone. Small bits of personal decor, or looking through what random DVDs they have on the shelf provides some warmth that a chain hotel never will. It's a bit trite, but I think you can often tell the hosts that really care about providing a good experience from how they describe the rental, as well as looking at the actual decor and the space you're renting.
I don't know - I have a lot of colleagues who love meeting a wacky host and their dog, and like the varying accommodation styles.
It's not my cup of tea either, but a lot of people genuinely seem to love the vibe and don't want to go back to hotels.
I just think that those still enamoured by it haven’t been burned yet. There is very little [effective] recourse when your AirBnB takes a turn for the worse. There are enough horror stories out there. I personally think the value to risk ratio is way off for them these days. It isn’t cheap anymore and that makes it way less appealing.
Generally, I'm either doing something where I'm renting a whole house in a VRBO style thing where it's likely someone's full-time rental property and has been for a while or I'm essentially looking for something barely above couch surfing where I expect to show up in the evening, go to bed, then wake up and leave for the day.
I've had plenty of minor sub-optimal experiences, but usually nothing that wasn't called out in the listing, and I've also had plenty of experiences with hosts that took things seriously and were amazing to work with. Most of the stories I've seen of people getting burned was though listings that at least personally, I would have found a little suspicious in terms of price-to-quality, and level of professionalism. They seem to prey on people who want the experience of a hotel, but don't want to pay for it.
I have one of each: a funny AirBNB caper and a totally disgusting hotel story I wouldn't bother telling. The latter involves stains of the uhh... lonely masculine sort... on towels. Shudder.
I don’t think it makes sense to say that a product is something that never has those sort of negative externalities because that is certainly not the case.
Also, this article is not about whether AirBnB can work in general... it’s a billion-dollar company over a decade old. Whether you like it or not, it’s silly to act like the idea has yet to be proven.
The article is about how they pivoted their homepage to add value to their product during a crisis. I would think that topic would be very interesting to the HN audience. They are certainly acting more agile than a hotel chain; I don’t see Marriott offering online “host experiences” to their guests.
That's not remotely a good characterization of what AirBnB was offering. Like them or not, they were successful for more than a decade because they were objectively providing a better product than traditional hotels.
Complain about the externalities of their service, sure. But let's not pretend that they didn't make something people want.
A cheaper, unregulated, tax-free product. I get that there is a demand for this but there are demands for lots of things that are harmful to society as a whole.
By what measure? You imply that their product being cheaper or unregulated is harmful to society, but you haven't offered any reason as to why. It's also not a tax-free product.
I would be willing to be that most AirBnB hosts are not registered businesses and paying the taxes they owe... for running hotels
——
From @amiga_500
I'll add my comment here as I mentioned unearned income, which hacker news really don't like, so they gave me the fake "you're posting too fast" even though I've posted nothing for over 20 minutes.
Ah so that’s what triggers it! Same thing just happened to me!
Housekeepers at my hotel has to fight just to make minimum wage since our pay was pegged to the number of rooms we cleaned (about $2.50 per room). Managers would tell us to clock in late and clock out early so we’d “get paid more”, and most went along with it because it was 2009 and jobs were hard to find.
I realized instantly that these guys were fleecing the housekeeping staff because my checks were always just a little short of where they should’ve been based on hours worked.
I stopped clocking in and clocking out when they told me to, and instead punched my card based on my schedule. My manager caught on and started punching my card for me (which was illegal).
I calculated how much they’d shorted me over that summer, went to the hotel manager’s office, put in my resignation and demanded the extra pay they’d shorted me, which they agreed to.
I’m not saying every big hotel is this shady, but the idea that minimum wage workers are invested in these days is pretty laughable, because there’s a hundred other people ready to take that job.
Those who patronize big hotels tend to get caught up in the marketing, but I assure you that perception in no way aligns with the reality of that work.
Occupancy taxes actually really bother me because they're usually cash grabs targeting visitors who have no clout with the local officials that put it in place. It's taxation without representation, or a slightly different take on the speed trap on a major road through a drive-through small town.
An occupation tax is because you're using public resources and don't normally pay taxes to that jurisdiction.
You also didn't touch on how there's no electoral protections as a check on these taxes.
There are electoral protections as a check - for the residents who live in the town. You're a visitor to a place, you don't get to change how it's run. If you don't like it, don't visit that place.
Something Airbnb and Uber have shown is that licensing for these services is overkill. There are a handful of exceptions, but in general, anyone can do them safely enough. This isn't to say there shouldn't be any licensing, but that it can be lightweight.
Protection in my case meant an opportunity to spend months, or even a year, taking a case to my state’s Division of Labor over a few hundred dollars. Fortunately for me, my family had money so I didn’t have to worry about it.
Had I not come from means, reporting a pay dispute like that might’ve cost me my job and possibly my reputation. Labor laws, although well intended, do not do enough to deter businesses from stealing from the poor.
The reason labor laws don't work well is because so few people are willing to actually to use them.
> Support good hotels and chains, who hire and invest in great staff.
It's a bit less so now (pre-COVID), but this is the Airbnb discount. It was cheaper than hotels for a reason. It's like buying a used item from a third-party seller on Amazon. The product offering is completely valid, but the quality and support are hit-or-miss, so the risk you're taking is baked into the price.
I'm highly unlikely to use the service but I still think it shows they can respond quickly to radical events.
[i] https://www.airbnb.ca/s/experiences/online
This is discussed in the text of the very first question in the article
It's impossible to scale a platform to 10s/100s/1000s millions without finding an ever-lowering lowest common denominator.
Another legit non-tourism-related use case I can see still being relevant is for people needing temporary housing, whether due to moving into an area or because of foreclosure/eviction or some other reason why they don't have permanent housing. I don't know what the process of renting or buying a home looks like with social distancing (thankfully I moved right before the outbreak and didn't have the "fun" time of finding out for myself), but I can't imagine it's particularly easy or quick. And likewise, while you'd hope that banks and landlords would have the slightest bit of human decency and be a bit lenient on late mortgage/rent payments, I strongly suspect there are plenty of assholes out there.
what they're planning now to do is to invent completly new business, utilising assets they have at hand (relations with hosts, but this is it).
their 'online experiences' is a lesson on 'wishful thinking' or 'painting the grass green'. Quoting article: "we have nearly 100 hosts offering experiences online and thousands more who’ve offered to host experiences".
Let me remind them, that they have at least THREE..FOUR ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE bigger hosts number (problem 1), there is no space in youtube/twitch area for that amount of content creators (problem 2), and most hosts can't do it (problem 3).
For myself, I'm hoping Airbnb go bankrupt. In my mind, they're similar to Uber in that their only true innovation is a willingness to disregard local laws.
five stars hotel like westin sells a 2days voucher for 1mil rupiah (~70 usd), valid until dec 31, 2021.
In general I am not sure how their business will pan out over the next year or so.
Because of better adherence to social distancing rules? Are you a SWE working remotely?
The three stages of airbnb:
- actual sharing of spare capacity on a temporary basis (for example effectively a house swap while on holiday)
- rental of permanent properties by "early adopters" who saw the loophole and the gap in the market
- inundation of full time speculators who own many properties and lots of highly leveraged "owners" who have one or a handful of properties, plus landlords who couldn't add up and had negative yield on their long-term rentals and bailed to short term
The last layer here are going to get hit hard. Many will retreat to long-term rentals again, which will see rents fall. For those who already had negative yield before moving to airbnb, this will be even worse now.
Also many airbnb rentiers will have a low skill set, with bad qualifications. They got into it because it seemed like easy money, and they will be the first to suffer in the coming recession. Forced sellers.
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I'll add my comment here as I mentioned unearned income, which hacker news really don't like, so they gave me the fake "you're posting too fast" even though I've posted nothing for over 20 minutes.
They used Ireland as a proxy to avoid tax? God these people have zero shame.
The most reliable way to find out who actually had good wifi was by searching the reviews for the term "wifi". However, AirBnb refuses to implement the ability to filter your results by terms inside review. They claim that it's because it's too technically difficult to implement this. I am no search guru, but I have fired up an Elastic Search instance to make a-one-to many relationship searchable back in my day without too many issues. I guess AirBnb's "scale" is just too awesome to to do this? I mean damn... google indexed the whole internet. You can't index your own reviews?
Then, a few months ago, I noticed that AirBnb got rid of even the search functionality on the individual listing page, so now the only way to search a listing's reviews for the word "wifi" is to go to the listing, infinite scroll the list of reviews for a few minutes to load all of them onto the page, and then use the browser's search tool.
> AS: They are donated or offered at reduced pricing.
This decision was made by the market, not by AirBnB, because they can't get anywhere near your former price.
> AS: Yes, like “Sangria mixing with Pedro,” which is a cocktail mixing show
This isn't going to work.
AirBnb's sole "value" proposition was exploiting a regulatory loophole to allow offering accommodation that has:
- lower to no safety inspection
- zoned in residential spaces often with angry neighbours
Does it have another idea like this, that allows them to extract value created by the community?
I don't see any.