> It was not immediately clear if the ban would apply to clothing and cars owned by Marines when they are off base and off duty. The Marine Corps did not immediately respond to a request for comment on Thursday.
Ha. The one thing I was curious about that wasn't in the title, and the article doesn't have an answer.
Edit: Now that I'm at multiple downvotes, I'm kind of confused, anyone want to explain? I'm quoting a useful part of the article and making a comment directly about its content and the quality of the journalism, so what's so bad?
Nobody likes the flippant attitude, that's why you're getting downvoted.
As for questioning the quality of the journalism, they requested the information from the military and the military chose not to respond. What more do you expect out of them?
If they wanted to speculate in an op-ed, they'd probably write something to the effect that it's very unlikely that the military (or government in general) can restrict citizens from displaying whatever they want off-duty. This is 1st amendment but comes with a strong caveat that it's as long as there's no association with the US military. Basically nothing to suggest the military endorses their speech/beliefs or that the message they are transmitting comes from the military in any way.
Meanwhile, a minimum of six states still publicly display variations on flags of the Confederacy as their official state flags.
https://extras.denverpost.com/flags/
Alabama, Florida, Georgia, and Mississippi certainly do.
North Carolina's is based their own secessionist flag, not the Confederate flag.
Arkansas's flag is not a variation on the Confederate flag; there is a star that represents the Confederacy, but then there are stars that represent France and Spain as well!
Tennessee's flag is not a variation on a Confederate flag. That page says as much.
I have to imagine that the US military is the only military in the world that has a history of flying a traitors flag after they defeated them. It makes about as much sense as flying the anarchist's flag while serving in a state military.
I'm wondering as well if the branches use any of the conquered peoples' flags, like various Native American nations. I couldn't find anything on the web about it.
> I have to imagine that the US military is the only military in the world that has a history of flying a traitors flag
The present article gives no instances of Marine Corp units flying the confederate flag in an official capacity, do you have sources for this? The article is about banning its display such as via tattoos, pickup truck rear windows, apparel like hats and shirts by marine Corp members. Generally these thing are only enforced on base or during deployment. I do know some state run military schools had a history of displaying the confederate flag, but they’re not Federal institutions.
Apologies, I had conflated the flying of Confederate streamers formerly with the US Army and Navy[1] and later (and still currently) with various state national guards[2]. Also a decent blog post on the topic: https://angrystaffofficer.com/2018/02/13/a-murky-heritage-th...
Oh, I wouldn't bother. Just be aware that squealing "racist!" and "traitor!" in the direction of putative (by dint of race & region) wrongthinkers provides a powerful endorphin hit to some. Like nosepicking in toddlers or cribbing in stabled horses.
> Of course, castigation 1/2 of a nation as 'traitors' for seceding from a union is so problematic I wouldn't know where to begin with that.
How else should they be framed? It's a fact that they were a failed traitorous rebellion and their cause was the defense of the institution of slavery. There's nothing to be proud about.
>'First Nations' flags are flown in various capacities all over the world, sometimes related to the local national forces.
I brought it up because the US conquered native lands and natives serve in the US military today with a semi-autonomous identity (native nations vs. states). They weren't traitors that originally had an obligation to serve in the US military but rather occupied and assimilated as a former foreign power. With that being said: Do they get to fly streamers for their battles from before they were part of the US? It's a legitimate question to which I was asking for a legitimate sourced answer. It's also relevant since there's a large overlap with those later battles and the Civil War.
We've been calling the Confederates rebels since the Civil War, and we're not going to stop. Though you could make the legal argument that States have the right to secede, since the Constitution does not expressly forbid it, and any rights not forbidden are left to the States. But we didn't care at the time. Lincoln didn't give a damn about their right to secede, he wanted to preserve the Union. Who can blame him? It was expedient to call them traitors, because you couldn't really motivate people to fight for the cause of abolishing slavery back then. Not large armies of ordinary people, anyway.
So yes, we denied them their right to secede because we didn't care to have the country split in half. I'm glad we did, because they were slavers. Fuck them and their 'states' rights'.
Holy camole I'm not making an argument about 'states rights' and definitely not for the 'Confederate Flag' or for the 'South' - I don't care about any of those things - I'm talking about the term 'Traitor' as historically objective terminology.
So the American revolution was just Treason then, right?
Is how we should plainly describe it in the history books?
And since the movement to abolish slavery in the Empire was already afoot, and slavery was abolished outside the US (within the Empire) shortly after the American revolution - and - George Washington & Co. supported slavery, supported the wide expansion of the slave trade to the point wherein the US was the last place in the 'modern world' to abolish slavery nearly a century later ...
Should we commonly refer to Americans as 'Traitors' and Slavers and ban the Stars and Stripes as well? There are definitely a few who would support that.
History is complicated and has many perspectives. Flags mean different things to different people for different reasons at different times.
Obviously, the Confederate flag is complicated and divisive enough that it shouldn't be used relating to public office especially at the federal level. But to simply imply the Southern states were merely 'Traitors' (as some would have it), would be to use too narrow a lens and misrepresent that part of history. I don't think anyone in 2020 is going to miss out on the act it was largely about slavery.
I'm reminded of the repeal in 2011's of the US military's "Don't Ask Don't Tell" (despite John McCain's filibuster), as well as President Truman's 1948 directive to integrate the armed services.
The US military has always been remarkably influential, as we see when important issues of public affairs can be moved by a purely military decision. Perhaps we shouldn't rely on a warrior elite so much? (ex-USAF enlisted here)
The confederate flag will simply go "underground" in certain groups of marines lives . . . the "politically correct" bureaucrats are upending the status quo again.
23 comments
[ 106 ms ] story [ 634 ms ] threadHa. The one thing I was curious about that wasn't in the title, and the article doesn't have an answer.
Edit: Now that I'm at multiple downvotes, I'm kind of confused, anyone want to explain? I'm quoting a useful part of the article and making a comment directly about its content and the quality of the journalism, so what's so bad?
As for questioning the quality of the journalism, they requested the information from the military and the military chose not to respond. What more do you expect out of them?
If they wanted to speculate in an op-ed, they'd probably write something to the effect that it's very unlikely that the military (or government in general) can restrict citizens from displaying whatever they want off-duty. This is 1st amendment but comes with a strong caveat that it's as long as there's no association with the US military. Basically nothing to suggest the military endorses their speech/beliefs or that the message they are transmitting comes from the military in any way.
North Carolina's is based their own secessionist flag, not the Confederate flag.
Arkansas's flag is not a variation on the Confederate flag; there is a star that represents the Confederacy, but then there are stars that represent France and Spain as well!
Tennessee's flag is not a variation on a Confederate flag. That page says as much.
I'm wondering as well if the branches use any of the conquered peoples' flags, like various Native American nations. I couldn't find anything on the web about it.
The present article gives no instances of Marine Corp units flying the confederate flag in an official capacity, do you have sources for this? The article is about banning its display such as via tattoos, pickup truck rear windows, apparel like hats and shirts by marine Corp members. Generally these thing are only enforced on base or during deployment. I do know some state run military schools had a history of displaying the confederate flag, but they’re not Federal institutions.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_War_Campaign_Medal
[2] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/321951579_Confedera...
'First Nations' flags are flown in various capacities all over the world, sometimes related to the local national forces.
Totems, elements of the local culture, flags are more common than not even in Colonial regalia.
Of course, castigation 1/2 of a nation as 'traitors' for seceding from a union is so problematic I wouldn't know where to begin with that.
How else should they be framed? It's a fact that they were a failed traitorous rebellion and their cause was the defense of the institution of slavery. There's nothing to be proud about.
>'First Nations' flags are flown in various capacities all over the world, sometimes related to the local national forces.
I brought it up because the US conquered native lands and natives serve in the US military today with a semi-autonomous identity (native nations vs. states). They weren't traitors that originally had an obligation to serve in the US military but rather occupied and assimilated as a former foreign power. With that being said: Do they get to fly streamers for their battles from before they were part of the US? It's a legitimate question to which I was asking for a legitimate sourced answer. It's also relevant since there's a large overlap with those later battles and the Civil War.
So yes, we denied them their right to secede because we didn't care to have the country split in half. I'm glad we did, because they were slavers. Fuck them and their 'states' rights'.
Is how we should plainly describe it in the history books?
And since the movement to abolish slavery in the Empire was already afoot, and slavery was abolished outside the US (within the Empire) shortly after the American revolution - and - George Washington & Co. supported slavery, supported the wide expansion of the slave trade to the point wherein the US was the last place in the 'modern world' to abolish slavery nearly a century later ...
Should we commonly refer to Americans as 'Traitors' and Slavers and ban the Stars and Stripes as well? There are definitely a few who would support that.
History is complicated and has many perspectives. Flags mean different things to different people for different reasons at different times.
Obviously, the Confederate flag is complicated and divisive enough that it shouldn't be used relating to public office especially at the federal level. But to simply imply the Southern states were merely 'Traitors' (as some would have it), would be to use too narrow a lens and misrepresent that part of history. I don't think anyone in 2020 is going to miss out on the act it was largely about slavery.
Yes. Maybe you wouldn't have misunderstood it.
Which version of the Stars and Stripes?
Sure, flags mean different things to different people.
No, that doesn't make it complicated, it didn't stop other flags from being banned.
Begin with 40% of the confederacy was black.
https://www.military.com/undertheradar/2018/10/03/ten-army-b...
The US military has always been remarkably influential, as we see when important issues of public affairs can be moved by a purely military decision. Perhaps we shouldn't rely on a warrior elite so much? (ex-USAF enlisted here)