Thanks to Alyssa Rosenzweig and the Panfrost team for reverse-engineering the Mali GPU.
We can start moving out of the Intel/AMD backdoors and start to equip ourselves and our communities with trustworthy computers : ARM-based for now, RISC-V-based for later.
There are three major revisions of Mali GPUs: Utgard (-4), Midgard (-T) and Bifrost (-G*).
There were 2 reverse engineering efforts. Lima (Utgard) and Panfrost project (Midgard and Bitfrost). Both were included in Mesa 19.1.
And the "long term" is not about "every pinebook will have a reverse-engineered GPU in the future", but : "if you buy these GPU, you know every compilers you write that makes special uses of the specific GPU capabilities will never need you to install the new proprietary CUDA driver to continue your optimization, no blob in this part..."
Also : You can run Linux-libre, thus riding the FSF train (GuixSD) and stop caring about not-free hardware.
The same thing that "assures the trustworthiness" of every other computer ever made: nothing. What is the purpose of asking a question so vague as to be unanswerable?
It's not "so vague as to be unanswerable". It's an explicit response to the implication that non-Intel/AMD systems somehow lack backdoors. What's the absolute proof that this laptop (or some future RISC-V based one) lacks a backdoor?
1. Large portions of the firmware and bootloader are open source. RAM initialization currently requires a blob from rockchip, but that too may not be needed in the future.
2. The GPU is usable with open source graphics drivers.
3. There is no equivalent to the IME or PSP that is present on x86 platforms.
My idea is that a pool of free-hardware computer can be used to build up some community networks and clusters of hardware sharing their resources.
If you run a GNUnet node on a RISC-V router running seL4 [0] to log into your bank account, then it's pretty useless if your laptop runs an Intel CPU that access your keystrokes. Or if you use a cellphone.
But with those RK3399 platform, it's another level of security. I'd say that the pinephone / pinebook will not ruin your potential for network security. And that the trust is defined by the fab, and thus if Pinestore (and their fabs... are they located in Shenzhen ?) is doubtful, at least their design is getting easier to copy and make a trustful version yourself.
Also, I want GuixSD with GNU Hurd and seL4 sharing GPU resources for Vulkan rendering in the community. Not all this is ready yet, but I could never dream about it without the ARM phones/laptops/SoC.
> We can start moving out of the Intel/AMD backdoors and start to equip ourselves and our communities with trustworthy computers : ARM-based for now, RISC-V-based for later.
What is your objection (if any) to the POWER9 architecture? Granted, I'm not sure if there is a decent laptop with the chip, but it is certainly a viable competitor to AMD and Intel in the desktop space.
I am sorry, but how does an open ISA guarantee lack of backdoors?
Technically, the x64 ISA is also open. It is patented to death, but its open. There is a free document describing every detail of it on Intel's website (AMD has one too).
Can't speak for OP, but maybe they mean things like Intel Management Engine, or cryptographicly locked bootloaders (not a backdoor, obviously, but a nuisance) with keys we can't control. So the backdoor is "feature", not a conspiracy.
And we are starting to see riscv chips with similar functions. That ISA is open doesn't mean the firmware must be open. And we have already riscv devices with additional homegrown hardware security "features".
Of course, you could avoid manufacturers that put this type of security crap in their chips. But with that logic you can already avoid Intel ME by using CPUs from Via...
(The point I'm trying to make is that an open ISA doesn't really solve all our problems. I feel Berkeley folks are overpromising here)
If the problem is the lack of trustful manufacturers, then RISC-V simplify the work of any fab that want to become this trustful manufacturer.
When we talk about security on Intel CPU, it's tragic. When we talk about security about RISC-V, it's a complex problem. That's a massive improvement. But yes, the work is far from over.
I'm not a fan at all of cryptocurrencies, but there are some interesting cryptographic ideas behind Polkadot (with Jeff Burdges) and Golem Project (with Joanna Rutkowska) to use those networks security to bring trust back to the laptop/phone level.
I ordered two of them (one by accident, LOL) two months ago. Haven’t heard anything since. No order updates. Emails to their sales team have gone unanswered. Not sure if my case is typical but that might have been $450 I never see again …
You'll get it. PINE runs on almost zero margin, they collect money right around when the production run is starting, and then you'll get your product when it's done being build, tested, packaged, and shipped.
Both my orders (PineBook Pro and PinePhone) took a while to arrive but I got them both.
I'd be a bit more patient with COVID, also they pleaded recently in one of their newsletters to ask on the forum, rather than overwhelming them with emails.
Also, HK has some restrictions on shipping until June 7. You'll get it. They're a small company, give them a chance.
I don't think I got stung with that. It's a bit random with getting stuff from the U.S. - sometimes you get stung with import tax and a stupid handling charge and sometimes you get lucky.
Edit: looking at other comments, it probably came from China which tends to be better for not getting caught with import charges.
They ship directly from China (Shenzen specifically), and there can be delays sometimes. When I ordered my pinebook pro, the Hong Kong protests resulted in a slight delay. I think the lockdowns in China are causing delays currently. They pushed back the release day of one of their new hardware platforms, the hardrock64. It is sort of lame that they haven't been transparent about shipping dates, but I think your goods will come.
You’ll definitely get it, but I ordered one way back almost when they first announced then and it took months to finally get here - they are very fair with pricing and it’s super cool how open source it is, but they aren’t fast :) plus with covid, it could take even longer. They definitely will ship you the laptops though.
When they started accepting orders last February/March, I thought it was clear that they wouldn't be shipping until May. I too ordered one and am eagerly awaiting it! While I agree that email updateds would have been nice, they have posted on their website updates:
Personally, for myself, I'd be running into limits with 4GB of memory pretty quickly. The Wiki article suggests that they are targeting the market that takes Chromebooks and converts them to complete Linux machines (without chromeos bits), and I'd say that seems to be on-par with how I see this device.
I used Samsung ARM Chromebook from 2012 for Java development. 2GB of RAM was enough to run couple of Eclipse instances. Properly configured memory compression made it possible.
Whether ~$50-$100 ARM SBCs are powerful enough to make a dev machine for you depend on a lot of things. I wouldn't want one for my day job, but these would be sufficient for nearly all the coding I do on my free time.
It's in the same ballpark with Raspberry Pi 4. A bit more powerful.
Things that make an Rpi4 + 4GB memory unsuitable as a development machine: needing to use more than one webshit thing at a time (heavier versions of gmail, Jira, Asana, Slack), needing to use a heavy Java IDE, or needing to run more than one or two very small VMs locally. If you do need those things but can offload them to remote VMs with X forwarding or VNC or whatever, then they're still fine.
A Pi4 is downright spacious and plenty capable if you can avoid that junk. Which are also the same things making old 4GB laptops "too slow" for modern development, and even 8GB machines feel cramped.
I don't have one, but was considering buying one. I went looking for benchmarks a while back, and it seemed that it performed about as well as a several-year-old cheap laptop, from some guy's blog that I can't find right now. :-(
However, most reviews I've read have said that it generally performs better than you'd expect for its price, e.g Hayden James' review [0]. He later updated to say:
"""Two months later, I can report that although my Pinebook Pro still sees some usage, for the most part I’ve reverted to my old laptop. It’s a very capable laptop for the price and I still strongly recommend ownership! The lack of CPU and graphics performance was the eventual deal beaker for me. At times loading email messages in Gmail would take ages."""
After reading this, I still feel like it might be a decent chromebook alternative for the kids.
I use mine for browsing and some linux admin work (a bit of bash scripting too). The 4GB memory will be a bit of a limit and I wouldn't recommend it for serious dev work. I like the screen but I've noticed some issues with the keyboard on occasion (usually fixed with pressing harder on some of the keys). I've also had issues with one of the usb ports, but I think it might be due to me using totally the wrong power supply at one point (the connector fitted, but the voltage was wrong).
I had ordered one of the other models early last year and it did take 2-3 months before I heard that it was shipping, and then it was another 2-3 weeks before it arrived. Their packaging was good enough to protect it, being in a plastic case. I have no issues with the one I have and, pending seeing other's experience with this new model, will definitely consider one of these. Be patient, that's all I can say.
I ordered one of these just a few days ago after months of being on the fence. Very excited for it to come, though from friends' experiences (and it appears many people in this thread) I expect a tantalizing wait.
Stefan Schaeckeler wrote an excellent review of the PbP[0].
The following excerpt might be interesting to some.
The Pinebook Pro is an open laptop but also a black box at the same time. It is not possible to debug early boot problems without a serial console cable.
The cable costs $6.99 currently and is a separate product[1].
Personally, the only reason stopping me from getting this laptop is the import tax. A quick search on the Pine64 forum revealed it to be around $100 for my country. Adding all the expenses, $350 for this machine is much more than what I can spend.
It's worth mentioning they should be fully supported in OpenBSD 6.7, which came out this week. I haven't tried converting mine yet, but it's good to have options.
Are Pinebook willing to produce/manfactor the next batch in :-
USA/UK/AU/NZ/CA or even Japan
instead of using China/Vietnam/Thailand going forward ?
Or are will still living in a world of paying USD$1-2 per hour to slaves in CHINA under a LEFT WING NATIONAL COMMIE nation to help Global "American" firms and cheap labor and free shipping ?
51 comments
[ 2.9 ms ] story [ 101 ms ] threadWe can start moving out of the Intel/AMD backdoors and start to equip ourselves and our communities with trustworthy computers : ARM-based for now, RISC-V-based for later.
There were 2 reverse engineering efforts. Lima (Utgard) and Panfrost project (Midgard and Bitfrost). Both were included in Mesa 19.1.
And the "long term" is not about "every pinebook will have a reverse-engineered GPU in the future", but : "if you buy these GPU, you know every compilers you write that makes special uses of the specific GPU capabilities will never need you to install the new proprietary CUDA driver to continue your optimization, no blob in this part..."
Also : You can run Linux-libre, thus riding the FSF train (GuixSD) and stop caring about not-free hardware.
Challenging a claim made by the previous poster?
2. The GPU is usable with open source graphics drivers.
3. There is no equivalent to the IME or PSP that is present on x86 platforms.
https://github.com/rockchip-linux/rk_tee_user/blob/develop-n...
https://github.com/OP-TEE
https://www.op-tee.org/
https://optee.readthedocs.io/en/latest/
If you run a GNUnet node on a RISC-V router running seL4 [0] to log into your bank account, then it's pretty useless if your laptop runs an Intel CPU that access your keystrokes. Or if you use a cellphone.
But with those RK3399 platform, it's another level of security. I'd say that the pinephone / pinebook will not ruin your potential for network security. And that the trust is defined by the fab, and thus if Pinestore (and their fabs... are they located in Shenzhen ?) is doubtful, at least their design is getting easier to copy and make a trustful version yourself.
Also, I want GuixSD with GNU Hurd and seL4 sharing GPU resources for Vulkan rendering in the community. Not all this is ready yet, but I could never dream about it without the ARM phones/laptops/SoC.
[0]https://fosdem.org/2020/schedule/event/uk_sel4/
What is your objection (if any) to the POWER9 architecture? Granted, I'm not sure if there is a decent laptop with the chip, but it is certainly a viable competitor to AMD and Intel in the desktop space.
I know Thalos has some FSF-certified boards based on POWER9 CPU and want to offer a laptop soon, but I would not expect anything under 3000$.
Technically, the x64 ISA is also open. It is patented to death, but its open. There is a free document describing every detail of it on Intel's website (AMD has one too).
Of course, you could avoid manufacturers that put this type of security crap in their chips. But with that logic you can already avoid Intel ME by using CPUs from Via...
(The point I'm trying to make is that an open ISA doesn't really solve all our problems. I feel Berkeley folks are overpromising here)
When we talk about security on Intel CPU, it's tragic. When we talk about security about RISC-V, it's a complex problem. That's a massive improvement. But yes, the work is far from over.
I'm not a fan at all of cryptocurrencies, but there are some interesting cryptographic ideas behind Polkadot (with Jeff Burdges) and Golem Project (with Joanna Rutkowska) to use those networks security to bring trust back to the laptop/phone level.
Both my orders (PineBook Pro and PinePhone) took a while to arrive but I got them both.
Also, HK has some restrictions on shipping until June 7. You'll get it. They're a small company, give them a chance.
Got mine running Manjaro XFCE (installed on internal storage) and it's great. The screen is really nice.
Edit: looking at other comments, it probably came from China which tends to be better for not getting caught with import charges.
https://www.pine64.org/2020/05/15/may-update-pinetab-pre-ord...
I expect they are quite busy, and China / HK obviously have their CV-19 issues.
The shipping page can be helpful for when the next batch will ship.
https://www.pine64.org/shipping/
Because the pro made me think “enough to be a dev machine” but the price suggests otherwise.
It's in the same ballpark with Raspberry Pi 4. A bit more powerful.
A Pi4 is downright spacious and plenty capable if you can avoid that junk. Which are also the same things making old 4GB laptops "too slow" for modern development, and even 8GB machines feel cramped.
I use a Jetson nano with 4gb RAM. Vim and Firefox has been fine for writing go and python.
However, most reviews I've read have said that it generally performs better than you'd expect for its price, e.g Hayden James' review [0]. He later updated to say:
"""Two months later, I can report that although my Pinebook Pro still sees some usage, for the most part I’ve reverted to my old laptop. It’s a very capable laptop for the price and I still strongly recommend ownership! The lack of CPU and graphics performance was the eventual deal beaker for me. At times loading email messages in Gmail would take ages."""
After reading this, I still feel like it might be a decent chromebook alternative for the kids.
0: https://haydenjames.io/pinebook-pro-my-first-impressions-and...
https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
...so the project wiki page is probably too generic to make a good HN submission. It would be better to wait for SNI (significant new information).
I wrote about this issue recently: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23071428
The Pinebook Pro is an open laptop but also a black box at the same time. It is not possible to debug early boot problems without a serial console cable.
The cable costs $6.99 currently and is a separate product[1].
Personally, the only reason stopping me from getting this laptop is the import tax. A quick search on the Pine64 forum revealed it to be around $100 for my country. Adding all the expenses, $350 for this machine is much more than what I can spend.
[0] http://students.engr.scu.edu/~sschaeck/misc/pinebookpro.html
[1] https://store.pine64.org/?product=pinebook-serial-console
This looks very problematic as user may not expect or not know if the device they connect to USB-C will provide power or not.
instead of using China/Vietnam/Thailand going forward ?
Or are will still living in a world of paying USD$1-2 per hour to slaves in CHINA under a LEFT WING NATIONAL COMMIE nation to help Global "American" firms and cheap labor and free shipping ?