I did a lot of street acid as a teenager and it caused me a lot of problems it seems. Only did some half decent psilocybin shrooms once, more recently (but years ago), but I liked the fact that I actually came down, acid seemed to just linger and linger long after the main trip was over.
One year I did about 40 hits of acid, often multiple hits at a time, and started stuttering and just felt like I had less going on mentally. It really seemed like I had permanent brain damage. I'm not sure exactly what was going on, there were definitely extenuating factors (e.g. family dysfunction, depression etc.) but it took years for me to recover.
Mushrooms were illegalized in NL recently, but truffles, a way of growing the same thing but underground, remain legal. It's possible to buy them legally there and semi-legally ordering them online from many other EU countries.
There are places where they are legal and you have the option of planning a vacation around a psychedelic experience.
My first experience with ayahuasca was in Netherlands and the afterglow of the experience was a good 3 months. The first month my depression was significantly better, the next 2 months noticeable better. After 3 months I remained on a plateau that was higher than the one I was on before the experience. The experience permanently removed my (arguably light) PTSD symptoms (I would get tensed every time I crossed the street due to an accident on the pedestrian crossway) and a particular "dark heaviness" that was part of my days from time to time.
To get most of the therapeutic effect you need to do that in a controlled environment, there is no reason for psychedelics to be legalised the way weed or alcohol is. The difference between a "neat it cured my ptsd" (/s) trip and a "oh shit I'm going to die this is the worse thing I experimented in my life" trip isn't that big (dose, settings, &c.)
> "It's like a stepladder to look over a brick wall that's a little bit too tall for you. You use a stepladder, you get to see this crazy landscape that you kinda had an inkling about every time you walked by this wall, and then some people, you know, can sit in front of the wall, and, like, meditate, and then the wall becomes transparent, and they see beyond it, you know? So, there are many pathways to arrive at the same realization."
- Reggie Watts - Have a good trip (Netflix)
I believe that the responsible use of psychedelics could open the door to a new leap in human civilization. They are powerful tools and should be approached with upmost respect.
> I believe that the responsible use of psychedelics could open the door to a new leap in human civilization. They are powerful tools and should be approached with upmost respect.
A lot of folks believe that much of religion and early human societal organization actually originally came about as a result of early human utilization of psychoactives. It makes sense when you think about, for instance, shamanic utilization of ayahuasca and its tradition stretching back historically. As you point out, "They are powerful tools and should be approached with upmost respect." But the flip side is that, as powerful tools, they can be dangerous when not used in a safe setting. But I always am a little bit specious when folks say that "responsible use of psychedelics could open the door to a new leap in human civilization" -- the tool itself, while useful, has been around for a while.
You mean more or less severe than long-term negative effects of sugar or alchocol? And there is greater stigma for non-drinkers than for drinkers in our societies so go figure...
There is not a greater stigma for non-drinkers unless you're hanging out with alcoholics. People whose opinions you should care about don't care either way as long as you're a kind person.
I have friends that believe there is a moral obligation to take psychedelics to expand the mind and increase empathy. That’s a little extreme for me, though.
I just read I Have America Surrounded[1] a biography of Timothy Leary and found it fascinating. His descriptions of levels of consciousness are a bit wacky but I think helped me understand the appeal of psychedelics.
I assume Timothy Leary is a pretty divisive figure for some, I didn't know a lot about him before reading, so went in with a relatively open mind.
LSD is very, very interesting if you have a somewhat disciplined mind. When the border of reality becomes diffuse, you're for some reason able to reason about your own consciousness. You see how arbitrary your perception of reality really is. You start thinking about where thoughts come from, and the difference between a state (mind) and a process (the underlying biology from which the consciousness emerges). Fun stuff.
It's extra fun when you realize you're seeing fractals and thinking recursion.
Yes that's very unpleasant. I guess that's why they recommend starting slow. But it also gives some insight, as I (feel) I'm more able to control my thoughts the next time it happens. But yes, do not take psychedelics lightly.
Some thought loops can actually be life threatening (e.g. suicidal ones). This can also happen when there are no apparent signs of it during your normal day to day life. YMMV, but I was happy to have a sober trip sitter.
I talk about this in my reply in the thread but psychs have actually helped me a lot with controlling my intrusive thoughts and loops, essentially CBT practice. It's like a hurricane of them each time you trip and to stay positive you really have to practice turning self-defeating negativity into something either positive or that you realize is just BS.
Not sure if you've tripped but the thought loops you get stuck in there are insane, it's complete tunnel vision and you really need your inner monologue to stop and interpret what's going on. I often write out the negative thoughts/beliefs I start feeling then start working through whether they're true, false, completely made up.. They're almost always the latter thankfully.
"Thought loops" often produce the music that I'm most proud of making. They let me focus in on making it sound exactly like it does in my head without getting tired of hearing the same loop on repeat. I think thought loops are a rare and wonderful commodity.
Thanks, that's interesting. Buddhist meditation aims to give similar insights but apparently goes even deeper & is more sustainable long-term. Lots of at least anecdotal evidence that this is really useful. The "downside" is the learning curve & initial difficulty..
Don't let perfection be the enemy of good enough with meditation. Even if I have a "bad" meditation it's a habit and muscle I'm practicing, whether it's 5 mins or 25mins. You don't need the perfect seat, guidance, quiet room, experience or anything. As someone with, I believe, a very reactive anxiety response to things it helps more than anything I've tried in the past.
I do walking meditation and meditation throughout the day a lot more often now just accepting that noises or imperfections around me that might interrupt it or make it less "perfect" are challenges that help me improve my capabilities.
With that said, lsd is a different world completely. I've had some major ups and downs with psychadelics, that's something you have to practice. The first time I tripped I had a horrible experience. I completely trusted the thoughts in my head at that point (I was a kid, had no idea about CBT/etc).
Then I waited 15 years and did it again as a grown adult and it was eye opening. I didn't do it once, I had a bout a month of experiences on vacation and got to be really comfortable with Lucy through her ups and downs. I've found that it's like a steroid injection into my CBT practice that I neglect way too much. You have to learn to really interpret your thoughts and decide whether that's a thread you want your mind to go down, whether there is any veracity to it or if it's something completely made up; because sometimes when you go down that route you might get suck in a loop that you have to find you way out of. If you don't find you way out of it and you ruminate on something super negative that's often how people have their bad experiences.
Tripping is strapping your brain to a rocket ship and not really knowing how much fuel is in the tank. Depending on what and how much you took you might have some control over its navigation through the depths of your feelings (good and bad) or you might not (my experience with shrooms vs lsd) and just have to strap in and tell yourself that everything you might perceive as scary or confusing is temporary and a result of the chemicals and that you'll be fine once the rocket ship lands and the trips over regardless of where your thoughts went.
I think CBT, meditation and pyschs are hugely complimentary to one another. With that said, I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say that everyone should try psychs whereas yes to the others. If everyone had a shaman or mediator to help them on their first few attempts I think, sure. But you'll still have people that have a horrible trip because they take those wrong threads and don't find a positive way out. I have some friends that I'd love to experience psychs but I just can't get over worrying that they'll not handle it well. People stuck in their heads that I think need practice with more abstract thinking (eg; not believing everything their mind comes up with is true).
Bad trips can affect your pysche for months or years. They can seed the strangest, most negative thoughts of yourself that you've never even considered and you might begin to believe they're true.
edit: With this all said, 80%+ of my time tripping is me sitting outside playing guitar or at my computer listening to music and watching youtube (artists or musicians mostly) and just being in the best mood imaginable for a few hours. Sometimes I just grab my Ipad and draw nonstop, I never do that sober. It just feels so good to draw and make cool things.
When I did it again after that long break I went "I can't believe this is illegal. I'm just sitting here playing Witcher 3 and enjoying the visuals."
> You see how arbitrary your perception of reality really is.
This is the thing that worries me, as I had solipsistic tendencies ever since as a child I try to figure out a way to check if everybody perceives color in the same way. It can be problematic when you are dealing with a group of people who are really enthusiastic about something and you just cannot get the feeling out of the back of your head that what they are enthusiastic about is just some random filter layed over an reality which might not even intrinsically contain the notion of time and space.
Firstly, I think everyone (or at least, many people) has the exact same solipsistic colour question pop up at some point in childhood. It's a logical question to ask, and I'm not going to try to persuade you into any conclusion!
Secondly, if you're worried about taking psychedelics, don't take them. If you're intrigued, do more research, speak to more people, and see if your worries are diminished by the answers you find. If you feel more comfortable with the prospect of psychedelics after that, then maybe give one a try.
It's very important to be comfortable with the idea of taking psychedelics if you're going to get anything out of the experience.
It's highly unlikely (but not unprecedented) that you will do permanent harm, but you may have a temporarily unpleasant, or even just neutral, or boring experience.
Regarding your question, these feelings are more intense during an LSD trip, but it's the analysis and digestion of these feelings which, in part, can lead to a change in outlook after an LSD trip.
I advise, if you choose to try psychedelics, to be in a positive state of mind, be with one or more people who you know, love and trust, and to have at least one person present who doesn't take anything. This person is your spotter. They are there to ensure that you don't come to physical harm, and they can also help to remind you that the psychedelic state is temporary, and you will be fine, in the off chance you aren't having a good time. This person would ideally be somewhat experienced in the psychedelic experience,and also be a known, trusted friend.
I know this sounds complicated, and many may disagree with me, but it's my advice for first time psychedelic experimenters.
> way to check if everybody perceives color in the same way
Forget color, how do you know that anyone even exists? ;)
Psychs can certainly increase feelings of solipsism, but they can also make you more accepting of a relative view reality if you allow yourself to process it.
Cool article! I recently bought a book on LSD but I'm still waiting to read it. What surprised me is that OCD was on the low entropy side, because I feel like it makes the brain more active.
The entropic brain hypothesis reminds me of the Mandukya Upanishad. I or Ego is neither the waking state, neither the sleep state and nor the dream state, but the one from all these states emanate from.
I missed any mention of the potential of some psychedelics for triggering mental illnesses (psychosis, etc.) in some people.
I try not to judge users, but I think it is best to dodge the risk and not mess with your mind until science knows a hell of a lot more about the brain and the effects of some substances on it.
43 comments
[ 3.1 ms ] story [ 97.1 ms ] threadhopefully we can see some clinical trials and find a theraputic use for them within my lifetime.
I did a lot of street acid as a teenager and it caused me a lot of problems it seems. Only did some half decent psilocybin shrooms once, more recently (but years ago), but I liked the fact that I actually came down, acid seemed to just linger and linger long after the main trip was over.
Can you expand on that?
https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT03866252
[1] https://m.psychonautwiki.org/wiki/1P-LSD
My first experience with ayahuasca was in Netherlands and the afterglow of the experience was a good 3 months. The first month my depression was significantly better, the next 2 months noticeable better. After 3 months I remained on a plateau that was higher than the one I was on before the experience. The experience permanently removed my (arguably light) PTSD symptoms (I would get tensed every time I crossed the street due to an accident on the pedestrian crossway) and a particular "dark heaviness" that was part of my days from time to time.
I believe that the responsible use of psychedelics could open the door to a new leap in human civilization. They are powerful tools and should be approached with upmost respect.
A lot of folks believe that much of religion and early human societal organization actually originally came about as a result of early human utilization of psychoactives. It makes sense when you think about, for instance, shamanic utilization of ayahuasca and its tradition stretching back historically. As you point out, "They are powerful tools and should be approached with upmost respect." But the flip side is that, as powerful tools, they can be dangerous when not used in a safe setting. But I always am a little bit specious when folks say that "responsible use of psychedelics could open the door to a new leap in human civilization" -- the tool itself, while useful, has been around for a while.
There is not a greater stigma for non-drinkers unless you're hanging out with alcoholics. People whose opinions you should care about don't care either way as long as you're a kind person.
i am guessing this is already the case in certain subcultures but I think there is a chance it could reach the mainstream in blue coastal cities.
As a relatively boring person, mucking about with the body chemistry is not preferred.
If the doctor says so, OK.
I assume Timothy Leary is a pretty divisive figure for some, I didn't know a lot about him before reading, so went in with a relatively open mind.
[1]: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/123706.I_Have_America_Su...
It's extra fun when you realize you're seeing fractals and thinking recursion.
Be safe. Your experiences may differ.
Some thought loops can actually be life threatening (e.g. suicidal ones). This can also happen when there are no apparent signs of it during your normal day to day life. YMMV, but I was happy to have a sober trip sitter.
Not sure if you've tripped but the thought loops you get stuck in there are insane, it's complete tunnel vision and you really need your inner monologue to stop and interpret what's going on. I often write out the negative thoughts/beliefs I start feeling then start working through whether they're true, false, completely made up.. They're almost always the latter thankfully.
I do walking meditation and meditation throughout the day a lot more often now just accepting that noises or imperfections around me that might interrupt it or make it less "perfect" are challenges that help me improve my capabilities.
With that said, lsd is a different world completely. I've had some major ups and downs with psychadelics, that's something you have to practice. The first time I tripped I had a horrible experience. I completely trusted the thoughts in my head at that point (I was a kid, had no idea about CBT/etc).
Then I waited 15 years and did it again as a grown adult and it was eye opening. I didn't do it once, I had a bout a month of experiences on vacation and got to be really comfortable with Lucy through her ups and downs. I've found that it's like a steroid injection into my CBT practice that I neglect way too much. You have to learn to really interpret your thoughts and decide whether that's a thread you want your mind to go down, whether there is any veracity to it or if it's something completely made up; because sometimes when you go down that route you might get suck in a loop that you have to find you way out of. If you don't find you way out of it and you ruminate on something super negative that's often how people have their bad experiences.
Tripping is strapping your brain to a rocket ship and not really knowing how much fuel is in the tank. Depending on what and how much you took you might have some control over its navigation through the depths of your feelings (good and bad) or you might not (my experience with shrooms vs lsd) and just have to strap in and tell yourself that everything you might perceive as scary or confusing is temporary and a result of the chemicals and that you'll be fine once the rocket ship lands and the trips over regardless of where your thoughts went.
I think CBT, meditation and pyschs are hugely complimentary to one another. With that said, I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say that everyone should try psychs whereas yes to the others. If everyone had a shaman or mediator to help them on their first few attempts I think, sure. But you'll still have people that have a horrible trip because they take those wrong threads and don't find a positive way out. I have some friends that I'd love to experience psychs but I just can't get over worrying that they'll not handle it well. People stuck in their heads that I think need practice with more abstract thinking (eg; not believing everything their mind comes up with is true).
Bad trips can affect your pysche for months or years. They can seed the strangest, most negative thoughts of yourself that you've never even considered and you might begin to believe they're true.
edit: With this all said, 80%+ of my time tripping is me sitting outside playing guitar or at my computer listening to music and watching youtube (artists or musicians mostly) and just being in the best mood imaginable for a few hours. Sometimes I just grab my Ipad and draw nonstop, I never do that sober. It just feels so good to draw and make cool things.
When I did it again after that long break I went "I can't believe this is illegal. I'm just sitting here playing Witcher 3 and enjoying the visuals."
This is the thing that worries me, as I had solipsistic tendencies ever since as a child I try to figure out a way to check if everybody perceives color in the same way. It can be problematic when you are dealing with a group of people who are really enthusiastic about something and you just cannot get the feeling out of the back of your head that what they are enthusiastic about is just some random filter layed over an reality which might not even intrinsically contain the notion of time and space.
Are such feelings more intense after an LSD trip?
Secondly, if you're worried about taking psychedelics, don't take them. If you're intrigued, do more research, speak to more people, and see if your worries are diminished by the answers you find. If you feel more comfortable with the prospect of psychedelics after that, then maybe give one a try.
It's very important to be comfortable with the idea of taking psychedelics if you're going to get anything out of the experience.
It's highly unlikely (but not unprecedented) that you will do permanent harm, but you may have a temporarily unpleasant, or even just neutral, or boring experience.
Regarding your question, these feelings are more intense during an LSD trip, but it's the analysis and digestion of these feelings which, in part, can lead to a change in outlook after an LSD trip.
I advise, if you choose to try psychedelics, to be in a positive state of mind, be with one or more people who you know, love and trust, and to have at least one person present who doesn't take anything. This person is your spotter. They are there to ensure that you don't come to physical harm, and they can also help to remind you that the psychedelic state is temporary, and you will be fine, in the off chance you aren't having a good time. This person would ideally be somewhat experienced in the psychedelic experience,and also be a known, trusted friend.
I know this sounds complicated, and many may disagree with me, but it's my advice for first time psychedelic experimenters.
Forget color, how do you know that anyone even exists? ;)
Psychs can certainly increase feelings of solipsism, but they can also make you more accepting of a relative view reality if you allow yourself to process it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGKFTUuJppU
I try not to judge users, but I think it is best to dodge the risk and not mess with your mind until science knows a hell of a lot more about the brain and the effects of some substances on it.
Decriminalization is a must, though.