Ask HN: How do I reach making $1-1.5k/mo in 13 months?
I want to ask what are the ways with good probability of making ~ $1-1.5/mo (enough to live and still have considerable remaining in my situation)
I'm asking for ideas because the popular ideas are out of question:
- Domsetic Freelancing/Consulting does not have much scope, SMB don't seem to be doing well so site-dev work for them also isn't viable
- Making software for companies and govt. here isn't much of an option either, there's corruption and they don't particularly care about having a $99/mo solution when there are people willing to work for that rate
- More of a opinion, but overseas freelancing opportunities aren't gonna hire a newbie and fiverr is a race to bottom.
I'd appreciate any advice on how to proceed, any problem you think is a opporutnity to have a solution for or just your experience from another economic depression.
Meta: Started coding 3.5 years ago and probably have enough under my belt to try multiple projects over this duration. Made a new account as I don't want to link this to my real identity. I'm not looking for job offers out of sympathy. This is just considering the worst case scenario, and I want to have something to fall back to if it turns out to be the case.
349 comments
[ 3.1 ms ] story [ 307 ms ] threadAlso try to keep your account a little anonymous. I know of guys in developing countries that have criminals target them if they stand out as good earners.
> I'm not looking for job offers out of sympathy. This is just considering the worst case scenario, and I want to have something to fall back to if it turns out to be the case.
They are very, very far from being in a desperate situation, and they have not said that they are looking to get a foot in the door.
It's a 5 step test, you might retake one or two steps depending how much they like you and how you failed. I had a problem with my tooling doing a live coding test, could take it again within a month. Others have been told to be sure to apply again in a year. Some haven't been invited back. Speaking English at a pretty good level (not accent free per sé but you should be able to get a complex technical point across) is required.
Another problem is that most people don't use basic algorithms too much in their daily jobs, for example because collections are too small to feel the difference or because you kind of "feel" what is the optimal way to do things but you can't just whip out an optimal pathfinding algorithm under pressure. This requires some training.
But their process is a bit difficult, as another sibling comment has described. Knowledge of algorithms is required. And the second stage of being able to clear a programming test, is generally described as a significant barrier. It is advisable to practice algorithm problems before applying.
* Create info websites and put banners/affiliation there. Target a specific niche where you have some knowledge, try to write at leats 15/20 articles for 2k words per article, optimize a bit for SEO and taget the eu/usa market, there are plenty of guides out there. After some months if you're lucky you can make 100/200€ per website, with not much effort. * Sell stuff online. Is your country famous for some specific thing? Are you able to create templates, plugins, etc? Sell them online using gumroad or something similar. Create a landing page and include gumroad, that's it. Avoid marketplaces, they're overcrowded * Try to write for some tech blogs, they pay peanuts, but it's ok if you can't find anything else. * Do you have the guts to open an onlyfans porn account? That can be an emergency solution. * Scrape websites and sell interesting data. Like I don't know, a list of all the shops of a specific category in the state of Illinois for 5$, always on your website using stripe, gumroad, etc...
Many small activities can at the end of the month ammass a decent amount of money.
1. A large number of countries have agencies that will aggregate freelancers and take on large jobs. I'm not suggesting large players in the size of TCS or SAP, but smaller shops that hire out devs. It's a good place to start to get contacts into companies you'd like to work at, then move to a direct position there. Most countries make anti-poaching clauses practically unenforceable, especially if the candidate is the one approaching the company.
2. This is higher risk higher reward, but building micro-B2C/SaaS for a different market then launching on sites like Product hunt have the opportunity to bring in revenue. This is only if you're cut out for it.
Can't say much more without details, but I wish you luck in your search!
One good reference is the "stair step" approach. You can make something that a few people will pay $50-$100/month for. Maybe like a theme or a designed landing page. Then you can ramp up to make something that does $100-$250/month. Once you have those two, then aim for something that brings in $300-$600 month.
If the 1000-1500 range seems daunting, then aim for an intentionally low, but consistent amount, then repeat.
Link: https://robwalling.com/2015/03/26/the-stairstep-approach-to-...
1) People hate on Freelancer sites, but get on them and and build a profile. If you are good it will show in time. Expect to work for peanuts at the beginning - consider it advertising.
2) Don't lie about what you can do. Always do a good job. I've tried a bunch of people from poorer countries and those seem to be the 2 main issues. Dont have a mentality of cutting corners.
3) Build stuff hired or not. I watch guys blossom from jr to mid/snr after work and work. You learn by doing. If your not working, work anyway. Pick a business, and build something that would be good for them. Contact them and see if you can sell it cheap. But keep building and getting better. This is a long term game. You might pick up a 1 decent client a year, but 5 years from now you will be flooded type deal.
Good luck - I think many of have the fear of what might be if this economy truly tanks.
This is terrible advice.
Don't work for free, all you're doing is allowing other people to take advantage of you... which, they will.
There's plenty of other great advice in this topic; this: "work hard and do a good job, for free and it'll be great experience / advertising / whatever the f" is total BS.
I agree that freelancer sites have some problematic aspects, but I don't think there is anything wrong with the idea that you need to start small and build a reputation/profile. This applies to any bootstrapped business, not just when working via freelancer sites.
Unless you're suggesting that there's a meaningful difference in doing 40 hours of work for 5 bucks and working for free?
Edit: conceptually, it's nore like an unpaid internship. I know someone who got a highly paid job by first doing it for free for 3 months to prove his skills, as he was lacking formal certifications
Edit2: I honestly don't get why this is being downvoted. It's neither unfriendly nor offensive and it is relevant to the discussion, even if you might not like this aspect of reality.
And I know dozens of people who got burned by being talked into working for "exposure".
To me, that is a very different level of commitment by the company than working for "exposure" for someone who has no intention of hiring you.
People should get paid for work they do. If a task is worth $0 to a company, then they can do without it.
The whole "you're getting paid in valuable training/experience/exposure" thing is bunk, IMO.
The first thing I do when I write a game or software is send out advance copies for free.
Another situation is if you have experience but no portfolio. So you have two options - look forever for a project that will hire you without portfolio (usually this takes a long time, seen this many times), or you can complete few small projects for really small pay quickly and then you will be able to find a good-paying project way faster.
I lasted 1 year at that first company. My next job, a small but awesome agency, took me -someone with an arts degree, 1 year frontend dev experience- as a junior full-stack developer and gave me the chance and challenges to develop myself further. Now, a few years later, I earn a relatively good salary as a JS consultant at another company.
Being taking advantage of (financially) can have the effect of developing a thicker skin. You won't let it happen again after that. That's growth in my opinion.
It doesn't take the fact away that you can earn just enough to survive while building up professional development experience, which you can add to your CV. It's tough, but it can be done! Grab any chance to gain professional experience.
Also, try to stay creative! I know, it is super hard when you're broke / low on funds, there is no freedom in your head to think about anything else then surviving day to day or month to month.
The comment above about contributing to open-source is really good. There are lots of projects that would love more contributors. Also it's a nice way to expand your network.
And please, create a stunning personal website. Do some research into graphic design and try to create a professional but creative portfolio site. Next to your Github account, this is your business card.
I would like to add one thing, which is to regularly compare your skill level and your pricing to others on the platform.
You'll start at $10 an hour to get good ratings. Then you prove your skill set at $50 an hour. Then after 1-2 months of working in the same niche, you might have the experience and working speed to go up to $100 an hour. Once you reliably get bookings at that price, you're ready to hunt for projects outside of upwork.
Payment is all relative. Someone with an idea for a new social network might think of $10,000 as a lot of money, even if they want an entire app with lots of features built from scratch, which could be a months' long job. They will vastly underestimate how expensive this will be, particularly if they don't have technical backgrounds.
Meanwhile, an established business might pay $1000 for something that takes a few hours and think nothing of it, because they are thinking in terms of value to the company, not "I don't want to blow through my personal savings".
I hired freelancers at my last job. When going through candidates, I didn't look for the lowest bidder. I looked for someone who charged a reasonable amount who looked like they knew what they were doing. For example, one guy we hired charged us $400 for something that probably took him two or three hours. Considering that he was working out of Russia, this is probably a pretty good wage. Some of the bids were for $50-100, but from my company's perspective, $400 was nothing anyway, so I looked for someone with great reviews and who seemed like they knew what they were doing. I think we found the guy on Upwork, but we ended up hiring him directly to do a bunch more work after that.
I think that if you are targeting well-paying work, look for things that appeal to businesses. Businesses use Excel, so work on your skills in integrating Excel with your favorite programming language. Lots of businesses want web scraping, so learn that. Businesses might have old code written in language X. If you find the right opportunity there, it could be a long term partnership that can be fairly lucrative.
Be careful admitting this. I believe going off-platform like this is against their ToS, and technically they could sue you for it.
+1, this is how anyone sane chooses vendors. Paying bottom dollar is a good way to end up costing the company just as much in hassle and in-house resources dealing with that hassle.
What you're asking for is an easy way out. There isn't one.
If you've got over a year of financial runway, I'd say you could feel pretty happy about that. I'm sure you'll figure out something in that time.
I'm not saying it's a sure path to getting income, but at the worst case, you'll be left with something to show and some programming experience too.
Money is a symptom.
This question could be asked again MONTHLY and new answers would still arise, because situations will have changed in one or more verticals in one or more markets.
You can filter out SaaS products, and explore other business models and what kind of revenue to expect by browsing the products and interviews.
I hope this helps.
These can lead to opportunities to maintain older software, or work on very specific projects. I did well updating and maintaining ancient Microsoft Access databases for small and medium size businesses who relied on them for day to day operations.
I'm currently utilizing several contractors who specialize in single products, and know them like the back of their hand (Lucine/ElasticSearch for actual full text search, not just elk stack)
There are TONS of "Full Stack" developers out there, so trying to work in that environment until you have a solid client base is, like you said, a race to the bottom.
On the local SMB side, I never told clients I was a Software Developer. I was a problem solver who could use technology when appropriate. Ask some local companies or SMB employees what the most painful part of their day happens to be. Maybe its something you can solve with some out of the box open source, a repurposed desktop as an SMB Server, or a little software development project. These things turn into recurring revenue as you save the companies money and time.
However, it might be difficult to get a good lead on that.
Being a domain-expert (even an armchair-level one) goes a really long ways.
Niche markets are less efficient. There aren't as many jobs, and when an employer needs you, they /really/ need you; if you go into narrow enough niches, there can be zero competitors qualified for the same position. That gives a lot of leverage. The flip side is there might be zero job openings for months. On the whole, I think that's an advantage, but it can go both ways.
Contributing to open source on github may also help. Just cloning other projects is not impressive to potential customers, but small (perhaps learning) projects of your own offer some verification of your ability.
While it might be possible to start a small business around a web service, it seems to me like it is safer to continually study and improve your skill sets and learn the skill of figuring out what customers need and do that for them.
One of the biggest problem OP has is that in his area probably not a lot of people have done anything like what he is trying to achieve. And people from around the world might not be able to give good advice on his particular situation.
A very popular market might be saturated, which is a downside. But it might also mean that customers already know that they want/need exactly this, which makes finding projects extremely easy.
If you want to have the best possible salary, go for an obscure niche where you can be the best in the world.
If you just want an OK salary with not too much work, go for the most popular project categories.
Imagine if OP:
1) Picked a product/tech
2) Did a deep dive into it for 3 months - setups and teardowns, reading, learning everything in the docs, and experimenting
3) Started writing blog posts about it now - It's never to early to create content! This would help the OP learn and eventually (a long time from now) become a lead generator.
4) Started advertising as a specialist in XYZ
There are lots of opportunities to become an expert in something. People that really get themselves out there create courses and learning communities for their specialty. It would require some work to find the right niche.
Pick an open source project that is in a language that is respectable and commit to contributing to it for three or four months. Full time. Try to make sure that your written English is clear and professional in things like PRs.
Try to keep your code as clean and as well tested and linted as possible. Once the core team gets to know you a bit you'll be able to reach out for introductions to people hiring for remote jobs that you just wouldn't have had access to before.
I've seen people make $500k a year doing this. Just make sure that you choose wisely on the language and project. If you want to do frontend then it's probably going to be a project in TypeScript or JavaScript, but if you want to do backend then there are a lot of projects in tougher languages like Rust. Python isn't a bad choice either, even though it is easy to learn. Google has a Python style guide that is pretty good so look it up.
If I knew you were good at Python and you were asking for $1.5k a month I would hire you and laugh all the way to the bank. Set your aim hirer than what you need to survive.
It can be hard to find an opening to contribute in a decent OSS project that one can keep up with, especially as a beginner, with many others clamoring to do the same.
I don't know about Kubernetes, but lots of large and well-managed projects have issues labelled as "good first issue" to help you know where to start.
I chose Rails 14 years ago and have been riding that train ever since.
If I were choosing a new space and starting out, I’d contribute to Kubernetes. Lots of need in that space and I’m sure you could demand top dollar once you have a few merged PRs under your belt.
That even crazy in California onsite level and you've seen that in remote?
I liked the part about positioning in your comment, it does matter a lot.
Instead people told me to do personal projects.
Sure they are impressive, but I can't get an interview.
People who can make $500k/year through connections they make contributing to open source projects could most likely just apply to a FAANG company directly.
It is way more common to see brilliant developers make $0 from open source projects.
This vastly overestimates the efficiency of FAANG hiring channels.
[0] https://twitter.com/brianacton/status/3109544383
Is Google in the business of building open source package managers?
If not, why should his experience there mean he should have gotten the job?
(in a meek voice) ...do they use MacPorts?
Apt -- that means it's a Debian based distro right? Interesting that it's not Fedora
What if among x00 ppl actually talented enough to work there, maybe faang only needs to hire x ppl
That's no problem for faang but could be for those who applied
The point is not that OP is going to make $500k a year. The point is to be smart about the language and project that you pick and to be reliable, professional, and open to learning quickly and delivering. He's asking for such a paltry amount that even if he only gets an $80k offer it's still leagues better than what he's asking for.
Or he could grind it out on Upwork and land a $30k offer after finally hitting a client that likes him and has long term work.
Feels like your example is very specific and would not generalize to the average programmer.
It's a reliable strategy to get noticed and make a good impression. How much money you manage to make from that opportunity obviously depends on many more factors.
> It's a reliable strategy to get noticed and make a good impression.
If its so reliable, there should be many repeated examples of it happening. So far, all we have is a single case.
We complain about job interviews taking an entire day yet have no problem telling this person to dump 750 hours into something with the hope of "getting noticed."
If I was 19 today - and wanted to code for the most $$$ possible. I wouldn't be in college. I'd be building up skills + know people. Know people even tougher I'd argue for technical people who are often introverts.
It is throwaway for most people. 'Most' being >75%. Just my guesstimate.
Well there is another way to look at it if you wish, if you want to bolster your self-esteem and confidence by having a college/university degree, then do it. My observation is that most people who do not have a degree suffer a life long I-do-not-have-a-degree self esteem syndrome, despite being just as capable as everyone else.
Specifically, donating that time to a project which a company uses to make money.
- Multiple Rails contributors, one that turned core. Those folks are making well north of $200k a year.
- Ember contributors or contributors to projects around ember-data or similar. Multiple people making north of $200k a year.
- A guy that dove into contributing to Postgres. He wouldn't even share how much his offer was because it was so insane.
The point is that if you actually put in the work to projects and you network and learn from seasoned developers it's going to be far, far better for your career than grinding out little Fiver or Upwork contracts.
Put another way: Your pay is related to your skills, your professionalism, and your network. Working on the right OS project exposes you to people that are really good at software. Sure you can do the same working for money at the right company, but this guy isn't in that position. So, in my opinion, his best bet is to skill up and network and contribute. Even if he's applying to remote work positions absent a network, a string of commits to Numpy or Rust is going to look a hell of a lot better than "freelancer that did rinky dink work for marketing guys" or "I built a todo list app to show off my skills" and I don't really see why this is so controversial. I'd like to see a counterpoint, honestly. Someone here that worked on a real OS project for a prolonged period of time that has trouble finding work at a reasonable salary.
I really doubt there are many long-time FOSS contributors who want (as their top-level goal) to be paid to do FOSS, but still haven’t managed it after months/years of trying.
Most people who do FOSS don’t do it with the goal of being paid for it. Just like most people who play a sport don’t do it with the goal of being paid for it. For most people, it’s either a hobby, or a byproduct of the efforts they go to in their day job (i.e. fixes to their company’s private fork of a FOSS project, that can then sometimes be upstreamed.)
It depends how you define "doing" FOSS. Yes, certainly there are many people who casually fool around with FOSS with no expectation of payment. And even a fair number of people who have some sort of spare time FOSS hobby.
But most of the big FOSS projects (especially server infrastructure/platforms) depend heavily on developers and others getting paid to work on them full-time.
Also keep in mind that many critical FOSS projects aren't big. Many are one-man shows. HN has a habit of frequently "finding out for the first time"—to much amazement and distress each time—that some project everybody's using is just kept alive by one person in their spare time.
Absolutely. That's why the Core Infrastructure Initiative was created a few years ago for example. While I haven't made an exhaustive study, my sense is that the situation is at least better today than it was a few years ago, especially with respect to security issues. Though always more work to do to support developers working on critical infrastructure of course.
Yes, there is a long tail on projects like the Linux kernel. But a lot of that long tail doesn't individually do a lot of work. And, according to the seemingly latest Kernel development report that I have: "Well over 85 percent of all kernel development is demonstrably done by developers who are being paid for their work."
But yeah, it's hard to get paid. I was lucky enough to have a company pay me to contribute to an OSS project, but they didn't hire me for that purpose, I had to hustle for it and was blessed with a great manager who supported the idea.
I'm in the low, low $100k range. Maybe it's because I'm introverted and don't really network? Maybe it's location: Ohio, now Orlando? Maybe I just don't push myself - imposter syndrome is very real. Maybe I just like the job security and steady paycheck over really reaching for the stars?
I know money isn't everything, I'd love to contribute and be known in the community, but not sure I have the chops.
Curious if anyone else is in this boat?
You probably have better quality of life in Ohio with your salary than many much higher paid people in the Bay Area. A starter home near Google costs around 2 million.
Also in Florida and in the low $100k range. Always a bit surprised to hear these stories on HN and elsewhere of developers making $150-200k+ salaries, and wonder how I can get to that level.
Imposter syndrome is very real for me too, especially in my current role where my coworkers all seem much smarter and more technological-savvy than me.
Would also like to contribute to open source projects, but not really sure where I'd start and whether I am good enough.
100k in orlando is like 220k in sf so you're probably doing alright.
Am also an introvert, and it does reduce the possibilities, in my opinion. Still struggling with that. But trying to meet technical people who can hire or refer you is pretty useful (and try to maintain relationships like that when you leave a job).
Location is a problem. If you move to a place like BA or NY, you can probably double your salary right off, even if your skill level is rather low. This is very hard, though, if you have a family or your local social connections are important.
I doubt you're an imposter. Most of the people I met at my high-paying jobs were no more skilled than those I meet in the hinterlands. (And the brilliant ones are often insufferable.)
Rich companies are rich, so they can pay more. That's about it. There's a lot more competition for high-paying spots, but generally the people hiring are doing it pretty randomly. Having a resume that looks good and being able to talk a good game are more important than actual skill.
But some percentage of it needs to be standing out. There are a lot of developers in cube farms working with stacks that look exactly like your resume. The javascript stuff is very quickly becoming devalued as boot camps crank out front end devs by the hundred.
Maybe becoming (or just advertising yourself) as a leading specialist in one or two of those technologies, or becoming an expert in an emerging technology would do it.
new grads are getting jobs at FAANGs out of college starting at 150-200k+ tc these days.
granted these are mostly in higher col areas - sf, seattle, nyc.
you just need to get a new job if you want to make more money, it's that simple.
in 2015 i had my first job as a junior engineer at a startup at 60k. over 3 years i worked my way up to a tech lead and 100k. not bad but i could've made more faster had i just switched companies sooner.
i finally started interviewing and got up to a 150k offer at another startup of the same size, same area - my current company valued me at 100k and this new company 150k.
a year later this startup was acquired and i negotiated my way into a 200k+ offer at the acquiring company - mostly because the bigger company was bigger and just paid more in general than my small startup company.
making more money isn't that closely tied to your job skills actually. it's tied to your interviewing skills and desire to get a job at a FAANG or similarly large tech company that pays high comps.
i'm not saying it's the easiest thing - the FAANG interviews are fairly hard and require quite a bit of prep. But if you really want it I'm sure you could do it - it's more about dedication, preparation and time than anything else.
I recommend working remote.
One of the easier ways to make that first leap is to attach your name to something marketable. I did a few contributor articles for PacketPushers back when they first opened up to letting pretty much anyone write articles. Then I added something like "Contributor at PacketPushers" to my LinkedIn and published a few of the articles on my LinkedIn feed. I ended up getting hired by LinkedIn as an SRE out of it.
I also think you have to find a way to differentiate yourself by having some kind of a personal style or mantra. You aren't just out there to prove you're good enough for a job, you're out there to prove that you're a better candidate than the other people they might hire.
For me, on the SRE side, I lean heavily on the people side of things (which I find is often neglected). Which is not to say that I ignore the tech side, I can hold my own against other senior SREs. But I use that focus on people to try to edge myself out against the other candidates who are equally technically skilled. SRE doesn't do anything a developer couldn't do given sufficient time and motivation. Why don't developers do it themselves? Because it's hard (read: out of their SME), and because it takes time. That's a UX problem to me, so I frame that as something I would fix by making it quick and easy for my developers. A system that increases your availability to 99% that is quick and easy to set up is almost always more valuable than a system that increases it to 99.9% or 99.99% but takes 6 meetings and a book to use effectively.
So find your style or flair. I don't know what that would be for developers, I've never done a pure developer job. If I were going to pick something off the top of my head, I would pick abstractions. Everybody does abstractions, but if you can be the person that can frame a hard problem in a simple abstraction, that's a ton of bonus points. I would talk about the time I can save other people by building a simple abstraction that can be reused over and over again.
Or you could go people oriented like I did. Maybe you can frame yourself as the person that's really good at getting key stakeholders and your PM in a room and translating what the stakeholders want done into actionable work units for your PM. Sure, it's often a thing managers do, but managers love people who can free up some of their schedule.
I've been interviewing people for jobs that pay in the 200k+ range for about 6 years. You have to have something that sets you apart. I've interviewed a lot of people that basically said "Yep, I can solve that problem". Cool, you get to go in the queue with the 7 other people that could solve that problem, and we'll probably decide who wins later on based on who we think we would like most as a person on our team (i.e who's not going to be a wet blanket at lunch). On the other hand, some people stand out. I interviewed a guy who was really particular about writing unit tests and documentation, and really enjoyed doing that stuff. That guy went to the front of the line, because those are two things most people are bad at. I would've given him a really good rating even if he was technically less able than other people.
Once you find your flair, market yourself. Tailor your LinkedIn to your flair. Publish some dumb fluff pieces on LinkedIn about why your specific flair is important to a company. It's not really to inform other people, those fluff pieces exist to cement your position as "that guy/gal".
If I were going to make a wild guess, I think you can do it. I've worked with plenty of people that were making 200-400k that didn't write their own RDBMS at 13. They were just normal go to school, get a job, then get an offer from FAANG kind of people. I've even w...
What would be good OS projects related to C++/Python that can generate the figures you're mentioning? Asking for myself here.
> I don't really see why this is so controversial.
This is you strawmanning. "Commits to Numpy or Rust are going to look better than a todo list" never was the controversial part, that is not controversial. "Be world class and people will want to hire you" isn't controversial, even.
The controversial part is "win the lottery - anyone can do it if they just try". Picking an appropriate project is a gamble. Becoming friendly with the core developers is a gamble. Picking the right issues to work on that people might notice you is a gamble. Being good enough that they actually do, is a gamble. That it translates into a job offer, is a gamble. That some people can do it isn't surprising, that everyone can and should prioritise that, is controversial.
That you should give away months of full-time equivalent work to profit-making companies, in the hope that it results in a job paying high above national average household income in first world countries, instead of spending that time elsewhere, is a huge gamble.
Noddly should gain the respect of an open source maintainer. These maintainers receive lots of requests for job openings and contract positions. Most of it is just recruiter spam, but some of it is real and the maintainer would be happy to forward them on to someone they respect, along with a recommendation.
It's that recommendation that's worth its weight in gold.
I got more out of having a decent looking LinkedIn account.
For where I work now, our code challenge includes putting the solution on github/gitlab mostly to ensure they at least know git, but as a secondary to their gh profile, which leads to their dev and contributions.
It's not a hard requirement to me. I've known a lot of people in banking and secdef development that cannot participate in open-source, so there are definitely all types.
I don't think they were saying that most people who contribute to open source projects make half a million dollars a year as a direct result.
Honestly most of those companies don't look at their resumes. Back when I was in college I submitted my resume to one of those companies no less than about 10 times.
And then suddenly out of the blue some PM at that company reached out to me saying they came across my website and saw a couple cool projects and asked if I would be interested in sending them a resume. (Yes, I did, and I got the offer, but ended up later declining it since I wanted to do a PhD.)
But that shows that clearly the previous 10 times my resume went nowhere.
In most tech companies any employee reasonably high up on the ladder can more or less whisk you into the interview process if they know you or your work and it's strong. Whether or not you get the job depends on the interview, but you'll at least almost surely get the interview. Multiple merged PRs on an open source project by that company is a near 100% ticket to the interview. Don't underestimate the power of knowing people, even if you are an amazing coder.
And dissapear into a black hole. Even contacting FAANG recruiters directly (after they asked for it on LinkedIn) leads to zero response.
I have no idea how these companies are hiring.
Let me say what what not to do.
Context: 10 year developer in Brazil, Rio de Janeiro. Mostly Ruby on Rails (6 years), now Python (1 year).
I've dedicated my entire career for the companies and projects I worked for.
So I didn't built a profile, or strong connections.
The only thing right I got is financial reserves. So I quit from a interim CTO position (previous I was a Tech Leader), with 18 people below me, due to BURNOUT.
The only thing I got dedicating full time to one basket at time is:
1. financial reserves, that here in my country is enough for some months of food and shelter, but is less than that value you said in US Dollars. 2. Extreme BURNOUT. I'm 80% recovered after two months.
Right now I'm doing some online courses in DataCamp and Real Python. It's easy to stay focused.
Tried to start working contributing on FOSS and Tech Blogs, building some reputation, but I got worse some weeks ago, got back to these algorithmic online courses.
$ 1.5k / month for me is food and shelter right now.
Companies here demanding Spark certifications are offering this for late full and initial senior positions (I'm trying to go to Data Engineering field, because I love data).
Even big companies here are more picky than this, by not returning calls, emails, etc. 3 people from a big co. here called me, having multiple positions open right now, but no response (remember I have no perceivable reputation or connections, except a CompSci degree in a reputable Uni here).
So if you are a junior, let me say it: Build profile and reputation. Seek for good people to follow and be heard. Don't put everything in one company or project. I'm trying this right now.
Big COs. in developing countries are picky anyways. You'll need to spend a lot of energy to receive US$ 3k/month tops (it's the 80th percentile).
Try different. 10 years later you'll be much better than me.
Fuck dude, are you me?
So, consider pairing your data expertise with a business function. Really, anything from Marketing to Finance will open you up to a swarm of opportunities.
For the first one is imperative (If I want a career in a company) that I move to Sao Paulo, and I have no desire to do that. Rio is already full of mega city problems, but I manage to have some good life here.
In Sao Paulo you need to make more concessions in quality of life to land on the nicest jobs.
Remote working is something that I really desire, because I like nature, doing crafts with wood, you know, some place to get energies back. But I have a intense fear for risking my family safety by doing that.
For the second one the payment is really low. ed techs here pay 30% less and have hard time to get some traction.
I'm trying to make some demos for both industries right now, that I hope will spark some more confidence inside me.
Thanks again!
Do you mean financial safety or personal safety?
I live in Argentina working remotely for over 10 years now. I moved from a medium city (1.5 M people) to nowhere in the mountains, and can't be happier. Right now kids are playing on the street, I'm working outdoors... will never go back to a city.
I heard that Rio/SP aren't that safe.
BTW, I'm also learning Python for Data. Finished the Data Analyst w/ Python on DataCamp.
Personal safety is debatable. The city is dangerous, so as any other big city here (>1.5M). I grew up on a very poor neighborhood in south brazil, half way to BA :D, you learn how to manage "dangerous" people and places to avoid.
It's a short term loss if you got robbed or something. I've been there multiple times (ironically not in Rio), I carry a cheap mobile phone and money for transportation only.
The long term loss is not having a chance to make a decent emergency fund, a retirement fund, or a somewhat successful business.
People working for companies here and doing that three things I said are living with their relatives to make it cheap.
Including in Rio where workers for Big COs are living with 2 to 4 unrelated people near Barra da Tijuca or far away (2hrs) with their relatives.
But hey! They have snacks and videogames on their offices, forgetting about everything else on the long term.
This is by far the best way to get recognized at those companies that are hiring. I will admit it's a long sell, but it has fairly predictable results if you're steady with your contributions.
As a former college drop-out that made it into the industry this is the route I would have taken were I joining the workforce today when I was younger. Great way to learn on something real and get your foot in the door.
Note too this is possible for designers as well. There are lots of design libs floating around and contributions to those repos is so rare it's very easy to get stand out.
https://medium.com/@shinya_55783/how-i-joined-gitlab-and-wen...
I heard from my friends that because of pandemic, Gitlab is focusing on outbound recruiting. So I don't know whether the way still works or not in Gitlab.
But I concur that contributing to opensource is one of the best way to get a high-paying job.
I recommend these opensource projects: React, Vue, Angular, Typescript (because everyone is crazy about JS). If you don't fancy JS, pick Rust, Go, Deno (Deno is written in Rust), Python, Kubernetes, Flutter.
So companies should be willing to pay a fair wage to good developers. I say should - obviously this is capitalism and if they can get it done for a penny then why not - but if developers refuse a bad deal it will create pressure for them to do so.
If I’m selling enterprise software in New York and someone from New York who happens to be residing in Mexico at the moment is working for me, I’m selling $10k/y licenses and paying him 20k/y something seems off.
OTOH if he moves to San Fransisco, Kensington in London, Monaco or Hong Kong I say ah ok here’s $200k. He’s doing the same stuff!
Doesn’t make sense to me. Instead say well he is worth $100k to us, he then chooses to live wherever in the world makes sense and is affordable.
For a remote first company that’s make sense.
I too think things get weird, when a low living costs country person moves to a high cost place (or the other way around) and that now s/he makes more money (or less), although the same work.
> if developers refuse a bad deal it will ...
The thing is, I think, that it's a good deal to them
(Otherwise the company just raises the salary until it is)
To me, this is both confusing and makes sense at the same time depending on from which "angle" I start thinking
I got my biggest clients (all over the world) from there, then got into Google SoC, contributed to Drupal Google GData plugin. Made lots of money (through consulting)*, lost all in bootstrapping, rest is history.
As I mentioned in another similar post awhile back[0] I did an in person version of this and have seen it first hand from those who were online.
I've worked with a bunch of people at this point who primarily were connected by a shared language or project and relationships that developed online.
[0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21167473
If your goal is to get a job just look at trends in job boards (probably very skewed towards web/mobile/data science), figure out which area you like/excel in and hone in on that. Keep iterating on your resume, upping your skill set, and learning from interview failures. Remember: selling yourself and your skill set is more important than actual ability. That is something you can really only hone with practice and repeated interviews.
She got the job on merit. That's the important thing here.
Any example of this or good project to pick?
It is like recommending to be an elite athlete.
$500k seems outlandish, not that some aren't making that, but who pays that...
Maybe 1 in every 1,000 dev jobs can even approach $500k.
Can you name a single example project on Github where you think a Python programmer with 2-3 years experience could contribute?
Probably the best bet there is to target several projects, and then move towards the ones that seem to appreciate your work.
2 reasons IMHO: 1. It is a powerful albeit mostly imaginary image/story. A sort of American dream incarnated in SW. Everything is out there, open and within reach so anyone can do it and make it big. 2. A lot of the HN crowd are actually committers to high profile projects (this is the most popular hacker community after all) so they tend to judge by their own story or stories from their circle. I suspect though that the average dev is quite away from this paradigm.
Having tried a few times to just build kubernetes (by now I honestly believe that you need a server farm to do just that) I have to agree with the point you're making. The sheer magnitude and the speed that this behemoth is growing just makes me loose any incentive after a while. Not to mention that you have to actually antagonize with a lot of other noobs to get to these "good-first-issue" PR first. (Diclosure: I'm quite familiar with kube and an experienced dev).
And then there is the other thing. I'm afraid somewhere along the way we missed the point. OS is (was) about doing what you want with no strings attached. Something inside me is twitching in the thought that it has become a (difficult) way to get a nice job and that it is mostly controlled by big Co (which you are effectively begging to throw its eyes over you and your contributions). Dunno if I want to be part in this grind. I prefer doing my own stuff (and GPL them like the good old days).
My 0010 cents.
I'd love to find one too! :) And better yet, a project backed by a company that is hiring remote open source devs.
Great for the survivors, bad for 99.99% that did not make it. I’d be curious to know how many people tried that got nothing for their effort.
One way to avoid exploitation like this is to try to develop a number of offers simultaneously. Go in with the plan of getting a couple of offers early, and then let them twist in the wind while you develop better ones. Having an offer is good leverage for getting a better offer from another place without seeming "greedy". (Be courteous and humble, of course, or at least fake it.)
Also, the FAANGs seem to recruit endlessly, even when they're not really hiring. Good place for practice interviews, even if you don't care to work there. My offer from one got me a lot more money elsewhere.
That seems outlandish. Edge case-ey.
Outside of maybe quants, what type of developers are pulling that kind of income?
So, the subset of developers who make this much money basically amounts to "The senior engineers, at top tech companies, such as google/FB/ect"
Which.... is less unlikely than you'd think, if you are talking about the democraphic of users who read hacker news.
500k is still definitely up there, but making even something like 250k, at any of these top tech companies, as a mid level engineer, is completely standard. I'd expect anyone who has 5 years of experience, at these types of companies to be making at least this amount.
So, within that context, the people who are making twice that, would be maybe the team leads, or possible even a bit higher ranking than that.
To give an alternative way:
Find a successfull expensive software product in a country that isn't in the same language as yours.
Ask to translate it and if you can sell the product in your country. Acting as a middleman.
Start selling, get the commission.
In my experience, I've seen this work more than the one i'm replying too. And I think it's unknown in big countries, eg. The US
> Started coding 3.5 years ago and probably have enough under my belt to try multiple projects over this duration
This isn't enough information to go on, 3.5 years of programming could mean you've built your own game engine and a CMS from scratch in an attempt to do some project of yours, or it could mean you've been watching random programming courses sporadicly in hopes of landing a higher paying job eventually. (What third world country has median income of 1500$/month anyway ?)
Going off on what this sounds (because you didn't provide the info above) it seems like you aren't even close to an independent developer/freelancer but you're starting the discussion by determining your expected income.
IMO start with anything where you see you have potential to progress at any price point - if you actually have technical skills it shouldn't take you long to reach the level that matches them and if you don't it will give you time to learn.
Many of them: https://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/median-income-by...
For example, In India, fresh out of college students earn ~$6k/yr in TCS and similar companies. They make ends meet by pinching pennies. At the same time the median household income is ~$3.6k, that's what a household of a hardworking physical labourer would make and the conditions they live in aren't pretty.
I don't think it's outlandish at all for someone from a similar country to target $1k/mo. Heck, it may not even be enough if he has a family he wants to give a comfortable life.
There’s a massive difference $811 a month and $1500 month; $811 is $9733 divided by 12, though really should be the divid by at least 2, since by definition household has at least 2 members.
You can have single person household, and single income - but yeah - my point is 1000$-1500$ for someone who claims to live in a "third world country" and have no experience sounds like you have expectations on what you should make because you've seen others charge that - in reality with no experience and formal training you should consider yourself lucky to get any opportunity to learn/validate your skills because more often than not (from my experience at least) during the first 6 months to a year it will probably take more resources off productive people to get you to be productive than you will be able contribute
Experience, as in experience that a person who hires you can read from your CV, is the key for the developer's career. However, $1-1.5/month is a junior developer salary (and I don't live in a first world country either), and one year is more than enough to build a CV and/or github profile that shows that you know what you're doing. I was just recently hiring junior developers (and probably will again in the near future), and if I would see someone with relevant tech stack (sorry, I think that for a junior, matching the tech matters - although I believe that a senior can easily switch and learn), experience with different aspects of that stack (not implementing the same feature 10 times on very similar projects, but doing something different each time), projects complete and even some code on github (alhtough I work in the industry where this is much less common), he would jump to the top of my list. There's plenty of advice on how to write CV: focus on what you've done (as opposed to what you've been doing), drop keywords (but convey your level of expertise truthfully), it's all common knowledge, but it works.
And regarding remote work - now it's the best time for remote it's ever been, and there's plenty of companies from first-world countries that hire from anywhere in the world, with montly salaries for seniors reaching up to $6-10k a month. It may not be easy to reach that level, but it's certainly doable.
I'm a computer engineer with a respectable bachelor's degree from Turkey. Google has enough material to see what kind of 3rd world country Turkey is.
I found myself in a similar situation 2 years ago. I had 5 years of experience at that time. Due to my father's decreasing health condition, remote had become by only option. I don't know if it was luck or simply how the system works but in my case Upwork saved my situation 1 month after I signed up. I created a modest profile and clicked a bunch of gigs I found interesting. I did a bunch of Skype calls to present myself as approachable as I can and even took some disappointing gigs just to get used to freelancing (it was my first) without causing harm to my reputation. Somewhere along the second month I spent in the platform, one employer from another country approached to me. Unlike my other gigs, this employer valued trust more and asked me if I can join them part-time for a month, to be able to evaluate my performance without taking too much risk. I was promised the one time payment even for failure. Luckily I didn't fail. Now I am a full time remote employee and have a competitive salary even for European standards.
TLDR: Try upwork.com, maybe it will work.
Fiverr is actually fine if you can do that. It's only a race to the bottom in saturated segments with no differentiation. You might be able to apply to be a Fiverr "Pro" and charge more.
I have asked and this is at month something that can be built in about a month.
If you want to do a joint venture, I'll be the first paying customer and take care of finding paying customers for the tool.
Start small and gradually increase your rate. You probably won't get big projects or a nice pay rate in the beginning. It's fine, in the long term things will work out. You will build a reputation over time.
Impress people with the quality of your work. Even if you are working on a small issue for a low amount, go the extra mile. Write stellar code and work long hours to deliver it quickly. Your effort will pay off, as clients will recommend you to others.
Communicate. I can't stress this enough. A big problem in outsourcing is that it's hard to find engineers who are good communicators. Never disappear, update your clients often, don't be afraid to show up in calls, write detailed answers. This makes a huge difference.
In your free time, study. Practice. Become a better engineer. Don't limit yourself to technologies you are comfortable with. Learn something new every day.
When applying for a freelance gig, take everything I've said above into account. Write a detailed proposal that makes it clear you understand the problem at hand and are more than qualified to solve it. If possible, attach a code sample that demonstrates how you'd tackle the problem. Don't forget to mention you are available for a chat whenever and respond quickly if you get an answer.
If there are, there might be strength in numbers. You could organise to deliver a signifficantly larger project than any of you could get done individually. You do not need to hire anyone - use the principles of a cooperative and get like minded people that share the profits in an equitable way.
Along the same lines there are companies that may be looking to expand to capture the avilable workforce in your geographical area but lack the apropriate contacts to get started. Your written communication skillks seem to be above average which I consider quite important for such an engagement. If this sounds interesting, do leave some contact details.