Ask HN: How to develop a growth mindset?
I've always considered myself as someone who can do X or can't do Y. I've learned new things, I've been creative and daring - at times.
But often times, when someone challenges me to do something new, I respond that I don't know how and would not be able t do it.
How do I turn that around? How do I develop a growth mindset?
90 comments
[ 3.0 ms ] story [ 66.2 ms ] threadSometimes that belief has turned out to be unfounded, when I've attempted things that were well beyond my capabilities, leading to some painful failures.
Still, none of them have killed me or ruined me, so I still think I'm better for the experience.
After some big failures about 8 years ago I discovered the concept of subconscious emotional healing work, and I have practiced various forms of this work ever since. Some of it has been under the guidance of professional practitioners, and sometimes I've just done it by myself or with friends or my partner.
That work has helped me to overcome a lot of emotional barriers that had held me back from getting better at valuable skills like programming, public speaking, emotional intelligence/empathy, financial management, etc.
I'm not a standout success, but my career and life has steadily improved since I started that emotional work, and has had some major lifts after working through some significant emotional obstacles, so I'm very sure it's been effective.
So my tip would be to search around for books and/or practitioners on subconscious emotional healing/growth work. There are many different forms of it, but try whatever you find and go with what feels right and delivers results.
By the way, it sounds like you already have a growth mindset, in that you already believe you can grow, you're just looking for systems to help you achieve that growth.
I don't have any sources to give but my tought process: I belive I can learn and do anything if I meet some base prerequisites and put in time. Based on my experience you roughly need 10 years continous development to master something.
To get started in harder level math you need to understand some elementary level basics about numbers and how draw numbers on paper. I struggled a lot with math in uni and it remained a struggle for every year. But when I finished I was a fuckin math genious compared to those who just started CS.
Can I speak? Okay, now I can do public speakings. Will it be enjoyable to listen? Nah. But if you try to be better for 1 year and learn the basics you will already be better than anyone around you.
Another example is playing the piano. Can I press the white and black buttons on it? Do I have sense of rythm? Okay, then I can play the piano! Now do my current skills able to entertain? Only as a bad joke. But if I enjoy doing it and practice and try to be better for 10 continous years I will be someone who can sit down in a bar and play enjoyable jazz all night. I won't be another Strauss thats for sure - but talent is not required to do most things well. It only speeds up the process and makes the peak higher.
Doing things well requires only two thing - to start doing it and time.
Linear Growth VS. Quantum Growth: Which path are you on?
Let me explain..
What if I told you that in all likelihood you are choosing the slow lane without even realizing it, even if you think you are not? Even if you 'think big' and 'take massive action' and so on...
First, I need to ask you a question: If money were no object and you could have, be and do anything you wanted, what would that be? What impact would you ideally want to have on yourself and the world?
Go ahead, think big. Think huge, in fact.
Got your answer? Good. If not, don't read on until you do.
Now answer me this:
+ How much time would it take you to achieve or create that?
+ How much work would be involved?
+ What kind of resources, financial and otherwise, would you need?
If your like most people you probably said 'Years... decades... a lot... millions... billions...' and so on.
Makes sense, right? Big vision, big resources and big amounts of time involved.
Wrong. That's just your perception, and like I said, perception is everything.
You see when you're thinking with your logical or rational mind you can only ever see a very small sliver of possibilities of how something could happen… We're talking less than 1% here… Probably on the order of .0001%
The truth is that there are literally millions of ways that something as big and bold as you could ever hope to imagine could come together in a very short period of time.
However, you literally do not have the mental processing power to be able to consider that many possibilities... that is, when you are thinking logically and rationally.
If you think something will take lots of resources and be very time-consuming then you will start acting like that's true and you will start taking action from that place of your limited reality.
You'll go seek investment capital or try and figure out a way to earn all that money or convene a large team or whatever else it is that you think you need to do.
And in this world the vast vast vast majority of people will share that worldview with you and will have no problem hopping on board and reinforcing your belief structure and way of seeing the world from this limited linear perspective.
Point in case is that you act based on your perspective and your perspective is based on your beliefs and if your beliefs are that reality is limited and linear then you too will experience that.
However, reality is not limited and linear, in fact reality is quantum and infinite and fluid and exponential. Reality is what you choose to see and you can choose to see anything you wish.
The problem is that most people choose to see what those around them choose to see and what most people choose to see is something very limited. But those that choose to see something different, something exponential something that others believe is impossible, for example like the Elon Musk's or Peter Diamandis's or Steve Jobs or Nikolai Tesla's or Copernicus' of the world and so on, begin to experience a reality that reflects that.
And so the first step in experiencing quantum/exponential reality and growth is believing despite all evidence to the contrary that anything is possible. And not just in a "that's nice" kind of way but in the marrow of your bones... in the fabric of your cells... In the essence of your being.
The next step is to act as if that's true—again—despite all appearances.
Let me give you a personal example of what I am talking about:
There are literally hundreds of speaker trainings out there trying to teach you how to be a speaker and what you need to do to be a speaker and how you need to think and act to be a successful professional speaker.
They'll tell you things like you need to get an agent... you need to make a speakers deck... you need to go to Toastmasters... you need enroll in speaking competitions or you need to market yourself and have a slick website and sl...
It is hard to give you general advice since everybody is at a different mindset and has different learning techniques. What helped me was realizing that whenever I hit a wall, I would stop trying because it felt annoying, difficult, or I didn't really know what to do.
The secret for me was to do everything I can, meticulously and methodically, to break through the perceived barrier in my understanding of something in very small steps. And keep going until I felt the curtain was lifting.
Now, it is just a matter of how long it will take.
The instructors do touch on having a "growth mindset", as well as teaching practical skills that are easy and effective both for retaining what you learn and for fighting procrastination.
- all these things happen at a much lower level than conscious thought. We have approaches to achieving based on genetics, early upbringing, life experiences, etc. No amount of wanting things to be different will make it so.
- there are no recipes. There is just doing stuff, some will succeed, some will fail depending on a huge number of factors. No words from anybody will help in your particular situation for general questions like "how do I get better".
- not wanting to do something (regardless of the perceived value of that something) is not always bad. Resources like time and energy are finite. Failure is costly and things like accelerated aging and burnout are real.
- why would you necessarily do what somebody else says you should? Who benefits? For an HN related thing in particular: who benefits from everybody getting into programming and working after work to learn one more tech tool?
- "self improvement" in general seems to me to be pushed by life coaches and the like with zero evidence that it actually does anything. I perceive it as a snake oil product.
The topic is huge and any attempt to summarize it like this is bound to fail. These are just a couple of thoughts.
Also, maybe the best condensation is Allan Watts "The reason why you want to be better is the reason why you aren't."
Edit: google the Allan Watts quote, it's a few minutes speech - you can listen or find it transcribed. Worth listening for another perspective on getting better.
You hit the nail on the head. The worst outcome of these types of research is implicit victim blaming. People growing up in marginalized communities never get the opportunities to be successful in life. There are a lot of reasons why someone is not accomplished and not having the "right" thought is pretty down on the list. Instead of very carefully describing the limitations of these techniques, they do complete opposites. They hype up and overgeneralize to have publicity and sell more books and seminars.
Yes failure has a cost, but it's also a great way to learn. If you're not going to do anything because you fear failure, then will you truly be happier at the end of your long life thinking gee I sure am happy I didn't attempt anything.
Yes there are a lot of ulterior motive teachers out there, but there are also altruistic ones.
There's plenty of repeatable evidence that self improvement does work. I go running regularly, and I can run longer each time. You can try playing chess against a random person off the street and then against someone who has been going to a chess club for a decade. Working on improving yourself does work.
You are right that the topic is huge. However the way to climb a mountain is to take a step, not to say that it can't be done.
They failed to do so with yours. It's easy to interpret what anyone says as if they mean it in an absolute way, it's 100% not helpful.
On another hand, sometimes I unconsciously do it too, it's something you need to practice (self-improvement? heh)
What I do agree with is that it is a complex issue and so agree that self improvement as a product does not deliver.
Sorry, I wasn't clear, it's a long speech, google it. Well worth listening. Will edit my post.
If I'm not capable of becoming successful then...what's the point?
The point is to take some steps towards the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow now and then, and enjoying the walk.
So sometimes, act a bit more curious than you feel. Remind yourself that what you're doing is actually fun more often (or if you can't, switch to something that is). And then who knows.
The people telling you to just change your mindset are just as broken as you are, I can guarantee you this. They just lie to themselves and/or others and try to force feed you their belief system. Empty words, ignore.
Do listen to that Allan Watts speech, he can certainly present things better than we here can.
What the parent comment said is probably true for the majority of cases - most people will succeed or fail due to external factors outside of their control. But you'd have to perform some impressive mental gymnastics to assert that Elon Musk just keeps getting lucky because of his environment, and not because of his own actions.
That being said, I think at some point you have to decide who you want to be. Elon Musk is an insane outlier in every way, and his life is the extreme opposite of stability and peace. I don't think that reality is unrelated to his success. So the parent has a point - accomplishment/self-improvement/growth aren't going to make everyone happy. Some people prefer stability over learning new things.
It doesn't make sense for me, but I can understand why some people want to live their life that way.
There's plenty of point in merely enjoying the moment. There is little one can do or say to combat the inherent meaninglessness of being, as every argument can be thwarted by a simple "we're all going to die anyways so what's the point?" I don't think there can even logically be a point to life.
That's not to say that goals such as bettering society, bettering one's self, or enjoying the moment aren't worthwhile. Nor does it imply that we should sink into abject hedonism and shoot heroin all day. It merely means that none of these things should be expected to subvert meaninglessness. In this sense, it's actually quite liberating. You can do anything you please, without the burden of wondering whether or not it will fill the perceived void in your soul. That void is an illusion, one which is unfortunately brought about often by depression, BPD, GAD, etc.
After lots of therapy I learned I had internalized a negative voice from an abusive relationship early in my development, which fucked up my sense of self-worth and my perception of life. It made me incessantly focused on "being the best", and if I couldn't achieve anything "great" then I had no choice but to hate myself.
If you're having suicidal thoughts, then it's time to seek professional help. I was at that point too. My doctor and I decided our best bet was to try 10mg of Lexapro for a couple months, and I've never felt better. Depression is a pernicious beast. It seeps in slowly subsuming all rational cognitive faculties, to the point where I was not merely sad, I was obstinately despondent, and refused to listen to reason. It emanated from a "feeling" of meaninglessness which I could never eliminate with mere rational thought. I guess my "chemicals" were just fucked up, and I needed a little help from the Lexapro.
So, what do you do if you're not successful? Anything else you want. The world is your oyster. Failure ultimately means as little as success. If you don't succeed at something you enjoy, then simply keep doing it, keep enjoying it, maybe you haven't struck gold yet but the journey is worth embarking on once you realize that contentment doesn't lie at the end of the journey, but within it's entirety. If you feel it's too late to start, there's still plenty of beauty left in life. Sometimes I find the following Kurt Vonnegut quote useful:
> "What is the purpose of life? To be the eyes, the ears, and consciousness of the creator of the universe, you fool!"
Now, I'm fairly young, I expect my opinions are biased by the fact that I personally feel like I still have a lot of time left to embark on journeys. I can understand if the perspective changes as you age, and feel as if you missed out or squandered your best years. Hopefully someone older can step in and share their thoughts.
I also hope I don't sound like I'm proselytizing. Just wanted to share my experience if it helps anyone.
And if you felt like you hadn't reached your own definition of success, then what of it? Would that really, honestly change your life in any measurable way, or is the feeling of "not being enough" all in your head? If it is, then that also means your head holds the means to get rid of such a feeling.
I really want to recommend the book "Man's Search for Meaning" by Viktor Frankl. It was one of the greatest assets for me overcoming my own depression, and I hope it can help you battle your suicidal thoughts all the same.
It's important to realize that achieving success in your career, learning five languages or building a cool invention aren't free tickets to happiness or fulfillment. At most, they'll make you content for a while and then, like with any happiness source, the joy will diminish and you'll have to do it all again except now you have to try harder as you've already "peaked".
The benefits of self-improvement shouldn't be "self-contained". You're not learning new things just to know them, you should learn them to help people, to make your conversations more interesting, to better understand the things you love. Basically, you should base all your improvement in genuine curiosity and, much as I hate the term, a lust for life. It can't come from feeling unfulfilled.
so, what do you recommend?
> "I know all kinds of people who've got this 'higher self' going, practicing their yoga - but they're just like ordinary people, sometimes a little worse. And they can fool themselves. They can say for example, 'Well, my point of view in religion is very liberal. I believe that all religions have divine revelation in them, but I don't understand the way you people fight about it. You fight and say that we Jehovah's Witnesses have the real religion, others say we Roman Catholics have it. And the Muslims say, no, it is in the Quran, and this is the right way.' And somebody else gets up, and he may be a rather highbrow Catholic who says, 'Well, God has given the spirit to all the traditions, but, ours is the most refined and mature.' And then somebody comes along and says, 'Well they're all equally revelations of the divine - and in seeing this, of course, I'm much more tolerant than you are.' Do you see how that game is going to work? Or, I could take this position - supposing you regard me as some sort of a guru. And you know how gurus hate each other. They're always putting each other down. And I could say, 'Well, I don't put other gurus down.' See, that outwits all of them! We're always doing that. We're always finding a way to be one-up, and by the most incredibly subtle means. So you see that, you see. And you say, 'I realize I'm always doing that. Tell me, how do I not do that?' I say, 'Why do you want to know?' You say, 'Well, I'd be better that way!' 'Yeah, but why do you want to be better?' You see - the reason why you want to be better is the reason why you aren't. Shall I put it like that? We aren't better because we want to be."
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Alan Watts is always entertaining. I think this has quite narrow applicability towards self-contradictory pursuits of virtue i.e. the motivation for self-perfection or trying to become more moral is likely to be riven with status anxiety not moral intention.
I don't think it applies to skill acquisition whose motivation may or may not be virtuous but it isn't self-contradictory. Overcoming procrastination is in part a skill to use tools like pre-commitments, habit entrainment, implementation intentions, reward and relaxation management as well as deeper tasks like resolving the sources of anxiety and it's triggers that cause avoidance.
I agree with a lot of what you wrote but I disagree about not fighting procrastination and thus letting it happen because of subconscious thought.
Procrastination leads to a lot of destructive outcomes and unhappiness. E.g. I kept procrastinating the cancellation of my gym club membership that I never used because stopping in person to sign the cancellation papers was a hassle. That procrastination cost me over $1000 of extra monthly fees for zero benefit. Staying with the example of fitness, I used to procrastinate the treadmill run in the afternoon because I've never liked exercise. I solved that procrastination by just doing it first thing in the morning before breakfast. I still have many areas in life I procrastinate but I keep trying to find "mental hacks" to reduce the damage it causes.
I'll add nuance by attempting to categorize 2 types of procrastination: (1) tasks that others think are important vs (2) tasks you really want to do
An example of (1) might be today's HN story on the front page suggesting you read Milton's "Paradise Lost". Ok, you then add it to your "mental todo" pile but as a result, you keep procrastinating your "education of classic literature". Well, maybe instead of letting that form of procrastination gnaw at you, it's better to be honest with yourself and just say you're not interested in reading it. A better use of time is to focus on the things you really want to do.
>And any other self improvement stuff.
To clarify, are you against the products/services/coaching being sold for self improvement -- or are you against the idea itself of self improvement?
Furthermore, I think it is good to have experienced multiple mindsets so one is not married to any single one of them. The self-improvement mindset can be one of the mindsets that one has experienced.
It's a certainly a signal, but it's not end-all be all signal that tells you something accurate all the time.
I want to make a case against having a "growth mindset". And against fighting procrastination. And any other self improvement stuff.
Because it is self-sabotaging behaviors. So much stuff is built around doing things that you don't want to do but is good for you, or even you feel happy about after you finished.
Exercise, for example. I know that I fallen off the wagon. The trick is to get back up again and keep trying different approaches. Even the same approaches.
- why would you necessarily do what somebody else says you should? Who benefits? For an HN related thing in particular: who benefits from everybody getting into programming and working after work to learn one more tech tool?
Programming is cool. Learning yet another tech tool is pointless without fundamentals.
- "self improvement" in general seems to me to be pushed by life coaches and the like with zero evidence that it actually does anything. I perceive it as a snake oil product.
People want to self improve. That isn't a bad thing. Of course, we want evidence of what works, but you can't have that without the prerequisite investment in the science, and sometime we have to do things by feel and experience rather than rigorous systematic testing.
I can attest to the flipside of this argument - I am 39, for whatever reason have never overstressed or overexerted (took a relatively easy career, don't have a family etc.) and I, even with much less than perfect lifestyle habits, probably look 10 years younger than many people my age. I wonder how much of it is just genetics (plus not liking to be out in the sun) and how much is the life choices.
So in that aspect - it was necessity over anything else. I guess it pushed me into a slightly stoicistic way of thinking about life in general. Two books (which contradict each other a lot) helped me to tweak my thinking by finding a path somewhere between them: Meditations by Marcus Aurelius and Beyond Good and Evil by Friedrich Nietzsche. I find myself re-reading them once a year as a matter of fact. Finding the sweet spot between them is what made me go forward - on one hand don't stress too much about the outcome and simply try to do the best to your abilities and on the other look for the collective gains from every idea/aim(product). With the appropriate amount of dedication, it's worked for me even with the largest challenges(of which I've had a lot in recent years as well). Not as I would have hoped but better than the alternatives.
"There is nothing impossible to him who will try." ― Alexander the Great
I know, these sound like platitudes but in my experience they are mostly accurate.
I listen to this speech by Arnold Schwarzenegger when I find myself thinking I can't: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQxqIKTO2Ck
That said, it’s important to give yourself permission to do things you know you’ll be bad at, at least when the stakes are low: The biggest impediment most people have to learning is a fear of failure, which is almost inevitable when attempting something new.
You might not be able to do that new thing right now, but if you try, suck at it and keep trying, eventually you will be able to do it to some degree of proficiency. I haven't found much of anything in life that you can't get better at by trying again and again.
I used to think the same way until I tried learning to play guitar. Have been trying it for a year now and I seriously question if I will ever be able to do it with reasonable proficiency. (So far holding on though.)
For example, installing a router and setting up a wifi network can seem like an unfathomably complex topic to an older person who's lived their life mostly via paperwork. But it's not that hard! And that person could almost definitely sort out how to do it with a little time and effort. You probably have examples of this in your own life.
So then, just flip it. That challenging thing that seems out of reach? Just assume you're the older person setting up wifi - assuming the thing is much more complicated and difficult than it actually is. It only seems so daunting because you have no exposure to that specific topic. If you just rip the bandaid and start learning about it a bit, you'll almost always discover that the individual steps to get started (for almost anything) are completely within reach.
For me, that thought process always gives me enough confidence to try. If I find out the thing is actually too hard, so be it. But usually, it isn't. Usually it's surprisingly easy!
For software development, I know what I can't do and try to go a bit deeper into that space every time, but not too deep.
For things I have no idea about, I get a mentor.
That said, don't over-think / over-focus. Be sure to devote some time to experimenting / R&D.
A growth mindset is not a goal, it's an iterative process.
You believe in innate talent vs you believe in practice and hardwork.
Failure indicates that you don't have it vs curiosity around why it did not work this time.
Criticism or feedback is taken personally vs Feedback is a way to learn.
You are constantly looking at others to validate your talent vs You are measuring and developing your own yardsticks for growth.
As per my understanding, you can have growth mindset in one sphere of your life and have fixed mindset in another. For e.g. a person I recently met, has fixed mindset around programming, but has a growth mindset on the subject of maths.
What does all this result in? Our self-talk about the activity at hand will tell us what mindset we have.
Do we tell ourselves: "I am not good enough", "I will never be good at this". Are we constantly looking at others to gauge what they perceive of us or our abilities?
We then need to transform all these into
1. "I am not good at this right now, but if I work at it, I will".
2. "Everyone struggles. It's just not me. Everyone has spent time and effort to become good at it." "Everyone finds learning a new thing hard and challenging"
3. What is stopping me from continuing right now? "Am i tired?", "Am I hungry?" or is it my regular pattern of avoiding pain of learning? Can I transform this towards curiosity?
To move towards growth mindset we need to approach it with a sense of play. With a sense of curiosity towards what we are trying to learn or develop into. We also need to be aware of how are feelings are involved and what they are pushing us to do or avoid.
What is my secret?
I look up "how to" on the subject and learn about it until I'm comfortable with the amount of risk involved in trying it.
That means that if I want to tile my bathroom floor, I watch Youtube videos on tiling and find out how much the materials will cost and what it would cost to fix my mistake if it's so bad that I can't fix it myself.
The result of that was my first attempt at floor tiling going very, very well, but with a lot of hard work that probably could have been easier if I'd known more. But everyone says the tile looks amazing. I see the flaws, but they don't until I point them out.
The same goes with programming at work. I've almost never said "no", but I've often said, "I'll have to look into that" and it often results in creating a proof of concept for the hardest part before actually attempting the whole project. I usually end up doing it, and it almost always works out.
So my "growth mindset" is simply to look up tutorials before saying "no".
I read the book primarily to help with meditation skills, and it gave me a lot of new perspective during my sits.
Figure out what makes you happy. When you're 100 years old, what will you have done, learned, or experienced that will make it worthwhile? As if it were one big experience that you unknowingly opted into. It can be many things, but usually there are a few really important things in there. It may take some real consideration - think about it for a while.
Thats your vision. And once you have your vision, growth may be necessary to achieve that vision. The existence of a vision will point you in the right direction of growth.
With that approach you may find that certain interests you have now fade away when you take such a broad perspective. It also forces you to take an inherently personal perspective on life. After all, it's what you want to make of it that is important, not what somebody else (religious leader, life coach, buddha, tech guru) says.
I think a lot of us have some idea of what "practice" means, but very few of us do it. Instead, we "play to win". Because it feels like practice but it really isn't.
For example, a lot of folks want to get better at basketball, so they play pickup games. Which is great. But isn't enough to get really good. You're trying to win at that game. So you won't do the necessary things to learn new skills. And the necessary things is to look like an idiot while you try a new move, a fadeaway, dribbling with your weak hand, etc.
I think that applies to most of life. We sort of think we're trying to get better, but really we're in all these games to win.
So to get better at this, I think it's necessary to just shift to more things that look like real practice with no intent on outcome. Give yourself chores like: I'm going to write an article every week for 6 months in different styles that match authors I look up to. (Maybe you publish these, maybe you don't.)
There's no winning in that statement (except the part about showing up every day). Many of us are going to resist and try to turn the exercise into: I'm going to try and grow my blog subscribers by X over 6 months. No, that's a game about winning. Get back to just practice.
When we understand what practice really feels like, the growth mindset comes more naturally: Ah yes, I'm used to sucking at something but I show up and practice and see how I get better.
Another exercise: practice being terrible in public. Give yourself quotas show off how bad you are at the beginning. Like publish yourself learning something something. Twitch stream learning to code. Publish those first awful videos you edit. Every. Day.
A best ever at something doing the most simple drills for an hour.
I have in my head I suck at basketball but Curry takes more practice shots in that video than I have in my life.
Are X and Y reasonable? Are they things you even want to do? Or things that you feel like you have to do because of some hacker-start-up-culture-HN-bullshit? Why even care when someone challenges you?
Everybody’s different and some people (like me) aren’t capable of a lot. Once I accepted that, life became a lot easier. I read, watch TV, exercise, do decently at work, but am I really doing anything? Not really. But I’m OK with that.
If you like it you’ll have time and motivation to pick up the details later.
(To a non growth mindset a worry like using the wrong racquet for a sport is paralyzing.)