Newtonian gravity is obviously a conspiracy by the intellectual elite to maintain control over the masses.
Not sure if this is intended to be sarcastic, but your “intellectual elite” better known as professional classes, aka priestly scribes, http://science1.wordpress.com/2007/11/05/knowledge-divides/ since the times of Egyptians, defined and built a cosmology for the rulers for whom they worked so that rulers could control their citizens. So, more than a conspiracy, cosmology is the fundamental method used by rulers to control their subjects.
You can no doubt find examples of how cosmology has always been the projection of the social order into the cosmos and vice versa (e.g. old Egypt: cosmos as river; 20th century: cosmos as nuclear explosion.) Therefore, Newton’s forceful, atomic materialistic worldview with an all powerful sun “exalted on his throne” http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-iarticle_quer... at the center controlling its subjects the planets with a god-given force may remind you the structure of the 18th century society ruled by all powerful kings; Newton’s “System of the World” was the world system these ruling classes wanted to impose on their citizens. I am sure you heard about the Sun-king.
Whoever controls cosmology controls your mind; whoever controls cosmology, controls how you perceive nature... This is true today more than ever.
That's certainly an unorthodox view. As far as I can make out from that post and the rest of your blog, you seem to reject Newtonian gravitation in favor of Kepler's laws of planetary orbits. How does your model account for the perturbations that are observed in three-body and more complex systems?
For instance, right now there is a satellite called SOHO at the Sun-Earth L_1 Lagrangian point. Why do you say that Newtonian gravity is a myth, when the existence of such an orbit violates Kepler's third law but is in perfect agreement with calculations according to the Newtonian model?
As far as I can make out from that post and the rest of your blog, you seem to reject Newtonian gravitation...
Reject Newtonian gravitation?
Why would I reject a meaningless concept such as “Newtonian gravitation?”
Newton did not know “Newtonian gravitation.” There is no “Newton’s constant of gravitation G” in the Principia. There are no equations in the Principia... “Newtonian gravitation” is an invention of Newtonian physicists.
My point is that if you want to understand the concept of force; look at its origins in Newton’s writings. Why? Because academic physics is a legal system. In legal systems, once a “law” enters the system, and it is canonized that law can never be removed from the system. The legal system of physics must remain consistent. This is the reason why Einstein’s Field Equations which claim to describe a nature without force has Newton’s constant of force G in them. Only in a legal system an equation denying force can have the unit of force in it.
As you can see from reading the comments in this thread by otherwise intelligent people they are utterly confused about what force is because they take the authority of physics as the absolute truth; and physics teaches nothing but the legal concepts of physics; in a legal system there is no right or wrong, or true and untrue, the truth table is not valid and there is no and/or; there is only legal and not legal.
Consequently, in a legal system, every concept comes in triplicates:
1. the letter interpretation of the law;
2. the spirit interpretation of the law; and
3. combination of letter and spirit interpretation of the law.
So, in physics it is legal to state
1. “force exists”;
2. “force does not exist”, and
3. “force existsnot”.
These are all legal statements in physics. If you try to conform your research on force to physics, you can only write a commentary on the concept of force in physics. The original article is a commentary on force in physics; it is a legal document.
...in favor of Kepler's laws of planetary orbits.
You see how much the Newtonian worldview is innate in your reasoning. You can only perceive nature in Newtonian terms. “Kepler’s laws” is the invention of Newton’s disciples who now call themselves physicists. Newton did not call “Kepler’s Rule” “Kepler’s Third Law.”
Kepler’s Rule is a rule, because it is a proportionality which ties the radius of an orbit to its period. Newton used Kepler’s rule to compute planetary orbits; this is what my blog is about. If you disagree; or you believe that my math is wrong, I cannot be happier to know that. But do not try to dismiss what I write by throwing Newtonian mythology at it.
How does your model account for the perturbations that are observed in three-body and more complex systems?
Again, you are using post-Newtonian notions invented by Newton’s disciples the physicists. You are assuming, when you write “three-body system”, that the world is Newtonian, and the three bodies in question interact according Newtonian occult force.
What is perturbation and how does astronomy account for perturbations?
There is only 1 way to make orbit calculations in astronomy: define a model; make observations; subtract observations from the model to obtain residuals. This is it. There is no other way. This is how astronomical calculations are made. Anyone who claims otherwise is a charlatan.
The residuals are the perturbations. So for example: if your model is the Ptolemaic model; and you make a table of naked-eye observations, and...
"We postulate the density continuum defined by the rule R03/T02 = R3/T2"
T is in seconds, R is in meters. So R3/T2 is in cubic meters per square seconds. A density is something per cubic meters. How exactly do 'square seconds' form a density in any meaningful way? Don't worry, I won't be holding my breath.
Postulating is al good fun but are you actually planning to do some physics with it? You're just saying Newton is evil and wrong but are not giving any reasons why his laws don't sufficicently confirm to reality. Neither are you explaining why your alternative fits reality better.
Calling relativity an offshoot of Newtonian gravity is also not quite correct.
On the Verlinde article, I haven't read it. While it sounds interesting, it hinges on the definition of entropy. IMO, it might be a big circular argument.
How exactly do 'square seconds' form a density in any meaningful way?
Frequency f is the reciprocal of period T: T = 1/f. Take a string and turn it into a sling by attaching a stone to it and whirl. A fly may go through your sling initially; as you spin faster and faster any time a fly will try to cross your sling, it will hit your sling as if hitting a “solid” wall; higher frequency means higher density. There is no other kind of density.
Read Newton’s definition I in the Principia where I get that formula and let me know if you can find Kepler’s Rule in it. Kepler’s Rule is the definition of density: R03/T02 = R3/T2
Postulating is all good fun but are you actually planning to do some physics with it?
No. Definitely not. Physics is modern scholasticism; it is a corrupt legal field no different than law. Your comment only proves how Newtonism aka physics indoctrinates human beings and shapes their worldview. Your assumption is that nature is physical and since physical means Newtonian nature is Newtonian. This is not true. You may start in your scientific quest to understand nature by questioning physics.
Once you realize that physics is Kepler’s Rule expressed in Newtonian units as described in this article http://science1.wordpress.com/2008/12/25/dear-physicist/ all you have to do is to remove Newtonian units added to it by generations of Newton’s disciples. But first, you need to realize that all of us have been indoctrinated since childhood by the Newtonian doctrine which is taught all around the world as the state religion. That’s why you reject automatically any criticism of Newtonian atomic materialism as nonsense.
You're just saying Newton is evil and wrong...
Yes, I wrote that Newton is an evil marketing genius; but I am not saying Newton is wrong. This is the puzzle that you need to understand. Read the article again. Newton uses Kepler’s Rule but names it with his own dynamical sounding names. Newton himself did not use conventional units such as G, he used Earth-Venus distance as his unit (R0 in the article), but generations of Newton’s disciples invented a unit system with Newtonian names; so you can no longer separate what is conventional unit and what is the rule that is used in computations. Physicists have been fooling us into believing that because an equation contains G (a conventional unit they named after Newton) that equation must be a dynamical equation. This is the hoax. If you think otherwise let me know.
...but are not giving any reasons why his laws don't sufficicently confirm to reality.
“Newton’s laws” are not used in astronomical calculations. This may come as a surprise to you, but it is true. NASA (more correctly JPL) computes orbits with numerical integration; no Newtonian terms enter astronomical calculations. But it is a tradition started by Newton himself to call geometric calculations “Newton’s laws”. Read this article http://science1.wordpress.com/2008/10/27/mercurys-perihelion... and check the link for LeVerrier’s original calculations for anomalies in Mercury’s motion. It is all geometric and trigonometric expansions, yet physicists insist on calling it “Newton’s laws”. Same is true today; physicists compute orbits by geometric and numerical means but they call their calculations “Newtonian.”
Neither are you explaining why your alternative fits reality better.
The alternative is to remove the Newtonian units; what is left is Kepler’s Rule. The rule is the same. So if you use in your calculations the conventional physics unit called GM and call your calculations “Newtonian” or alternatively, if you use Earth-Venus distance as your unit, it makes no difference, in both cases you are using Kepler’s Rule to compute orbits. In other words, Newton’s disciples brande...
I thought Einstein said that over 100 years ago. From my understanding gravity is not a force but a curvature of space time, did I misread something?
The really interesting bit about black holes and universes encoding information on the surface is this: The Chandrasekhar limit radius for a mass equal to the weight of the universe, once you figure that out, look up the best known estimate for the radius of the universe.
He called it a psudoforce. The difference is that a real force is felt no matter your frame of reference, but a psudoforce changes with different reference frames.
I've never noticed the different to have any implications though, and not everyone even agrees with it, since gravity does have some elements of a real force.
Or in other words, a black hole is something that light never escapes from, and the universe is also something that light never escapes from.
Ignoring hawking radiation of course...
... unless the cosmic microwave background is the equivalent of the hawking radiation given off by black holes (note: for the picky, before you object, consider that hawking radiation consists of when one part of a short lived mutually annihilating pair of particles falls into the event horizon and the other falls out (hence gets radiated away) and thus from the point of view of those inside the black hole it would appear as those there was a constant rain of particles falling in... which I'm equating here to the microwave background noise), which would imply that our universe is shrinking...
...unless it implies that our universe is getting bigger, maybe if our universe is a black hole with hawking 'radiation' then on the other side of the 'universal event horizon' things work a bit differently and it is matter which is more likely to fall in, not anti-matter...
... which would explain why baryonic matter in this universe has an overwhelming tendency towards matter instead of anti-matter, which is one of those really big still outstanding questions in science...
The title is poorly chosen. The article describes a new proposed method of formulating gravity in terms of quantum physics. Gravity is clearly not a 'force' according to the common Newtonian definition of that word.
There's nothing intrinsically holy about peer review, though I don't blame you for having it as a filter. More useful to me are these two paragraphs:
>Kobakhidze uses Verlinde's approach to re-derive the wave equation that will describe the energy levels of neutrons falling in Earth's gravitational well. What he finds is that, in contrast to the more conventional equation, there are two extra terms now present. One would appear to account for the relativistic rest energy of the neutron; the other is a form of an extreme suppression of certain parts of the neutron's wavefunction. Both of these additions result in problems for Verlinde's theory.
>The first extra term, the relativistic rest energy, would manifest itself as a constant shift in the neutron's energy states (height above the bottom of the well)—this is not seen at all in the experiments. According to Kobakhidze, though, it is the second extra term that really throws a wrench into entropic gravity. The second term, if correct, would significantly change the dynamics of the experiment, essentially causing neutrons to fall through the small hole in the bottom of the potential well. There's no sign of this happening in any meaningful way in the experiment. Thus, Kobakhidze concludes, "we are driven to the conclusion that gravity is not an entropic force."
It has not yet gone through peer review. It's a long process. I doubt that this is one those "scientists" who deliberately avoid peer review.
Ars regularly do this, discuss papers that are "hot off the press" and have not been fully peer reviewed yet. This is simply the reality of following the bleeding edge of science. They are always up front about it, I don't see a problem.
The problem I have with this, as a reviewer, is that an amazing amount of junk gets submitted to journals with no hope of passing peer review. With your standard, all this junk is merely things "hot off the press". As to whether this is "one of those scientists", I don't know (probably not). But the article hints that his idea has already been falsified, and yet it still goes through with publishing about it breathlessly!
Peer review is a more important standard than you take it to be. For every announced-but-not-yet-peer-reviewed revolutionary discovery -- Wiles's proof of Fermat's Last Theorem comes to mind -- there are a massive number of P!=NP papers "awaiting peer review", every one of which is dead wrong, but each of which will excite some moron in the press to write about it.
The press has such an incredibly bad track record at this that my personal estimate, based on the performance of similar breathless "hot off the presses" articles I have read, is that without reading the article there is over a 95% probability that this paper won't pass peer review. Once I read the article, based on the fact that half of it is a sheepish admission that there are problems with the theorem, I think that this prior probability was more than confirmed.
With a probability this low, I see no reason to waste my time reading breathless articles like this.
I don't think you're giving enough credit to the author of this summary by calling it "breathless." His conclusion is:
This is how science works. Ideas are proposed, they are backed up, they are shot down. Over time, it would not surprise me to see Verlinde defend his work. Perhaps Kobakhidze's derivation and its extension to the microscopic case is incorrect. Perhaps Verlinde will revisit his original work to revise how microscopic cases should be handled. Whatever happens, science will move on; time, further arguments, and experiments will be the ultimate arbiter of which drastically different view of reality is correct.
I think this article has two purposes: explain a new, untested theory, and demonstrate how science works in practice. He links to, and discusses, two papers that refute the theory. You call that a "sheepish admission," but I think that was one of his goals.
"In this article, we are going to look at a manuscript that purports to overturn hundreds of years of accepted ideas about gravity, and use it as an illustration of how controversial ideas are dealt with in modern physics."
I don't think you can be any more up front than that. It's not a sheepish admission, it's the whole point of the article. Ars are trying to highlight exactly the problems you're talking about.
> I don't think you're giving enough credit to the author of this summary by calling it "breathless."
I think you're right -- on rereading I shouldn't be laying the smackdown on the Ars article: he does use the paper as an example of the scientific process at work. Nonetheless I think that by advertising a paper which hasn't been through peer review, he's promoting it. It'd have been a lot better if he told his story with an example which has already gone through the cycle of being proposed, shot down, and buried.
Redefining the laws of physics in terms of information theory is not new, but so far as I know hasn't been tried and expressed well with gravity.
Certainly all of QM can be done in terms of information, and I think Seth Lloyd is working on this right now. Cool to see a new take on gravity though.
Also, it's neat to think that black holes are deterministic from their surface, though it's sort of required if you force thermo on it. After all, if the information's beyond the event horizon, it's not really in our universe, and thus violates thermo assumptions about closed systems. Sort of a case of mashing theory against the universe.
The guidelines suggest different criteria for what constitutes "Hacker News" [1], specifically the first paragraph: "On-Topic: Anything that good hackers would find interesting. That includes more than hacking and startups. If you had to reduce it to a sentence, the answer might be: anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity."
Also in the guidelines: "Please don't submit comments complaining that a submission is inappropriate for the site. If you think something is spam or offtopic, flag it by going to its page and clicking on the "flag" link. (Not all users will see this; there is a karma threshold.) If you flag something, please don't also comment that you did."
"Anything that good hackers would find interesting. That includes more than hacking and startups. If you had to reduce it to a sentence, the answer might be: anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity."
I really don't understand the question "is gravity a force?" It reminds me of the Feynman story:
> "Say, Pop, I noticed something. When I pull the wagon,
> the ball rolls to the back of the wagon. And when I'm
> pulling it along and I suddenly stop, the ball rolls
> to the front of the wagon. Why is that?
>
> "That, nobody knows," he said. "The general principle is
> that things which are moving tend to keep on moving, and
> things which are standing still tend to stand still, unless
> you push them hard. This tendency is called 'inertia,' but
> nobody knows why it's true." Now, that's a deep
> understanding. He didn't just give me the name.
I don't get why this is "a deep understanding." Why should someone have to have some deep reason for believing that something at rest won't spontaneously begin moving? Should you also need a profound explanation for why things don't spontaneously change their mass or sprout kangaroo legs and start singing "La Bamba?"
And what does it mean to ask if "gravity" is not actually a "force?" The idea of a "force" is just an abstraction we use to describe our observations. How is it a deep question to ask whether we give gravity the label of "force" or not?
Inertia is a very, very subtle concept. Few people (incl myself) really have a good understanding of what is meant by inertia and why it is so perplexing. There are some great examples I've come across in the past that demonstrate, but I'll have to look them up. In the mean time take a look at the "Inertial frames" section on the wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inertia
The deep understanding part is that he explained what is going on, rather than, as many science books and science teachers do, just naming it.
Knowing the name of something does not help you understand it.
The idea of a force is that it's a prime mover - it's not caused by something else. The practical implications in the case of gravity are zero, but maybe we'll figure out something cool due to the implications someday.
> I really don't understand the question "is gravity a force?"
The question is not "is gravity a force?". The question is "What is gravity?"
An accepted answer, what I was taught in school, and what I would answer if you asked me is "it's a force". And labeling something as "a force" has huge implications for people that know what that label means.
If a four year old asked me "What is gravity?", I'd know better than to give him a label, because he wouldn't know what a force is from school. Obviously.
If it turns out gravity is not really a force -- if modelling gravity as a force breaks down at some point -- that's a good fundamental result. It is a falsification of the theory "Gravity is a force". (So the line of thought goes: "What is gravity?", "It is a force!", "Is gravity really a force?", "Perhaps not!")
How is this not helping us attaining a deep understanding? How is this not advancing science? How is this any different from any science?
> If it turns out gravity is not really a force ...
It definitely isn't. The word "force" implies a Newtonian model for physics. Under general relativity, gravity isn't seen as a force but a consequence of curved space-time.
The title was probably chosen by an editor without deep knowledge of the subject. It doesn't accurately describe the article's content either.
I humbly bow to anybody's superior knowledge of physics.
To clarify, I wasn't actually trying to say anything about physics, just about science. So it would have been better phrased as a hypothetical; If we assume that gravity is currently best modeled as a force, why is it valuable (nay, essential) to question whether or not it actually is a force? I hope I answered that hypothetical properly :)
> Under general relativity, gravity isn't seen as a force but a consequence of curved space-time.
But why does the presence of matter cause spacetime to curve?
If you want to argue that gravity isn't a force, I don't think it's enough to say "it's a consequence of curved spacetime". I think you have to answer the question of why it curves. I'm not aware of an answer to that question. If there isn't one, as I suspect, then I would say, there's your force of gravity: you're just describing it as acting on spacetime itself rather than on the objects in that spacetime.
I was taught in school that there were four forces- strong, weak, EM and gravity. Gravity was the one that was always hardest to fit into a GUT model (people suggesting looking for a particle called a gravitron, for example, which intuitively I always thought was bullshit), and based on what I've read since school it's hard for me to believe that gravity belongs in the list of "the four forces."
What's remarkable about this is that it uses the one winning strategy we've got in quantum gravity today.
In QG we've got two things: (i) general principle such as unitarity and the holographic principle, and (ii) specific models such as loop quantum gravity, string theory models, supergravity, etc.
Results based on type (ii) information are always going to be iffy because the detailed models are all about what happens on the Planck scale or inside a black hole so experimental confirmation is going to be difficult -- it may be hard or impossible to prove or disprove any one of these models.
Type (i) results, however, will hold no matter what is correct on the type (ii) level. Because we're not assuming a huge amount of "superstructure", the results are much more intellectually convincing than type (ii) results -- and with more certainty on the theoretical front, there's more "gravity" in the confrontation of theory and experiment...
(We accomplish very little by experimentally disproving any particular type (ii) model because we've got 100 others to take its place)
Your last bit reminded me of something one of my professors said. I remember it as "Hmm, our theory didn't pan out at the predicted 7 TeV? Must be at 14."
43 comments
[ 5.9 ms ] story [ 125 ms ] threadIt’s true that the faithful followers of self-anointed prophets will believe without question the dogma of their prophet and perpetuate the dogma.
But such cults have always come to an end.
The Newtonian cult called physics will also end.
w t f
Not sure if this is intended to be sarcastic, but your “intellectual elite” better known as professional classes, aka priestly scribes, http://science1.wordpress.com/2007/11/05/knowledge-divides/ since the times of Egyptians, defined and built a cosmology for the rulers for whom they worked so that rulers could control their citizens. So, more than a conspiracy, cosmology is the fundamental method used by rulers to control their subjects.
You can no doubt find examples of how cosmology has always been the projection of the social order into the cosmos and vice versa (e.g. old Egypt: cosmos as river; 20th century: cosmos as nuclear explosion.) Therefore, Newton’s forceful, atomic materialistic worldview with an all powerful sun “exalted on his throne” http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-iarticle_quer... at the center controlling its subjects the planets with a god-given force may remind you the structure of the 18th century society ruled by all powerful kings; Newton’s “System of the World” was the world system these ruling classes wanted to impose on their citizens. I am sure you heard about the Sun-king.
Whoever controls cosmology controls your mind; whoever controls cosmology, controls how you perceive nature... This is true today more than ever.
For instance, right now there is a satellite called SOHO at the Sun-Earth L_1 Lagrangian point. Why do you say that Newtonian gravity is a myth, when the existence of such an orbit violates Kepler's third law but is in perfect agreement with calculations according to the Newtonian model?
Reject Newtonian gravitation?
Why would I reject a meaningless concept such as “Newtonian gravitation?”
Newton did not know “Newtonian gravitation.” There is no “Newton’s constant of gravitation G” in the Principia. There are no equations in the Principia... “Newtonian gravitation” is an invention of Newtonian physicists.
My point is that if you want to understand the concept of force; look at its origins in Newton’s writings. Why? Because academic physics is a legal system. In legal systems, once a “law” enters the system, and it is canonized that law can never be removed from the system. The legal system of physics must remain consistent. This is the reason why Einstein’s Field Equations which claim to describe a nature without force has Newton’s constant of force G in them. Only in a legal system an equation denying force can have the unit of force in it.
As you can see from reading the comments in this thread by otherwise intelligent people they are utterly confused about what force is because they take the authority of physics as the absolute truth; and physics teaches nothing but the legal concepts of physics; in a legal system there is no right or wrong, or true and untrue, the truth table is not valid and there is no and/or; there is only legal and not legal.
Consequently, in a legal system, every concept comes in triplicates:
So, in physics it is legal to state These are all legal statements in physics. If you try to conform your research on force to physics, you can only write a commentary on the concept of force in physics. The original article is a commentary on force in physics; it is a legal document....in favor of Kepler's laws of planetary orbits.
You see how much the Newtonian worldview is innate in your reasoning. You can only perceive nature in Newtonian terms. “Kepler’s laws” is the invention of Newton’s disciples who now call themselves physicists. Newton did not call “Kepler’s Rule” “Kepler’s Third Law.”
Kepler’s Rule is a rule, because it is a proportionality which ties the radius of an orbit to its period. Newton used Kepler’s rule to compute planetary orbits; this is what my blog is about. If you disagree; or you believe that my math is wrong, I cannot be happier to know that. But do not try to dismiss what I write by throwing Newtonian mythology at it.
How does your model account for the perturbations that are observed in three-body and more complex systems?
Again, you are using post-Newtonian notions invented by Newton’s disciples the physicists. You are assuming, when you write “three-body system”, that the world is Newtonian, and the three bodies in question interact according Newtonian occult force.
The world is not Newtonian.
Newton dealt with perturbations in the Principia in proposition III.13 http://science1.wordpress.com/2008/11/11/the-cause-of-saturn... So the myth that “perturbation” is a dynamical phenomenon goes back to that proposition in the Principia.
What is perturbation and how does astronomy account for perturbations?
There is only 1 way to make orbit calculations in astronomy: define a model; make observations; subtract observations from the model to obtain residuals. This is it. There is no other way. This is how astronomical calculations are made. Anyone who claims otherwise is a charlatan.
The residuals are the perturbations. So for example: if your model is the Ptolemaic model; and you make a table of naked-eye observations, and...
http://rebelscience.blogspot.com/
Postulating is al good fun but are you actually planning to do some physics with it? You're just saying Newton is evil and wrong but are not giving any reasons why his laws don't sufficicently confirm to reality. Neither are you explaining why your alternative fits reality better. Calling relativity an offshoot of Newtonian gravity is also not quite correct.
On the Verlinde article, I haven't read it. While it sounds interesting, it hinges on the definition of entropy. IMO, it might be a big circular argument.
Frequency f is the reciprocal of period T: T = 1/f. Take a string and turn it into a sling by attaching a stone to it and whirl. A fly may go through your sling initially; as you spin faster and faster any time a fly will try to cross your sling, it will hit your sling as if hitting a “solid” wall; higher frequency means higher density. There is no other kind of density.
Read Newton’s definition I in the Principia where I get that formula and let me know if you can find Kepler’s Rule in it. Kepler’s Rule is the definition of density: R03/T02 = R3/T2
Postulating is all good fun but are you actually planning to do some physics with it?
No. Definitely not. Physics is modern scholasticism; it is a corrupt legal field no different than law. Your comment only proves how Newtonism aka physics indoctrinates human beings and shapes their worldview. Your assumption is that nature is physical and since physical means Newtonian nature is Newtonian. This is not true. You may start in your scientific quest to understand nature by questioning physics.
Once you realize that physics is Kepler’s Rule expressed in Newtonian units as described in this article http://science1.wordpress.com/2008/12/25/dear-physicist/ all you have to do is to remove Newtonian units added to it by generations of Newton’s disciples. But first, you need to realize that all of us have been indoctrinated since childhood by the Newtonian doctrine which is taught all around the world as the state religion. That’s why you reject automatically any criticism of Newtonian atomic materialism as nonsense.
You're just saying Newton is evil and wrong...
Yes, I wrote that Newton is an evil marketing genius; but I am not saying Newton is wrong. This is the puzzle that you need to understand. Read the article again. Newton uses Kepler’s Rule but names it with his own dynamical sounding names. Newton himself did not use conventional units such as G, he used Earth-Venus distance as his unit (R0 in the article), but generations of Newton’s disciples invented a unit system with Newtonian names; so you can no longer separate what is conventional unit and what is the rule that is used in computations. Physicists have been fooling us into believing that because an equation contains G (a conventional unit they named after Newton) that equation must be a dynamical equation. This is the hoax. If you think otherwise let me know.
...but are not giving any reasons why his laws don't sufficicently confirm to reality.
“Newton’s laws” are not used in astronomical calculations. This may come as a surprise to you, but it is true. NASA (more correctly JPL) computes orbits with numerical integration; no Newtonian terms enter astronomical calculations. But it is a tradition started by Newton himself to call geometric calculations “Newton’s laws”. Read this article http://science1.wordpress.com/2008/10/27/mercurys-perihelion... and check the link for LeVerrier’s original calculations for anomalies in Mercury’s motion. It is all geometric and trigonometric expansions, yet physicists insist on calling it “Newton’s laws”. Same is true today; physicists compute orbits by geometric and numerical means but they call their calculations “Newtonian.”
Neither are you explaining why your alternative fits reality better.
The alternative is to remove the Newtonian units; what is left is Kepler’s Rule. The rule is the same. So if you use in your calculations the conventional physics unit called GM and call your calculations “Newtonian” or alternatively, if you use Earth-Venus distance as your unit, it makes no difference, in both cases you are using Kepler’s Rule to compute orbits. In other words, Newton’s disciples brande...
The really interesting bit about black holes and universes encoding information on the surface is this: The Chandrasekhar limit radius for a mass equal to the weight of the universe, once you figure that out, look up the best known estimate for the radius of the universe.
I've never noticed the different to have any implications though, and not everyone even agrees with it, since gravity does have some elements of a real force.
See: http://www.av8n.com/physics/fictitious-force.htm for a pretty complete discussion.
Ignoring hawking radiation of course...
... unless the cosmic microwave background is the equivalent of the hawking radiation given off by black holes (note: for the picky, before you object, consider that hawking radiation consists of when one part of a short lived mutually annihilating pair of particles falls into the event horizon and the other falls out (hence gets radiated away) and thus from the point of view of those inside the black hole it would appear as those there was a constant rain of particles falling in... which I'm equating here to the microwave background noise), which would imply that our universe is shrinking...
...unless it implies that our universe is getting bigger, maybe if our universe is a black hole with hawking 'radiation' then on the other side of the 'universal event horizon' things work a bit differently and it is matter which is more likely to fall in, not anti-matter...
... which would explain why baryonic matter in this universe has an overwhelming tendency towards matter instead of anti-matter, which is one of those really big still outstanding questions in science...
I think this is really all we need to know.
>Kobakhidze uses Verlinde's approach to re-derive the wave equation that will describe the energy levels of neutrons falling in Earth's gravitational well. What he finds is that, in contrast to the more conventional equation, there are two extra terms now present. One would appear to account for the relativistic rest energy of the neutron; the other is a form of an extreme suppression of certain parts of the neutron's wavefunction. Both of these additions result in problems for Verlinde's theory.
>The first extra term, the relativistic rest energy, would manifest itself as a constant shift in the neutron's energy states (height above the bottom of the well)—this is not seen at all in the experiments. According to Kobakhidze, though, it is the second extra term that really throws a wrench into entropic gravity. The second term, if correct, would significantly change the dynamics of the experiment, essentially causing neutrons to fall through the small hole in the bottom of the potential well. There's no sign of this happening in any meaningful way in the experiment. Thus, Kobakhidze concludes, "we are driven to the conclusion that gravity is not an entropic force."
Ars regularly do this, discuss papers that are "hot off the press" and have not been fully peer reviewed yet. This is simply the reality of following the bleeding edge of science. They are always up front about it, I don't see a problem.
Peer review is a more important standard than you take it to be. For every announced-but-not-yet-peer-reviewed revolutionary discovery -- Wiles's proof of Fermat's Last Theorem comes to mind -- there are a massive number of P!=NP papers "awaiting peer review", every one of which is dead wrong, but each of which will excite some moron in the press to write about it.
The press has such an incredibly bad track record at this that my personal estimate, based on the performance of similar breathless "hot off the presses" articles I have read, is that without reading the article there is over a 95% probability that this paper won't pass peer review. Once I read the article, based on the fact that half of it is a sheepish admission that there are problems with the theorem, I think that this prior probability was more than confirmed.
With a probability this low, I see no reason to waste my time reading breathless articles like this.
This is how science works. Ideas are proposed, they are backed up, they are shot down. Over time, it would not surprise me to see Verlinde defend his work. Perhaps Kobakhidze's derivation and its extension to the microscopic case is incorrect. Perhaps Verlinde will revisit his original work to revise how microscopic cases should be handled. Whatever happens, science will move on; time, further arguments, and experiments will be the ultimate arbiter of which drastically different view of reality is correct.
I think this article has two purposes: explain a new, untested theory, and demonstrate how science works in practice. He links to, and discusses, two papers that refute the theory. You call that a "sheepish admission," but I think that was one of his goals.
"In this article, we are going to look at a manuscript that purports to overturn hundreds of years of accepted ideas about gravity, and use it as an illustration of how controversial ideas are dealt with in modern physics."
I don't think you can be any more up front than that. It's not a sheepish admission, it's the whole point of the article. Ars are trying to highlight exactly the problems you're talking about.
I think you're right -- on rereading I shouldn't be laying the smackdown on the Ars article: he does use the paper as an example of the scientific process at work. Nonetheless I think that by advertising a paper which hasn't been through peer review, he's promoting it. It'd have been a lot better if he told his story with an example which has already gone through the cycle of being proposed, shot down, and buried.
Certainly all of QM can be done in terms of information, and I think Seth Lloyd is working on this right now. Cool to see a new take on gravity though.
Also, it's neat to think that black holes are deterministic from their surface, though it's sort of required if you force thermo on it. After all, if the information's beyond the event horizon, it's not really in our universe, and thus violates thermo assumptions about closed systems. Sort of a case of mashing theory against the universe.
-Cd
But it is pseudo-science babble that I might find in an e-mail forward.
Not Hacker News.
(Hit my 365 days yesterday so I am officially "allowed" to complain.)
Also in the guidelines: "Please don't submit comments complaining that a submission is inappropriate for the site. If you think something is spam or offtopic, flag it by going to its page and clicking on the "flag" link. (Not all users will see this; there is a karma threshold.) If you flag something, please don't also comment that you did."
[1]: http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
"Anything that good hackers would find interesting. That includes more than hacking and startups. If you had to reduce it to a sentence, the answer might be: anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity."
I, for one, welcome posts of this kind
And what does it mean to ask if "gravity" is not actually a "force?" The idea of a "force" is just an abstraction we use to describe our observations. How is it a deep question to ask whether we give gravity the label of "force" or not?
Knowing the name of something does not help you understand it.
The idea of a force is that it's a prime mover - it's not caused by something else. The practical implications in the case of gravity are zero, but maybe we'll figure out something cool due to the implications someday.
The question is not "is gravity a force?". The question is "What is gravity?"
An accepted answer, what I was taught in school, and what I would answer if you asked me is "it's a force". And labeling something as "a force" has huge implications for people that know what that label means.
If a four year old asked me "What is gravity?", I'd know better than to give him a label, because he wouldn't know what a force is from school. Obviously.
If it turns out gravity is not really a force -- if modelling gravity as a force breaks down at some point -- that's a good fundamental result. It is a falsification of the theory "Gravity is a force". (So the line of thought goes: "What is gravity?", "It is a force!", "Is gravity really a force?", "Perhaps not!")
How is this not helping us attaining a deep understanding? How is this not advancing science? How is this any different from any science?
It definitely isn't. The word "force" implies a Newtonian model for physics. Under general relativity, gravity isn't seen as a force but a consequence of curved space-time.
The title was probably chosen by an editor without deep knowledge of the subject. It doesn't accurately describe the article's content either.
To clarify, I wasn't actually trying to say anything about physics, just about science. So it would have been better phrased as a hypothetical; If we assume that gravity is currently best modeled as a force, why is it valuable (nay, essential) to question whether or not it actually is a force? I hope I answered that hypothetical properly :)
But why does the presence of matter cause spacetime to curve?
If you want to argue that gravity isn't a force, I don't think it's enough to say "it's a consequence of curved spacetime". I think you have to answer the question of why it curves. I'm not aware of an answer to that question. If there isn't one, as I suspect, then I would say, there's your force of gravity: you're just describing it as acting on spacetime itself rather than on the objects in that spacetime.
/serious-face
In QG we've got two things: (i) general principle such as unitarity and the holographic principle, and (ii) specific models such as loop quantum gravity, string theory models, supergravity, etc.
Results based on type (ii) information are always going to be iffy because the detailed models are all about what happens on the Planck scale or inside a black hole so experimental confirmation is going to be difficult -- it may be hard or impossible to prove or disprove any one of these models.
Type (i) results, however, will hold no matter what is correct on the type (ii) level. Because we're not assuming a huge amount of "superstructure", the results are much more intellectually convincing than type (ii) results -- and with more certainty on the theoretical front, there's more "gravity" in the confrontation of theory and experiment...
(We accomplish very little by experimentally disproving any particular type (ii) model because we've got 100 others to take its place)