Bold words from a man who, to the best of my knowledge, never acknowledged or reckoned with the role that his own dictatorial handling of the Catiline conspirators played in the fall of the Republic.
Cicero was demanitated at 63 (beating Ernesto Guevara by 24 years), yet Roger Daltrey (76) still has to sing "hope I die before I get old." Now that's karma?
So this is where I also struggle with Cicero. He was overly political, very worried about his own image, flip-flopped sides as suited him and was easily persuaded with gifts of status.
But we remember him for his philosophies and writings (or his summaries of other’s philosophy for the more cynical), which did seem to have a impact on future generations.
On one hand, all men fall short of their ideal. But do you really think character qualities such as Cicero’s erase the positive influence he might have had despite them over the longer term?
I struggle with this and it’s a genuine question. On reading his biography I was put off on the man himself more or less, while at the same time his words seem to inspire.
The point of ideals is that we're often willing to overlook[1] flaws in their messengers[2].
A man's retch should exceed his grasp, or what's a-heaving for?
"The power which the strong have over the weak, the employer over the employed, the educated over the unlettered, the experienced over the confiding, even the clever over the silly -- the forbearing or inoffensive use of all this power or authority, or a total abstinence from it when the case admits it, will show the gentleman in a plain light." -- General Robert E. Lee
"The nobles would still be in charge if they'd cared more about fruits than about roots." -- Emperor Napoleon Bonaparte
[1] that is, for judging the ideal. Judging a messenger by the ideals they profess to aspire is a different matter.
“Be true to what you said on paper.” – Martin Luther King, Jr., April 3, 1968.
I've been on a bit of a roman history binge lately, fueled by the discovery of Mike Duncan's podcast, "The History of Rome" so I'm going to tell the story I understood from that here for context:
In his telling, the Catiline Conspiracy was a product of its time: Marius and Sulla showed the Roman aristocracy that if you just ignored the law and had popular support + an army, you could basically do whatever you want, and so that became the norm for the next generation.
At the time, Cicero was one of the two Consuls, the heads of state that were elected yearly by the senate. And Pompey, a charismatic and popular Roman general was in command of a large army and had just won some wars in the east. Cicero was afraid of what Pompey might do with all his popularity and legions (again, ambitious men taking what they wanted by flouting laws was all the rage).
So when Cicero learned of a (not very well-organized) coup was being organized by senator Catilina, he attempted to use it as a way to unite the Roman senate against treasonous behaviour.
Cicero convinced the senators, and Catilina was exiled, protesting that he'd been mistreated. But he went and joined the army of centurion Manlius, who was helping organize the rebellion.
The rebels then tried to get a Gallic tribe, the Allobroges, to join them, but were betrayed to the senate and letters they had sent were used by Cicero to convince them to sentence five of the conspirators to death without trial.
Julius Caesar, at this point just another politician, protested this "sentenced to death without trial" outcome loudly, seeing Cicero as an enemy of his own ambitions.
For the rest of his life, putting five men to death without trial would be brought to discredit Cicero again and again, including being used as an excuse to exile him.
@throwanem -- does that sound like a reasonable summary of the context of your comment?
I would second Mike Duncan’s podcasts on Rome as being well worth your time.
And that is how I recall that period of time. It’s one of those situations where you let the reality of the situation deviate you from your ideals, I think.
@throwanem - have you ever read anything where he commented in hindsight that he still believed that he made the right choice? I’m newer to Roman history and sounds like you might have experience / background here.
Nothing I've read from or of him has suggested that he ever felt other than that his action in the Catiline affair was the crowning moment of his public life. Perhaps he'd have changed his mind had he lived longer, but who can know?
I struggle with the same question you raised in your other comment, and find it often difficult to credit ideals which even their own strongest proponents prove unable to uphold when it seems to matter most.
That'd totally suck if you were to hear him say it here and now. In the context of the Roman empire and the period Cicero wrote this it would probably not register much, except for with a few 'activist' types like Spartacus.
Take the way things are done currently which you more or less accept as normal, e.g. the state demands part of your income with the threat of force if you don't comply. Fast-forward to a new age when taxes have been abolished since the invention and perfection of the matter compiler (think 'Diamond Age') and imagine reading about how the government enslaved the populace. You need to interpret written words in the context of the place and time they ware written, if you try to literally apply them to the current situation things go south pretty quickly.
I find the constant ranting about taxation here very trying, I frequent many financial and more "right-wing" forums, but HN is the only place I commonly see the taxation is theft argument made seriously on a regular basis.
I'd love to know why that is, but it appears to be one of life's great mysteries.
My mother's advice on this still stays with me: never look at your gross pay, and you'll be much, much happier.
You might want to consider reading my reply before you start spouting nonsense about right-wing forums, it might answer your question about why I chose taxation as an example of something which is seen as normal in current society but might be seen in a totally different light in some imaginary future society.
It might help you understand that your rant is misplaced since my comparison only works because taxation is seen as something normal in current society. Had it been seen in the light you portray it the comparison would not hold.
Dude, I'm totally with you on the broader point (that things that seem normal today will seem bizarre in the future).
However, I note that I didn't refer to HN as one of these "right-wing forums", rather I was speaking about financial news, which I would naively have expected to be more anti-taxation than a forum populated by people working on the fruits of a massive forty year defence project (the Internet/WWW).
Like, I personally disagree with you that taxation will be seen in those terms, but given that both of us will (probably) be dead before such a matter compiler exists, it's probably a moot point.
And by the way, my comment was not a rant (I don't think I've ever ranted on HN, to be honest, as tone doesn't come through well on the internet).
Maybe someday we'll meet in person, and you can actually listen to a rant of mine (normally entertaining, even if you disagree).
Most people treat taxation the same way they treat automobiles or software, in that as long as the features they do want are available for a price they're willing to pay, they don't worry much about also getting the rest of the bundle which they don't want.
On HN, one is more likely to find people who massage dotfiles and dependencies to get specifically what they want and not what they don't (if not necessarily more likely to find people who scratch build their car to contain only the features they wish?), and so one also is more likely to find people who wish to unbundle taxation.
Sigh. Whatever happened to intellectual curiosity in this place...
No, I did not just turn a point about slavery into a rant that you have to pay taxes. I used taxes as an example of something which might be seen in a totally different light in some future society. I might as well have used the Indian caste system or some religious dogma but did not, instead I used something which everyone has experience with.
Also, lol, seriously? Is this Hacker News or is it Slashdot?
"Some things are up to us and some are not up to us. Our opinions are up to us, and our impulses, desires, aversions – in short, whatever is our own doing. Our bodies are not up to us, nor are our possessions, our reputations, or our public offices. . ."
Epictetus, a Roman slave, probably crippled by his master.
Good quote and just want to say that his philosophies are some of the most difficult sounding topics, but with he himself appearing to live a life that is true.
I would also say look up James Bond Stockdale (yes that is really his name) - we was a POW in Vietnam for seven years. He refers to Epictetus and Stoic philosophy as the reason he survived with his mental health.
I’ll see if I can find a link to two papers of his that are public source
He has a couple other books and collections of writings. If you are looking for real world applications of Stoicism, there isn’t much of a better person.
The Christian religion in Europe got its start mainly with slaves and poor people. I am not familiar with the details of early Christianity in Rome, but I suspect there are likely major Christian saints who were in fact slaves.
Bilal, a slave who was one of the vanguard of Muslims, also has a pretty exalted rank. There were other slaves, mainly in the mystic track of Islam, that are also highly regarded for their “virtue” and apparent perfect peace with God (“happy”?).
The Human experience is ultimately an internal, subjective affair between the human and (perceived) Reality (aka God).
The Benedict Option[1] having been mentioned on HN, I recently read a translation of Benedict's Rule. He's pretty clear that entering by the narrow gate implies giving up not only private property, but also personal property, and even personal volition.
Cicero is one of the Roman gems that people tend to miss out on. He lived more than 2000 years ago, and written many works on Greek philosophy (including the works of Plato, Stoics, Epicureans, et al); and some of his own. He often claims that he doesn't take sides, but aims for what is most "probable". Although, in some cases he leans heavily towards Stoic ethics (despite his love for Plato's Academy).
Besides the "On Old Age", some recommended English translations of his works:
• On Duties — this volume is divided into three 'books'; the first 'book' covers Stoic ethics in highly compressed form. Recommended English translation: "Cicero On Duties (Cambridge Texts in the History of Political Thought)"; it also has very useful footnotes.
• Tusculan Disputations — horrendous name (more correctly called: "Discussions at my villa in Tusculum"), but excellent content. It covers five themes ("disputations"); two of them written when Cicero was grieving from the sudden death of his daughter. I suggest these two translations, which cover the five themes: (a) "On Life and Death" (Oxford World's Classics); translation by John Davie; – this covers the themes 1, 2, 5, and other essays; and (b) "Cicero Emotions", by Margaret Graver – this brilliant volume covers the 4th and 5th disputations, with unparalleled commentary by Graver.
Bonus: "On the Good Life" (Penguin Classics) also reads well. It has two parts from "On Duties", and a few essays by Cicero, including one on friendship.
I'm 50 now, and this is going to be hard for me because I've got little practice in dealing with disability. Even now, I'm about to run a celebratory 50k rather than my usual yearly 42k marathon. I will never again break my best time, but it's my annual proof that I can still do this thing.
And yet it's coming. Bifocals are in my near future. I have very preliminary symptoms of prostate trouble. I'm not used to needing any kind of help for anything or having to take a pill every single day, but I need to get ready for that, because it's going to happen. Not today, not tomorrow, but soon, and for the rest of my life.
It could have happened at any point. I'm incredibly fortunate to be so healthy. I ate well-ish and exercised, but lots of people do more and become disabled through accident or less fortunate genetics. I think Cicero would agree that I've lived more or less nobly; I've done my best, or at least my pretty-good.
I'm not afraid of it being over, but I'm trying to figure out how to deal with "the same ills would befall him and all other old men". I don't expect acquired wisdom to suffice: I honestly don't think I've gotten any spectacular insights "reason and good judgement". As for the "old men [without whom] no state would have existed at all", I really don't think posterity is going to look kindly on us.
Posterity isn't really what I'm worried about. I just want to live a decent life, where "decent" has always been defined as being able to continue to do what I've always done. Doors will gradually close. There's a tee-shirt that they sell at marathons to the tune of "Some day I will not be able to do this. Today is not that day." At 50 I'm able to see the point at which today is that day. I've got a while to adjust to it, but the adjustment itself is uncomfortable, and Cicero's not really making me feel better.
There was a post not long ago on here by a young man (32 iirc?) that had a terminal illness and was sharing his final thoughts. One idea stood out to me, he said that getting old is a privilege that not everyone has the opportunity to experience. It was a new perspective for me on aging, perhaps the sentiment can be meaningful to you as well.
Edmond Halley (the astronomer and polymath who studied Halley's Comet) made a similar observation in 1693 after compiling the first modern mortality table.
> [I]t may perhaps not be an unacceptable thing to infer from the same Tables, how unjustly we repine at the shortness of our Lives, and think our selves wronged if we attain not Old Age; whereas it appears hereby, that the one half of those that are born are dead in Seventeen years time, 1238 being in that time reduced to 616. So that instead of murmuring at what we call an untimely Death, we ought [...] to account it as a Blessing that we have survived, perhaps by many Years, that Period of Life, whereat the one half of the whole Race of Mankind does not arrive.
I remember this post very well. The thought about ageing being a privilege stuck with me too. If I recall correctly, the post was titled "Leukemia has won" … It immediately comes to mind now when I hear people in their 40s or even 30s complaining about their age.
[1] I believe this is the one you're referencing from Elliot Dallen. It's a very insightful and beautiful post. And the reason I now read articles referencing old age, which once didn't register with me as much.
"Nobody should lament getting one year older, another grey hair or a wrinkle. Instead, be pleased that you’ve made it." - Elliot Dallen
I wish he wouldn't underplay it. I don't care about gray hair and wrinkles. I care about joint pain, friends dying, and eventually an inability to even take care of myself. Better than dying young? Surely. But it's harder than just being pleased despite cosmetic defects.
It's worth remembering here, when picturing it as a comparison or tradeoff, that there are a lot of ways to die young that are full of pain and suffering too...
My father's WW2 group had an 80% casualty rate. He didn't like growing old, but he was well aware it was a privilege far too many of his buddies didn't get.
The saying of two things in life being certain, death and taxes, implies death is tax free. Desires and aversions - like pay cheques and taxes - stoics yearned for freedom from both, and they appreciated end of life for freeing the soul from it's wantings and aversion for earthly desires and pain.
I'm 48, and have been a bit mid-life-crisis-y lately. One thing that's been bothering me is that the best times of my life are probably behind me. I don't mean the most productive, or the highest status, or whatever - I mean the most fun. I don't want to delight in the "consciousness of a life well spent and the memory of many deeds worthily performed". I want excitement, and adventure. My friends around me not reminiscing about the times we had, but HAVING THE TIMES right now. These things are getting more and more difficult to come by
I have been in the same situation. But the lack of adventure and excitement can be fixed if you make the effort. Problem is that you have less energy so it’s very tempting to spend the weekend sitting on a sofa instead of doing something.
My mom is a warning for me. She admits that she feels regret about not having done a lot of things when she was younger and now she can’t do them being 90 years old with a demented husband who needs constant care.
One thing to consider is that the bar for "the best time ever" never gets lower. To defeat this, I concentrate on "good times frequently". I've found that shifting the goal from "best ever" to "reliably enjoyable" works well for me.
You might want to check out the more poetically-sensible Seneca, who was born a little after his fellow Roman, Cicero, and wasn't particularly fond of him. Seneca too addresses the "growing old" topic quite often and incessantly in his (124 excellent) letters and other essays. Allow me to quote from his Letter 12 ("Visiting a childhood home"):
[quote]
"... Let us embrace old age and love it. It is full of pleasure if you know what use to make of it. Fruit is sweetest just before it spoils, boyhood most attractive as it is departing; when one is devoted to wine, it is the last drink that brings the most pleasure—the one that puts you under, giving the final push to inebriation. Every pleasure saves its greatest delights for its last moments. The most pleasurable time of life is on the downhill side, but before the drop-off . Even the time that stands at the very brink has its own pleasures, I believe. Or if not, then it has this instead: one no longer feels the need of any. How sweet it is to have worn out one’s desires and left them behind! ..."
<Skip the funny anecdote of a certain "Pacuvius, who used to hold funeral ceremonies for himself, with wine and the ritual meal" for brevity's sake.>
"The happiest person, the most untroubled possessor of himself, is the one who awaits the morrow without anxiety. Anyone who has said, “I have done living” rises profitably each morning, having gained one day."
[/quote]
Some more quotes from Seneca's letters here[+]. His Letter 26 is entirely about growing old.
PS: The English translation used to quote the above bits: Letters on Ethics [University of Chicago Press]
There's a lot to be said for the Stoics. The trick, I think, is that you have to begin it early. It's easy to skip the your-son-may-be-dead-in-the-morning when you're young and your son probably won't be dead. But if he dies, you can't pick up The Consolation of Philosophy and get sudden consolation. It avoids the unpleasant shift -- and perhaps just smoothes out the constant amount of unpleasantness over time.
Mix in a healthy dose of Buddhist 'life is in this very moment' and I think it's very possible to enjoy growing old, certain frailties notwithstanding.
On starting early, the Stoics imply what you say: it definitely plays to your advantage—the faults are not yet so deeply entrenched to the point that they're irreparable.
Agree on "no sudden consolation": Let's take Cicero himself, with all his treatises about how to bravely face death or pain, or how "the wise man is never unhappy", et al. When his daughter died unexpectedly, he was absolutely inconsolable (a normal reaction for any of us). His immediate response to suffering was to read: "At your house I read everything that anyone has ever written on the alleviation of sorrow," he wrote to a friend some three weeks after Tullia (his daughter) died, "but my grief defeats every consolation".
Physical health is fragile, but mental health can be robust for all or most of a long life. I think of Bertrand Russell.
I watched the US 2020 Election debate last night. At the risk of incensing lobbyists and dogmatic adherents of either side, let me say that it is humbling to see old people behave like fools.
Infirmity and death will come, but sometimes our Integrity shines at the right moments to inspire others.
Be here and now. I’m of similar age, have health problems, and realize that no worrying about having health problems in advance would’ve made me any more prepared.
Am I dying? Yes. Aren’t we all? Yes. Does saying that make me feel better? No. Does that matter? Yes, so I’ll not worry about it.
> I don't expect acquired wisdom to suffice: I honestly don't think I've gotten any spectacular insights "reason and good judgement".
How very sad. When I crossed 50, I thought (and still do think) that the physical decline was disproportionately compensated for by the greater wisdom, the more-spontaneous kindness, and the clarity of self-knowledge. I would not trade that to go back 10 years; even less to go back 20 years.
I expect if you look at notes you might have taken a few decades ago, you'd see on the uncertainty on one hand, the excess certainty on the other and think to yourself, thank God I don't have to climb that mountain every day anymore! At least, I hope that will be your experience.
I'm 62 now, enjoying the benefits of endurance sports and moderation in eating and drinking through most of my adult life. I know much of my relative well-being is due to genetics and luck. I know many family members, friends, and co-workers who have not been as fortunate, despite having been even more diligent in taking care of themselves. I see the frequent infirmities of my 10 year older friends who also took good care of themselves, and I know viscerally that my turn is coming. I'm happily beyond the ordeals of training and competition, and using this post-work healthy time to enjoy the wild places while I still can.
> Marcus Tullius Cicero was a Roman statesman, lawyer, scholar, and writer who tried to uphold republican principles in the final civil wars that destroyed the Roman Republic.
Cicero was a man who fought against the tribunes representing the vast majority of Roman citizens, and for the power of the idle class aristocracy which did not work.
He also was like an ancient embodiment of QAnon (which sees the US Democratic Party leadership as involved in a child sex conspiracy) - he accused populare aligned senators like Catiline of defiling the sacred Vestal virgins in Senate hearings.
Thanks. Any philosophy trying to make “old age” into something positive is a cop-out. There is nothing positive about seeing your mind and body slowly decay.
Those who live in the desert learn to worship thirst.
I can't remember where I heard this or what the exact wording is. But it's one of those sayings that reminds me to be wary of philosophies with ideals that happen to match my current situation.
Well, "old" is relative. There is a difference between being 60 and being 90 years old.
Does getting wiser, calmer, and more mentally balanced constitute a mind decay?
Doesn't the fact that you no longer have to exert yourself as much as you did before so in fact you have a better rest and sleep better mean that your body is doing just fine (not looking "young" notwithstanding)?
1. Older people put on muscle mass slower.
2. Their bones are more fragile.
3. Working memory ("fluid intelligence") decays starting in your early 20s for most people.
4. Cancer rates.
5. Cardiovascular disease rates.
6. Overall decline of sensory organs.
>Doesn't the fact that you no longer have to exert yourself as much as you did before so in fact you have a better rest and sleep better mean that your body is doing just fine (not looking "young" notwithstanding)?
I take it you (your brain) believe you are the sum of your body and your mind — here I’m presuming brain. Others over the centuries have disagreed. Many others. Billions of others.
And some of those say you can personally validate that you are more than your body+brain while you are living. I’m not in the business of selling any particular approach to do that.
But entering into a downward cycle of negativity about aging isn’t going to do you, and those few still around willing to put up with you, any favors as you get older. If there is more to it than body+brain, and choosing to not confirm it to yourself leads you into negativity and misery as you age...well doesn’t that just sounds like you’re dumber than a door nail?
> But entering into a downward cycle of negativity about aging isn’t going to do you, and those few still around willing to put up with you, any favors as you get older
Irrelevant.
> If there is more to it than body+brain, and choosing to not confirm it to yourself leads you into negativity and misery as you age.
If.
> well doesn’t that just sounds like you’re dumber than a door nail?
Throwing insults right out of the gate just makes you sound like a cheap troll :) If you have an argument to make, just cut the innuendo and make your argument. How did you "personally validate that you are more than your body+brain"? I don't want to assume anything, maybe you have something original to say that doesn't involve meditation, psychedelic drugs and Deepak Chopra.
If anyone here is giving, don't forget to check if your employer provides a matching fund. Many large companies do, so you can effectively double your donation.
Cicero, like many other philosophers of antiquity, places ultimate value on the goal of 'a life well-lived'. In this essay, he basically says 'old age is fine, if you lived a good life beforehand', and hedges by saying death's no big deal.
Which is, of course, rubbish. That's not really how life works: rewards rarely follow your efforts to live a good life. There are often no rewards at all; a life of diligent savings can disappear in an instant, physical fitness can end with cancer, faithfulness can end in bitter disappointment. Attempting to 'optimize' your life, your finances, your career often put you in places you never wanted to be.
The Buddhists come closer to what life is really about: life is not a journey, it's a dance. And you can dance anytime; old age can be joyous anytime you choose to dance--you don't need a 'good life' preceding it to make it good. Or, TL;DR: All you ever have in life is this one moment, right now.
Buddhism is closer to Stoicism than you think. There's plenty of suttas where the Buddha explains how virtuous behavior leads to good outcomes to you even in this life (like high regard among your peers), and even material rewards (like wealth). All good outcomes ultimately boil down to virtuous behavior. This is the workings of Karma, one of the most central concepts in Buddhism. In Buddhism, rewards follow virtuous behavior by necessity, and if not in this life, then in the next.
It's really odd of you saying that for Buddhism, life a "dance". This is really not what Buddhism is about. Sounds more like Nietzsche to me (an anti-buddhist). Buddhism is about virtue, the four noble truths and following the noble eight-fold path.
'old age is fine, if you lived a good life beforehand' - this truly rings true in Buddhism, as your actions in this life determines your place of rebirth in the next.
To me, the only "hope" was cryonics, until I learned that they really do destroy the cell in its original form (to which it cant be restored) in the process.
That, and how virtually every company loses tanks (mainly through power failure) and then says oops.
Speaking of failure, either Thiel and Brin are doing just that on the topic, or they are really good at keeping secrets.
"Those who live in the desert learn to worship thirst."
— vharuck
There's no reason we should accept the consequences of old age without a fight. Donate to SENS, or even better, dedicate your own work to extending human healthspan.
I see a very common misunderstanding of Stoic thought in this thread. It doesn’t advocate passivity. As a matter of fact, the Roman Stoic school was a school of many doers and had a very cosmopolitan outlook.
Stoicism simply advocates an indifference to things outside of your control. You should not be perturbed by your emotions; your perceptions and reactions are the roots of your suffering. In our reality, and Cicero’s before, old age and death are inevitable. That does not mean we cannot attempt to prevent it or research a “solution” to it. It simply means in the interim our opinion of it should not perturb your inner peace (easier said than done!). The one thing you almost always have control over (forgiving biochemistry :D) are your opinions about things.
If that research was fruitful, then it _would_ be something in our control and the Stoic evaluation of it would change. Cicero‘s comments here are contextual and, I might add, beautiful.
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[ 3.7 ms ] story [ 162 ms ] threadEDIT: whoops, it was the 50th anniversary tour of 2016. They didn't do My Generation in Seattle in 2019.
(and I admit to having a morbid, in the main, achiral habit on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24250512 )
But we remember him for his philosophies and writings (or his summaries of other’s philosophy for the more cynical), which did seem to have a impact on future generations.
On one hand, all men fall short of their ideal. But do you really think character qualities such as Cicero’s erase the positive influence he might have had despite them over the longer term?
I struggle with this and it’s a genuine question. On reading his biography I was put off on the man himself more or less, while at the same time his words seem to inspire.
A man's retch should exceed his grasp, or what's a-heaving for?
"The power which the strong have over the weak, the employer over the employed, the educated over the unlettered, the experienced over the confiding, even the clever over the silly -- the forbearing or inoffensive use of all this power or authority, or a total abstinence from it when the case admits it, will show the gentleman in a plain light." -- General Robert E. Lee
"The nobles would still be in charge if they'd cared more about fruits than about roots." -- Emperor Napoleon Bonaparte
[1] that is, for judging the ideal. Judging a messenger by the ideals they profess to aspire is a different matter.
“Be true to what you said on paper.” – Martin Luther King, Jr., April 3, 1968.
[2] compare https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23378137
I saw what you did there.
In his telling, the Catiline Conspiracy was a product of its time: Marius and Sulla showed the Roman aristocracy that if you just ignored the law and had popular support + an army, you could basically do whatever you want, and so that became the norm for the next generation.
At the time, Cicero was one of the two Consuls, the heads of state that were elected yearly by the senate. And Pompey, a charismatic and popular Roman general was in command of a large army and had just won some wars in the east. Cicero was afraid of what Pompey might do with all his popularity and legions (again, ambitious men taking what they wanted by flouting laws was all the rage).
So when Cicero learned of a (not very well-organized) coup was being organized by senator Catilina, he attempted to use it as a way to unite the Roman senate against treasonous behaviour.
Cicero convinced the senators, and Catilina was exiled, protesting that he'd been mistreated. But he went and joined the army of centurion Manlius, who was helping organize the rebellion.
The rebels then tried to get a Gallic tribe, the Allobroges, to join them, but were betrayed to the senate and letters they had sent were used by Cicero to convince them to sentence five of the conspirators to death without trial.
Julius Caesar, at this point just another politician, protested this "sentenced to death without trial" outcome loudly, seeing Cicero as an enemy of his own ambitions.
For the rest of his life, putting five men to death without trial would be brought to discredit Cicero again and again, including being used as an excuse to exile him.
@throwanem -- does that sound like a reasonable summary of the context of your comment?
And that is how I recall that period of time. It’s one of those situations where you let the reality of the situation deviate you from your ideals, I think.
@throwanem - have you ever read anything where he commented in hindsight that he still believed that he made the right choice? I’m newer to Roman history and sounds like you might have experience / background here.
I struggle with the same question you raised in your other comment, and find it often difficult to credit ideals which even their own strongest proponents prove unable to uphold when it seems to matter most.
>For to those who have not the means within themselves of a virtuous and happy life every age is burdensome
Take the way things are done currently which you more or less accept as normal, e.g. the state demands part of your income with the threat of force if you don't comply. Fast-forward to a new age when taxes have been abolished since the invention and perfection of the matter compiler (think 'Diamond Age') and imagine reading about how the government enslaved the populace. You need to interpret written words in the context of the place and time they ware written, if you try to literally apply them to the current situation things go south pretty quickly.
I find the constant ranting about taxation here very trying, I frequent many financial and more "right-wing" forums, but HN is the only place I commonly see the taxation is theft argument made seriously on a regular basis.
I'd love to know why that is, but it appears to be one of life's great mysteries.
My mother's advice on this still stays with me: never look at your gross pay, and you'll be much, much happier.
It might help you understand that your rant is misplaced since my comparison only works because taxation is seen as something normal in current society. Had it been seen in the light you portray it the comparison would not hold.
However, I note that I didn't refer to HN as one of these "right-wing forums", rather I was speaking about financial news, which I would naively have expected to be more anti-taxation than a forum populated by people working on the fruits of a massive forty year defence project (the Internet/WWW).
Like, I personally disagree with you that taxation will be seen in those terms, but given that both of us will (probably) be dead before such a matter compiler exists, it's probably a moot point.
And by the way, my comment was not a rant (I don't think I've ever ranted on HN, to be honest, as tone doesn't come through well on the internet).
Maybe someday we'll meet in person, and you can actually listen to a rant of mine (normally entertaining, even if you disagree).
Anyway, taxation is liberty!
Most people treat taxation the same way they treat automobiles or software, in that as long as the features they do want are available for a price they're willing to pay, they don't worry much about also getting the rest of the bundle which they don't want.
On HN, one is more likely to find people who massage dotfiles and dependencies to get specifically what they want and not what they don't (if not necessarily more likely to find people who scratch build their car to contain only the features they wish?), and so one also is more likely to find people who wish to unbundle taxation.
No, I did not just turn a point about slavery into a rant that you have to pay taxes. I used taxes as an example of something which might be seen in a totally different light in some future society. I might as well have used the Indian caste system or some religious dogma but did not, instead I used something which everyone has experience with.
Also, lol, seriously? Is this Hacker News or is it Slashdot?
Epictetus, a Roman slave, probably crippled by his master.
I would also say look up James Bond Stockdale (yes that is really his name) - we was a POW in Vietnam for seven years. He refers to Epictetus and Stoic philosophy as the reason he survived with his mental health.
I’ll see if I can find a link to two papers of his that are public source
He has a couple other books and collections of writings. If you are looking for real world applications of Stoicism, there isn’t much of a better person.
The Christian religion in Europe got its start mainly with slaves and poor people. I am not familiar with the details of early Christianity in Rome, but I suspect there are likely major Christian saints who were in fact slaves.
Bilal, a slave who was one of the vanguard of Muslims, also has a pretty exalted rank. There were other slaves, mainly in the mystic track of Islam, that are also highly regarded for their “virtue” and apparent perfect peace with God (“happy”?).
The Human experience is ultimately an internal, subjective affair between the human and (perceived) Reality (aka God).
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/50040/50040-h/50040-h.html#c...
Given that doctrine in 516, it's no wonder the early christian church appealed mainly to slaves and poor people.
[1] St. Benedict is not fond of Sarabaites.
Besides the "On Old Age", some recommended English translations of his works:
• On Duties — this volume is divided into three 'books'; the first 'book' covers Stoic ethics in highly compressed form. Recommended English translation: "Cicero On Duties (Cambridge Texts in the History of Political Thought)"; it also has very useful footnotes.
• Tusculan Disputations — horrendous name (more correctly called: "Discussions at my villa in Tusculum"), but excellent content. It covers five themes ("disputations"); two of them written when Cicero was grieving from the sudden death of his daughter. I suggest these two translations, which cover the five themes: (a) "On Life and Death" (Oxford World's Classics); translation by John Davie; – this covers the themes 1, 2, 5, and other essays; and (b) "Cicero Emotions", by Margaret Graver – this brilliant volume covers the 4th and 5th disputations, with unparalleled commentary by Graver.
Bonus: "On the Good Life" (Penguin Classics) also reads well. It has two parts from "On Duties", and a few essays by Cicero, including one on friendship.
Typo: "4th and 5th" --> "3rd and 4th" (1st, 2nd, and 5th are covered in "On Life and Death")
And yet it's coming. Bifocals are in my near future. I have very preliminary symptoms of prostate trouble. I'm not used to needing any kind of help for anything or having to take a pill every single day, but I need to get ready for that, because it's going to happen. Not today, not tomorrow, but soon, and for the rest of my life.
It could have happened at any point. I'm incredibly fortunate to be so healthy. I ate well-ish and exercised, but lots of people do more and become disabled through accident or less fortunate genetics. I think Cicero would agree that I've lived more or less nobly; I've done my best, or at least my pretty-good.
I'm not afraid of it being over, but I'm trying to figure out how to deal with "the same ills would befall him and all other old men". I don't expect acquired wisdom to suffice: I honestly don't think I've gotten any spectacular insights "reason and good judgement". As for the "old men [without whom] no state would have existed at all", I really don't think posterity is going to look kindly on us.
Posterity isn't really what I'm worried about. I just want to live a decent life, where "decent" has always been defined as being able to continue to do what I've always done. Doors will gradually close. There's a tee-shirt that they sell at marathons to the tune of "Some day I will not be able to do this. Today is not that day." At 50 I'm able to see the point at which today is that day. I've got a while to adjust to it, but the adjustment itself is uncomfortable, and Cicero's not really making me feel better.
> [I]t may perhaps not be an unacceptable thing to infer from the same Tables, how unjustly we repine at the shortness of our Lives, and think our selves wronged if we attain not Old Age; whereas it appears hereby, that the one half of those that are born are dead in Seventeen years time, 1238 being in that time reduced to 616. So that instead of murmuring at what we call an untimely Death, we ought [...] to account it as a Blessing that we have survived, perhaps by many Years, that Period of Life, whereat the one half of the whole Race of Mankind does not arrive.
1. http://www.pierre-marteau.com/editions/1693-mortality.html
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19203617
My mom is a warning for me. She admits that she feels regret about not having done a lot of things when she was younger and now she can’t do them being 90 years old with a demented husband who needs constant care.
Oh you can! But it sounds like you would be giving up something in exchange?
[quote]
"... Let us embrace old age and love it. It is full of pleasure if you know what use to make of it. Fruit is sweetest just before it spoils, boyhood most attractive as it is departing; when one is devoted to wine, it is the last drink that brings the most pleasure—the one that puts you under, giving the final push to inebriation. Every pleasure saves its greatest delights for its last moments. The most pleasurable time of life is on the downhill side, but before the drop-off . Even the time that stands at the very brink has its own pleasures, I believe. Or if not, then it has this instead: one no longer feels the need of any. How sweet it is to have worn out one’s desires and left them behind! ..."
<Skip the funny anecdote of a certain "Pacuvius, who used to hold funeral ceremonies for himself, with wine and the ritual meal" for brevity's sake.>
"The happiest person, the most untroubled possessor of himself, is the one who awaits the morrow without anxiety. Anyone who has said, “I have done living” rises profitably each morning, having gained one day."
[/quote]
Some more quotes from Seneca's letters here[+]. His Letter 26 is entirely about growing old.
PS: The English translation used to quote the above bits: Letters on Ethics [University of Chicago Press]
[+] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24400629
Agree on "no sudden consolation": Let's take Cicero himself, with all his treatises about how to bravely face death or pain, or how "the wise man is never unhappy", et al. When his daughter died unexpectedly, he was absolutely inconsolable (a normal reaction for any of us). His immediate response to suffering was to read: "At your house I read everything that anyone has ever written on the alleviation of sorrow," he wrote to a friend some three weeks after Tullia (his daughter) died, "but my grief defeats every consolation".
I watched the US 2020 Election debate last night. At the risk of incensing lobbyists and dogmatic adherents of either side, let me say that it is humbling to see old people behave like fools.
Infirmity and death will come, but sometimes our Integrity shines at the right moments to inspire others.
Be here and now. I’m of similar age, have health problems, and realize that no worrying about having health problems in advance would’ve made me any more prepared.
Am I dying? Yes. Aren’t we all? Yes. Does saying that make me feel better? No. Does that matter? Yes, so I’ll not worry about it.
How very sad. When I crossed 50, I thought (and still do think) that the physical decline was disproportionately compensated for by the greater wisdom, the more-spontaneous kindness, and the clarity of self-knowledge. I would not trade that to go back 10 years; even less to go back 20 years.
I expect if you look at notes you might have taken a few decades ago, you'd see on the uncertainty on one hand, the excess certainty on the other and think to yourself, thank God I don't have to climb that mountain every day anymore! At least, I hope that will be your experience.
Cicero was a man who fought against the tribunes representing the vast majority of Roman citizens, and for the power of the idle class aristocracy which did not work.
He also was like an ancient embodiment of QAnon (which sees the US Democratic Party leadership as involved in a child sex conspiracy) - he accused populare aligned senators like Catiline of defiling the sacred Vestal virgins in Senate hearings.
SENS[0] is a 501(c)(3) public charity directing and funding such research.
[0]: https://www.sens.org/
I can't remember where I heard this or what the exact wording is. But it's one of those sayings that reminds me to be wary of philosophies with ideals that happen to match my current situation.
Does getting wiser, calmer, and more mentally balanced constitute a mind decay?
Doesn't the fact that you no longer have to exert yourself as much as you did before so in fact you have a better rest and sleep better mean that your body is doing just fine (not looking "young" notwithstanding)?
I really wish I could believe your post though.
yeah but you die.
And some of those say you can personally validate that you are more than your body+brain while you are living. I’m not in the business of selling any particular approach to do that.
But entering into a downward cycle of negativity about aging isn’t going to do you, and those few still around willing to put up with you, any favors as you get older. If there is more to it than body+brain, and choosing to not confirm it to yourself leads you into negativity and misery as you age...well doesn’t that just sounds like you’re dumber than a door nail?
Irrelevant.
> If there is more to it than body+brain, and choosing to not confirm it to yourself leads you into negativity and misery as you age.
If.
> well doesn’t that just sounds like you’re dumber than a door nail?
Throwing insults right out of the gate just makes you sound like a cheap troll :) If you have an argument to make, just cut the innuendo and make your argument. How did you "personally validate that you are more than your body+brain"? I don't want to assume anything, maybe you have something original to say that doesn't involve meditation, psychedelic drugs and Deepak Chopra.
Which is, of course, rubbish. That's not really how life works: rewards rarely follow your efforts to live a good life. There are often no rewards at all; a life of diligent savings can disappear in an instant, physical fitness can end with cancer, faithfulness can end in bitter disappointment. Attempting to 'optimize' your life, your finances, your career often put you in places you never wanted to be.
The Buddhists come closer to what life is really about: life is not a journey, it's a dance. And you can dance anytime; old age can be joyous anytime you choose to dance--you don't need a 'good life' preceding it to make it good. Or, TL;DR: All you ever have in life is this one moment, right now.
https://www.audiodharma.org/teacher/1/ https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=gil+fronsdal
https://fiveinvitations.com/about-frank-ostaseski/ https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=frank+ostaseski
It's really odd of you saying that for Buddhism, life a "dance". This is really not what Buddhism is about. Sounds more like Nietzsche to me (an anti-buddhist). Buddhism is about virtue, the four noble truths and following the noble eight-fold path.
'old age is fine, if you lived a good life beforehand' - this truly rings true in Buddhism, as your actions in this life determines your place of rebirth in the next.
Alan Watts--who had a thing or two to say about Buddhism--disagrees with you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERbvKrH-GC4
That, and how virtually every company loses tanks (mainly through power failure) and then says oops.
Speaking of failure, either Thiel and Brin are doing just that on the topic, or they are really good at keeping secrets.
There's no reason we should accept the consequences of old age without a fight. Donate to SENS, or even better, dedicate your own work to extending human healthspan.
See also: The Fable of the Dragon-Tyrant by CGP Grey — https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cZYNADOHhVY
Stoicism simply advocates an indifference to things outside of your control. You should not be perturbed by your emotions; your perceptions and reactions are the roots of your suffering. In our reality, and Cicero’s before, old age and death are inevitable. That does not mean we cannot attempt to prevent it or research a “solution” to it. It simply means in the interim our opinion of it should not perturb your inner peace (easier said than done!). The one thing you almost always have control over (forgiving biochemistry :D) are your opinions about things.
If that research was fruitful, then it _would_ be something in our control and the Stoic evaluation of it would change. Cicero‘s comments here are contextual and, I might add, beautiful.