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Ask HN: How can I escape my third-world country?

72 points by Strahdivarius ↗ HN
I’m a single male living my entire life in a place that’s barely a few steps up from hell.

I have some skills and fluent English but: * Dropped out of high-school * In my mid-30s now * Not a good team player yet * Holding the passport of a country almost nobody wants to deal with

I make about USD 2K a month from mostly passive income and have about USD 50K to invest, so I can support myself for a while.

I just want to live in a safe, clean country with a non-toxic culture (and preferably a cool climate).

What options do I have, apart from landing a lucky job or foreign wife?

I can provide more details in the comments, and thank you.

51 comments

[ 4.3 ms ] story [ 146 ms ] thread
seotut2
Unfortunately not in a position to help with advice. But I too am in a position that I'm struggling to escape from, and a steady income would be very helpful. Would you mind sharing how you created that income stream (of course, I'm not asking for specifics, just what general field, how long it took to create it, how many failed attempts were there before it etc).

As for getting out of your geographical area, money is usually very helpful. Many countries offer investor visas for instance.

goatcode
From which country is your passport issued?
[deleted]
(comment deleted)
babaganoosh89
I would take that 50k and get a green card marriage or the equivalent in other countries.
jpmoral
That would be fraud. As a recent immigrant myself one of my fears is that the high-trust culture that makes society work where I am now will devolve into a low-trust one that will make this place more like the third-world country I escaped from.
Mediterraneo10
Mariages blancs for papers have been a common thing throughout the West for many decades now, pretty much since immigration laws were first introduced. It is hard to say that this has harmed the high-trust status of those countries.
dudul
You're advocating for committing a felony that could send both spouses to prison for 5 years and cost them 1/2M in fine.
ta75687568
You could investigate the option of immigrating to the US as a Registered Nurse. Last I looked (which was some years ago) nurses were exempt from the Labor Certification requirement -- meaning you don't have to prove that there are no qualified Americans willing to take a particular job, because a long term shortage of nurses is assumed.
isr
I may be climbing up the wrong tree here, but I genuinely get the impression that the OP is actually from the US, and wants to leave it.

Or am I reading in between the lines of the cryptic opening post too much? Dunno ...

pyuser583
Said he holds a passport from a country “nobody wants to deal with.”

US Passports are pretty useful. Ranked 7th in the world for number of countries that allow visa free travel.

throw03172019
Although the USA passport is not as useful (currently) with many countries refusing entry because of COVID-19. Hopefully that changes in the next 6-18 months!
mnemonicsloth
You have a lot to work with: English. Computer and internet access. You seem smart. Your income gives you time to work and will let you travel to make connections. You're still young enough to learn. Maybe this is doable.

Let's talk. We can brainstorm something. Email's in my profile.

754dvhy
Canada had a points based residency system. The major issue here will be the lack of higher education.
simonblack
Your biggest difficulty at the moment is in discovering what country is "a safe, clean country with a non-toxic culture (and preferably a cool climate)."

I also would like to move to a suitable country. But .... There is no country on Earth at the moment which conforms suitably to my criteria.

For what it's worth, New Zealand while not particularly suitable is more suitable to me than other countries at the moment.

seafood
I was wondering if you could elaborate. Can you list the disqualifying criteria for a few countries? I'm really interested to see what disqualifies them for you.
simonblack
I see a big war coming in the next few years. So that means most of the countries that would be involved in that are out, that includes China, Russia, India, US, Europe, 5-eyes. That leaves most of Africa as a possibility,except that most countries there have internal strife. Most of central Asia and Middle-East also have internal and external strife.

Some non-aligned countries in South-East Asia are comfortably advanced and relatively strife-free: Malaysia, Indonesia. Some South (not North) Pacific countries are also possibilities, some South American countries are possibilities. The problem with all of these is that they are too small and powerless to be secure in a global conflict.

The most isolated country is New Zealand. It is advanced. It is not wracked by internal strife. It's main problem is that, being one of the 5 eyes, it will almost certainly be drawn into a global conflict. On the other hand, it is possibly sufficiently isolated to escape most of the conflict. Then again, it is very powerless and could easily be over-run by a dedicated task-force while its more powerful friends are kept busy elsewhere. (Think of what happened to Holland in WW2.)

As I said earlier, no country in the world meets my criteria at present.

sunstone
You could might try applying to immigrate to Canada. They allow over 300k immigrants a year and the biggest requirements are to not be too old and fluent in English (or French). Lack of an official high school diploma is tricky but you might be able to a) pass some kind high school equivalency test in your country or b) write an internationally recoginzed test (eg SAT or GMAT) if you can score well on those then it should count for something.

If you're not from a liberal democracy kind of place (eg any where that was a UK colony for instance) then your biggest adjustment might be culture. I've worked many very fine people who arrive here and think it's quite ok to voice an opinion like "I hate chinese." or "I hate Indians" or etc which is acceptable in their country but definitely not fine in modern liberal democracy.

FractalParadigm
> They allow over 300k immigrants a year and the biggest requirements are to not be too old and fluent in English (or French).

To add to this, another requirement is that you can prove you will be able to support yourself financially. With $2k/month USD of passive income (being equal to ~$2660 CAD as of this writing, or several hundred dollars more than full-time ON minimum wage) that might be considered 'enough,' and in the right location could absolutely be livable on without supplementary income.

You're absolutely bang-on with your second point though. Working with a lot of new Canadians in my line of work you can really tell who put in the effort of researching their destination country, and those who just wanted to get out of wherever they were. I actually have a really fun anecdote about this, I was training a guy who had recently moved here from Congo, early-40's and just an all-around great person. He was telling me how much research he did on various countries before he even considered moving, and found that not only would Canada be the best chance of a shot, but because he found our way of life more appealing than anywhere else. And he really meant it. I even asked why he didn't move to Quebec, as a native French-speaker, he told me he strongly considered it but wanted to learn English more than he wanted to immediately 'fit-in,' and even mentioned that with broken English he hasn't once had a problem fitting in or dealing with racism. He knew right from the beginning there would be a huge culture shock, but he mentioned that keeping an open mind and "standing back, to watch the flow of things, get a feel of how people handle the day-to-day" really helped orient himself in the first few weeks here. I still see him maybe once a week and we chat on the phone every here and there; he's helping me brush up on my French and always gives me little tidbits of what life was like "back in Congo," (he doesn't even call it home anymore, a direct quote; "Since I moved to Canada, I have been accepted with loving and open arms; this is my home now. I have no interest in going back.") while I help him out with the odd English word or phrase.

sunstone
Home is where the heart is. :)
nie100sowny
Place where there is no free speech is not modern for sure.
throway202010
If you're a good programmer consider moving to Sweden for these reasons:

* Many reputable software companies have engineering offices there

* Obtaining a work permit is easy even for a high school dropout if you have a job offer

* Getting citizenship or permanent residency is easy

* Safe, clean and highly developed

* Almost everyone speaks english fluently

cpach
Finding an apartment can be very hard though, depending on what city. One should be prepared to sublet on short-time contracts. Otherwise Sweden is quite good. The weather sucks though :)
ghufran_syed
Can you explain what you mean by "Not a good team player yet"? If I didn't have any other information, I would have to assume this means "someone who often argues or fights with colleagues"
mdifrgechd
I feel like it means this person is self aware enough to know this is something they have to develop, which is a step beyond most people's awareness. I'm speaking from experience, I spend the first 30+ years of my life in academic roles where I never had to care about getting along with people, I didnt even realize it was something that was missing until I started working in the private sector. If the OP knows they have this to work on, that should be construed positively in my view.
scotty79
I think middle and eastern european countries are decent enough and shouldn't be too hard to get into if you can land IT job and cheap enough to live in with your passive income.

Maybe Czech Republic? Or Estonia?

satisfaction
You shouldn't escape, you should find a way to change it from the inside.
jpmoral
Some days, my guilt of having left country and family, of not living up to a promise made to a teen-aged self, rises to the surface. I have my own rationalisations, and over video calls my parents tell me the choice I made was the right one for me and my family. Still, some days I think of what-might-have-beens and what-could-bes.

You might be right, but it's not as clear-cut as you make it to be.

satisfaction
I just assumed everyone who read this would understand that revolution is hard, dirty, and complicated. But unless those corrupt countries are to be surrendered forever, what I said is the actual solution: someone smart and resourceful enough to make it another country needs to rally the people and takeover.
Const-me
I expatriated from Russia a decade ago. There's no way to change it from the inside. Armed rebellion might help but chances of winning are slim.
satisfaction
The Putin Gang seems to rely heavily on fake election results. Simply need to reverse-corrupt the small group of individuals that collate the ballots and the small group of media bosses who disseminate the results. That might be a start.
Const-me
> Simply need to reverse-corrupt the small group of individuals that collate the ballots

On the lowest level, all school teachers are involved.

On the highest level there’s central election committee, these people aren’t just doing that for money, pretty sure their lives are at stake too.

The system’s redundant, any of these levels is enough to falsify the results. I remember a screenshot from national TV where percent of votes cast added up to 146%. They later explained it was a technical error.

> and the small group of media bosses

Too late, almost no independent media are left there. These media bosses are all Putin’s people. Officially, all major media is state-controlled media, including so-called “opposition” media.

> That might be a start.

Will cause no changes until majority of people gonna support an armed revolt. Not sure that’s going to happen, ever. People don’t believe in democracy, don’t believe they can change anything, and were forced to comply to corrupt authorities for centuries now. Here’s a short story from 19-th century to illustrate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mumu_(Turgenev)#Plot_summary be sure to check “prototypes” section.

A recent illustration, couple days ago an editor of a local independent newspaper in a city 400km away from Moscow publicly set herself on fire, and died after another episode of years-long political repressions. The 47 years old lady left a suicide note on facebook saying “Russian federation is responsible for my death”: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irina_Slavina_(editor)

In Tunisia in 2011, similar event started a revolution: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohamed_Bouazizi

In Russia in 2020, this changed nothing.

satisfaction
Then just give up and spread your cheeks forever.
Const-me
Fortunately, that was not the only option. Another one was give up and GTFO. Which I did.

BTW, more than 50% of my classmates and ex-colleagues did that, and more than 50% of these who did are working in FAANG companies. Probably due to legal stuff, i.e. larger companies have better immigration lawyers.

yen223
Without knowing where you're from, or where you intend to move to, I don't know if my experience will be helpful to your situation. Your country of origin, in particular, will play a huge role in how easy it'll be to migrate to your country of choice.

I grew up in Malaysia, and is now living and working in Australia. My journey was a typical one - I studied at an Australian university, lucked out and got sponsored for a job here, and I leveraged that to obtain permanent residency.

Australia has a lenient skilled-independent visa (the 189 visa), which doesn't require nomination, but does require certification. You can check online if you're qualified for it: https://immi.homeaffairs.gov.au/visas/getting-a-visa/visa-li...

If there's one piece of advice I can offer, it is to get proper certificates, preferably from an institution in your preferred country. Immigration departments look favourably on that.

alexmingoia
If you make $2,000 USD a month I think the worst thing you could do would be to move to a very developed country, since you will barely be able to survive on that income.

Consider moving to a developing but decent quality of life country where USD is strong. Thailand, Malaysia, Turkey, Argentina, etc.

datajack
I can vouch for that. Born and raised in Malaysia and living in Australia. With USD2K in Malaysia you can easily live a comfortable, with free healthcare, safe and decent life if you can ignore the institutionalized racism towards dark skinned people. Plus an environment very conducive to running a business. In Australia USD2K is peanuts. You will struggle to survive on that amount BUT on the other hand there is good social security and decency still means something(for how long more I have no idea).
gesman
$2k/mo in a passive income + $50,000 savings would qualify you for a decent quality wife :)

What prevents you from moving to "safe, clean country with a non-toxic culture (and preferably a cool climate)"?

Ok, we can cross out Monaco, but there are still lots of options on a table?

santa_boy
Not sure what your requirements are. But, you are very well off by developing country standards. Since you are single and if you believe your income earning potential continues to stand good, here are two awesome, low budget places that come to my mind.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darjeeling https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerala

You won't even be compromising on city fancies or fantasies either. You could pick up a bike, car or flight anytime and to experience anything with the realm of availability.

From a factual perspective, you would have way more time for experiences and exploration than most city inhabitants waiting for that occasional (often stressful) PTO.

Happy weekend!

antoniuschan99
It may sound cliche but education is so easily accessible nowadays
dzhiurgis
Your savings and income is enough to get a small yacht and not stay anywhere really. That said getting tourist visas for most of the countries probably isn’t easy...
mleonhard
Education will open doors for you.

First, try to get your high school diploma. Ask the high schools in your country to give you an exam and then grant you a diploma. International schools can do this, too.

Pick a country. Then:

1. Attend a language school there. For example, the Mandarin Training Center at National Taiwan Normal University http://mtc.ntnu.edu.tw .

2. Take exams: TOEFL, TOEIC, local language competency, high school equivalency, college entrance, http://www.tw.org/tocfl/ , etc.

3. Apply to universities. Apply for scholarships. Every university has a student financial advisor who can help you get scholarships. Ask them for advice. Ask them to check your scholarship applications. Reply to every scholarship rejection with an appeal explaining why you need the money for school. I received a scholarship after sending an appeal letter. A lot of money is available to students who can show that they need it.

4. Attend university. Work part-time. Earn a 4-year degree. Consider earning a master's degree, too. A master's degree helps a lot with getting jobs and visas. It can also help you move to a third country later.

5. Get a job and apply for a work visa.

These steps are straightforward in many countries.

You can skip step 1 and save time & money. If you need an exam and nobody offers it nearby, take it in another country. Or ask your local university to administer the exam.

Good luck!

skitout
There are "golden visas" or residency by investment programs in many different countries, including some EU countries... Generally they require you to invest (much) more than 50K especially in developed countries... But there may be some opportunities there.

And there are entrepreneur visa in different countries too ; as reader of HN and someone having passive income looks like something that can be interesting... Estonia (https://startupestonia.ee),France (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24232025 https://lafrenchtech.com/en/how-france-helps-startups/french...) and Chile (https://www.startupchile.org/) come to mind but there are other option out there, including for tradition non-tech businesses.

I think that Chile - safe, clean country with a non-toxic culture (and preferably a cool climate)- also gives visas to people with passive income...

And Estonia have also a 1 year Digital Nomad Visa that may be used to test the water

chachan
If you are a developer or related to IT area, in Costa Rica though is a third-world country life is descent (I'm Venezuelan living in CR), look for opportunities in LinkedIn (where most of the job market here is), there are companies that sponsor work visa and your family can come too (mine is here). Also (not necessarily related to your question) Costa Rica announced they started working on a law to have "digital nomads" work here for a "long" period of time