Programmer salary in mainland Europe?
I have been applying for programming jobs in San Francisco and in Germany, the Netherlands, and other mainland European countries. I finally got an offer from a company in Austria but the salary was a lot lower than I was expecting, only 45,000 EUR (~$65,000 USD). This is even a "Senior" programmer position!
To put things in perspective, I also got an offer from a company in San Francisco that is a significant raise from my current salary, but that is to be expected given the current programming job market in SF.
I was expecting the pay to be worse in Europe, but not that worse. The company in Vienna insists that this is a fair salary for the region but I am finding this very hard to believe.
I'm not in this for the money at all, but I also don't want to sell myself short. Can anyone help me out with their experiences with programmer salary in mainland Europe? Should the disparity be this great?
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Working as Python developer with 4 years of experience. Close to 23.000 eur(net), and used to think it's quite good, after this message it's no longer true. Thanks guys ;)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purchasing_power_parity
The "2003" map may not be the freshest, but it gives a rough estimate. Relative to US:
i cant say anything about austria but in germany 36-40k€ would be a good starting salary for someone with a Diplom or M.Sc. straight out of college.
As a foreigner working in Belgium and you incorporate in a tax beneficial country you make a decent wage.
If you are going to work as a salaried employee you will take a lot less. So contracting work can be more lucrative.
But If I would go to work in Germany or any other Shengen country I could optimize better.
Now for an American you first need to get a work permit: http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/234826/how_to_move_...
Then your options are open: all tax free places are possible to start your company. You can google for these places.
45,000 EUR is above average programmer pay in Vienna (that is about the same as the highest offer I ever got here, for doing java enterprise stuff about a year ago).
Sounds about right.
However, as a contractor you can make significantly more (500-600 euros/day).
To give you a point of comparison, in Amsterdam (The Netherlands), I've known of several people with a salary like that, take or give 5k, and around 2-3 years of experience.
Suggestions: Check glassdoor, payscale and those types of sites. Remember to check how much tax you're expected to pay, some countries in Europe have very high taxes. Finally, cost of living, especially property, is a big factor in how much your money will be worth.
However, bonuses are (at least for me) much much lower working hours. Which means plenty of time for side projects.
The usual employe is expected to take all of his 6 weeks (in Germany the minimum is 4 but 6 is standard, in France I think its 8 weeks) of vacation even though there are lots of federal holidays and <40 hour weeks. Maybe you can even collect over hours for additional vacation. But don't expect to get paid for them, let alone 150%.
And yes French food is expensive. But com'on its French food!
As a cadre, I am not paid by the hour: I am paid to attain results. If I can do it in 35 hours, great. If I need to work more, so be it. I often work 40-50 hours, but it's a choice. And I have relatively flexible hours, as long as the job is done.
Now, while the actual number of hours worked varies, and nobody keeps count of those hours... my employment contract still specifies that I am supposed to work 37,5 hours / week. Which is more than 35 hours. Which means I get 9 RTTs / year.
Some cadres have contracts that specify they should work 39 hours / week, and they get 18 RTTs / year. Regardless of the actual hours worked (since they are paid by the results).
Some companies have contracts that specify their cadres work 35 hours / week, and they get no RTTs... Even though they often work a lot more.
As a cadre, I am not paid by the hour: I am paid to attain results ("you leave when your work is done"). If I can do it in 35 hours, great. If I need to work more, so be it. I often work 40-50 hours, but it's a choice. And I have relatively flexible hours, as long as the job is done.
Now, while the actual number of hours worked varies, and nobody keeps count of those hours... my employment contract still specifies that I am supposed to work 37,5 hours / week. Which is more than 35 hours. Which means I get 9 RTTs / year to "compensate" for working 2.5 hours more than I should (I work a lot more in reality).
Some cadres have contracts that specify they should work 39 hours / week, and they get 18 RTTs / year to compensate. Regardless of the actual hours worked.
Some companies have contracts that specify their cadres work 35 hours / week, and they get no RTTs... Even though they often work a lot more than that.
FWIW, I had 9 RTTs in my current and in my previous company. Both around 100-150 people.
(note: we should have 10 RTTs, but we lost one day due to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journ%C3%A9e_de_solidarit%C3%A9... )
So I guess, that's because there was a negotiation with your employer to work on a 37.5h per week basis and get 37.5 - 35 of compensating RTTs (hence the name, by the way).
I remember being paid on a 35h per week basis as a cadre a few years ago. I guess this is what led me to a broken conclusion.
BTW, I'm French too, enchanté.
I think it definitely depends on the company. Maybe I was "lucky" with my first two companies? (both SSIIs, with around 100-150 employees).
I got offered a job at a smaller company (a "PME" with less than 20 employees), and it did not include any RTTs... Which is one of the reasons I declined (since the compensation was not better anyway...). I think small companies have a special status re: RTTs, and do not need to give them.
In the last company I was working there were also developers getting 60K. But they had around 10 years of experience.
As an indication for taxes: €45k before taxes would probably be around €30k after income taxes in the Netherlands.
If you want to live in Austria, why not work in London and just commute ;-)
Also, keep in mind that these places are all based in London, so you have to factor in either relatively high accommodation costs or a significant amount of both time and money on the commute.
Also also, when you deal with these guys, you are usually not selling your services so much as your soul, because you aren't going to have much time and energy left to enjoy your off hours for as long as you're working there.
(I've been invited to work at these places but never taken them up on it, and having seen the effect it has had on some of my close friends, I have never regretted going a different way.)
The work culture depends very much on the bank, the British/French/German banks tend to be much less work obsessed than the American and Japanese ones.
Well done anyway ;-) As a lead dev myself I totally agree that people strong with multi-threading and networking are rare.
Typically you get to keep more (generally 73%-75% of the amount), but you'll also need an accountant to minimize your taxes and that'll cost you about a grand a year. But in most cases it's worth it.
However, you have to take into account, that, as far as I can tell, this already includes quite a decent federal retirement package. Additional private retirement plans are getting standard here now, but up until quite recently, lots of people would be happy with their federal ones. My parents for instance never bought a private plan.
Depending on what you prefer, there can be more bang for the buck, or quality of life. For instance in my hometown Munich, rent might be higher than in any other German city but even for European standarts its a joke. You can easily live in the center for way under 1000 Euro per month if you're not to picky. You can prob. reach everything incl. work, city parks and even mountains without a car. In theory bike + train can get you anywhere. The crime rate is a LOT lower. The best beer in town costs about 50 cents per bottle. There are almost know bums on the streets. And so on...
As far as I can tell if you try to save money, the US is the better place to be a high demanded employee. If you want to enjoy life, maybe central Europe is better for you. Oh, and last but not least, don't expect to find a start up community, larger than a few dozen entrepreneurs.
Wrong guess, they do pay more. I worked for IBM R&D Germany right after graduation and my salary was more than 45k, even excluding overtime, which was paid extra.
As for Germany, there's also a gap in salary depending on the size of the company you work for. Generally, larger cooperations pay better than smaller ones, so if you're looking to make more money, go for the bigger players.
And many employes don't get paid overtime. They officially have to take vacation, which again is usually not possible due to project pressure. Hence, many vacation days become void after deadlines.
I don't have any good data on this, just what I hear from my peers. So my post is as anecdotal as yours. However, if you look at the Heise report, my numbers are not so far off.
I second your last point, but thats not a German/European uniqueness, right?
For example in France: a salary of 50k€/year like me, you should add 30% of tax paid by the compagny you would have paid from your own salary in US.
This salary is brut. You could retire 20% of direct tax on it. So it give a ~3000€ net by month.
Benefits paid by tax: - health insurance (70% rembursment for standard care like a flu, 100% for emergency or expensive care) - retirements (vary in function of the employment status, but count 60% of the 10years best salaries) - job insurance (6month to 80% of the previous salary, from memory, need to check)
All of this you have to pay from your US salary. If you want to compare a US salaty with an european one, you have to factor all the social benefits you would have to pay in US.
Still bad though. :)
As for retirement, there is social security in the US, although not many people are happy to base their retirement plans on receiving social security checks. Whether the European retirement systems will fare better, the time will show.
I believe you have a point with respect to severance packages.
I agree that there are so many things you can hardly put a prize on. Heck, I'm sure for many people living close to Christiania in Kopenhagen is a quality of life they would miss elsewhere.
Previously, I worked in Germany and I earned about the same amount (before taxes), probably a bit more afterwards. However, you can't and shouldn't compare the dollar amounts directly.
First of all, the taxes are higher (especially in Sweden), but you get more out of them. Health care, for instance, is excellent and is completely taken care of, whereas this is usually calculated as a "benefit" in the US. It's not uncommon for Americans to get shafted on the health insurance or to have to pay it themselves if they are independent contractors. Also, vacations benefits here are also very ample compared to the US. Five weeks per year is standard in Sweden, most professionals get six.
Also, I don't need to own a car here. That saves a ton of money, time, and mental health. I bike/walk/take public transport everywhere here. This is only possible in a handful of American cities, of which I have never personally lived in.
Stockholm is expensive, but the quality of life here is worth it. I consider myself very lucky to earn as much as I do, and I enjoy the life that I have here, which you can't put a price on.
Yeah, we have substandard salaries and we are not that crappy. This could be the reason why many London based companies are installing here their dev shops.
I work for one of them :)
So what are you in for? Are you looking to live in Austria for personal reasons or is the new job scope intriguing?
If former is the case, maybe sticking to your current employer and telecommuting is an option? Or you could keep ties to the US and do contracting work remotely?
to be noted, the salary variation in Germany is actually quite huge with Munich, Stuttgart, Hamburg (and some other high salary areas) being at the top. in some rural areas you might only get half the pay as in these metropolian areas.
More or less in the range I told in my comment :)
It's true that in BCN and Madrid things are better, but not that much. And in London you can earn more than 60K per year.
Spain is near Poland in salaries, we have tons of people with CS degrees (which doesn't means that they are good at programming) that make the salary lower by offer/demand law.
To put in perspective: rent a flat (average in the south) 600 EUR/months, buy a car 10.000EUR/30.000EUR, buy a house 150.000 EUR. And that's the south, in BCN you can increase rent and house price nearly by 100%.