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It's probably worth listing what depressive symptoms are above the survey
For this poll to be accurate, I think a list of agreed exact symptoms needs to be included.

E.g. I have no idea what depressive symptoms are.

Feeling of dread, hopelessness, or lack of motivation to do normal tasks. Not just for work, but for things you typically enjoy doing -- so more than just procrastination.

This can be caused by anger, despair, loss of a loved one, brain chemical imbalance, alcoholism, drug addiction, etc.

Severe symptoms would including thinking about harming yourself or others.

That's part of the problem. No one else has an idea what depression is ether, even professionals.

For example here are two things drastically different and the medical industry considers both to be depression:

1) Being overly pessimistic and skeptical to the point of believing nothing is worth trying and nothing can be done. "Nothing I try will ever help me. My depression will last forever." This can come in the form of rationalizing why nothing will work when they have a problem, so they get suck. (An example of learned helplessness.)

2) Catching a chronic cold that may or may not cause irritable bowel syndrome that has the side effect of inflammation in the stomach which then in turn minimizes or outright removes the ability to feel positive emotions. Some may experience other side effects beyond inflammation, like long term cold symptoms where they want to lay in bed all day, not socialize, or do much. They feel sloth-like in an identical way to one feels when they have a cold, minus the sinus pressure and coughing.

What’s special about the last two weeks? Or is this someone trying out the poll creation feature on HN?
Election?

News that covid can cause neurological deficits in 20% of infected + increased rates of infection?

Selection bias.
That statistic, though I'm still skeptical of it, doesn't really surprise me that much. At least 20% of the people I know are very neurotic, and I could picture them traumatizing themselves over the possibility that they might die from COVID. I know several people who are deathly afraid of the disease, and a few whom are hypochondriacs to begin with and haven't left their homes in the last 8 months. I would bet good money that, if they became infected, they would give themselves permanent mental scars over it.
This is actually a pretty standard question by psychiatrists. It's because the DSM-V criteria for Major Depressive Disorder is "Depressed most of the day, nearly every day..." - and it's one of several other features you have to match within a 2 week period to match it.

It's a fancy way of saying "The unusual depressive episode (which can be normal) has lasted at least two weeks (not as normal)". How that exact number was determined I'm not sure (though it was the APA), but that's the standard everyone follows.

EDIT: I believe a variation of this question is standard as part of the PHQ-9 which is a screening/benchmark quick self-assessment for depression.

The US elections were in the last two weeks, the pandemic continued to get worse in Europe and the US, and Pfizer / BioNTech's vaccine news came out in the last two weeks.

Maybe the parent was considering the potentially depressive nature of facing lockdowns again.

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I've never felt like life has no joy in it, I'm highly motivated to achieve my goals and I think they're worthwhile goals.

The thing is, I think I won't achieve those goals, and that makes me anxious, not medically anxious, but there's this constant felling of dread.

So, I wouldn't say I'm depressed, but I have this constant dread that accompanies me everyday.

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That's actually medically anxious. One doesn't need panic attacks, or even really dysfunction to have anxiety. A constant feeling of aimless dread is classic anxiety. It also doesn't have to be aimless: when I'm anxious, I realize I mostly post-facto create stories about why I'm feeling anxious. Sometimes there's a bona fide trigger, but other times I'm just inflating problems to justify my feelings.

Medication, meditation, therapy and exercise are great tools for improving quality of life. Not feeling constant dread is wonderful. 10/10 would recommend taking steps to alleviate.

Also: drink less coffee.
I drink decaf. ^_^

There is decaf out there as good as the best non-decaf coffee (I drink espresso, yum!) and it's a pretty short amount of time before the brain normalizes to decaf and it will wake you up without the negative side effects.

But yah, caffeine while anxious can be not a good time.

additionally: there is also decaffeinated tea (maybe sold as de-theinated or theine-free), which can be pretty good.
Any recommendations on brands for good decaf? I've never tasted decaf coffee that wasn't awful.
Decaf kind of necessarily tastes bad - the decaffeination process removes a bunch of the aromatic compounds that provide the pleasant flavor.

After an acclimation period, herbal tea can be a satisfying substitute.

If you're in the US: https://www.gocupper.com/ (No affiliation.)

I drink espresso so I'm biased towards certain beans. What you drink, how you drink, and ofc what your tastes are will drastically change what you like. I can tell you, if you don't use a burr grinder it can be hard to tell the difference between most high end beans, even for filter coffee, so there is more to it than just getting the world's best beans.

As far as high end beans go there are three primary categories:

- nutty

- chocolatey

- fruity

Often times nutty beans will be called chocolatey, because chocolate is considered a higher grade, but there is a difference. If you want to play with it, a fun goal is to find the best beans for your setup from each category. Chocolatey beans can be fun to explore with sweet 'n condensed milk sometimes as well, just for the fun of it. Nutty beans you usually can't taste unless you're using an espresso machine. It's typically subtle. Fruity is the kind of beans you'll typically find in a high end café in an urban area and can be quite good when brewing pour over. However, they can be high in acid, but a high end fruity bean will have low acid. Those are rare and tend to be reserved for espresso.

Years ago before Blue Bottle got bought arguably their best tasting beans was their decaf. I think they wanted to show to the world decaf can taste good. I guess it wasn't making money, because the first thing that changed when they got bought was the decaf switched to something not very good tasting. Since then I've been slowly going through decaf espresso beans all over the world trying to find something as good. I've found good beans, but nothing as good.

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are you enjoying working towards your goals? they're mostly right when they say it's the journey not the destination. goals are good when they're a part of the journey. as a means to an end... that's what they are. the end.

trust me young person, I've been on disability for depression for the last ten years! it's all been a purgatorius bad dream. align your goals with the work you love and tell yourself it's ok if you don't meet your goals.

I've reached many of my goals. for instance; flying an airplane. but i never was a fighter pilot like i wanted to be.

we are all a set of experiences. unique in this regard. that's the beauty of it all. so don't be less in by the prestige [see my recent posts on prestige ;]

Thank you. My goals are aligned with things I love, but it's still hard.
I dont think the poll should show the options in random order considering they're ordered in terms of frequency, it makes for a confusing setup
It makes sense in general, otherwise there's bias towards the top of the list. It's just this particular poll it doesn't work for.
I get depressed for 5 / 15 seconds once every few days. How do I respond to this poll?
That’s not depression - you’re experiencing sadness.
Only if their 15 seconds of depression are related to negative stimuli.
Since there's a link to 'unvote' next to the option that I chose, I can only assume that this poll is not anonymous and that my choice is stored with my username somewhere on HN's server.

It could also be cookie-based, but something to keep in mind if you have privacy concerns.

How would a better implementation of this work? They definitely need to store your username somewhere to prevent the same user from voting multiple times.

I imagine they could simply keep track of whether you voted or not, and not which specific choice you made. That way your choice remains private but we would not be able to show even you which choice you made.

I’m sure Reddit tracks each upvote and downvote individually and doesn’t just increment a score counter somewhere.

Votes on HN aren't anonymous in that sense. I don't think that polls should be treated differently than other kinds of upvotes, which already are very intimate data. We take protecting that data and keeping it private very seriously, but of course there's some risk in any such arrangement, so if you don't want any risk, your best bet is not to vote on HN.
I don't felt the need to see a doctor about what I'm experiencing, so I'm not sure if what I have qualifies as depression. But over the past several months, it feels like my entire personality and being is a rug that has been pulled out from underneath me. I'm no longer the driven and interested person that I used to be. I struggle to sit down and work - my brain feels scattered and no matter how much I sleep and rest, I feel so tired that my body literally aches. The only thing I really feel is a subtle sadness, like a background hum that feels like it's dragging me down. It also feels like it's never going to go away.

So is that depression? I have no idea, but I hate the feeling and I pray that once this pandemic is over, the symptoms will fade.

Yep, that's exactly what depression is like.
I think it's a good idea to see a doctor/therapist any time something changes in a way that interferes with your ability to be functional in daily life, for more than a brief amount of time. It sounds like that's the case for you.
That is exactly what depression feels like. It’s okay if you feel like you can navigate it without help. But if you feel like you would benefit from help but don’t know how/where to start, there are people and resources available to help you get there. Don’t let it get so bad that it’s an emergency before you’re ready to ask.
The good news is if you never had it in the past there’s a chance it may go away and not come back. Everyone goes through rough spots and this has been a weird year. Depression is a serious thing though, so don’t feel any shame in asking a professional about it.
>So is that depression?

Yep, but the cause in your case is unknown. For example, it could be work burnout causing it. It could be not going outside that is causing it. It could be not socializing that is causing it. It could be your diet. It could be ...

If you can identify the cause you can find a solution. Unfortunately, the best most people have is a shotgun approach where they try a combination of solutions attempting to address every possible cause.

When in a depressed state it makes you want to lay down, to do less. It's exhausting and depending on how bad the depression is sleeping seems better. For the majority, doing the exact opposite of how you feel works to get out of that state, which isn't easy for many, so it helps to take it slow. Sometimes just walking around in a circle in your house for 15-20 minutes can sometimes be enough. This can be done without getting dressed or even thinking about it. It can be done while cooking food or going to the bathroom. It's only 15 minutes and for many that is enough exercise to start feeling not drained again.

For many today depression can be caused by doing too much instant gratification type activities in your free time, which can cause that feeling drained feeling. I find having a hobby can help a lot, because then you're not bored. I find getting a hobby can be hard. It can come from a need, like being aggravated with something and wanting to improve it, but it also comes as a side effect from socializing with people. People talking about what they've been up to, what they're passionate about, or even what they hate, can all plant seeds of inspiration that can eventually lead to a hobby. So for some the solution to this kind of depression is socializing.

And it goes on. This is why talking to a professional (preferably someone who specializes in CBT, but it's not required) can help. It typically only takes a few months of therapy to get out of most kinds of depression.

This is a kind and thoughtful reply.

I would push back on the notion that there has to be a cause for depression. Maybe there is, but it can lead to the dangerous conclusion that it’s somehow one’s fault, when it’s actually a maladaptive behavioral state; a disease.

Fully agree with your advice to talk to a professional.

Thanks.

I see how that could be a concern. To address it, there can be causality without fault. Fault is a kind of blame. Blame is when you take out a timeline and put your finger down on an arbitrary part and say, "It's because of this." and fault is taking that arbitrary point and reducing the event down into actors by saying, "It's because of you everything went wrong."

Looking closely, fault provides no benefit. You can grow and improve by looking at causality. You can learn why someone did what they did and learn from that, which is far more beneficial than the overly reductionist fault. Fault as a default is a lazy way of thinking. Instead we can see the ignorance in ones decision, or the defensiveness in ones decision when they assume another was being harmful to them (eg arguing or retaliation), or we can see the short sighted selfishness in some rare situations (eg, narcissism). Fault is not necessary. It's a hindrance towards a higher resolution view and from that greater awareness comes greater learning capacity, a heightened wisdom, and possibly even heightened intelligence.

There are scenarios where there is not a clear cause that is within the person's control. Granted, I think your suggestions are great places to start, and helpful for many. That said, some cases of depression cannot be effectively treated without therapy or medication, and I think it's a bit... incomplete to suggest otherwise.
No one knows that until they've exhausted other options.

Hope is not a bad thing, unless you want to sit around and do nothing with your life and feel terrible. To be concerned with the impossible is a symptom and a cause of depression, called learned helplessness.

That's true, and it's a standard grief-mechanism to try to look for a cause. Especially people with an analytical personality. Their go-to emotional coping mechanism for bad feelings can become to try to analyzed and problem-solve. And while you can do that if your depression has an obvious cause. . . there are tons of people who are depressed for no obvious reason - OR - there is no way to get out of the situation that's causing it.

The solution in those cases is to not try to solve it, but instead to let the 'emotional' part of the brain do it's natural function and simply process the emotions. It's difficult because the emotional part of the brain does NOT have the ability to use language. It evolved hundreds of millions of years ago, and is the deepest part of our central nervous system, and absolutely necessary for our survival. It can not be shut off or ignored. And in the case of depression, it may or may not be "normal" - but it is doing it's job.

>The solution in those cases is to not try to solve it, but instead to let the 'emotional' part of the brain do it's natural function and simply process the emotions. It's difficult because the emotional part of the brain does NOT have the ability to use language. It evolved hundreds of millions of years ago, and is the deepest part of our central nervous system, and absolutely necessary for our survival. It can not be shut off or ignored. And in the case of depression, it may or may not be "normal" - but it is doing it's job.

If you try to fight stress (which masquerades itself as problem-solving) it will create more stress. When you're okay in the present moment -- you've let go and accepted how you feel through recognizing the stress is temporary like a rain cloud; it will go away without doing anything -- you can passively and non-interactively observe what is going on, which is the beginning of learning. This learning then turns into answers or at first something to talk about with a therapist. Therapy can help quite a bit with this one. This process of passively observing in a relaxed state no matter how bad you feel, is called meditation, and it's what you're talking about, "let the 'emotional' part of the brain do it's natural function and simply process the emotions".

>And while you can do that if your depression has an obvious cause. . . there are tons of people who are depressed for no obvious reason - OR - there is no way to get out of the situation that's causing it.

That's not really true though. The high majority (88%) of people who go in for CBT therapy are cured from their depression in under 3 months, and of the majority who do not, the largest group is avoidant of psychological work. Yes, there is a small subset of incurable depression. The current theory is it has to do with ones gut biome, but those are estimated to be around 1% of people with depression, and for the majority of those people antidepressants do nothing. They have this constant stomach ache. However, those people can still get benefit by learning how to deal with the situation and live a happy and healthy life. Eg, changing diet can remove many of the symptoms. Calling it depression is even somewhat controversial, because of how different it is from all of the other kinds of depression.

People have yet to realize how far modern psychology has come, in part because most psychologists today practice an ancient form that barely, if at all, helps.

Well said regarding “cause.” Depression often has a trigger, but that is separate from a cause. The trigger-and a pandemic is a great one-is just the thing that exacerbates an existing, possibly dormant, condition.
Great advice. I would add that another strategy that has been useful to many is that when you are feeling negative emotions stirring up uncontrollably, it’s important to remember they aren’t real. They are just feelings. At the end of the day all you have is your body, mind, health and wealth. However you feel about those things will change quite a bit throughout the average persons lifetime. What matters today might not matter tomorrow.
I think they are real. Just because they are a temporary state or contradicted by other real feelings doesn’t make them not real. For me it has been helpful to remember that how I’m feeling now is not the only way I’ll feel and how I’m thinking about a subject is not the only way I have to think about that subject. Feelings and thoughts change, as you said.
I think what suifbwish is getting at is the more meta-physical nature of emotions. What I mean by that is one has strong vivid thought about some doom that will come or some horrible thing that happened in the past and they are strong emotions. It's easy to get caught up in them and lose the present moment. When you lose the present moment your mind can not differentiate between now and a memory, so it thinks the memory is now and responds accordingly.

Memories and emotions are not "real" in that they are not the present moment, and being able to stay grounded in the present moment while having these thoughts can help. In metaphor, it's like pinching yourself while dreaming.

What imo helps the most is realizing everything is impermanent / temporary. If you have a particularly gruesome emotion you can know you don't have to do anything, because it will go away on its own, like a rain cloud, in due time. So you can relax even while freaking out.

> ... it’s important to remember they aren’t real. They are just feelings.

what helps me get through the day is exactly this. we're just a sack of liquid chemical that constantly chances its structure. the feeling I experience within a time span of 30 minutes alone between waking up and having my first coffee, or in between forcing myself to put on my running gear and returning from a run, are changing everything. and if things can change in only a few minutes, how I perceive the world over a longer time can too.

some of this comes naturally with age when hormones change. it does have upsides when not everything and everyone is able to spoil my day.

these days I make sure I do not add things into my life as the first approach but to see what I can subtract in order to troubleshot my body and feelings. only after I can't take anything away any more do I see what I might need (and where others earn money on me and are motivated to push me into that direction. some examples that help me personally battle decades of depression:

- eat only half the amount or try intermittent fasting for a month

- cut the booze or weed (one day a week max less if I can)

- take daily walks/runs of at least 30 mins.

- start the morning with a cold shower (prepares me mentally that my day might not be smooth and certainly won't start comfortable)

- leave your phone at home when going out and see how that makes you feel. if you think this is nuts or makes you uncomfortable think about why the lack of an electronic device makes you feel this way.

- always shower right after returning from work (or finishing work). matter of habit for me since I didn't always have an office job. it allows me to unwind and "wash away" all the work stuff. reminds me that I am now at home and prep myself to have different thoughts (if you prefer a bath that's cool but in my case with kids/family I never had time to disappear into the bath the moment I got home. 10 mins shower was always possible). I find this really valuable in a WFH scenario. these days I run/exercise right after work so the shower is simply needed anyway

in case of burn-out:

- compartmentalize my work and private life as much as possible (time wise but if possible also location: in WFH this means work-laptop/phone remains in my home-office powered down as an extra hurdle to avoid me popping in at 23:00 to check up on an important thought ...).

- in case of burn-out: maybe my job is, but my private life isn't a hamster-wheel. cut the training-plan crap and goal setting to a minimum. it's OK to just go for a run and not worry about reaching the correct times set out in the training plan in prep for a marathon where I'm competing against thousands of others. it's OK to compete for fun but don't overdo it.

but everything what parent & GP said too.

About brain fog, mind-wandering etc: I have this since at least 2012. It came with my burn-out back then and a complete melt-down and dissolution of my personality. I feel like my head is wrapped in cotton or there is some barrier between me and my outside world. at the same time I have this I also gained the ability of sitting still without any desire or urge to push forward with anything if I want to. Might be an age thing but I'm now able to play with my own thoughts all day long and don't get stressed by the idea of not communicating with anyone. I still enjoy company and conversation but I also value being able to spend time simply sitting there and thinking (like a lunatic perhaps idk).

> compartmentalize my work and private life as much as possible

Don't forget about "right livelihood"! :)

  doing the exact opposite of how you feel
It can be a surprising truth that you have the freedom to choose to do something, even if you don't feel you want to. Your agency is not enslaved to your emotions.

Another tack is to approach the activity as an experiment or exploration. Not I must do this, or even if I do this it will help, but: I wonder if it will help, or even I bet it won't, let's see who's right!

I see even when people can rationalize it correctly, that is see the long term gains from doing it, tend to still be enslaved to their present feelings if those feelings are strong enough. This is the struggle of depression.

I find for situations like that, the blastoff technique works well. When you find you need to do something, instead of thinking about it, start counting backwards from 5, like you're a rocket getting ready to blastoff. It takes 4-5 seconds for the other part of the mind to come in and override the action, so as long as you jump out of bed before that timer hits zero, it's easy. This way you can do whatever it is you need to get done regardless how you feel. You can always think about how to do it once you've gotten started. It sounds silly but it works very well and is super easy to do. A zen teacher once told me, "Don't think. Do." to mean basically the same thing.

> it takes 4-5 seconds for the other part of the mind to come in and override the action, so as long as ... before that

Meaning, for the stone age feelings parts of the brain, to realize that "but I want to stay in bed"?

If one acts faster than that part of the brain, then it's harder for it to mess things up? (Like, feeling sad, worrying, doing nothing)

Basically.
Ok I'll try this :-)

Work is fun though and getting up in the morning too, but ... Well there are a bunch of other things I've postponed for months now soon

This sounds more like depersonalization. It can be a symptom of cPTSD or schizoid personality disorder (which is sort of like cPTSD-as-personality).
Not a psych person, but depersonalization can also be a (mostly maladaptive) coping strategy for depression. GP's description sounds like simple depression to me though.
I lost years of my life to this stupid idea. GP: You are depersonalized. Get some real help outside of HN.
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Those are without a doubt some clear symptoms of depression. Two VERY VERY IMPORTANT THINGS:

1) A good first step is to see your GP, if you have one, and if you don't look up some reviews and find a decent one. If you're at the point where you lack the motivation to even do that, ask a friend or loved one to do it for you. If you don't have a resource like that around you, just click this link & put in your own zip code: https://www.healthgrades.com/usearch?what=General%20Medical%...

You see a GP first because they should run something like a complete metabolic panel along with tests for things like vitamin D levels. It's entirely possible to get mis-diagnosed with (psychological) depression when there is a more concrete metabolic cause.

Other readers, please please don't downvote this next part for language, use of caps, etc., this is seriously important

2) About it never going away. Oh hell that's the feeling all right. But here's the thing about a depressed brain telling you things: IT IS A FUCKING LIAR. Your mind tells you that, so you feel worse, and it feels even harder to over come, and the spiral continues. You CAN feel better. It might honestly be the hardest thing you ever do, but you have to claw back up inch by inch. Shit, inches can be hard at times. Go for millimeters when you need to. When you get pushed back down at times, IT'S TEMPORARY. Just keep taking that tiny step in front of you. One. Tiny. Step. Motivation is hard. Doing things you liked before is hard. Focus on doing small things. Focus on finding 5 minutes, or one minute, of distraction from your headspace at a time. A good simple technique is to overload your physical senses: 1) Light a candle/spray some scent 2) Put on some background noise-- music, anything 3) Fill a glass (real glass to conduct the cold) to the top with ice, and ANYTHING carbonated. If you don't do soda, go for seltzer or something. Wrap your hands around the cold glass. Keep it near your lips & take sips. You've got all 5 senses covered: Smell, sound, touching the cold, hearing the fizz of the bubbles, the taste as you sip & sensation of the carbonation. You're brain does have a bandwidth limit, and hitting all 5 senses saturates a lot of it. An ice-cold shower is also good. These things aren't silver bullets, aren't a cure: You're looking to get incremental periods of time where you don't feel like crap. Over time, they can build, and get easier. Look for other small 5 minute distractions that take you out of your head, whatever works. Getting out of this is a game of inches.

Finally: NONE of #2 replaces treatment. It's a single coping mechanism that can work to take the slightest edge off things. Therapy, medication if needed, those should be on your list for consideration. Maybe check out the DBSA: https://www.dbsalliance.org/support/ Groups are everywhere, and if that's not your thing or none are actually near you, they do daily online meetings. Talk or not, or just take it in. Sometimes knowing it's not just you can help, but you'll also hear how other people cope with this. A good inventory of coping mechanisms to take the edge off is very important.

IT WON'T LAST FOREVER. YOU CAN FEEL BETTER.

Just to geek out, a fun fact about why one often feels like depression will last forever is due to memory compartmentalization.

To most anyone thoughts that pop up in our head come out of a black hole, an unknown. What's actually happening is we're seeing something in the present moment (thinking memories in the present moment too) and that thing we're seeing causes an emotional response, often an unconscious one. The unconscious mind then looks for neighboring memories by emotional lookup and brings those familiar memories up into conscious thought, which is how ideas pop up in our head.

This is a pretty profound insight, because for example, it means when one is in a depressed state, if it is strong enough, all they can remember is memories of being in a similar emotional state causing a memory compartmentalization. This forgetting of positive memories makes depression seem like it's forever. One helpful thing is a photo of a good memory, or a letter to ones self, or another form of nostalgia, which can then pull the person out of the depressed episode. For some people it's enough to end the depression then and there in its tracks.

Likewise, from this understanding, it can be easy to see the challenge therapists face regarding depression and other memory compartmentalization related psychological disorders, because their patient forgets instructions that could help them when they need it most.

This also shows how manipulation works. How, emotional language can determine how a person thinks, programming them. One fun experiment is to watch a bit of Fox and look at the emotions instead of what they're directly saying. You'll start to see things like they're telling people to not trust others, for example, or like how they were saying anything regarding Biden is boring, so you shouldn't watch it, and so on. Manipulation is controversial to talk about, but so is depression, so fuck it. Let's have some fun. ^_^

you're quite right about this. although i would say that we do actually store memories in our bodies. this is where extended abuse and trauma really take their toll on people. think about shell shock in veterans. they train and train for combat. then they see combat and the trauma then embeds itself in the 'muscle memory' of training. then something random happens but triggers the muscle memory and the memories come flooding back.

same for say, abused wives. say they get out of their situation and meet a nice person. then one day that person gets angry that the dog shat in their best shoes and they have a fit which reminds her of her previous relationship. the memories come flooding back.

depression is the same. for me it's been a recurring failure of academic and meritorious achievements. in our society not achieving these things is like a frying pan in the face when you want to do something that requires experience say. sure, I've learned to duck, but everytime life swings a frying pan at my face [being fired, not meeting qualifications, being considered unreliable/unintelligent etc] all those old memories come back. so you end up dodging one frying pan and get hit by another, as if there were some kind of compound interest frying pan abyss. my metaphor for the muscle memory of depression. eventually you just take the hits cause what's the use in trying to dodge the pan?

i will say this though; after being on disability for a decade there is something bitter sweet about the rising levels of depression brought on by covid. while i don't wish depression on anybody whatsoever, and hope one day we'll find some perfect somatic solution to it, misery really does love company.

I'm not sure how to get the depression out of the muscle memory, but i do know we need to do a better job of getting people away from their trauma.

>I'm not sure how to get the depression out of the muscle memory, but i do know we need to do a better job of getting people away from their trauma.

I know how, but it's a deep topic that a single comment on an online forum can barely begin to do justice.

First, I worry of a potential negative side effect of believing in muscle memory, regardless if it is or is not true. The concern is it could lead to the belief of static memory. Memory is impermanent and easy to change; you're not suck with it. So much so, there is a police interrogation technique that does just this to get innocent people thrown in prison. (I'm not kidding.)

How it works is they show a bunch of faces, one with the person they want to be found guilty to the victim. The victim says no to all of them or, "I don't know.." and then later the police come in with a new lineup of photos. All of the photos are different expect the person they want to be found guilty. Usually a second time is enough. The victim will recognize the person shown twice and announce, "It's them. They did it!" If not, they'll keep doing this until that is the eventual consequence. It usually only takes a few times.

One particular interesting study on stripping out memories (or muscle memory if you prefer) is how MDMA therapy works on PTSD. PTSD is a condition similar to anxiety, but different, in which they may have reoccurring nightmares of a horrific event, or if something reminds them of that event irl they may have a traumatic flashback. Clearly their old memories are causing them great distress. So how does this therapy work? Well, MDMA has a side effect of not being able to feel fight or flight on it, and it turns out our memory is read once, write many. This means the second we remember something, it gets erased from our long term memory. Our mind recalls the memory (processes it) and while processing it, it writes a new memory back to long term memory with its contents. On MDMA the fight or flight in the memories can not be processed, so what gets written back is a memory without the trauma attached to it.

Read once, write many has numerous side effects. For example, the very act of recalling a memory over and over again changes it. You can do this experiment on yourself by writing down a story, then recalling it in your memory by saying it out loud like you're telling someone that story. Each time you say it the memory will be modified. Keep going and after around 10 times some details should be obviously wrong. You can then compare this version to the old one to see yourself. It's a solo version of telephone game.

So you can alter your memories, you may be able to even find a way to strip the depression out when being hit over the face (Which you can.), but wait there's more.

How one responds to the present moment is a habit. Every response you will ever give is a habit, even to a new and unexpected situation. It's pretty entertaining to observe the variation of habits people have between cultures. In the US if something unexpected happens like on a hidden game show Americans might be like, "Whaaaaatt??" or might punch someone who startles them, or just in general Americans are very reactive. In the UK when something unexpected happens on a hidden game show they tend to freeze. Sometimes they look around, but they usually pause and wait. It's quite a different response.

Once we realize our responses to the present moment are habits, it's as simple (and as difficult) as changing those habits to new habits that are better suited. This can be as extreme as teaching someone with borderline personality disorder how to not freak out and start yelling when they fall in love with someone, to something more subtle like in your situation not responding with being depressed when life gives you a shitty day.

To change ones habits, they have to be aware of the causality. That is they have to see the present moment before their response an...

I would note that not everyone has visual memories or ability to manifest imagery or sound, in mind. If you find yourself wondering what Bunny is talking about here, they are discussing what are called "aggregates".

Aggregates are formations of thoughts, which typically manifest as visual elements, such as "seeing" things "in mind". Not necessarily "visualizing", but more like "visual historic recall" or "predictive recall of future events".

Unfortunately (perhaps), I don't do this thing with images or sound. But I am aware others do. I do it with thoughts and feelings.

Although imagery is typical, audio aggregates, feeling aggregates, smell aggregates and more are also possible. Thinking mind aggregates are the worst because they spawn other aggregates! :) Like other types of aggregates (gravel for example) there is usually a good mix of emotion, images, sounds and other sense bases manifesting, in mind.

What Buddha taught was that, in order to "see" these things for what they are, one must sit and focus on "noting" the events/aggregates as they pass our awareness filters. This would give a sense of "causality" to the mediator. By noting these aggregates, over time and with attention, they (the aggregates) will eventually liberate themselves from the mind.

Try sitting until you think of something and then ask yourself internally and very clearly and precisely "Who is it that cares about this?" This is a good technique for bringing thinking mind to a halt for a moment, at least in most.

Anything we do that is repetitive in nature, which does not improve us, is a type of "ill being". Following a recommended path of "well being" will allow us to escape the day to day suffering (assault by aggregates) most experience.

Thanks, that's a fascinating insight into the roots of that "forever" feeling.

As for manipulation & programming, I used to be an adjunct professor teaching a topic related to persuasion. I always had a few exercises where I'd show a slide with 10 related words for 10 seconds and ask the students, without writing them down, to remember as many as they could. Then I would go through a few, asking them to close their eyes, and I'd repeat a few words, asking them to raise their hands if they remembered one word, then another. Then I would ask them if they remembered an 11th related word, one that was not on the original list. Cognitive priming with the first 10 words usually produced a 50% response of students saying they remembered the word that wasn't even there. It would always get a good laugh. I hope it also left a lasting impression.

It's not depression, it's the society tumbling down the hill straight to hell, my friend, and your subconscious understanding of that fact.
Thanks for pointing this out. It can be society as a whole, or simply the situation we end up in, individually. Or even both, in which case it would rather be surprising and in a way symtomtic of mental illness to NOT suffer from depression.

One thing interesting about society and its effect on individuals mental state, is it the absolute rating of a society's sanity (however we could rate that) or rather the delta between present and past, along with the perceived prospect of its future delta? You are perhaps touching on this as you are writing going "down" the hill. We might still be at the top of the Mountain, but that's hardly relevant.

Everyone's detectors of this delta seem to have different thresholds of sensitivity... Simply put, some frogs feel small increments of water's temperature and try to warn others, so that they work out the means of escape instead of keeping their pool party going, but for those partying the increments pass as not alarming.

That of course does not mean that less sensitive ones don't feel some uneasiness in the environment. They do, but the cook keeps dressing the heating broth with promises of better future, and lulls the frogs into attributing this uneasiness to depression. Because you see, psychiatry is just another cook's tool among forks, spoons and knives.

Erich Fromm did not use the term 'punitive psychiatry' for no reason.

I find it so strange that when people have such clear indicators of depression, they’re still like “I’m not sure if this is legit depression but...”

I personally got to the point where I was practically fantasizing about dying and still wasn’t sure if that’s real depression. I think we ease into it and forget what being happy was like, such that the depression practically becomes normal. It’s awful

That's because depression is deeply tied into the Kubler-Ross model, and the natural first response in the process of grieving is denial.

It's really amazing how easy this is to understand, if you've been through it.

The notion of denial makes sense in that context. I reflect on depressive times and I really was in denial; that's been clear to me in many moments. I'd speak to people like everything was AWESOME after leaving my home from a morning of intense self-loathing and resentment - the kinds of gut-wrenching thoughts and feelings you'd reserve for someone you hate with all your heart. And I'd kind of believe myself for even minutes at a time. The denial was strong. Denial or pure escapism, I'm not really sure.

What else can you do when you're hurting like that though. I mean, if you don't have the tools to cope, the mental capacity to endure much more, the experience to draw on to recognize the patterns and trajectories and so on. You're practically forced to deny or defer it when you're unequipped to manage it.

This is pretty much exactly how I felt. One day I just went to a walk in clinic and talked to a doctor. From there, everything got better.
> So is that depression?

Do a depression test.[1] And remember that there is nothing wrong with being depressed. It's just like having the common cold, it's a temporary illness that can pass.

Seriously, just do the test and if you need meds take them. It can save you a huge amount of pointless lost effort. There is nothing wrong with being depressed.

[1]: https://psychcentral.com/quizzes/depression-quiz/

That sounds like depression to me. I get this fairly regularly. It’s why I haven’t edited Wikipedia for at least a month, even though I really want to. I just can’t seem to get the drive to get the next article out.

One thing I can say, at least for me, is that exercise has helped.

I startedd to feel something like that too, basically a few weeks from the quarantine. The thing is, I actually thought I would like being closed up, because I'm pretty introverted and don't mind staying at home after work. However, the last couple of years I've started going out more, meeting new people, and trying various activities, which really opened up my view and felt good. But I didn't imagine that cutting these things off would affect me that much. Now I don't even want to work, don't want to play games either, can hardly force myself to watch a movie too. That subtle "background sadness" is a pretty accurate description.
> I don't felt

The correct way to say this is "I didn't feel".

It might be irrelevant, but if I were in your shoes I would have liked to be shown the correct way to say it. Not trying to be pedantic.

Edit: unless you meant "I haven't felt", which has of course a different meaning.

"I don't feel" is grammatically correct and has lower edit distance.
Depression isn't just feeling sad/suicidal all the things (tired/lack of energy/abrupts changes in your social life) you describe can be symptoms. If you can't get yourself out of the rut it might be time to seek professional counseling. I would suggest trying regular exercise and eating right as a great start though. Just cut out fast food entirely, work in half an hour or so of working out every day or every other day. MOVE. Donate time at a homeless shelter or other charity.
I feel a constant sense of inadequacy and that I haven't achieved enough, but it doesn't really get me down or stop me from enjoying things. It's just background noise that sometimes flares up in intensity, like when I feel like I should have known something or I failed at a task. That isn't fun. I work to address this by constant self-improvement and making and achieving reasonably attainable goals. That helps.

I guess I also worry about the health of the relationships I have with important people in my life and what I'm doing to maintain them.

I don't think any of these things qualify as depression though. It just feels like to me that's what life is.

Wait, more than normal?
I voted, but I'm not really sure if I'm the audience you sought for this poll; I've been severely depressed for the majority of my life (it gets more and less worse from time to time, but always what I'd consider depressed), but the coronavirus situation hasn't (as far as I've noticed) affected it all that much.

I wish good luck to all of you out there who might be going through this for the first time in your life, or those for whom it is a regular (yet unwelcome) visitor.

I think you are absolutely part of the audience for this, if not for meaningful data collection then because your experience can lend insight to people here, in the comments.
I found my depression has actually lifted with respect to the pandemic. It has helped me realize there is only so much in a situation I can control, ergo me, that I can always change my situation. And that if I can't, if I am physically restrained or something, then perhaps only my thoughts.
Early into quarantine I noticed I was feeling intense lethargy, apathy (and anxiety) with mood swings. I could not get any work done. My sleep schedule was inconsistent. Some days I wouldn't sleep till 4 am and wake up at 12pm. Other days I would sleep at 10pm and wake up at 5am. I couldn't focus in any meetings, etc.

Thankfully I was a high performer pre covid so I didn't get punished for this. It took me two months into covid to realize something was wrong. I scheduled a meeting with a psychiatrist and requested adderall. I was mostly trying to fix my issues with work.

Obviously he was hesitant to give me it and instead gave me prozac. Prozac was absolutely horrible, it made my apathy worse and heightened the intensity of my mood swings. I stopped after a week.

My next appointment I tried wellbutrin and I have to say this drug is life changing. It's helped me regulate my eating and sleeping patterns, I can focus through entire meeting at work. I can actually get stuff done and Im not completely apathetic towards life.

Note: drugs affect people in different ways. My experience might not be yours but I recommend if you are struggling to try seeking help.

I am much better than I was in the past 2 years this year. I still suffer from depression but I have found ways to deal with it. I am better at redirecting thoughts and containing them. I was able to finish few books in the last 2 weeks and continue with a morning walk routine. Those books really helped me understood why I was failing at modern life.

I cut mainstream social media from my life and reduced screen time. I am more optimistic. I am able to fight against the profitable pessimism.

I am reducing the urge to hoard more material belongings. I learnt that on HN. I was able to let go off fancy toys and electronics that I didn't use anymore but kept because I bought them and grown attached to them. If I don't use it, it's better someone else can. I don't want to keep them on eBay for months.

4x faster than before? I don't care to look more unless I need it.

I re-evaluate my room and budget every month in order to cut down what isn't needed. If I don't do that, I will keep using past as a justification for piling up more til I suffocate between Amazon boxes.

I bought a dustbin for my neighborhood because people were throwing wrappers outside and placed it with a note. So far, some people are using it and that makes me happy. Reciprocity is a powerful tool and I am optimistic someone will think about what I did and do the same in future.

I write more using a paper notebook. goals, priorities, learnings, etc. Software note taking tools suck because they limit your freedom on what you can do. At the end of my todos, I make origami pets from them as a reminder of what I able to accomplish.

Don't be afraid of being messy. Here's my notes from a few days ago: https://ibb.co/yPGb4Z8

They aren't coherent but just enough to remind me.

Would you mind sharing the titles of the books?
Essentialism, influence, Putin: prisoner of power, no longer human, invisible cities, and how to lie with statistics.

I am currently going through psychology of money (although it doesn't seem that interesting yet) but I can take up a few recommendations if you have any :)

I have been using audible as my primary way to read (listen?) and supplement it with kindle. Reading is too much friction at first but once I get past the first chapter, I am eager to pick up the written book.

It might fit those books, there's a great one that is also highly entertaining called "Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion".
I'm a little more irritable than normal. Quarantine has been great for me in almost every way but being cooped up at home while working on my masters is not exactly the best environment on a 750 square feet apartment with family.
Vegan diet, intermittent fasting (18/6), exercise, meditation cured my depression.
I draw my strength from the yellow sun. Over the last two weeks my home has tilted ever farther from it. I feel the familiar ebbing of the light.

I’ve gotten better at mitigating it over the years. Vitamin D supplementation, light box therapy every morning, and near daily exercise is key. Getting the routine dialed in before mid-November is crucial.

One suggestion: lobby your representatives to put a stop to this insane time-changing business, which is basically engineered to engender the symptoms people are reporting in this thread.
The time change has no effect on total daylight hours. Nothing is stopping anyone from continuing to get up at the same real time if they want to have the same amount of daylight.
I used to really enjoy taking a long walk after work to get some sunlight in. Now by the time we're allowed to stop sitting at our desks the sun has already set.
I've been thinking about this the past few days. I am not being sarcastic here - I believe we need an immediate executive order to roll back the daylight savings time. It is two miniature public health crises, for both vitamin D absorption to mitigate covid as well as mental health. It is going to kill people.
Counter anecdata: This year has been an insufferable slog, but in the last month or so, I've felt better than I have at any other time this year. It started a week or two before I quit Twitter, which I think rules out quitting social mass media as a factor?

It's been a long, hard year, and for once I'm doing better in it, even if the outside world seems to be going to hell. It seems the inverse of what should be going on as we head into winter, but I'll take it.

I don't think it rules out the quitting Twitter as a factor as such? A few weeks of response lag as conditioning/expectations gradually recognize the new normal seems likely enough to me.
Copying my comment from the straw poll post:

I had severe depression for a few years that became debilitating at the start of 2020 causing me to be unable to socialize or work or do anything but sleep. I was a terrible friend, parent, spouse, and employee. I tried multiple anti-depressants and therapists, but nothing helped. This august I found a psychiatrist that also did ketamine treatment and it was a miracle. Literally the day after my first treatment I wasn’t depressed and have had zero depressed feelings since. It was surreal. Depression had define my life for so long. I wish the treatment was more accessible, but unfortunately it is very expensive and not covered by insurance. If anyone is struggling and would like to learn more, please reach out.

I would like to add to this another less traditional treatment for depression: The medication modafinil. Yes, used for sleep disorders or shift workers to stay awake, but it is really not at all a traditional -etamine stimulant, and it can be extremely effective as an adjunctive treatment for depression, especially used in combination with another medication. Even when medications mostly work, they don't always stop all symptoms. Modafinil is what has kept me functional through those times. Hard to get insurance to cover, but if you use GoodRx you can get generics at a reasonable price.
I wouldn’t say I feel depressed, but there’s an overarching feeling of claustrophobic suffocation that the confluence of current events is causing. It’s a feeling of foreboding. Some subconscious part of my brain is predicting a future that none of us wants to see. So depression? No. Fear? Definitely.
That's anxiety.

Anxiety is expecting a negative future / negative outcome.

An anxiety disorder is incorrectly assuming a negative future, often frequently and often.

If you're not regularly concerned about the future, then it's okay, it will go away. Though, maybe a therapist can help teach you ways to relax in the meantime? It's going to be two months before anything scary can happen, so that's a long time to be anxious. I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

two weeks?.. you mean 8 months?..