Ask HN: What Lived Up to the Hype?

424 points by karamazov ↗ HN
Cyberpunk’s reviews paint it as a tire fire. I think it’s a fun game, but it doesn’t live up to the expectation - it’s not the next Witcher 3.

There are many examples of overhyped releases: Duke Nukem Forever, the Matrix sequels, etc. What got hyped and actually delivered?

1,119 comments

[ 861 ms ] story [ 1235 ms ] thread
Haskell typeclasses. They really are interfaces that don’t leak.

Solid state disks. Huge speed boost.

Interesting, i've haven't seen hype for Haskell type classes, is there anywhere I can see the hype for this on the internet?
Uh, not typeclasses specifically, but Haskell gets a bit of hype. Typeclasses deliver so much, I think they alone make the pain of learning worth it.
To elaborate a bit, I came from a perl, java background. I'm aware of clos protocols, I've fiddled with squeak and the "here's a test case, give me all the functions that pass the test". Different languages have different strengths.

But golly, Haskell has (had) a lot of hype. Monads, lazy evaluation, random lens stuff is fine and all, but type classes are unreal. you get to specify up front what capabilities you want to buy into.

I guess, just try implementing Num of Float as the first derivative. It's pretty magical how much power the compiler provides. And you _know_ it's doing what you think it's doing.

Haskell opens up a bunch of rabbit holes. but really getting a good grasp on interfaces that don't leak is, well from my background, really really mind expanding. There's a large difference between being real smart and having the compiler enforce assumptions. I dunno. I think the Haskell hype lives up to the claims from type classes alone.

F# feature request forum :)
I came here to says SSD. There's never been as big a performance upgrade you could make.
I remember the first time I used a computer with an SSD. Many of the performance issues I naively blamed on the CPU or lack of memory were really the HDD. I just never had anything better to compare it to.
This made me think back to HDD days. As much as they sucked I kind of miss the HDD grunt - I could hear when stuff was using my disk, it was kind of reassuring that the PC was working. Sort of like that floppy drive boot check sound. That HDD seek rumble and CD spin when you were installing games. Objectively these things are a negative but I kind of miss it. This also made me realize where car fans complaining about the electric car feel are coming from :)
I recently moved from a M.2 750MB/s SSD to an M.2 NVME one that does about 3,750MB/s.

That was an amazing boost that I'm so very glad to have purchased. Ironically enough, it was to have enough space to install Cyberpunk 2077 :)

Instead of making my own top level comment I'll just add onto this one: functional programming in general and Elm in particular. A lot of languages and frameworks promise to make programming fun, Elm is the only one that's held up for more than a few weeks. Months later I'm still doing substantial side projects in it and get a rush just from opening up a new .elm file and starting a new set of types and pure functions.

Funny you should mention type classes-- that's one of the biggest things that Elm, the little brother to Haskell in many ways, doesn't support (and doesn't intend to, for reasons of limiting the footguns available to devs and also keeping to the high standard it sets for itself for error messages IIRC...)

I would agree with "Haskell", and typeclasses are probably are the most important feature, if such a thing could exist. However, was there a lot of hype for typeclasses when they came out in the 90s? It seems like outside the pure functional programming domain, typeclasses have not yet reached their zenith!
> Solid state disks. Huge speed boost.

You should have seen the leap from tapes to magnetic disks :)

LeBron James was touted as the Next Great Hope for basketball, was on the cover of Sports Illustrated at age 17, and his high school games were televised on ESPN.

Since then he's won 4 NBA championships, opened a school in his hometown, and become arguably the greatest basketball player of all time.

Looking forward to the next two seasons to see if he catches MJ. The Lakers have a scary team again this season.
> and become arguably the greatest basketball player of all time.

LeBron is definitely the best of his era but he's not touching Jordan in terms of greatest player of all time, even if he does pull off two more championships. During the 90s, Jordan was as close to a demi-god in the sports world as you could get.

You can't compare the two. Look at each as individuals. They have each changed the game of basketball in their own way. There will never be a single "GOAT". Every generation builds on what the generation prior created. Dr. J -> MJ -> Lebron. All dominate players in their own era that made everyone around them, and after, better players.
Could You please elaborate on how LBJ changed the game? I think, currently Curry did with his shooting skills, and somewhat Harden too - tho I hate the step-back threes due to it should be called travelling at least one out of three times. LBJ: great skill-set, great athlete but changing the game?
James Harden doesn’t travel, he simply knows the rule book better than non-experts. Specifically, he knows the gather step better than most anyone: https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2020/2/23/21149538/james-harden...
It’s still makes for boring basketball with all the stops and starts.
I think many, like myself, will concede this point. Harden is a genius at "hacking" basketball. I don't really complain that what Harden does is traveling as much as the traveling rule needs updating so that it is.
If you go to YouTube and type in “FIBA gather step”, you’ll see a video released by the rules body showing legal 0 steps, the rule is being used exactly as intended, to the point where they want people to know it’s explicitly legal.

What you don’t notice is that the gather step is used for many more movements other than a euro step, but the euro step also has a change of direction and change of acceleration that combine to make the movement look illegal to someone who doesn’t understand the rules.

Great link. Solidly refutes a common misconception by teaching a subtle but crucial nuance.
changed the game by jumping teams to play with other superstars so that he could win. Definitely started the big three era until the warriors dynasty ended. Back to big twos and it's so much more interesting when 6-8 teams can win.
Prime Jordan > Prime LeBron, that's how I put it.
(comment deleted)
> demi-god

I agree that Jordan was an amazing player, and I think he narrowly tops Lebron as the best of all time, but I also think Jordan benefited from a very precise moment in NBA history: the league's media reach became truly global and the established media was still pretty much the only source of information about NBA players. No TMZ, no random phone videos from clubs, no social media. It was the perfect setup to convince a huge number of people that this dude was a demi-god. If Jordan played today, I think he'd face way more scrutiny of the gambler/"apolitical"/bully parts of his personality, and while he'd probably win plenty of MVPs, I don't think he'd achieve the same iconic status.

On the flip side Lebron benefits from dramatic rule changes in how physical the NBA isn't today. Both in his stats and longevity.

All you have to do is go on YouTube and watch the fights from the 1980s. And of course everyone is familiar with how Jordan was brutalized in the 1987-1993 era, playing teams like the Knicks and Pistons. Today's NBA is soft, fragile, weak, and little more than a three point shooting exercise. It's mediocre basketball. Do a comparison on steal figures now vs then; during his prime it was normal for Jordan to have 2.8 to 3.2 steals per game in a season, today the NBA leader will be closer to 2 to 2.2 per game.

Now you can barely sneeze on the offensive player with the ball or it's a foul. Combined with 3-point chucking and zero defense, it fully explains why scores are so comically high now versus the 1990s and so many players average over 20-25 points per game. It's the equivalent to the NFL becoming soft, watering down passing defense, so they can run up scores and turn the league into a 90% passing game so they can pump up ratings for the $$$ (same fraud MLB pulled jacking up homerun figures).

I've had this argument before, and this is very off-topic, but that seems to be the nature of sports arguments :).

I agree that the NBA was far more physical in Jordan's era and that LeBron has never had to go through that. But the style of play cuts both ways! The biggest difference, I think, is that zone defense was illegal for (almost) Jordan's whole career. This allowed Jordan to showcase his isolation scoring, and I think Jordan was clearly the best isolation scorer ever.

This argument is more or less convincing depending on how you factor in the greater physicality (e.g. handchecking). My hypothesis is that LeBron would have been extremely hard to guard alone even with the relaxed rules. IIRC, Miami Lebron weighed 260+ and was still faster than most wings; Jordan topped out around 220 in the 2nd 3-peat. The available evidence suggests that LeBron is pretty hard to hurt -- unless you think all NBA players have somehow become more injury-prone, his almost spotless injury record relative to his peers is remarkable.

We seem to have different aesthetic preferences for basketball. I think late 90s basketball is ugly as hell! But I'll argue that the cross-era comparisons are not that easy, and both players are hard to extricate from the style of their eras anyway.

I think another factor is that LeBron has a history of flopping and complaining about non-calls. People imagine that LeBron in the 90s and see him getting crushed. But of course perhaps he flops because it is sadly part of that game today and had he joined in the late 80s he probably would have played differently.

It is really hard to speculate on these things.

He exceeds Jordan in nearly all individual metrics: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/what-makes-lebron-james... Would I bet on Jordan or Lebron in 7 game playoff series (both players having the same teams)? Jordan. But overall I would draft Lebron as a franchise player.
You don't want to draft Lebron, he has zero loyalty to a team. You wouldn't be able to keep him after your first rebuild phase, which would be inevitable at some point. Maybe you'd get four or five years out of a freshly drafted Lebron before he bolted to one of the elite media markets that was better positioned to get him rings.
It's a lot easier to have loyalty to Chicago than Cleveland. MJ and Kobe would have done the same if they were drafted to a small market team (in fact Kobe made sure he wasn't drafted to a small market).

Lebron put in a long shift and went back to give them a title.

you wanna have a goat debate on hn
As a frequenter of various nba forums and subreddits, I cannot believe you have invaded my safe space with this argument ;)
The Greatest Of All Time isn't Jordan; it's Bill Russell. 11 championships - nearly twice what Jordan has.
I knew someone would know the real answer!
I'm not a basketball fan but if LeBron only turns out to be the 2nd or 3rd greatest I'd assert he still lived up to the hype.
I agree, but I do think its more nuanced. Both LeBron & Tiger Woods are examples of sportsman living up to the early hype but ultimately falling short of eclipsing some records people thought they could.

Lebron likely won't win as many rings as Jordan and Tiger won't win as many majors as Jack.

I scrolled down the thread wondering if someone would mention him and if nobody did I was going to.

It's insane how much hype he had at a young age and how he's delivered again and again. The only players with similar [amount delivered] * [hype] values are peyton manning and tim duncan, but lebron's is way bigger.

Also worth mentioning in his accolades: brought a championship to his hometown, has never had any PR disasters (except for "the decision"), has many charities (scholarships, gives out bikes, etc), and elevated his friends and family to make them successful as well. He's basically done everything right.

And I say this as a long time celtics fan and lebron hater.

(comment deleted)
Not even close to Bill Russell.
I'm pretty sure LeBron could beat Bill Russell, esp. given how old Russell is now.
The 2020 elections.
Good entertainment value for the whole world. During pandemic as someone who doesn't live in the US,I actually followed the US election on a daily basis for the first time.
(comment deleted)
I was checking the live results page more times an hour than is reasonable for someone who isn't American and doesn't live in the US.
Giuliani farting in court made it all worth it.
I agree. It was a roller coaster. If someone had told me halfway through 2019 that not only would a Biden/Harris ticket win, but also that I would be overjoyed about it, I would have responded that the first was unlikely and as to the second, not a chance. Yet here we are.
Now that the elections are over: does anyone think they were underwhelming?

2016 had the real threat of both never-Trumpers and Bernie-or-busters, and a lot of weird drama with pizzagate, grab them by the pussy, and her emails. 2020 had nothing anywhere near that and had a comfy and predictable ending.

I agree. I live in GA, and it was exciting to see my vote could make a difference.
You could make a case for The Mandalorian, although that didn't get as much hype due to the internets... dislike ...of the sequel trilogy.

Another one I can think of is Breath of The Wild, and probably Mario Odyssey. I've also heard good things about the FF7 remake, but haven't played it.

The Mandalorian has restored the faith in the future of the franchise in millions of fans. Most of us thought Star Wars was over considering how mediocre the last six movies have been but along comes this well-written, fun adventure that manages to tie together the previous movies, animated series and books. Imagine a new trilogy made by Filoni and Favreau - they would absolutely kill it.
is it really well written?

“can you help me?”

“only if you complete this task that makes you look like a bad ass”

repeated 8 times

Yeah, I have to believe this intentionally leaning in to the genre, but it's definitely just about every episode plot line (along with the rescue that comes just at the right moment).
The story is garbage, nothing happens. It's video game questing set in a cool universe. It's hard to feel for any of the characters. It's a bummer because the nailed vibe and visuals and all they'd really need to do is attach a more compelling story to it.
This is the take that Chapo Traphouse made on a recent episode. Though I agree that it is quest-y in its approach to each episode/sub plot and personally don't mind it, what makes it any different from the "hero story" structure?

Sure there's a formula, but few stories, if any at all, are original in their foundations. Their success seems to be more in the execution of such story/production and immersion of audiences.

Or is it more of an issue of the predictability in knowing what the "quest" objectives and items are, and from that extrapolating the outcome? Imo, both cases are understandable, as many times the main story quests can feel on rails/going through the motions, but again those quests seem to be more about the audience's immersion (including player playthrough/execution in games) in the modeled experience.

Tldr: I totally understand your point, and can agree to an extent. Though I believe one can find enjoyment in well curated/executed experiences/productions/writing/immersion, rather than seeking "originality" in story telling, as on rails/predictable as they can be

I agree in that I wouldn't say it meets the standards of great writing. However, unlike the Sequel trilogy, it:

1) Thematically feels like Star Wars and ties into the established world, and

2) Meets the minimal standard for good writing/storytelling.

"I'll allow it."

In the context of an action sci-fi western blend, that’s good writing to me, I enjoyed watching it.

Even though the formula is simple, the events didn’t feel predictable to me.

And I could easily imagine more complex plot that would be less satisfying to watch.

> Imagine a new trilogy made by Filoni and Favreau - they would absolutely kill it.

This is all I've been thinking throughout the series. The writing is damn good, the character development is on point, it's not forceful (no pun intended) or disingenuous in trending social themes, cinematography is amazing, great casting, it's immersive in keeping to canon. It's something you can point to and say, "That's Star Wars".

One could only wish those two get a shot at making the full lengths.

Disney through Fox now owns Firefly. I'd love to see Favreau reboot firefly. I think he could actually pull that off, or at least Something in that 'verse. Especially if he can get Whedon's blessing and some of the original cast members.
I was watching The Mandalorian last night and thinking about what it would have been like to have a new Star Wars movie on broadcast TV each week as a kid back in the 80s.

I think most of my actual exposure was through toys and advertising. The movies were only on TV every couple of years. I remember listening to Star Wars on the radio

Rogue 1 was also pretty good. It seems like the Star Wars jinx is that nobody can pull off extensions of the Skywalker story without getting hokey and weird. But the stories that explore other parts of the universe tend to be at least interesting and sometimes excellent.
Rogue 1 is my favorite star wars film overall.

Incredibly well executed and fantastic characters.

Disney dropped the ball on every single thing other than R1 and Mandalorian.

Solo was not bad either, and honestly Revenge of the Sith is a great story too.
RoTS is my second favourite after rogue one. I am just of the age where the prequels were my jam when I was a kid and I love them still to this day.

1. Rogue One 2. Revenge of The Sith 3. Empire Strikes Back

Rogue 1 is great, how many mainstream movies kill off everyone at the end of the movie - brilliant!
> I've also heard good things about the FF7 remake, but haven't played it.

Playing it at the moment, and I'm nearly done with it. I think it's a great game. Its' beautiful, and has a nice mix of carrying forward old storylines and settings and mixing in new things. It also made a lot of characters more authentic to me than the original one - e.g. the turks felt more like real bad guys. Aerith character is great too.

What I'm not too sure about is whether it was the right decision to stretch the Midgar part of the story that much (I'm already at 45 hours in chapter 17). The original FF7 had a lot more places to offer, and climbing up a buildling or moving through sewers or tunnels for 2 hours isn't that exciting compared to that.

Half Life Alyx did, and in my opinion exceeded it.
Was there hype for this? As far as I remember this only turned out to be impressive after reviews started rolling in.

(not contesting thr experience itself, I just don't remember the pre-release hype)

It came out of nowhere and nobody ever expected Valve to come back to the Half-Life series.
It is technically a sequel to Half Life 2 so I'd say there was some hype to it.
There absolutely was hype for HLVR in the community, and to be clear any successor to Half Life 2 Episode 2.

I was a VR buff and a Half Life fan but I was blown away by how good it was and it’s ending.

Ryzen 5xxx assuming you could buy one
I'd say Avengers: Endgame lived up to the decade of hype, which is no small feat.

LotR sequels probably had a lot of hype prior to release.

The latest God of War had a great release afaik.

To be honest, it's hard to remember which things were really hyped up before release and met expectations. I keep thinking of stuff I heard was good after it was release, and things which were hyped and failed, or havr not yet fully delivered on the hype. I can't think of any tech which fits the bill. Maybe raytracing? Most tech tends to be overhyped.

> I'd say Avengers: Endgame

It really didn't. "Let's take a compelling villain and a nice-ish philosophical dilemma, create a world that's reeling in the aftermath of said villain's actions... and just quantum time travel kill the villain with no effort and literally exactly zero consequences for anyone involved." Oh. Right. Boohoo exactly one single character died with exactly zero consequences for anyone because his contract with the studio ran out.

well, if you've followed mainstream (read: predictable) cinema for the last few years, that's exactly what was to be expected, wasn't it? Especially since it was foreshadowed in the first movie that some kind of time travel vehicle could be used in the second movie...
Vision, Black Widow, and Iron Man. That's a pretty major trio of deaths. Plus half the population still has the trauma of five years post-snap, and the other half finds themselves suddenly in a different world.
Vision and Black Widow are entirely inconsequential.

None of the perceived trauma exists, except in the minds of avid fans.

Endgame stuck the landing, which was extremely hard to do, but wasn’t the best movie of the bunch. That goes to Infinity War which was near perfect.
My point was not that it was a good movie, but it matched the expected hype. Even though it delivered more fan service than a great story/villain. I count that as a win in terms of "did it live up to the hype" department. It's fine if it wasn't perfect :).

Many (not all) marvel movies lived up to the hype, but I think the challenge was hardest for endgame.

Please post this to Reddit, it's not what HN is for. Thank you.
I believe it is, cause on HN we'll see different kind of responses compared to reddit.
Looks like Reddit to me, except for the Haskell typeclasses.
Maybe at Christmas it doesn't matter so much?
Factorio, M1 chip, iPhone. And the post is just one hour old, give it time
iPhone is probably the best one. When it was annouced and I saw Steve give a demo it was clear to me that this was a huge leap forward for mobile phones, but I don’t know if anyone outside Apple could have predicted just how huge.
You do not get to decide what HN is for. Glad to see your comment downvoted and flagged.
I know what you're saying, but the question is interesting, perhaps poorly phrased, but interesting. And complaining about HN not being the right forum where to question seems something that I could read on reddit, not on here.
Not a huge amount of hype, but heard really good things about the Back to the Future musical. Thanks Covid.
Wow, a downvote? Really?
(comment deleted)
- A lot of people watch it with no background knowledge and subsequently don’t quite understand the “best film ever” label, but Citizen Kane is indeed a fantastic film. Just read about Orson Welles first.

- Most religious books that have stood the test of time have lived up to the hype. The Bible (especially certain books like Ecclesiastes or Proverbs), The Quran, The Upanishads, to name a few. Again, don’t just go in blind, or you’ll walk away thinking none of it makes any sense.

- Lifting weights is indeed worth the hype, and its benefits are more diffuse than just “being able to lift heavy things.”

- In terms of old books that are made into modern sci-fi films, I’ve found Philip K. Dick to be absolutely worth the hype. Don’t think I’ve read a bad story by him.

>A lot of people watch it with no background knowledge and subsequently don’t quite understand the “best film ever” label, but Citizen Kane is indeed a fantastic film. Just read about Orson Welles first.

Interesting. About 10 years ago I was tired of modern cinema and completely stopped watching new films. After some pause I decided to start watching classic cinema from 1930 onward in more or less chronological order (in the last year i've stopped at ~1800 movies, up to 1995).

In general, the quality of 1932-1942 american cinema (and, to a lesser degree, 1945-1950) far exceeded my expectations. And, while Citizen Kane is a very good film and deserves to be seen (it was actually one of the few "critically acclaimed" classic films that I've actually enjoyed), but when seen in context of what was filmed at the time, Citizen Kane doesn't really stand out among its contemporaries that much. A lot of technical details (but not all) that are praised by modern critics were more or less a common thing back at the time. I'd argue that Kane wasn't even the best film of the 1941 year (Sullivan's Travel was better and H.M. Pulham, Esq its equal) and definitely not the best film of the 1930-1950 "golden age" that ended at a very high point with Sunset Blvd. before plunging into the abyss in 1950s.

That's all of course only my opinion.

On a related note, if you enjoyed Citizen Kane, I'd highly recommend to see a soviet film from 1962 Nine Days in One Year. One of the most visually stunning b/w films in my experience. Thematically different, but stylistically very similar.

Sure, I’m not sure I’d actually call it the Best Film Ever, but it is a great movie. Part of its importance, compared to some of the other movies you’ve mentioned, is the story of how it got made / that it got made at all. Welles had zero film experience, yet was fully funded, and the movie itself was a direct attack on one of the single most powerful men of the era. Welles himself was a larger-than-life character and that’s probably half the reason we are still talking about Kane. Art isn’t created in a vacuum, after all.

I’m not sure what a modern equivalent would look like, but imagine a $200 million studio film that eloquently attacks the heads of CNN, The NY Times, and another half-dozen top media firms. That sort of thing would never get made today.

Thanks for the other suggestion though, I’ll look into it for sure!

> I’m not sure I’d actually call it the Best Film Ever

Most critics would, though. And I've never heard that its importance is in any way tied to its production. Welles took film from "filmed stage plays" and literally opened up the genre. He ripped up floorboards to get the right perspective. He innovated direction right and left.

The only aspect of the film being about Hearst was that its debut was canned, distribution was shot, and he would never (really) be allowed to make another film again.

I've started doing the same thing and recommend Witness for the Prosecution highly. Rear Window, Paths of Glory, and North by Northwest are others that have held up to modern eyes, IMHO.
I go back to watching North by Northwest every few months. The writing, the sets, the cinematography, the music and the acting all sublime. One of my favorite random facts is that Albert R Broccoli initially wanted to get Cary Grant for the first Bond film, but the producers ended up deciding to get a younger actor.
After watching all those movies, please would you share some of your favourites, especially lesser known titles.
I can give you my list as I've also been watching lots of "old" movies. Though "old" can mean almost anything depending on who you ask. Note: I'm picky so while I love movies if I check my ratings (I take notes because I forget what I watched), it turns out I only like about one out of 10 movies. Or maybe to put it in a slightly better light, only 1 of 10 or so is worth recommending. Some might be okay but not okay enough to tell someone "you should seek out this movie"

Anyway, here's some from my list from the last year (the list of ones I didn't like is MUCH longer and includes many that are highly rated on IMDB)

"Now, Voyager" (1942)

"Boom Town" (1940)

"The Best Years of Our Lives" (1947)

"The Little Princess" (1939)

"Destry Rides Again" (1939)

"Baby Face" (1933)

"Adam's Rib" (1949)

"In a Lonely Place" (1950)

"It Happened One Night" (1934)

"The Woman of the Year" (1942)

"The Awful Truth" (1937)

"Broken Arrow" (1950)

"The Lady Eve" (1941)

"His Girl Friday" (1940)

"12 O'Clock High" (1949)

"You Can't Take It With You" (1938)

"The Far County" (1954)

"Random Harvest" (1942)

"The Bad and the Beautiful" (1952)

"The Philadelphia Story" (1940)

"Cry Danger" (1951)

"This Gun For Hire" (1942)

"Casablanca" (1942). I didn't get it at 23 where as I shook from crying at 50. Basically I needed to truly feel Rick's loss and what he was going through (Bogart's character). At 23 I didn't. At 50 I did. I suppose you could have similar experiences to Rick at a younger age or you could never have them and then not have it do anything for you.

I don't think any of them are "lesser known". Basically I just look up IMDB. If it's rated > 7 and sounds mildly interesting I'll take a look. Tons of them don't work for me. Those above did. As recent examples of ones that didn't "The Strange Love of Martha Ivers" (1946), "Dark Passage" (1947), "Waterloo Bridge" (1940), "The Bishop's Wife" (1947), "Spellbound" (1945), "Fort Apache" (1948). Those are just from the last 2 weeks (^^;)

Ok, I'll try, but keep in mind, that there were a lot of well known films that I didn't lile (for example, I didn't like any film with Katharine Hepburn in it; although i've tried it three times, I've never finished Casablanca).

Anyway, If you are interested in classic movies I think the best way to start is with Frank Capra (1932 - American Madness, 1933 - Lady for a Day, 1934 - It Happened One Night, 1936 - Mr. Deeds Goes to Town, 1938 - You Can't Take It with You, 1939 - Mr. Smith Goes to Washington), Preston Sturges (1940 - The Great McGinty, 1940 - Christmas in July, 1941 - Sullivan's Travels), some of Myrna Loy & William Powell films (1934 - Thin Man, 1936 - After the Thin Man, 1936 - Libeled Lady) and possibly Charlie Chaplin later films (1931 - City Lights, 1952 - Limelight). Continue to

Dramas: 1957 - Le notti di Cabiria - Federico Fellini; 1957 - Il Grido - Michelangelo Antonioni; 1957 - Paths of Glory - Stanley Kubrick; 1952 - Ikiru - Akira Kurosawa; 1954 - A Big Family - Iosif Kheifits; 1951 - The Browning Version - Anthony Asquith; 1959 - Les quatre cents coups - Francois Truffaut; 1959 - Room At The Top - Jack Clayton; 1962 - The Loneliness of the Long Distance Runner - Tony Richardson; 1962 - Nine Days in a Year - Mikhail Romm; 1960 - The Lady with the Dog - Iosif Kheifits; 1962 - Il Sorpasso - Dino Risi; 1961 - La Ragazza con la valigia - Valerio Zurlini; 1948 - Ladri di biciclette - Vittorio De Sica; 1945 - Les Dames du Bois de Boulogne - Robert Bresson; 1936 - Dodsworth - William Wyler; 1937 - La Grande Illusion - Jean Renoir; 1940 - City for Conquest - Anatole Litvak; 1941 - Citizen Kane - Orson Welles; 1941 - H.M. Pulham, Esq - King Vidor; 1946 - The Best Years of Our Lives - William Wyler; 1942 - Now, Voyager - Irving Rapper; 1942 - Random Harvest - Mervyn LeRoy; 1960 - The Apartment - Billy Wilder; 1950 - Sunset Blvd. - Billy Wilder; 1962 - Lonely Are the Brave - David Miller; 1964 - The Americanization of Emily; 1965 - The Hill - Sidney Lumet; 1966 - A Man for All Seasons - Fred Zinnemann; 1966 - Nayak - Satyajit Ray; 1968 - The Heart Is a Lonely Hunter - Robert Ellis Miller; 1971 - The Hospital - Arthur Hiller; 1975 - Barry Lyndon - Stanley Kubrick; 1975 - One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest - Milos Forman; 1977 - Saturday Night Fever - John Badham; 1979 - ...And Justice for All - Norman Jewison.

Comedies: 1940 - The Shop Around The Corner - Ernst Lubitsch; 1939 - Destry Rides Again - George Marshall; 1950 - Father of the Bride - Vincente Minnelli; 1940 - Pride and Prejudice - Robert Z. Leonard; 1939 - Day-Time Wife - Gregory Ratoff; 1934 - Little Miss Marker - Alexander Hall; 1935 - The Gilded Lily - Wesley Ruggles; 1935 - If You Could Only Cook - William A. Seiter; 1935 - Ruggles of Red Gap - Leo McCarey; 1936 - My Man Godfrey - Gregory La Cava; 1937 - Easy Living - Mitchel Liesen; 1937 - Topper - Norman Z. McLeod; 1938 - Merrily We Live - Norman Z. McLeod; 1940 - My Favorite Wife - Garson Kanin; 1941 - Ball of Fire - Howard Hawks; 1941 - It Started with Eve - Henry Koster; 1941 - Charley's Aunt - Archie Mayo; 1942 - Larceny, Inc. - Lloyd Bacon; 1942 - The Big Street - Irving Reis; 1942 - The Major and the Minor - Billy Wilder; 1943 - The More the Merrier - George Stevens; 1948 - Sitting Pretty - Walter Lang; 1947 - Miracle on 34th Street - George Seaton; 1947 - Mr. Blandings Builds His Dream House - H.C. Potter; 1949 - Little Women - Mervyn LeRoy; 1955 - Marty - Delbert Mann; 1956 - Spring on Zarechnaya Street - Marlen Khutsiev; 1957 - Porte Des Lilas - Rene Clair; 1958 - Mon Oncle - Jascques Tati; 1959 - Some Like It Hot - Billy Wilder; 1960 - Make Mine Mink - Robert Asher; 1963 - Sunday in New York - Peter Tewksbury; 1963 - Il Giovedi - Dino Risi; 1963 - Three Plus Two - Genrikh Oganisyan; 1964 - Walking the Streets of Moscow - Georgiy Daneliya; 1964 - A Hard Day's Night - Richard Lester; 1968 - The Odd Couple - Gene Saks; 1977 - The Goodbye Girl - Herbert Ross; 1978 - Same Time Next Year - Robert Mulligan

Crime/Action: 1969 ...

Thanks for that! I count only about seventeen of those that I've seen, despite having seen old movies in the hundreds.

Funnily enough, my favourite old Hollywood genres are musicals and westerns.

I grew up only really being exposed to post 1960 movie musicals which I never really liked. About seven years ago I thought, "I've never really watched any old movie musicals", and just started watching them. It was a revelation to discover the (to me) amazing stuff from the 30s, 40s and 50s. My ideal movie musical was made in the 1930s, stars Fred Astaire, and has songs by the Gershwins, Cole Porter or Irving Berlin.

Some highlights for me would be:

42nd Street (1933) Not the first `backstage musical' but sets the template. One of the things I love about old movie musicals is that people don't randomly start singing and dancing: they sing and/or dance because they are singers or songwriters or dancers or choreographers creating or rehearsing or performing.

Gold Diggers of 1933 (1933) More Busby Berkeley.

Footlight Parade (1933) More Busby Berkeley. James Cagney stars.

On the Avenue (1937)

Shall we Dance (1937)

Lady be Good (1941)

You Were Never Lovelier (1942)

The Gang's All Here (1943)

Anchors Aweigh (1945)

The Pirate (1948) Don't listen to the naysayers, this film to me is pretty much perfect.

An American in Paris (1951) Contains the amazing sequence in which Oscar Levant is portrayed conducting, playing every instrument, and being the audience of Gershwin's Concerto in F for Piano and Orchestra (which I think is much better than the more famous Rhapsody in Blue).

The Band Wagon (1953)

Daddy Long Legs (1955)

High Society (1956)

Funny Face (1957)

Gypsy (1962)

And then a couple of years ago, I asked myself: which film genres have I never really watched? Westerns (and Horror, still haven't gone there) being my answer. Turns out I really love westerns.

Some favourites:

Destry Rides Again (1939)

Stagecoach (1939)

Fort Apache (1948) To me, this is the best of John Ford's `cavalry trilogy'

Red River (1948)

Winchester '73 (1950) My favourite of the Anthony Mann / James Stewart westerns.

Vera Cruz (1954) Action movies weren't invented in the 1980s.

The Man from Laramie (1955)

Seven Men from Now (1956) The best of the Budd Boetticher / Randolph Scott westerns.

Man of the West (1958)

The Horse Soldiers (1959)

Last Train from Gun Hill (1959)

Two Rode Together (1961)

The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)

El Dorado (1966) Rio Bravo gets all the love, but this is the more satisfying result for me.

Well, to the best of my knowledge, these are nice additions to my list of recommendations :-)

1. I agree, that final scene in An American in Paris is just mindblowing (for the lack of a better word). I've seen it at least 20 times and it still amazes me. Vincente Minnelli was a one of a kind genius. Another highlight for me was Astair's Puttin' on the Ritz from Blue Skies. And as for Gershwin - I myself prefer his Piano concerto.

2. As far as I know, musicals were the most popular genre in 1930s-40s and a lot of talent was put in their creation (and it shows). That said, I just don't like the genre for two reasons:

- Astair/Rogers-style, where actors suddenly transition from dialog to dancing, just seem too weird and far fetched to me;

- Busby Berkeley-style extravaganzas are, indeed, better and, as a rule, visually stunning. But for me they fail as films simply because there is usually not enough plot/dialogues (that is, the whole plot is just a vehicle to show dancing sequences). These type of films are better enjoyed as short clips on youtube :-) Uncharacteristically, I've enjoyed much later Saturday Night Fever and Dirty Dancing, both made in this style. Although I think these two films could have been even better if their creators were more ambitious. There were a lot of unused potential in them.

3. I have no objections to the westerns as a genre. I've included both Destry Rides Again and Stagecoach. It's just that I've seen ~10 westerns from 50s and 60s, didn't like any of them and decided to skip the genre altogether. I might return to them some time in the future.

> In general, the quality of 1932-1942 american cinema (and, to a lesser degree, 1945-1950) far exceeded my expectations.

Survivorship bias? I'm sure there was as much schlock produced back then as there is now, it's just we elevated the best and have forgotten the rest.

Revisiting the bad stuff is the entire premise of MST3K:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mystery_Science_Theater_3000

People often claim survivorship bias for such things, and it may sometimes be true, but I think it often misses the point. It may be true that overall, the landscape of an art form wasn't much different than today. However, it is obviously plausible that the "highest highs" would be higher in some period X than some period Y - it would be actually much more surprising if an art form were of uniform quality across many decades.

I don't have enough cinema culture to comment on cinema specifically, but I believe this is pretty obvious in music. Comparing things like Beethoven's 5th and 9th symphonies to any modern music (especially if comparing only the main themes, given today's preference for very short form music), it's obvious that there is nothing similar, and even modern audiences generally recognize the superiority of the older one.

As a more focused comparison, it's also obvious and largely uncontroversial that the amount of good rock music being produced has plummeted since at least the 1970s-1980s. There are still a few good bands (Rammstein has been an unexpected highlight for me), but compared to a period when you had Pink Floyd, Led Zeppelin, David Bowie, Black Sabbath, Queen, Deep Purple, Metallica, The Rolling Stones and a good many others, it's obvious that something has gone down in the highest highs of music.

Well, I myself is an avid concert goer (before Covid at least) and I probably know more about classical music than I do about classical cinema :-) Although I mostly prefer music written c. 1900-1950 rather than Beethoven or his contemporaries (what a lot of people don't realise is that there were a lot of changes in classical orchestral music over time; the difference between, say, Mozart and William Walton is no less than the difference between Beatles and Metallica, probably even more so).

And indeed, the large & majestic sound of a symphonic orchestra has no parallels with the modern music. But on the other hand I think we can easily compare classical chamber music with jazz/tango/rock. And in this field I'd rather listen something like [1] than any classical quartet/quinter regardless whether it was written by Beethoven or by Shostakovich.

[1]https://youtu.be/XGeLtdmviGM

No, obviously out of ~300 films produced in 30s and 40s each year, 90% or more were dross. What I've meant is:

1. The best films of this period far surpassed my expectations from the technical point of view. And there were a lot of decent-to-exceptional films produced at the time; I could name at least 50 american films worth watching from 1930 to 1950. In comparison, I could hardly name 10 films from 1951 to 1960 that are at least decent (and yes, Paths of Glory, named below, is the best).

I think it was mostly due to the fact that all personnel, connected with the creation of a film at the time were still largely pioneers at the field and they had all possible expertiese in it (films in the 60s and especially in the 70s became noticeably more amateur; 50s suffered due to McCarthy). Movies were still relatively new and there were a lot of innovation in it each year. On top of that, it was a time of the Great Depression and high unemploymend. Hollywood were one of the better off industries and so were able to easlily atrract best of the best.

2. Even B-movies from rich studios had high production values. From the same 1941 I could easily recommend for example The Gay Falcon - Irving Reis - RKO/Nothing But the Truth - Elliott Nugent - Paramount/Charley's Aunt - Archie Mayo - 20 Fox. All are relatively simple, but well worth the watch.

3. What's more important, the 30s and 40s cinema had its own unique style and dynamic, very different from later decades. I'd say it was closer to Imre Kalman and Franz Lehar operettas, rather than more convential movies we are used today. It was, if I may say so, a thing-in-itself, hardly comparable with what came later.

Casablanca for me. Oddly I can't think of many stand-out moments in it. If you asked me why you would enjoy it, I couldn't say. But you would.
I watched this for the first time last week and I was surprised that the plot has remained pretty novel. It's one thing to watch an old movie and recognize it for first producing a certain story (or at least capturing it on film) but I can't think of a similar story to Casablanca and that impressed me.

It was also neat to see the film shot just like a play where there are very particular sets each scene. I wish I could have the scene the original play once.

A few things I didn't like though was the flashback. There was no subtlety and poor writing. They could have started the film with their time in France. The real plot point wasn't that the two characters knew each other but _why_ she left him.

And it was also odd to me that the general was in his headquarters when he learned about the escape attempt but then showed up at the airport... without any men.

Anyway, I did enjoy the movie and am grateful to it for introducing As Time Goes By.

The stand-out moment for me is when somebody shows Rick his ID (a passport?) and his reaction is just "are my eyes really brown?". I can't explain why I like that bit of characterization so much.
I had a film professor who always thought that Casablanca should be number 1 on AFIs Top 100. I tend to agree with him. I think Citizen Kane is a cinematic masterpiece, but Casablanca has a much better and more coherent story.
I've always said Citizen Kane is the best film but Casablanca is the best screenplay.
Apart from anything else, it's rammed with highly quotable and widely quoted dialogue. Anybody watching it for the first time will probably find themselves thinking "Ah - so that's where that comes from" at least a few times.
> I can't think of many stand-out moments in it

To me, the `La Marseillaise` scene[1] is incredibly powerful. The crowd trying to out-sing the German soldiers with the French national anthem, and the sheer raw emotion of the scene. Amazing character moments from Ricky, Victor, and Illsa.

I haven't looked into the veracity, but the legend around the scene is that most of the extras in the bar were French refuges - and the emotion of the scene was very much present on set. Casablanca was filmed during the height of WW2, and came out in 1942, so it does seem plausible.

Louis's brief "I'm shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here!" - Handed a pile of his winnings by the croupier - "Oh, thank you very much." exchange [2] is also a fantastically memorable comedic exchange.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOeFhSzoTuc

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjbPi00k_ME

How can a movie be a fantastic movie if it requires background reading? That's a failure of storytelling.
I think Citizen Kane stands alone. It can be understood as an architypal "power and wealth corrupts" narrative. But our appreciation of art benefits from an understanding of its context and the history of the genre/medium. Citizen Kane may be more meaningful to you if you are aware of Hearst and the related social history in the same way that Wagner's music is wonderful in its own terms, but possibly richer and more meaningful when you understand the philosophy, social context, theology, and mythology he was engaging with as well as the composers he was influenced by and their thinking.

All art is produced in a specific historical moment.

(comment deleted)
It doesn't require background reading at all.

But like many great works of art context can add even more to their enjoyment and impact.

> Most religious books that have stood the test of time have lived up to the hype.

They really haven't. Not a single one of them. There is, however, organized religion around them that has twisted those book to mean whatever it is that brings the flock.

Are they influential? Yes. Have they stood the test of time? Hell, no

You’re talking about the best selling book of all time (by far). Its more likely that you misunderstand it than all the readers misunderstand it.

Its just one of those things that is so popular that people find any way possible to criticize.

(comment deleted)
There are two types of religious texts: those that people like to criticise, and those that nobody reads.
Among Christians hardly anyone reads the Bible except for a number easy passages. And those passages are invariably in the New Testament. The Old Testament is an unknown quantity to the vast number of Christians. I doubt anyone knows the story of Job or Noah except through what preachers tell them.

The Bible a huge book of ancient texts with little structure and inscrutable context that is as alien to a modern person as Mesopotamic cuneiform. Ah, yes, inhabitants of Maktesh, and son of Pethuel, and Cyrus king of Persia, and Sheshbazzar, and... what's for dinner?

For a good chunk of history, wasn't the bible about the only book you could buy in Europe?

Separating the social structures around the bible from the book and trying to talk about it as if it is a product following the same rules as Tom Clancy's next novel is gross and laughable.

This is quite a funny conversation to be having on Christmas Eve :)

There’s probably a reason the Bible was the only available book instead of no books being available in Europe.

Hard disagree. The hype machine around these "scriptures" is (ha) biblical. Ridiculously effective mass brainwashing has resulted in these mediocre stories being promoted while other, better, ones were discarded, fearing their heretical nature. I say waste your time once, then never again. Especially the Quran. Very, very shallow. Just my opinion, get over it.
It is estimated that around 5 billion copies of the Bible were sold and distributed throughout history. [1] This has happened over the course of over two thousand years. Which makes it less popular than Harry Potter (120 million copies of the first book in 20 years) or Twilight.

And that 5 billion number includes a very significant chunk of bibles which are just distributed through various religious centers (same goes for all other religious texts).

And, of course, the number of books sold says literally nothing about whether a book has stood the test of time.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_books?wpr...

That’s not really a great comparison, considering that the printing press didn’t exist for ~1,500 of those years and a mass market didn’t exist for ~1700 of them.
Even that makes the Bible less popular than Harry Potter.
We'll see how many Harry Potters vs the Bible will be printed in total say in 2300 or 2500 AD. Somehow I'm betting on the Bible.
There's no organised institution around Harry Potter. For most part the past 2000 years the Bible was probably the only book most people in the Western World saw or had. It was a required attribute of school curriculum. It was a required book to have at home etc.

None of that makes the Bible "stand the test of time" or make it popular in the same sense as Harry Potter is popular. Compare Bible's "popularity" to Quotations from the Works of Mao Zedong (emphasis mine) [1]:

--- start quote ---

It has been reported that 800 million copies of the red-covered booklet Quotations from the Works of Mao Zedong (Tse-tung) were sold or distributed between June 1966, when possession became virtually mandatory in China, and September 1971, when its promoter Marshal Lin Biao died in an air crash.

--- end quote ---

I doubt any significant number of Bibles are actually sold anymore (especially in what's called "developed world"), but are distributed via churches or other religious organisations. Gideon distributes 50 million bibles per year [2]. Most available statistics talk about "printed" or "distributed" when talking about number of bibles sold which is definitely not the same.

For example [3] (emphasis mine):

--- start quote ---

The Bible is by far the worlds best-selling book of all time. No other book, fact or fiction, even comes close. Most estimates place the number of Bibles printed each year at over 100 million. 20 million Bibles are sold each year in the United States alone.

--- end quote ---

The United States is quite religious, and it still only manages ~20 million books per year for a population of ~400 million people. This number will be significantly smaller in less religious countries, and higher in more religious countries. But once again it hardly makes it popular in the same sense as Harry Potter is popular.

And, of course, once you make more and more books available to people, you will inevitably have smaller numbers of those books sold, but a greater number of them in total. There are 650 million books sold in the US each year. [4] There are 300 thousand new titles each year [5]

But yeah, the Bible is "popular" because it's pushed through an organised religion and has for centuries been a required reading for everyone (for everyone who could read that is, as literacy was scarce at best). And even today it's possible that most bibles go to the same people ("The average American Christian owns 9 Bibles and wants to purchase more" [2])

[1] https://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/best-sell...

[2] https://brandongaille.com/27-good-bible-sales-statistics/

[3] https://thebibleanswer.org/bibles-sold-each-year/

[4] https://www.statista.com/topics/1177/book-market/

[5] https://www.theifod.com/how-many-new-books-are-published-eac...

How many of those Bible copies were actually read?
- A Gallup survey found that less than 50% of Americans can name the first book of the Bible.

- Only 1 in 3 Bible owners know that Jesus delivered the Sermon on the Mount. Billy Graham is a more popular answer than the correct answer.

- 12%. That’s the percentage of Christians who believed that Noah was married to Joan of Arc.

https://brandongaille.com/27-good-bible-sales-statistics/

:)

Yes pure garbage, the book of Job, the Psalms, the Ecclesiastes, the sermon of the mountain, the Sefer Yetzirah, the Popol Vuh, the Upanishads, the Tao Te Ching...garbage,garbage, garbage.

For more garbage please visit https://www.sacred-texts.com/

See what you did? You called it garbage, and then started vehemently disagreeing with yourself.

Listing parts of those books and linking to their texts proves nothing about them standing the test of time.

> - Lifting weights is indeed worth the hype, and its benefits are more diffuse than just “being able to lift heavy things.”

This was unexpected, but true. I started a few month ago, because I moved and noticed that carrying the goceries in the 4th floor interrupted my whole day...

Every movement includes moving weight. It basically makes the whole life easier

As Mark Rippetoe says, “Strong people are harder to kill than weak people and more useful in general.” Harder to kill doesn’t just mean combat either. Real life isn’t like video games either, you can get a great return on strength training time. So good in fact that gaining strength won’t impair your other abilities at all unless you’re planning to compete at the highest levels.
If you want to maintain a high quality of life and an active life into old age, you are going to need to lift weights. Or a similar equivalent exercise that provides impact to preserve strength and bone density.

The sooner one starts the better.

For me i was grabbing something not heavy and instinctly went like a deadlift. And i was impressed i am now instinctly grabbing even easy things with correct posture.
Seconding Ecclesiastes. I'm an atheist and I have never read a more eloquent affirmation of nihilism. It's fascinating knowing someone had these same thoughts 2500 years ago.
Many secular books have stood the test of time as well, I would place Plutarch lives and Montaigne's essays on par with the Bible/other ancient religious texts.
> Most religious books that have stood the test of time have lived up to the hype. The Bible (especially certain books like Ecclesiastes or Proverbs), The Quran, The Upanishads, to name a few. Again, don’t just go in blind, or you’ll walk away thinking none of it makes any sense.

Seeing as how the Quran was "written" over decades and the Bible over millennia, they DON'T make sense. They're both self-contradictory, with various authors pushing various purposes depending on what they wrote and when. There's value in each, but let's not pretend they're towering forks of art with a singular purpose and vision.

Yep, they should be seen more as anthologies rather than a single work.
> "Religious books standing the test of the time.."

Humans started to stay in one location after the invention of agriculture which is quite recent about 10000 years. The mass gathering and agriculture Only after the invention of agriculture some people were able to have leisure time and mass organization became necessary. Bible is roughly 2000 years old. Islam is probably 800 years old. The vedic caste Hinduism is about probably 600 to 800 years old.

   Religion is blip within a blip.
How about Radiohead's 2007 album In Rainbows?

Maybe OK Computer too, but I don't know how much hype there were because I was too young then...

Wasn't In Rainbows famously released as a surprise and thus had no real hype built up to it?
I was a particularly anxsty teenager at the time, but I do remember there being plenty of hype and speculation about "LP7" in Radiohead fan circles before In Rainbows finally arrived.
If I recall it was initially a self released pay how much you want download.

I believe this was a 'first' and there was more hype about that than the album itself.

In Rainbows is my favorite Radiohead album for sure, closely followed by the Bends.

I do remember the "name your price" thing, but it seems I've completely forgotten it was unannounced release!

Therefore, there was virtually no hype...

Ehhh, Radiohead is very divisive. My music friends are very split with them. Half can't get off their knees praising them.

The other half see them as bandwagon music.

I think they're music is alright but I think most people dive into like it's the bible or something and you can't say anything bad about them.

>Half can't get off their knees praising them.

The other half see them as bandwagon music.

They are both right. OK Computer and Kid A deserve all their praise and more. They were like nothing else in popular music at the time. After those two records, they were rather bandwagonesque, although to their credit, they did create the bandwagon they have ridden on since then. Although the self-release they did for In Rainbows certainly changed the artist relationship with fans and media companies. How they released that album was far more the game changer than the content.

Regarding OK Computer, not so much hype as I recall but after The Bends they were certainly a group to pay attention to. I don't think anyone was expecting anything as exceptional as OK Computer from them. What lived up to all the hype was the follow up, Kid A.
this one is interesting because they basically invented the “pay what you want” box for selling digital media.

tons of people copy this now, it’s not even notable. but at the time, the idea that they would let you type in $0 was shocking.

I try not to hype up albums I love too much anymore.

I think of Radiohead as our late stage Beatles. Experimental and exciting, even if there's a jagged edge now and then.

In Rainbows was very accessible and holds up in my view.

OK Computer was more of a surprise. Listen to The Bends first, and you will hear what a break it was in quality and style. Their next release, Kid A, was the one that was hotly anticipated. It was also a huge departure, but when they were the biggest band in the world.

Kid A holds up too.

I think Radiohead lives up to the hype. One way to check on this is to watch them live (say, on YouTube) or pick up some of their concerts on etree (a free taper sharing site). They make headphone records, and then they replicate most of their sounds in real time.

When the M1 chip was introduced I was a bit underwhelmed. Apple being so vague about their performance didn't exactly inspire confidence.

But as more information has come out it seems like the hype has actually increased.

Definitely this. To me, it's the most revolutionary thing they've done since the iPad.
I think the ipad is meh, so better than that. iphone?
Same. I guess the iPad Pro is interesting for artists, but I have owned a couple of iPads and it turns out I would much rather have a laptop and an e-reader.
I’ve gone back and forth about the iPad, but now that I’m in a non-technical field, it’s on the tipping point of being my daily driver. When I’m with clients and can hold it in my hand to share info it feels like I’m living in the future.
Good point. As a technical professional I’ve always been on the fence about the iPad because of its limitations. I love the form factor and specs, but it just isn’t good enough for e.g. programming.

If I was mainly writing and doing some simple graphical work I’d ditch my other devices in a heartbeat.

It's great as a "consumption" device to watch videos and read and play games.
Yeah, it like someone went two years into the future and brought back this chip.

As a Chromebook fan (and I used one as my daily driver), it seems like Apple has out-Chromebooked all Chromebooks with the M1 MBA. Unless AMD or Qualcomm pulls a rabbit out of their collective hats in the next 6 months, the MBA will be my next laptop.

You can usually buy 2-3 Chromebooks for the same price point, how are those two even comparable?
Haha. Excellent point indeed !
> How are those two even comparable?

They're both locked down with fury and will eventually be rendered useless due to no software updates.

You can attempt to install Linux to those but... Will you succeed?

I have 3 chromebook bricked due to update issues. My 2009 imac is going strong and gut feeling says my 2020 MBA will definitely outlast 2023 chromebooks.
New Macbook Air outperforms 2019 macbook pro with i7 and 16gb ram easily. Judging not by benchmarks but with just plain work and usage :)
I'm still on the fence. I could use a new laptop but everything I've looked at doesn't live up to what I would hope for in terms of battery life and specs.

The M1 seems to fit the bill. But I'm hesitant to buy into something that I can't run linux on.

Yes this is a drawback for me as well. I have basically moved completely away from Windows toward Linux for my home media PC, and I have enjoyed it so much I would like to do the same on the laptop. I was seriously considering an XPS 13" before I bought an M1 air, but it just doesn't seem like any other laptops are quite there at the moment. It would be nice if AMD's next low-power line gets more adoption by laptop manufacturers.
> The M1 seems to fit the bill. But I'm hesitant to buy into something that I can't run linux on.

Exactly. Apple is even introducing further restrictions on macOS, to turn it into a closed system like ios totally under Apple's control. (They've already crippled all application firewalls so that they cannot block any apple authorised software from accessing the internet, and they can even bypass VPNs, all in the marketing speak of "security" while the real reason is to better spy on its users).

> all in the marketing speak of "security" while the real reason is to better spy on its users

Not really. Apple's vice is the tendency to lock down their platforms too much and we're seeing this with the new laptops; their track record with regards to privacy is pretty good.

> their track record with regards to privacy is pretty good.

So was Google's. Till they decided to screw their users. Once bitten, twice shy.

If Apple was serious about user privacy, it wouldn't be crippling application firewall on the new macOS to allow Apple apps to bypass them, even if the user is explicitly blocking them. Nor would they be forcing us to create a unique id to track and record our every activity on their device (yes, they treat it as their device by giving you an illusion of ownership). Nor would they be crippling Safari to not allow you to block all coookies or cripple its extension apis that would have allowed better ad blockers and trackers to be developed. Nor would they be forcing us to use App stores, forcing themselves in between u users and developers to gauge us both of money, while also invading our privacy.

What are you referring to re: Google? Google has always been a data vacuum, but their privacy and transparency has been on a long upward trend and is currently the best it has ever been.
Do you have sources to back up your claims of spyware?
As I pointed out with the firewall / VPN changes, most of their recent actions are all directed at ensuring that only Apple gets to decide how you protect your data (and what you can protect). And these these major changes that take away control from the user also help Apple to harvest more and more user data. (Another similar change, that allowed Apple to spy on your internet browsing "anonymously", was made with Safari when it disabled the user options to control cookies and crippled ad and tracker blocker extensions.)
Most of machines (a dozen or more) run gnu/linux for the longest time; not long ago the only deviations were lone openbsd box and the macbook pro I got issued at work (because of an ios apps development).

Apple Silicon was hyped and that hype was backed by some early benchmarks; I still was sceptical because it goes against all my Ryzen logic essentially :D

Got my hands on the Air M1 this week finally and this thing is absolutely impossible. Single-core math benchmarks (scimark4) are 10-15% faster than my trusty ryzen 3900X. Synthetic tests apart - C/C++ compilation is more than 2 (two!) times faster than macbook pro with 6core i7 CPU, that is a huge deal for me. All that with passive cooling!

On a different not another hyped thing that I really want (and waiting for) is a new Raspberry Pi 400 - it is a quite capable tiny computer embedded in a keyboard, those things are a piece of beauty I think :)

Yeah it's actually pretty cool. I got an M1 air, even though I normally don't jump on 1st gen products, partly out of COVID boredom I suppose. I thought I would use it along side my 2017 15" MBP at least until things caught up on the software side, but I have barely touched the pro since I got it. The screen is smaller, and the speakers are not quite as good, but it's so snappy, light and quiet that it more than makes up for it.

There are still some rough edges: for serious development a lot of things are not quite there yet: e.g. last time I checked, there's no native release for NodeJS, and home-brew is still hit-or-miss. A lot of things work with Rosetta, but it surely takes more tweaking and trial and error to get things running than normal. But I've been programming mostly in Rust lately, and that works flawlessly on nightly, so I haven't really thought about compatibility since I was kicking the tires the second day I had it. YMMV depending on which tools you use.

All in all, I think this is the most I have really had fun using a laptop since I got my first MBA in 2012 or so. It was so light to travel with, and powerful enough for everything I needed, so it pretty quickly replaced my other laptop for pretty much everything.

> hype has actually increased.

Marketing can do that. And as Apple seems to be betting its future on ARM chips, you can bet that they will "market" the hell out of it.

As far as I can tell the AMD Ryzen chips are much much faster than M1.
Vue 3.

It was highly anticipated but when it was initially announced everyone including HNers were up in arms about how it's going to kill Vue. I can't find the thread but I do remember it vaguely.

Thankfully the release not only lived up to its hype (faster, smaller, easier) but also put to rest almost all objections about backward compatibility. I really think the Vue team did an awesome job with their next release.

For me it was the opposite, but I guess it really depends on your use case. I was heavily into a typescript based custom server side rendered setup and I would need massive refactoring to be able to use vue 3 (vue class based components). The SSR story in Vue 3 is still very much up in the air. I switched to next.js with mobx and for me React seems to live up to it's hype more than I expected.
Same here.

Since React I'd say maybe Svelte delivered the most in relation to it's hype. Otherwise nothing special happened in the frontend framework world.

That's good to know. And how did the upgrade from 2.x projects go? I have got a couple of projects I want to migrate, but haven't started yet.
Funny as yesterday I was thinking that since Vue 3 release I had not heard much about it.

My theory was that not having the router and vuex ready on day one had hindered the hype. Maybe I've been wrong.

Interesting. After Vue 3 was announced, I switched to React, and I found I liked it a lot more than Vue since there's no templating language, everything is a function.
That's funny, I had the same experience. I enjoyed using Vue 2 but when Vue 3 came out and was totally different I decided I'd try out React again. React hooks changed the game for me and now back to only using React.

I have no doubt Vue 3 is the bee's knees, but I'm rather enjoying React.

Exactly, I thought, well if Vue is getting hooks, why not just go to the source directly? Also I got annoyed that many popular libraries these days are React only, and I didn't want to miss out.
Hagrids motorbike roller coaster at universal studios in Orlando was worth the wait (if you get the front row and ride at night).
> The attraction "has been plagued by downtime problems from day one" and has been cited as "one of the most unreliable in the entire theme park industry" due to its frequent downtime.
Most of those issues have been resolved and I wouldn't call it particularly downtime prone anymore. In case you're curious, here's a video from one of my favorite theme park YouTubers describing the ride and why it took so long to get the kinks ironed out: https://youtu.be/iXBkB5xjFR8 (TL;DW: an insane amount of animatronics and effects that are rare to roller coasters)
mRNA and the vaccines that speedily came from it.
mRNA vaccines and big pharma in general. In a big, “we went to the moon” kind of way.
Factorio!!! (It wasn't really hyped, but if it was, it would have lived up to it.)

Actual video from the game doesn't qualify as hype! And the code is rock solid and wicked efficient.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DR01YdFtWFI&ab_channel=Facto...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVvXv1Z6EY8&ab_channel=Facto...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqaAjgpsoW8&ab_channel=Facto...

coffee stain studios in general are phenomenal at delivering exactly what they promise. whether that's a balanced, fun factory automation sim or a game where goats lick stuff for no reason.
Factorio was made by Wube Software though? Or are you referring to Satisfactory?
oh; you're right. i'm more familiar with satisfactory than factorio, i thought they were by the same studio, whoops.
They also made the Sanctum series, which is an extremely satisfying tower defense/FPS hybrid.
So I tried it for 5 minutes and didn’t get into it. How much time do I need to spend to make it to fall for it? Or am I the minority who didn’t vibe off it at the beginning?
My experience was it clicked pretty much immediately. I think if you don't get it by the time you're on green science, then it might just not be for you.
How much did you automate before you quit? Because everything, on almost every level of abstraction, is automatable. That, to me, is a lot of the appeal. If you manually mine more than the first few minutes in the game, you are doing something wrong. It's like Minecraft but with many many more levels in the tech tree, and it is automated.
Yeah, I didn't like it because it felt like what I already do at work.
im with you i hated it because instead of letting me enjoy the game it forces me to use my remaining brain cells
Same here. For me I find the UI very poor and this breaks everything.
I would say the game is very much like a CLI - you might at first recoil at the visual style, but almost immediately you understand why - there's going to be a LOT of stuff on the screen, and your little simple man and his simple stuff leads to a simple way of assaying what is happening where.

I would say to enjoy the game you really have to play it to the point where you build robots. Factorio is a game that is amazing for many reasons, but to me the main one is exponential growth.

At a certain inflection point you can basically tear down everything you've ever built by hand, and have robots recreate it all in a minute or two.

The combination of blueprints and robots turn the game from some tedium to a game purely of mind and very little tedium.

I initially played through the tutorial levels (that you can get for free) before buying the full game, and I think that helped a lot; it's a very keyboard-centric interface that takes awhile to get used to and isn't likely to appeal to everyone. But the tutorials are pretty good.

Also, a lot of the stuff that's kind of tedious and awkward, like laying out complex belt systems, gets a lot easier when you get construction bots and can start building from blueprints. It's like a different game from that point.

A theme of the game seems to be to make the player do things that are hard or laborious but which can be accomplished in an easier way by using the the tools at hand more effectively, or eventually the problems can be worked around with new technology. It's not quite like a puzzle game where you have to solve each problem in front of you correctly before you can advance; rather you can keep advancing until the point where you're overwhelmed by technical debt (e.g. you end up spending most of your time running around fixing train deadlocks).

Not everything that's awkward or hard is a deliberate game mechanic, though. In the 1.1 release they've said they're planning to change some things that have been pain points for users.

I forgot that. Yes, I really hated it when I first played it. I got attacked and couldn't select things quickly and I died and couldn't get to my stuff anymore. I almost gave up.

It turns out the UI is fairly configurable and after I made it so right click cancels I sort of adapted.

But yes, when I first played it the UI was horrible. It needs some sane defaults like more common RTS games.

Huh, I literally just purchased this from www.gog.com

I am looking forward to its complexity :)

I’m an avid Factorio player. It is rare to see such commitment to craftsmanship that the Factorio developers demonstrate. Every aspect of the game is continually refined and improved. The game is very performant even when there tens of thousands of entities moving around at any moment.

The multiplayer gameplay also reveals a lot of fundamental truths about collaborative engineering as the player must debate architecture, prioritize and balance between the short term and the long term, join individual efforts into a group product, discover Schelling points, and so on.

> The game is very performant even when there tens of thousands of entities moving around at any moment.

You factory isn’t big enough if the game is still very performant ;) The factory must grow.

This isn't a metaphor for the essential problems of capitalism at all.
Not really, no; unbound growth is hardly unique to one economic system, or economics at all.
oh please stop... don't take something as joyous and wonderful as Factorio and try to make it about misery. I play games like Factorio to not worry about the world's problems for a few hours.
I haven't checked the dev's actual intentions, but I'd be surprised if the misery isn't an entirely intended theme of the game. That's why the factory causes pollution, which the insects attack, earning you the aptly named achievement "It stinks and they don't like it". You're f'ing up an ecosystem with an ever growing, and maddeningly wasteful [0], contraption. Your factory is an invasive cancer of metal and plastic.

[0] The overwhelming majority of what you make gets thrown into a blender and turned into Science Juice.

(comment deleted)
I tried fucking with Factorio and watching the green world get turned into a bare brown desert full of machines was immensely depressing. I sympathized with the bugs: destroy these machines, let the world stay pleasant. I think the misery is inherent in the game already.
You just need to research nukes and torch your base.
Factorio was one of the rare few early access games I paid for because even at like .30 I thought "This is a full game (and stable) and they still want to do more?!" Also I like the minecraft model of never changing the price. It always feels like a good buy then because it isn't instantly devalued at the next steam sale.
Factorio is freaking amazing and is my goto game. I've just gotten into the multiplayer aspects and it's completely rekindled my love after 1400 hours of game-time (according to steam, far bit of afk here to be honest). There are train worlds, mod worlds, pvp worlds, so many new and unique ways to play. One of the best parts of this game for me has been that both the depth and speed of it are totally up to you. Although many people simply try and speed run rockets or automate their factory, this is all completely optional. You can create works of art, music generators, blinking lights, even straight up computers!

One of my recent side projects has been building out a modded multiplayer server that allows me to sell plots of land to players. My idea is to create a city of player-owned museums and shops, all with the backdrop of a custom story narrative in a high-end designed mall of sorts. My inspiration for doing so has been from watching first person videos of people walking in Japan, wanting to experience that but being unable due to the lock-downs. My favorite aspect has been creating an in-game 'paid' train line that lead the player out of the dense concrete shopping district and into one of the beautiful blue and green tree parks, the visual switch-up makes the experience fantastically enjoyable. I'm not really sure I'll end up making any real income from it but the process has been a complete blast. Playing the game in this fashion feels the same as Minecraft did, just with more automation and potential for world building.

Although not strictly Factorio related, something else I've pursued within the game has been setting up a semi-interactive self in my room. I have a few small monitors all linked up playing, and I just set my character to hang out in various places online. One game sits in a train-world just cruising along, another sits in a beautifully animated forest, another still hangs out on a pristine beach that I found. Sitting inside a small room day after day due to the pandemic has been brutal but this setup has greatly improved my sense of connection to the outside. Apart from getting to look over and see something that is visually appealing (and green now that bleakness of winter is here), I'll occasionally see random people join a server and become friends trying to build something together, it's awesome! My shelf has become an interactive, aquarium, IRC, hybrid, all thanks to this game.

I started playing factorio a few days ago because I read Sriram Krishnan’s interview with Tobi Lutke who raved about it [1]. In fact, I’ve read here on HN that you can expense factorio at Shopify :)

It’s almost a perfect game for a software developer. Unlike software which is difficult to visualize, factorio is all about the visualization. It makes it really easy to see your “hacks”, your “scaling”, and your “async”. It also makes it really easy to see your bugs as well. It’s like working on a program that is always running, in a debugger, but with the ability to dynamically add and change the running code in real time.

Another observation: it’s kind of like Excel. The sheet is always live and the sheet acts as a debugger (you see the data and not the code, you see the outputs not the transforms).

Can’t recommend it enough.

[1] https://twitter.com/sriramk/status/1339257751873064961?s=21

> It’s like working on a program that is always running, in a debugger, but with the ability to dynamically add and change the running code in real time.

Which is actually pretty true of actual real world environments like SmallTalk.

how factorio compares to rimworld? it seems to focus more on the factory aspect instead of the social, but besides that they seem pretty similar
They are very different games IMHO, to the point that I find it difficult to name what outside some superficial UI similarity and a vague survival setting (that many factorio players disable entirely) is similar.
Factorio has a veneer of RTS but its challenge and interest comes from factory design and managing queues of supply and demand (if you want to think about it like that). It layers complexity on complexity.

Rimworld is all about character management and anecdote creation in my view. The challenge and interest is about managing randomness and character driven conflict in a game designed to produce conflict.

They play very differently in my experience.

Factorio is almost exclusively about factory building and automation.

Rimworld is much more of a social/survival game, with hunting, gathering, cooking, diseases, invaders, exploration, character emotions, etc.

Factorio has basically none of that; it's much more about plumbing together inputs and outputs into increasingly complex and useful items. The survival aspect of Factorio is just that you are surrounded by bugs that will attack you if you pollute too much or antagonize them.

I’ve sunk a lot of time into both games. They’re complimentary to each other.

Factorio is fantastic if you love automation and building complex production pipelines. The game gives you incredible control over building and controlling the manufacturing of stuff. The main motivation is to optimize that, and there are many avenues to do so. You care very little about your “person” (the being that you control) except to keep it alive.

Rimworld is much more rich in what you can choose to do, since it’s primarily a story generation game. You have a lot less control over your manufacturing pipeline. You also have to deal with the humanity of your pawns, who need to eat, sleep and enjoy recreation. You have to keep them alive through natural disasters and raids. Your pawns may die but the story doesn’t end there.

They’re really different games. When I get upset with stupidity of pawns and want more precise automation, I switch to factorio. When I get bored with the dreariness of an automated factory churning out trinkets, I switch to rimworld.

They're the opposite. Factorio is an extreme about having control. Rimworld is an extreme about control being ripped from your hands.
How does it compare to Satisfactory and Shapez.io (which is sold as a minimalistic factorio). I bought shapezio on steam some time and realized just yesterday i already collected 60h playtime on it... Now I'm thinking about digging sonewhere deeper.
Factorio is the direct inspiration for both those games.
Yes, I know. Not what I asked.

It doesn't matter anyway. A good copy can be better than the original.

In this case, I will tell you that I don't think that Satisfactory is better than Factorio. I was incredibly excited for the idea of 3D Factorio, but so far, it just leaves me asking, "What's the point"? It doesn't get me anywhere near as excited as a new build in Factorio.
If you want 3D Factorio just get Minecraft and a modpack like Omnifactory or Skyfactory or Gregtech New Horizons. Minecraft is something that easy to keep coming back because of the large modding community.

If you want want an economy simulation MMO then checkout prosperous universe.

I liked shapez the best of those three. Felt like it was streamlined to just the fun part.
In spite of the years of careful optimization, aggressive multithreading and 2d sprite-based graphics, Factorio still needs a pretty good computer to keep up 60 UPS (simulation updates per second) when you have a truly gigantic factory.

I have to imagine that if you tried to take a Factorio mega-factory (like a 1 rocket per minute factory) and load up the equivalent in Satisfactory, with its 3d graphics and off-the-shelf rigid body dynamics, it would crash to desktop immediately.

Don’t get me wrong, Satisfactory looks like a fun game! But nothing can match Factorio’s depth.

for something that scratches a similar itch, but is much more constrained and puzzle like (in a good way) try Infinifactory. It actually predates Factorio and all of the games mentioned and is very much worth playing.

http://www.zachtronics.com/infinifactory/

I’ve played all three games and for me factorio is easily the best.

Designing big factories in Satisfactory feels awkward - it’s very hard to refactor and redesign because the buildings are so big and you need to build them one by one. The engineer in me is always vaguely dissatisfied with what I make in satisfactory. Satisfactory’s world is beautiful to explore - but that makes it a different sort of game.

And shapez was ok, but it lacks factorio’s loop. In factorio you build things out of what you mine and construct. Shapez needs its artificial level structure to motivate you to do anything - and I find that much less satisfying because it saps my intrinsic motivation. Factorio feels grounded in the world, whereas shapez feels like a puzzle game with almost no constraints.

The factorio modding scene is also incredible. Their are so many alternate ways to play factorio - complete with way deeper tech trees, or a base that teleports between planets every 10 minutes, Seaworld - where you start on a tiny island with nothing but ocean in every direction. And as others have mentioned, the game is rock solid. Multiplayer is an absolute blast.

That was my experience with Satisfactory as well. Factorio's greatest gameplay achievement is taking away mundane things once you've mastered them to the point of mind-numbing repetition. It's a sliding window, whereas Satisfactory just keeps piling on more layers of complexity without really abstracting anything away, save only for the running around with a chainsaw to keep your generators running.
their development blog was also one of my favorite engineering blogs before they released 1.0
It does actually get a lot of hype in tech circles. I tried it recently and found it to be addictive as advertised, but in all the wrong ways. Programmers kept going on and on about how great it was, but all I saw was ever increasing complexity for no real reason. I launched the rocket and haven't touched it since. I think I would have enjoyed it more if bots were available much earlier in the tech tree or something.
You aren't the first person to feel that way; there are mods specifically for pushing bots to the very early game (if not the very start).
The game makes you think that the goal is to launch a rocket with a satellite aboard. And when you do, you get the “Congratulations!” message. But you also get a counter in the UI, showing how many rockets you’ve launched (Just 001?). And you get 1000 white science, which up until this point had never been seen in the game...

...and after a few minutes, a new goal comes to mind: Launch one rocket every minute. And that’s when the deep game begins. You’ll need massive power production and manufacturing infrastructure, you’ll start using the online calculators to figure out ratios of this to that, and when you get to 1 rocket per minute, you’ll want to see if you can design a system that does that while running completely untouched for 24 hours.

Just the thought of further scaling the beast of a factory I made, again, to deal with all the added complexity makes me want to purge that game from my Steam account. No thanks, I am not interested in additional slog for its own sake.
At a certain point I definitely get to the “wait, I’m just managing complexity in a game, if I’m gonna do this, I should actually make something” thought, and then I stop. But there’s something really satisfying about watching a huge but well oiled mechanism perform its motions, and that’s why I personally like this game.
It’s certainly a personal preference.

I experienced exactly what you meant on my first run. Launched a rocket after a lot of slog, and lost interest after that. But I never got to actually use eg the nuclear tech very much, which itself makes me want to go back and try it again.

Personally, I wish there were more combat/enemy dynamics involved rather than “just” insectoids swarming the base. And that’s just one angle: other compelling reasons to build more efficient factories would have made me want to go back too.

I try every now and then to start from scratch, but just the idea of starting from the basics seems so daunting and not motivating enough so I kinda just give up after the first day.

For me Factorio is a way to safely confront my feelings about ever increasing complexity and mess and somehow get past them to find strength to improve things.
After I launched a rocket, it was a bit of a letdown. (I mean I was sad it ended)

Before that, it was amazing.

"Do I fumble my way forward with my current way of doing things or try this new thing? (struggle struggle) Oh wow!"

Two finales:

- Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows. When the seventh book came out in 2007 there was this fear among the fandom that JK Rowling couldn't deliver a great ending. I think most people agreed she did very well (even more than expected, considering the complexity of the story in the prior six books).

- Breaking Bad last season / last episode: there aren't many tv shows that can end in a high note (check Game of Thrones, for example). I think Breaking Bad - and in general, what separates the best tv shows from great tv shows - is that they are able to have a good ending.

> Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows

Man... there is way too much deus ex machina at every plot point of that book to give it any credit. If you have the end of the 6th book as a starting point and the end of series that Rowling had in mind as an end, then Deathly Hallows is just connecting those two points using plot conveniences at every single opportunity. Too many fortunate coincidences in a very short period of time. (Half-Blood Prince is still peak Harry Potter IMO).

Couldn’t agree more. I wish I hadn’t read it. HBP was the peak. In DH they just run around the woods for a while. I was extremely disappointed with DH.
"They just run around the woods for a while."

I'm sorry, that's plain incorrect. First, they're at Privet Drive, then the Burrow, then Grimmauld Place, then they camp for a few weeks-months but it's highly condensed plot-wise. They don't "run around the woods" at any point, that silly chase scene with the snatchers is onlyin the film.

Why do they hide? Because there is ZERO safe-space in the rest of the UK. They are forced into hiding to maintain their safety until such time as the horcruxes are gone and battle can commence. How is that much different from Frodo and Sam wandering the wilds alone at the last 2 LotR books? In HP, they are in society and non-wilderness far more than Frodo and Sam. And then they do a lot of epic shit at the end that has nothing to do with the woods.

Re-read the book, the woods part is a very small aspect.

To be fair Frodo and Sam wandering alone was a low point of the LotR series for me as well. I do remember starting to skim when we got into the interminable sequence of "and they're still climbing the mountain". Like, I get it's a struggle but 800+ pages in and it's not going to get any realer for me sitting in a comfortable chair (or on an airplane as I was) then it already was.
Honestly, Frodo and Sam in the woods was also the least enjoyable part of lord of the rings for me.

Well, ok, second most if we're going by the books, there was the two chapters of bombadil

I have read it many times.

Why was the book centered around a children’s story that we didn’t hear about until book 7? Why were the deathly hollows items not mentioned at all throughout the entire rest of the series? Why do we not find out until the last book that the invisibility cloak should have faded a long time ago? That last point especially irritates me because it just smells like lazy writing.

I love Harry Potter. I have read the series many many times. I sincerely wish I had never read the last book. It felt rushed, unplanned, and almost desperate.

There is a fluid cohesion between books 1-6 that completely disappears in book 7.

JKR didn't fully flesh out her universe at the start. She had feature creep just like any app, she added tons of spells and stories and characters and enriched the world book by book.

While HP:DH does have a "summary" vibe, going back to all the old places and seeing all the old characters' plots wrapped up nicely, I do think she needed SOME new material in there. She needed to create new tension, she needed new suspense; simply wrapping up things she'd already devised wouldn't have been fresh enough for her, or for us, I think.

If I had to change just two things about DH, I think I'd remove the epilogue (it could just be an online essay, there's no need to put a second bow on top of the present, you know?) and I'd remove wand lore. The idea that your wand changes allegiance whenever someone bests you in any way, physical or magical? Come on, that is borderline plot manipulation. Now, Harry wins the fight at the end because Voldemort's wand knew that Harry's hands pulled some wands out of Draco's hand, who in turn disarmed a Dumbledore who wasn't trying to not be disarmed? I mean, ugh, wand lore was a sort of hand-wavey MEH aspect, IMO.

I think Book 6 and Book 3 are the pinnacles...they don't feature battles with Lord Voldemort, they're nicely self-contained, they have fantastic endings, I'm getting chills thinking of them.

BTW, why didn't they leave the country? Really weird that with the wide world open to them they decided to stick around the UK.
Because the whole series depicts the UK as the center of the world, a continuation of the pre war Pax Brittanica.

Little, if any, mention is made of wizards/witches from other countries unless absolutely required, and none are portrayed as being equal to the one based in England. There is not even a mention of Ministries of Magic of other nations (China?) or in former colonies (US? India?).

How is there too much deus ex machina? You threw out that label and never mentioned a single plot point to substantiate your claim.

I believe there's very little deus ex machina. The main point is that Voldemort delved too greedily into dark magic, weakening himself very much, while Lily's love magic was pure and protected her son against Voldemort's evil magic. This is why Harry can see into his mind and why he manages amazing feats like Gringotts or escape at Godric's Hollow, because Voldemort's hubris handed Harry the tools. It's all explained in the chapter "King's Cross", re-read that chapter and you'll gain fresh clarity.

JKR does introduce new concepts and history unknown previously to Harry, but name a book she doesn't do that. She'd be raked over the coals if she didn't offer anything new in one of her longest of the seven books. She needed the Deathly Hallows as a new mystery, a new suspense that creates tension throughout the book, pulling you onwards and competing for the horcruxes. It also highlights Harry's temptation to attain that which Dumbledore sought, but ultimately Harry chose the wiser path than Albus.

The other new concept was wand lore, which was not very fleshed out before DH. I don't love that wand lore dictated the final duel so heavily, why does Harry have to win based on overpowering a 3rd wizard, the wand truly knows that? Why not just have Harry's courageous, love-inspired magic overcome Voldemorts? It's kind of a letdown that Harry beats Voldy because he took 3 wands from Draco's hand...

Other than these two concepts, I don't see anything new and cheap like a deus ex machina. That term would literally mean that Harry is defeated by Voldemort in the end (he never was), only to be saved by a God at the last minute (he never was). Harry won on his and his allies' courage, and Voldemort lost due to his own hubris and his own determination to focus on wands and to tell all his servants not to kill Harry.

From wikipedia:

> Deus ex machina is a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem in a story is suddenly and abruptly resolved by an unexpected and unlikely occurrence.

Examples from Deathly Hallows.

Having no idea how to proceed on your quest of finding and destroying Horcruxes? The only soul who was there with Voldemort when the locket was planted, happens also to be magically bound to Harry and have obligation to obey Harry's every command.

Need to impersonate someone? Just pick a hair off your cloak for the potion.

Don't know where the next horcrux is? Immediate vision from Voldemort's mind to help you.

A character who has crucial information is killed? Well no, instead of using a spell like any other time, Voldemort decides to leave Snape to slowly die giving him just enough time to share his memories with Harry.

Need to check if your mortal enemy is really dead? Don't verify yourself but send the only person in the group who has any incentive to lie to you about it. (And you're supposed to be able to magically tell when people are lying by the way).

The way to destroy a horcrux is hidden in a place accessible only to those who speak parseltongue? Nope, Ron can just guess his way into an ability that was previously established to be hereditary or transfered through magic.

I could go on... the point isn't any single one of these, it's more about how they accumulate throughout the book.

I think a key property of a deus ex machina is the abruptness of the occurrence. In vulgar Latin...an asspull. A lot of these examples had years of set-up or serve a narrative purpose.

- Yeah finding the locket was a bit too serendipitous but Kreacher has been shown before to obey Harry _contemptuously_. When asked to report on Draco's activities in HBP, he reports the most mundane things, making his report essentially useless without breaking his obligation. He only finally cooperated when Harry looked at him as a creature with feelings, not just a servant. Ties back to when he asked Dobby to sit down in CoS, which sends the elf wailing at the decency.

- Polyjuice has been established since CoS, along with the cost of using/making it and its limits. Hardly sudden and hardly an unfair advantage.

- Did a Voldyvision ever lead Harry directly to a Horcrux? I don't remember so. The closest I recall is Harry willingly slipping into this trance to verify Voldemort's anger at discovering the loss of the locket---not a huge advantage and a reasonable tactical move. The diadem, Harry had to rack his brains for that, even empathize with a ghost.

- Voldemort couldn't Avada Kedavra Snape because he believes Snape is the Elder Wand's master.

- Snape lied to Voldemort to the very end, his legillimency is not infallible. Sending Narcissa Malfoy is a bit of good luck, I'll grant, though it also emphasizes how one of Voldemort's weaknesses is his inability or plain refusal to read people. He failed to see that Snape loved Lily so, which caused him to turn for the good, and he failed to see how much Narcissa cared for her son---he didn't consider she'd have a reason to lie to him.

- Ron "speaking" Parseltongue as a plot turn feels a bit rushed and unsatisfying indeed but is not at all miraculous. I can say "Spasibo" to thank my Russian coworkers even if I'm not Russian and hardly has training in Russian.

I mean, it's a book about magic... what do you expect?
That's not an excuse for sloppy writing though. Even a book about magic needs a level of consistency within its own universe and when the quality is above a certain level, I'm prepared to suspend disbelief and go along with the story and not nitpick.
It's also a children's book that evolved in a book for young adults. I always thought it was supposed to be whimsical and fun, not have serious complicated plots
Brian Sanderson (and others) have written plenty of magic-filled books with more interesting endings. If you want a 'hard magic' system, the one in the Mistborn series is pretty interesting (ingesting and 'burning' particular metals for particular abilities):

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mistborn

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandon_Sanderson

'Booktuber' Merphy Napier recently did two videos on magic systems in fantasy novels:

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcMQk4ltJa0

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nd6f3tAOUHk

My biggest frustration with Harry Potter is that Harry never has to actually make tough decisions. All moral dilemmas are resolved by a deus ex. He never even has to murder the villain, just deflects his spell back at him. My eyes rolled straight to the back of my head.

The books deliver a fantastical, childish view of morality where the world will always save you from having to make difficult decisions.

> The books deliver a fantastical, childish view of morality

Almost like they were written for children...

Plenty of young adult books, which is what Harry Potter was, especially after the first book, engage with difficult moral situations. Harry Potter instead tells you that you can have your cake and eat it too.
I'd say a big thing is how old you are when reading HP. I loved all the books and loved the ending. Over time I started reading Asimov and Vinge and became repulsed by the quality of the whole HP story. One lucky boy doing dumb things and getting away with it, all happening in a world where magic is done in the worst balance between mystic and explained. If I recall correctly, they tried to make the most sense of the Snape's magic spells. Compare the nonsense to the way a young man of 16 years imagined magic in Eragon where I really liked how he tried to keep as much consistency with energy cost and implications. Harry Potter really is just mostly for kids
True. I was around 9 when I got into HP and 15 when the last book came out so it hit me right at the appropriate age where the books get slightly more serious as you grow up but you're still a kid who is into the book universe. The lore or some of the overarching plot points don't make too much sense when looking at them with adult eyes but you still have to give Rowling credit for writing books that are just difficult to put down for someone at the right age.
Yeah, Eragon did get the "magic world" right in its fantasy series. But then it lost track of the story in its reams of pages ...
The almost carbon copy of Star Wars to Eragon really changed my perception of the series.
For a counterexampel, my personal experience is pretty different. I had read almost every one[1] of Asimov's novels and short stories by the time Deathly Hallows came out when I was 16, and I was still a big enough fan of Harry Potter to finish each book the day it came out.

To this day i'm pretty confident I could pick up a Harry Potter book and enjoy it. There are different types of storytelling, and not every kind has to have balanced stakes or world-building that stands up to scrutiny. And it's not like Asimov's work doesn't have similar flaws: as much as I love the scope of the Foundation series, it does settle into a bit of a pattern of setting up seemingly insurmountable challenges and then resolving them through neat changes to the rules of engagement of psychohistory (though as a much more ambitious series than HP, it's more understandable).

[1] Literally; I was ravenous

Yeah, but the Eragon stories were just one boy's quest to minmax himself.
I thought that the Homeland series finale was in the same class. After a meandering few middle seasons, the last one was surprisingly satisfying.
well i gave up on homeland during the meandering middle seasons, i'll have to pick it back up now.
Futurama also had a fantastic ending.
Yes, they tried to end the show a couple of times but the last-last episode is lovely.
I agree. (Edit: to add to this, I've always thought that the third-last episode of Futurama, 'Murder on the Planet Express', was a return to form and reminiscent of the heyday of the show).

On the subject of tv shows, ‘Peep Show’, the British sitcom, also had a very strong final season and final episode.

Mr. Robot's entire final season. Especially the last half.
First half of the final season was great, but the writing in the last half felt rushed and at times cheap. It ended up being predictable, where the rest of the show was the complete opposite. They had the ability to write better, first half of that season and prior seasons proved this, but came off as if they were trying to wrap it up too quickly and finalize the loose ends :/
As I understand they intended to have 5 seasons but condensed it to 4.

I agree the last season felt rushed but overall I felt the whole course of the show was more cohesive than most series.

It really was incredible, especially after watching Game of Thrones and seeing how that ending turned out. Episode 8 of season 4 was briefly at the top of IMDb, and it was an amazing revelatory episode.
> in general, what separates the best tv shows from great tv shows - is that they are able to have a good ending.

"Dexter" has made this painfully clear.

Ozymandias it is, it wil live up to me for decades, such a good script.
I'll call out Silicon Valley as having a great finale too. I still watch the final documentary every now and then. one of the greatest satires I will probably ever see.
True, silicon valley had a great finale but kinda rushed.
It probably felt rushed because of the rinse/repeat of all preceding seasons (group experiences success only to have it dissolve before their very eyes)
(comment deleted)
I'm largely with you on HP. Most impressive was how JKR was able to keep Snape's loyal/evil question unresolved to the very end and still come up with a plausible explanation for it all. Rereading the whole series shows little hints along the way. It was deftly done.

It was a great time, having midnight release parties for a book!

It isn't really a true finale in the same way as those two examples, but I would throw out Infinity War and End Game as a joint example. The Marvel Cinematic Universe was able to successfully put a capstone on a cinematic project on the scale that had never even been attempted before. It was impressive enough to end a single story like Harry Potter in a satisfying way. The MCU was able to do the same for a wide variety of stories, dozens of characters, and over twenty movies.

Also it doesn't hurt the MCU's legacy that there is the obvious comparison with Game of Thrones that magnificently failed a very similar task the exact weekend that End Game came out.

I really liked Infinity War and have re-watched it a couple of times.

I watched End Game in the theatre and have not seen it again since. I really didn't enjoy the whole "goofy time travel" aspect, and re-visiting all the prior movies/events.

> I really didn't enjoy the whole "goofy time travel" aspect, and re-visiting all the prior movies/events.

It is certainly more comic-booky than some of the other MCU movies and the acceptance of that will vary from person to person. It also isn't a completely unique concept. They basically stole it from Back To The Future 2 which was also a big hit.

It's really incredible just how well Endgame stuck the landing, but the whole MCU is impressive. Even the worst films of the MCU are still totally watchable, just forgettable. And comic movies are really easy to get wrong, that same decade of MCU movies overlapped with both Andrew Garfield Spiderman movies, and a smattering of forgettable or outright bad DC comics movies.

That Rise of Skywalker and the final season of Game of Thrones came out in the same year helps to contrast how much most things don't stick the landing.

Surprised to see Harry Potter discussion on HN. I thought it is a book series for Kids and Teens. Do Adults (30+ age) find it interesting too?
Well. I was 10-12 when Harry Potter was released and it’s been 20 or so years...
2007 was thirteen years ago, Gordon. Have the Men in Black stolen time from you again?

Someone who was a teenager when it came out could easily be in their thirties now. So could someone who started in on the series when they were a kid, and kept up with it as they grew.

The Mandalorian Season 2 Last Episode: the best ending to a season finale ever! Totally lived up to the Hype!
> Breaking Bad last season

I actually thought BB went downhill and quit mid-way through the last season, but I understand I'm in the minority.

I'm with ya. While season 5 had some phenomenal individual scenes (like "tread lightly"), it didn't land with me as a whole in the way the earlier seasons did. The finale of season 4 is to me, with the haunting "I won" line, is the ultimate ending in my mind.
100% The first four seasons were great, with a ton of character development. The last season was incredibly rushed, and felt like they went from $0 to $millions overnight, and then introduced (annoying) characters and fell into quick traps. It was super frustrating to me.
I would add Lord of The Rings, but it turns out that industrious old prof turned the whole trilogy out in one shot. It was his publisher who released it in stages. Interestingly he had a hard time convincing someone to print it at all:

> A dispute with his publisher, George Allen & Unwin, led to his offering the work to William Collins in 1950. Tolkien intended The Silmarillion (itself largely unrevised at this point) to be published along with The Lord of the Rings, but Allen & Unwin were unwilling to do this. After Milton Waldman, his contact at Collins, expressed the belief that The Lord of the Rings itself "urgently wanted cutting", Tolkien eventually demanded that they publish the book in 1952. Collins did not; and so Tolkien wrote to Allen and Unwin, saying, "I would gladly consider the publication of any part of the stuff", fearing his work would never see the light of day.

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lord_of_the_Rings#Receptio...

Real tv fans have come to accept that the last season of The Wire and the last episode of Breaking Bad are pretty blah. We just shake our head and move on.
The OA, season 2.
I think it was even more divisive than the first season. I found a lot of people who loved the first season weren't sold on the second. I wouldn't expect it to go down well with the HN audience.
It was just hard to start the 2nd season. But the ending was wild.
I enjoyed both seasons, even though they were quite different. I hope they make a 3rd one.
I hope the cancellation was a marketing gimmick. I love it so much!
I loved the end to the second season and while there are so many questions I'd love to see answered, I felt like it also made for good series finale.
Computers, the Internet, 3D Computer Graphics - all exceeded their hype.
I saw contrarian opinions, but I believe Avengers: End Game pretty much delivered the insane hype cultivated for 10 years.
People went absolutely bananas in the theater during the final battle.
The final battle was great. One small thing that I wish they did better, was not to butcher the African language that they used. Whenever they spoke, many of us cringed. Small thing though, Chadwick still won our hearts.
Perhaps dumb of me but I never realized they were using an actual language. I presumed it was a made up language based on how certain African languages can sound.
It was mostly Xhosa. The actor who played T'Chaka speaks it and coached the cast during Black Panther and Civil War. Guess he wasn't around for the last two.
Not for me. Too much quantum time travel hand-waving just magically solving problems.
Actually, I thought this was the clever part. If you pay attention, they created a lot of other problems as a side effect.

It wraps up all the existing plots, and introduces new ones. There's a lot of hints on what went wrong with time travel, and if you read up on Marvel lore, there are plenty of villains who are able to maneuver time travel better than the heroes.

And it created a wonderful narrative device to revisit scenes and references from several other filmes. Marvel movies never positioned themselves to be hard scifi.
Imagine being upset about quantum time travel when the main characters are a Norse God of Thunder, a man that got bitten by a radioactive spider, a lab created super soldier and the main villain is some demi god alien with reality warping powers derived from some rocks in a gold glove...
Scifi is much more satisfying when it sets up a fantastical world/premises and then keeps an internal consistency as the narrative develops. It’s far less satisfying to force the use of fantastical elements as a crutch for a weak narrative.
Exactly. Introducing new things out of nowhere that just happen to be exactly what the characters need right then is poor writing IMHO. It breaks my suspension of disbelief, pulls me out of the story, and makes it much harder to enjoy.
But Marvel is a comic book universe not sci-fi.
Does that distinction change the point that I’m making?
Sure, but in the end of the day it’s a super hero movie. A certain degree of hand-waving is allowed.
Agreed

Also I was so looking forward to how they were gonna manage to track down antman

Then it’s a rat ex machina

I second this. With so many movies in the epic, they'll still be fun to watch 30 years from now.

Vision really disappointed in the penultimate. I think his character was hyped up a lot in Age of Ultron. Became disappointing seeing him go so easily.

Older Thanos was a really well-thought and played villain. One which many people got to identify with (based on his goals in the movie). Captain America delivered when he proved worthy. I think Captain Marvel was an arrogant addition that needed to fill in pieces to the story, like how Stark and Nebula get saved.

It's going to be a classic series in the decades to come. Marvel delivered.

> Vision really disappointed in the penultimate. I think his character was hyped up a lot in Age of Ultron. Became disappointing seeing him go so easily.

To be fair most overpowered characters where nerfed in Endgame. eg. Fat Thor, Dr. Strange aside of the battle containing a flood, Captain Marvel arriving last minute and being knocked out immediately, Hulk as Prof. Hulk. The stakes can't be that high if all superheroes are at their full performance.

I missed a Hulk as strong as in the comics. I heard that they audience tested Hulk busting out of the Hulk-buster armor that Bruce Banner was using, but it didn’t test well.
Odd, because that sounds extremely epic.
I dunno. It was just hours and hours of violence. How long can you watch a bunch of people flying around and punching each other? I found it very boring.
It was good but too much deux ex machina with Captain Marvel.