Ask HN: Please share your experience teaching your kids to program

295 points by lmilcin ↗ HN
Hi HN!

My son recently turned 7yo and I have successfully got him interested in programming. We started about half a year ago playing Minecraft and building more and more complicated automated machines. Recently I have added some robots that can be programmed in Scratch and now we have also started writing some simple games in Scratch.

I am not just trying to teach him programming but also show that with a bit of organization and working little bit each day you can achieve pretty huge results. So we created a very simple version of a game. I have then created a document where we are maintaining a listing of functionality we want to add. We then take them one by one, discuss how it can be added to the game and then tick off once it is done.

For Christmas he asked for some programming books ("how to make complicated Minecraft machines, how to write complicated commands and how to make mods").

We plan to do some more complicated robots and also make our own fun mods for Minecraft (as soon as I figure out how to hook up Scratch to recent version of it).

I am trying to not spend too much time on any given day (about 1,5h every day currently) so that ends up still wanting to do more.

I am also doing large part of coding myself and we switch who sits by the editor when he says he knows how to do something. I am trying to keep him enthusiastic by showing constant progress which I think is more important than that he actually does everything by himself.

I have 20 years of development experience so generally programming is not an issue for me.

Please, share your experiences, things that you have tested with your kids that did or did not work. Any tips you have personally tested.

239 comments

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Each of my children started coding through Minecraft and Scratch, so I think that is a good path. I tend to let them pursue (or not) their own interests so I just make resources available to them.

It's worth emphasizing to your child the distinction between 'technology exposure' tutorials, and creative work as children tend to care more about making stuff and can find some tutorials a bit tedious. Luckily there are some high quality tutorials out there now, the mid-range and lower quality tutorials will just frustrate them.

Related to that, I would advise you to not let them enroll in any 'technology' classes in school as that will kill their interest since the educators will likely be underwhelming.

Also, at a certain age, if you give them too much attention for their interests they will stop pursuing it, so enjoy the next few years :)

(comment deleted)
Can you provide links of some of the high quality tutorials you have found?
Arduino Starter Kit is very good. CodeHS is also good but expensive for families as they tend to sell to schools.

YouTube is also a good resource for some things. We haven't found any good programming books yet although they did enjoy the 'Lauren Ipsum' book.

Electronics is my hobby and I am fortunate to have decently equipped electronics lab all with a dedicated desk.

So I was pretty worried when he came asking to get him signed up for a robotics class (3h every Saturday for couple of months).

I already have some ideas how I want to introduce him to robotics but I am not going to intervene here. Just made sure he knows he can always come back and tell me he is no longer interested in the classes and we will just cut it.

As to creative work, I figured out already it is better if I do most of figuring out how to solve some problems (and let him solve just enough to not get bored with it) and he is spending time figuring out what kind of features we want in the games, for example.

We then discuss what is and what is not feasible and how things can be working and I still try to make sure he understands how the program works.

I know he understands at least some of it because he can take educated guesses at how to modify the program to change it to do what he wants.

This seems to be really fun for him so I plan for it to stay that way for some time.

I'm not close to being a father, but I can provide the experience of having learned not that long ago

At first my dad put me a bit on CodeAcademy [0] which taught me tons of basics but didn't really get me hooked.

What really got me into coding was by thinking of a way I could use it to build something related to my interests or that would be useful for me.

That seems to be what you're doing with the games by linking it to something he's interested in so that's nice.

It can really be anything though, and you should try to show him the enormous area of things he can do with coding.

In my case I wanted to do my english homework faster, so I tried building a very simplistic program that could find literary devices (metaphors, similes, alliteration) etc... in the literature texts I had to study.

Also you should make sure you don't force it and that the passion and interest comes from him, which seems to be the case with the way he asked for books about coding.

[0]: https://www.codecademy.com/

Thanks for you point of view.

I pretty much figured out not forcing anything is rule #0 for this project. I would rather be showing how we can have even more fun using programming.

The scratch game we are working on has Minecraft graphics and sounds on it and some of the rules derived from Minecraft. Simple arcade game but suddenly much more interesting because it has Minecraft element to it.

And instead of trying to force him to solve the problems I give him about 2s before I suggest the answer to the problem. I would rather want to spend time showing he can think of anything he wants and we can make it work (well... most of time).

Kind of different but I started learning programming while in primary school. I mostly messed around trying to learn how to make games in Unity. I didn't actually learn a whole lot of programming this way but it probably improved my interest in the subject and then I eventually discovered code academy which actually taught me how to program.

In between unity and codeacademy I tried a bunch of books but none of them really got me to understand what was happening so I didn't learn much from them.

Your kid is 7. I'm pretty sure hat I was eating dirt when I was 7. If he has showed you he's interested in programming then go ahead, but make sure you're not projecting your own interests onto your kid. It'll lead to resentment in 7 or 8 years.
1.5 hours a day seems like an immense amount of time for that age, but if the kid is pushing for it, good for them both.
Kids have a different relationship with time. As a kid who was intrinsically interested in programming, 1.5 hours was a joke and a non-starter. I didn't really feel comfortable doing any coding until I could secure 2-3 hours of time for it, and I would easily spend 8+ hours on the rare days when my parents were otherwise engaged and didn't call me away to do other things.
At age seven? Again, if the kid is up for it then great, but I think most kids that age have a hard time committing that amount of time to any single activity.
It's not commitment if it's voluntary play.
My 7 years olds will spend 1.5 hours minimum playing roblox and minecraft. So... I think designing and building a game with them is a great idea!
Fair point. I guess I wasn't much older than seven when I began my Nintendo addiction.
As a counterpoint, I started programming on my own at 7 with no guidance. Mainly because my IBM PC booted into a BASIC window if you didn't put the DOS disk in. I asked my mom to get my some magazines from the library so I could copy the games in them.

So it's not totally odd for a 7 year old (or I was odd, which is quite possible).

I started coding when I was 12, which itself was strange. I attended a top 10 engineering program and around half of the cs students came in with 0 programming experience. There's no rush. Let kids be kids, if they want to code great, just don't force it. And don't be upset when they burn out after 1.5 hours of extra work a day.
I started programming when I was 19, because that's when I got a computer (more projection) but in any case hard to not project onto your own kids. I think.
> I started programming on my own at 7... Mainly because my IBM PC booted into a BASIC window if

Same here!

Getting started in programming seems so much more daunting these days.

I also started about that age. At least in the 70’s I think it was a normal age to expose kids to computers if the family was so inclined, and back then Programming was the only thing you could do with such a gadget so that’s what we did.

Ok, I was also competing with my brother who was 10, but still: didn’t feel unusual at all.

That's not a counterpoint, that's just reinforcing their point. It's a good idea to open up a child to as many early experiences as possible, but don't project your interests on them. They'll find out what they like on their own.
They like fortnite!

My wife wishes my son wasn't so into gaming. I'm like, just push him to do gaming more, force him to game, then he will get into watercoloring.

The 7 yo's interest here were the games though, not so much the programming, right?

PC games have been the gateway drug for a huge number of programmers.

I think it works in at least a few ways:

1. You discover the amazing power and value of computers, they're not just boring work devices.

2. You learn that other people made the games by writing code, and that anyone can do it if they want to.

3. You end up making your own games and/or get bored of games and want to see what else the computer can do that is also intersting.

> want to see what else the computer can do that is also intersting (sic).

God, so much this!

Yeah. I did the same thing. I started hacking on the TRS-80 when I was 6 and IBM PC BASIC a couple of years later. Mainly because it was “just there” when you turned the computer on.

When my kid was 6 he had no attention span or desire to learn so I didn’t push it. Now he’s 9 and is asking questions.

I found that the best way to engage him is the old DOS game ZZT. It has a simple but complete OO language. And since you’re programming sprites, the notion of what an object is makes sense.

I taught myself OO with ZZT and I’m hopeful that it’ll click with him too.

Plus, it runs on the beat up laptop I let him use.

Same for me... 2nd grade, a colleague of my dad saw I liked playing on the computer and gave me some old BASIC programming books. I distinctly remember reading about PRINT and running to my mom and dad to tell them I could make the computer output something.

This was in 1991 or so, and the books were from 1978..... I had no idea even where to TYPE the stuff I was learning into. My dad’s friend came over and gave me Qbasic. 30 years later, I still love to code.

>If he has showed you he's interested in programming then go ahead,

>As a counterpoint, I started programming on my own at 7 with no guidance.

To nitpick, that's not really a counterpoint. Parent comment already allowed for the possibility that OP's 7yr old is independently interested in programming. If a child develops that interest of their own volition, with no pressure or leading from the parents, then by all means support and cultivate it. It's only a problem when the parents try to force the child in that direction before the child has developed their own interest first.

Can you expand some on copying games from magazines?
During the previous century of human civilization, computer games were primitive enough that their entire codebase would fit into a few pages of a magazine. You could play the game by manually retyping the codebase into a text editor.
This is how I learnt loads of great magazines in the 80's in the UK with code in, you spent hours typing it in. It didn't work and you fixed it (that's how I learnt to debug!). The next week the corrections were usually published, good times.
Exactly the same for me, I reckon a lot of 80s kids in the UK who had the right amount of attention span to do it were the same. I remember trying to input the massive list of hex for Tim Follin's 3 channel sound routine that I somehow managed to mistype a part of AND mistype the checksum so that it validated! Cue instant crash every time and disassembling was beyond me at that point.

In the 90s I got an Amiga and discovered the demoscene (basically showing off as mentioned in another comment).

Fast forward another decade and bored at my parents after finishing Uni I dragged my Speccy out of storage and managed to get the Tim Follin music routine running! And found an assembler and did some Z80 assembler demo effects for the lulz.

As you said: good times.

The best thing we can do for our children right now is keep them AWAY FROM SCREENS!
I spent a lot of time thinking about this.

In the end, I would rather be able to influence what my kids are using the screens for than introduce them to screens at a point in their life where I will have no say about what they are doing.

Keep in mind that there is a colossal difference between a screen that boots into a basic interpreter (BBC/Atari/Amiga style) and a screen that boots into iOS/android/youtube/bubblepop-whatever-the-current-attention-grabby-brain-dead-game-of-the-moment-is

If my kid is interested in the former I would not stop them, because it's an effective tool to learn about thinking, just like other toys... but the later I'm essentially treating as soft drugs, they ain't using that shit until they are an adult.

Is TV a drug too then?

Just like alcohol, I think there’s nothing unacceptably wrong with it in moderation.

Yes, absolutely.

“Moderation” is a cope used by addicts.

“Complete abstinence is easier than perfect moderation.”
Are we back in 1990?

Internet and computers are a critical part of everyday's life and will probably grow even more in the future. Childrens should definitely have screens and learn how to use it safely and smartly.

When my parents limited my video-game and television time during my teenagerhood (because it "makes you idiot/violent/whatever") it made my life worse, not better. Not being able to talk about the last video-game, movie or event, I had no idea what people were talking about most of the time.

I agree completely. I don’t understand the recent trend to believe that we need to get kids into software engineering as soon as they pop out of the birth canal. My friend is an accountant. If he asked me for advice on how to make spreadsheets more fun for his kid I’d think he had something against his kid. In the words of Pink Floyd “Hey! Nerds! Leave them kids alone!”
> I don’t understand the recent trend

You are mistaken about that "recent" part. Parents have always wanted their kids to go to best schools and learn for well paying, prestige jobs. It's just that what is well paying has changed.

Why wouldn't I want my kids to be interested in something that will get them good start in life, that could be groundwork for their future careers ASSUMING it is fun for them and they are doing this out of their own volition?

That would teach them you can have fun doing science or technology rather than treating is as a necessary evil?

> Parents have always wanted their kids to go to best schools

Parents haven't even always wanted their kids to go to school.

> Parents haven't even always been able to send their kids to school.

FTFY

No worries, you seem to be doing fine.

I would justs try, not to put too much pressure on him (or you) to make progress with your project, when he wants to do other things. And in fact, don't forget to motivate him to do other things, like play outside with friends in the actual dirt. Or with you. That is very important for his motoric, social and immune skills, too. In general, just being a kid. With not too much responsibilities and just being able to play freely. 1.5 h of serious work and learning every day do sound a bit much, if that means, it is cut from the outside time with you.

You can also combine being outside with the project, by having pen and paper around to discuss and write things that come to mind ...

Oh - and of course: have you considered Lego Mindstorms? I had great success with it, teaching nephews the basic of robotics. With something they can touch. And the ability to work with their hands and minds, as this involves also designing of the chassis and the arragnement of sensors, etc. In general, LEGO is very accessible. So I would start with that, before turning into a more serious base of actual robots.

> Oh - and of course: have you considered Lego Mindstorms?

Got 51515 from Santa:)

Oh, there is a new generation out, it seems, looks good. I used the very first version of Mindstorms .. have fun with it :)
No offence to you. If your kids show a genuine interest then fostering that interest makes sense of course. It could be programming or it could be tennis, if they show an interest then go for it. I guess I’m just sick of seeing so much marketing around ‘code-for-kids’ classes and products and all that faff.
Actually making accounting fun for kids is also a good idea and should be encouraged.
Well you could say that about any vocation.
Maybe. But accounting, or at least grasping personal finance, is a practical gift in a way that many others aren't at an introductory level. For example if you only want to be a manager at McDonald's you have to learn the most basic of accounting tasks.
“Accounting” and “personal finance” and “spreadsheets” are three very different things that seem to have been used as if they were interchangeable in the subthread beginning with dave_sid’s hypothetical about an accountant asking about making spreadsheets more fun for kids.
They're very related, though. Kind of like "cooking", "personal nutrition" and "kitchen utensils".
Honestly, a small amount of programming knowledge would make a lot of jobs better
Agree: I followed my Dad around the farm for hours when I was a kid.

And yesterday I completed the first part of my prototype "gaming couch" and made sure those of my kids who cared could see how I did it.

Sure. The basics of a lot of vocations is something that is very useful to be able to do for yourself. A bit of plumbing, a bit of carpentry, a bit of cooking, a bit of cleaning, a bit of accounting, a bit of public speaking, etc. Pretty much the 101 of being an adult.

Or put another way, a skill or service being a vocation just means it's useful enough for enough people, so that society can support it functioning as a distinct job (or set of jobs). The more useful it is, the more demand there is for that job - but that also means the more useful it is to know the basics yourself. A random Joe or Jane doesn't really need to know how to x-ray stuff to find material defects, but they sure as hell will benefit from knowing how to wash their own clothes, fix their own faucets, balance their own books, ... and how to automate this and that in their use of computers.

Seeing as accounting is on its way to being mostly automated in the coming decades, this is not good advice.
Yeah bullshit programming classes https://www.whitehatjr.com/, where they promise that your kid will become the next Gates/Zuck. Have your kids go outside, let them indulge in free play, explore. We're destroying a generation with this nonsense
Agree. Although “destroying” is maybe a little strong a word. I’d say we’re more just irritating them.
To be fair, software engineering connects better to the interests of STEM-ish kids (video games, robotics, electronics) than spreadsheets ever could.
Having been a STEMish kid that only got into spreadsheets later than programming because my families first computers all came with BASIC but it wasn't until the third that I also had Visicalc, I'm not sure that spreadsheets really have that much less appeal than programming, presented in the right context. Even moreso with modern spreadsheets, where the barrier between spreadsheets and accessible programming tools is low, so using programming with spreadsheets is doable.
"video games, robotics, electronics" is a rather tech-sided perspective of "STEM".

Spreadsheets are great for maths, planning projects, tracking experiments/collecting data, ... which I'd also all attribute to things "STEM-ish kids" might do.

Really? My earliest memories of Excel are from third grade and long before I started programming. Calculations for electronics and min-maxing video games are perfect applications of spreadsheets.

Spreadsheets are a great visual way of programming up to a certain point.

Depends on video game and the parts of spreadsheets.

For an extreme example, Eve Online is a game that makes kids do feats in spreadsheets that set them up straight for careers in accounting and supply chain management.

But less extreme: if your game exposes numbers, spreadsheets are useful to play with them. If I knew more about Excel when I was 13, I'd probably retype unit stats from StarCraft into it and do the maths that I ended up doing in my head. Spreadsheets have plotting functions, which are a fun thing to play with. Also tracking my own magazines & CDs is something I remember doing as a kid - entirely doable in Excel, though in my case, this was my first exposure to Access and RDBMSes in general.

Also worth noting that a proper spreadsheet like Excel is in itself a functional reactive programming REPL. FRP is what you do when you play with formulas.

My kids LOVE making spreadsheets. They use it to track points in various competitions and games and stuff like that. The script is actually a good entry point into programming too (simple stuff like SUM and AVERAGE, and constants like $A$1 or whatever).
While there's good things for a kid to learn from spreadsheets, it might also do harm because it's so dissimilar to "the real thing".

It's like when students learn MatLab. While much closer to regular software engineering than spreadsheets, it is still different enough for all the wrong basic concepts to sneak in and manifest. Switching to a classic programming language afterwards might actually be harder that way (not only learn all the new stuff, but unlearn/unlink the old stuff).

I also loved making spreadsheets as a kid. I remember I'd get books about dinosaurs and add information about them to a sheet - latin name, size, height, etc. IIRC my dad accidentally deleted the file at some point, or it got lost somehow.
We do it with maths and languages. Why not programming? It is just another tool exactly like math and language.
Do many people grow up with a love of math due to this common practice, though? I would have thought the opposite.
That's more of a problem with the school system, which force-feeds maths (and other subjects, most of them hated just as much) into kids at a pre-set pace, with no regard for quality or making it interesting for the children. Which is why I'm also worried that including coding in the basic school curriculum is only going to make people grow to hate it.
That's a problem with schooling not subjects. Industrial revolution school systems don't fit the 21st century
The irony of this statement is that only someone with strong memories of his or her parents projecting their interests and him or her and later resenting the effects thereof would project a fear like this on total strangers on the internet.
Well OP is an adult and not my child.
Ah, interesting misread (this is why I love forums like this). What I was saying was you seem to be reflecting on your childhood and the resentments thereof (a somewhat universal exercise). But your reply was to OP (an adult who thinks he or she can get their kid hooked on programming). However, your reply was a projection of your own resentment of your childhood. Therein lies the irony.
I’m already projecting my own interests opinion on my child by virtue of what I choose to give him for his birthday, or allow him to do in general though.

I don’t think this is something you can (or should, it’s basically the definition of parenting) avoid as a parent.

And beyond environment, it's likely (but not certain) that your child's genetics predispose them to enjoy programming, if you do.

From John Carmack Twitter's feed, it sounds like his kid is well on his way to being a great programmer, which should surprise no one.

While I agree, it is equally important to get them a diverse set of experiences.

Some people grow up never knowing they have some inclinations and or talents.

My childhood had a ton of this stuff. I saw and did a lot! And peers who did not have that diversity sometimes found out later.

While it is good to eventually know, earlier is often, but not always better.

What I did was a balance. And given my son is in meth hell, am doing again with my granddaughter.

That balance was:

Take them through things I hope they have an interest in. I had some familiarity and real skill in many of these. I brought in other people where I felt I was not the right person.

Take them through some rando things! And frankly, I lived vicariously in this way. Very highly recommended. They may benefit and so may you! Sports was one area where I sucked as a kid, but was able to lean and excel with them as an adult. Neat! Major bonding and memories happen this way. It is kind of terrible sometimes too. (Hold that thought)

And finally, take them through things they are interested in, ask for.

Now, the terrible experiences?

All good, and here is why:

Regardless of how we want to shape our kids, they are their own person. Some are strong in all this. I was as a kid, and after major conflict with parents, I was very lucky to have others in my life who understood how people work.

Self discovery happens when we have experiences. How we respond, what piques our interest, latent talents, skills, understanding all present themselves during experiences.

Nobody knows who they are, until they have opportunity to respond and interact. The more diverse the body of opportunity is, the better of a look we have at who we are.

This all moved me as a young person, and as a parent too:

I see our job as making sure the basics get done. Competent, well rounded, civic minded, people. When the basics are there, one has all the tools needed to learn how to learn, get along with others, follow instructions and all that basic, important stuff.

And our job is to seek those diverse experiences, observe, discuss all that with kids and tease out the good stuff! Most importantly, nobody knows what that stuff actually is! Or maybe we do, to a degree, by inference or various signs. Fine. But I assure you it is nowhere near inclusive enough.

Some molding and shaping can and should happen, but some of the canvas gets filled in and we can either weave that into the potential person we are raising, or bodge over it, hoping it all works out.

Where they are aware, crave things, themselves looking to contribute to maximizing who they are, parents may see themselves shut out, less relevant when their expectations and efforts do not align well with who their kids are.

And in some ways, the die is cast. In other ways it takes shape, and we can plant seeds, and have some influence.

My 0.2 having raised very different kids.

Good luck. At a minimum, give a shit, respect who they are, try hard to get them through to quality adults and it is hard to go wrong. Just know, despite your efforts, they may be very different people than you may expect or hope for.

Celebrate that. People are amazing. Try to amplify the good.

He says his kid asked for programming books. Doesn't seem like it's being forced to me. Could it be that maybe, just maybe, both father and son enjoy programming?
You may be right, but I wanted to share an anecdote anyway.

When I was 8 years old, my dad offered to buy me a go-kart. I think he was concerned I spent too much time indoors, and wanted surprise me with an exciting idea. I knew that my dad didn't have a lot of money, and I also knew he'd be angry if he bought the go-kart and I never used it, so I lied and said I didn't want one.

My point is that there's often more going on inside children's brains than we realize, even at a young age. The kid could be asking for that present because he thinks it will make his father happy, for example. Just something to think about.

Meh. My kid will leave the house able to program at the pro level. If they resentment me and open a bar more power to them. If the bar fails and they need to program to make ends meet - great. If I was a plumber, my kids would leave my house a certified plumber. If they want to be a lawyer instead - more power to them. Either way my kids leave with a skill.
What ever you do, give your kid a skill. Let them hate you for it.
Huh. I was going to object but I think you're right. The problems I know with parents forcing kids to do X when they wanted to do Y came from a) pushing X way too far (e.g. forcing a particular university degree), b) refusing to let the kid explore Y when they express interest for it, and c) resenting the kid for choosing Y over X.

So as long as one isn't forcing a skill exclusively, and isn't resentful when the skill doesn't stick, I'd say this is a wise approach.

If they as teenagers resent you for teaching them programming then the problem is not that you have taught them too much, the problem is that you haven't taught them the harsh reality of human life. We programmers live especially privileged lives and it's important to not let your kids fall into the misapprehension that the privilege we, and by extension they, enjoy is somehow normal or expected.
I cant get my kids to tidy their rooms so no chance teaching them to code
Learning to code is way easier than learning to tidy one's room. Many people struggle with the latter their whole life.
I am not a parent but I am a product of parents. I have friends that were pushed to learn a musical instrument. They hated being pushed as a kid but as an adult they are so happy to have been pushed. My father was a musician but his POV was unless I showed an interest he didn't push. I'm jealous of those who got pushed.

Similarly I have American friends that speak a 2nd language because their parents forced them to go to language school on the weekends. As kids they hated not being able to go play on Saturdays like their friends but as adults the love speaking the 2nd language. Conversely I have a friend who's parents sent him to language school but around 11 or 12yrs old he complained enough they let him stop. He still regrets it to this day.

I have no clue where the balance is but I don't believe it's 100% only do it if the kids want to side of the meter.

Another data point, one of my friend plays guitar, was part of a few bands. He was pushed by his parents to learn an instrument. He has complained multiple times about what a waste guitar playing been. He has spent his twenties chasing dream of making it as musician.

Now he has finally given up on his rock star dreams and working in his career but he is far behind his peers. His family struggles financially right now. He wishes that he was never into music and was focused on more productive stuff. He thinks his parents wanted him to play an instrument because they wanted him to impress their friends.

So the lesson is children will find any excuse to complain about their parents.

I honestly believe that programming should be considered a vital skill on par with reading and writing. I'm not saying everybody needs to be able to solve LeetCode or build production ready apps, but anybody who works with a computer could benefit from being able to do a little scripting. Programming is a skill that can be a foundation for thousands of different hobbies.

Why do most adults know how to read and do basic math? Because we consider these to the important enough to teach them to children whether they are interested or not. Obviously the thing that differentiates good teachers from bad is the ability to make learning interesting. So in the case of reading, we have books specially written for children of all ages.

Programming is a much younger subject than reading, and it's changed a lot in the last few decades. I am happy to provide my kids with the tools I had available, but honestly I never got good enough at BASIC to build anything useful and LOGO was fun but again, useless. Scratch and other modern kid-focused languages are much better for the job.

Sure, but are 7 year olds ready? As this thread has shown some clearly are, but in my experience he vast majority are not. Why not wait until middle school instead of pushing them toward something they aren't ready for. It would be like teaching an 11 year old calculus.
Are they ready for what? I had no problem instructing a turtle around to draw a line on a screen with Logo or building a number guessing game. Nobody is talking about teaching 7 year olds Haskell.

To go with your calculus example, we don't teach 11 year olds calculus, but we do teach them things that they will need to know later in order to do calculus. We expect them to practice those skills again and again until they are easy.

You expose your kids to things, and hope they'll like some of them. That's just how it works. You just have to hope that they end up liking some of those things you've exposed them to, or at least gaining enough from them that was worthwhile. I know I got dropped off at soccer class plenty of times, even though I fucking hate soccer

I tried to read the K&R C book when I was 9. It went over my head hard. I tried again at 13 and something started to stick.

The brain evolves really quickly at that age, at 7 you're still trying to learn not to eat that dog poop you found in your garden.

The most success i've had with my 8 year old is building games in Roblox and the LUA scripting that comes along with that. We also have written some MicroPython to drive a small rover. With kids, or my kids at least, you have to be able to show some tangible results quickly or else they get bored. ...kind of like dealing with your boss.

another thing that my 8 year old is really into that surprised me is networks. Explaining how networks work and how he can start a minecraft server for him and his brother to play but his school friends can't because of the "firewall" has him on the edge of his seat hah.

edit: i want to add that i don't bother with explaining programming concepts like object-oriented design or algorithms just very simple cause/effect. Then to simple if condition effect. I get excited and end up overcommunicating and then boring my kids, it's like trying to start a carbureted engine without flooding it. You have to do give them just enough info to get started and hope it catches.

Networking was what really got me to do a deep dive into technology. Circa 2002, I really really wanted to LAN Party with my neighbor across the street remotely but neither of our 802.11b routers could reach. We spent so much time reading about how to do this and we ended up building a pair of Pringles can antennas on WiFi extenders, and long ethernet cables running through our yards into our bedroom windows, which ended up working great.

Fun memories. Networks are cool.

> LUA

Not that it really matters that much, but just for future reference: Lua is a proper noun, not an acronym.

"You have to do give them just enough info to get started and hope it catches."

That's an important mantra, I think. If you cast the net wide enough, you'll find something they like, and want to follow... but it might not be programming.

Interesting! Networking is what really caught my attention as a young teenager. My personal epiphany moment early on was chatting on an AOL chatroom with someone in Japan when I was 10 and realizing what computers could actually do
https://appsbykids.org/ is a hastily thrown together site showing some of my work with kids.

I've been running volunteer computer clubs at schools my daughters attend, pre-covid anyway. I've also run a summer immersion program for basic software design principles using the Scratch language for Girls Who Code. We've played with Adafruit Circuit Playground dev boards, written a "choose your own adventure" engine with Python, and added pixel graphics to some simple Javascript games, where the kids drew animation frames in a barely functional editor I wrote.

The first thing I'd call out is that 7 is really young. 5th grade is the point where kids can start to "get it" beyond basic maze problem solving things (e.g., code.org's Minecraft puzzle - hop Alex around the creeper and into the house). Since you're a dev, and he's enthused about it already, he can probably flex those muscles a little early.

Beyond age, the complexity of what you're doing matters a lot. Kids want to see something get on the screen right away, and they want to make a code change that changes what it does. Building a program from scratch is a chore, and something as simple to us as nested if statements will throw them for a loop.

The most success I had was building a simple program without them, and letting them experiment with changing values. That may sound like cheating, but it gets the gears turning, and before too long they're able to follow along with making a broader logic change, and soon enough even following along with you adding a new feature.

I was in a classroom setting with a bunch of kids, and they tended to like being in small groups and comparing notes, or play each others games.

Sideways thinking is important. For example, the main draw of Circuit Playground is making the LEDs do things, but they also have an accelerometer. A good exercise was figuring out how to read the tilt position, and figure out which light was lowest, and light up just that one. Instant fidget spinner. Building on that, I threw them for a loop by using the same principle where the tilt was input to a computer program. Suddenly the thing they were programming before to flash lights was now a game controller.

Keep it fun, let him screw around too long on things he builds instead of learning software engineering at an "acceptable" rate. He can learn fast, but complexity will probably be a struggle, so growing slowly is just fine. Encourage him to explore concepts from different angles.

Hope that helps.

Yes, tinkering with existing program is really fun. I did this with his first ever project (which was a robot programmed in block language that is even simpler that Scratch) and made entire program for him, with him sitting by me and discussing how I am adding new steps to the program and what they are changing, each time running the program on the robot with another step implemented. Then he got his turn to have fun with the program.

We stopped with that robot after couple of sessions when he was able to program some functionality up to my specification. For example, there was no sensor that would say the arm was closed, so to preserve the worm drive I asked him to change all places in program where the arm is getting opened to instead close it first and then open for an exact amount of time so that it does not hit the limit, which he was able to do on the first try, which gave me confidence he more or less understands what the idea is.

Now, the games we do are getting a little bit complex (a lot of messages flying around), so what I do is basically write most of the code and shape the structure of the program and figure how do to some stuff so he doesn't get lost managing complexity. I make sure he understands what the things are doing and he modifies whatever he wants (and then we discuss what happened or how he can get what he wants).

I am now unsure whether I want to stick to some more complex projects or whether it is better to have more small but wide variety ones. For now what I plan to do is to throw a bunch of ideas and see which ones he is most excited about.

My girl first got interested when she was 5, when she was already a pretty solid MC Survival player, so I got her into Scratch to mod her MC creative world and automate some agents. From there she was more interested in making stand-alone little animations/games in Scratch itself, and now (almost 2 years later) is mostly obsessed with making objects in Blender and has started doing physical electronics using various kits.

I basically let her follow her own path, I show her how I do something then if she’s keen to try it I stick her in front of the keyboard and she does it herself with me verbally guiding (but never reaching over to take control, something I personally think is important).

She loves hanging out in my workshop and watching me prototype electronics or work on my own game dev or tinker on other hardware/software projects, and she knows at any time she can have a go (and she does, regularly).

Ah, how I wish I was game dev instead of working mostly on Java backends for large financial institutions (and actually spending most of the time in meetings).

I am pretty interested in the modding Minecraft with Scratch part. I have found some abandoned projects. Can you point me to what you have used that worked for you?

Happy it worked for your girl and little scared she started at 5. I have two boys, one is 7 and the other is 4. The younger one is inseparable from the older so I wonder how it is going to be different for him.

I have been thinking about who gets to actually program. For now I am happy that mixed routine where we regularly switch works for him (he seems to be happy and engaged) and so I think I will continue this way for some time before I experiment with it.

I see that the best results we got were when he actually himself figured some stuff and made it by himself. His first machine -- ugly chest to destroy unnecessary items with a noisy clock that runs constantly whether there are items or not -- is still occupying middle of main room of our hobbit hole but I don't think I will touch it, because he was so happy when he got it to work.

For what it’s worth, I’m not actually a game dev it’s just something I’ve been playing with in the last few years as a side hobby. My primary career is infosec/red team, something she’s not playing with (yet) but she’s already picked up a few cheeky habits.

My general rule with all this stuff is just to expose them to as many things as possible and if they show ANY hint of interest in something then give them support and unlimited resources towards exploring that topic. Even if it means I’m staying up all night learning some new sport/software/etc so I can give them a solid go at it.

This is what my dad did with me and I’ve grown to appreciate how instrumental that was in me finding my passions early and building both a career I love + passionate hobbies from it.

My father tried to introduce me to programing when I was 12, BASIC, but it didn't go well, nor did it go well when I tried to learn every subsequent language. Being ADHD I needed instant gratification with minimal effort, to pull me deeper in so I wouldn't bounce to the next thing. Programing was chaotic, hard to keep straight, and frustrating because my ego wouldn't let me say "hey, you don't have all the answers, let's go figure out what we're missing."

So my advice: Help him to understand that when an answer to a problem is not visible, it doesn't mean he's dumb, etc. It means he doesn't have the right puzzle piece of information, and needs to find it first. (i.e. a formula, code block, etc.) Be ok with not knowing the answer, and be ok that he will need to learn in order to apply knowledge (like puzzle pieces) to the problem.

I think it's a problem for a lot of kids that it's hard for them not to be instantly good at something. Learning patience is part of growing up and gaining experience.
BBC micro:bit V2 - Will be able to get tangible results very quickly.

Start with the simple stuff: https://microbit.org/projects/make-it-code-it/

I find games in scratch are complex and require too much programming knowledge to really get something interesting up and running. The micro:bit on the other hand can do interesting lights, sounds, etc with just the drag and drop of a few lines.

I didn't know micro:bit works with Scratch, thanks a lot!!!

I had plans to make some kind of board with STM32 that could be programmed with Scratch but maybe I will put that project off and use micro:bit instead.

No prob. I'm going through the same process as you at the moment, have been looking at all the options for a while. Micro:bit seems to be the best fit for young learners.
I have 2 kids 14 and 12. My 14 year old has started solving medium level leetcode problems (which I am happy about).

Talk to them often about code, technology etc.One thing that helped IMHO spending a lot of time in solving math problems (AOPS) , which made think through hard problems and had to grind through solutions which took time. My kids love Big Bang Theory and anything that is geeky. I talk to them about the latest things that are happening in tech like the recent hack and the malware.

I recently read this book https://www.amazon.com/But-How-Know-Principles-Computers-ebo... and sat and drew with my kids and,or , xor and nand gates.Building Mindcraft MOD can be another fun project.

Be patient and it helps a lot IMO.

Good luck :)

I have got my kids hooked on vim https://vim-adventures.com/
I used the gratis demo of that site to introduce a 7 year old to vi, and hoped I just might have been an accomplice to a world record when he successfully completed vimtutor afterwards. He now uses the skills to do his schoolwork in HedgeDoc (last week I taught him to make macros, which he uses for markdown headings and checklists).
I taught my 15 year old python programming over summer. We used the material provided by this course [1]. It worked out very well for us.

We took a little detour at one point and I taught her basic skills to navigate around Linux terminal. Files, directories, editors, basic operational stuff.

Then I took another little detour and showed her ropes on git and github.

Then we got back to the python course and now I encouraged her to push everything she practices on her github account which she has been doing since.

Now that the course is over, we have started working on a project that aims to manage personal income tax. I chose that project because it could start simple and can evolve to be as complex as you want it to be. However, ultimately it is all simple arithmetic. The project is going very well so far. We are discovering new things about taxation almost every single day.

We are at a stage where learning vim would really help her so we plan to take another detour next week and start with a vim tutorial until she gets comfortable.

[1] https://help.uis.cam.ac.uk/service/support/training/download...

On the one hand, taxes are boring.

On the other hand, pretty much everyone I know wishes they had learned more about how taxes work in high school beyond the very high-level concepts of progressive taxes....

That is what I figured when choosing tax as a project. She will learn programming but also doing tax which is going to be useful to her and perhaps others who will come in her contact over time. And who knows, if the tax project takes off, it could be a revenue generating side hustle for her.
My kid was playing Lightbot at 6yo. Most programming toys I've seen have similar mechanics. I put together a cardboard version myself to help him practice some concepts (e.g. procedures), with the difference that it uses actual directions (up, down, left, right) instead of the usual forward, turn left, turn right commands, which in my observation was more intuitive.

He didn't seem to take much more interest in programming after mastering that, but he did eventually take interest in chess. The reason is that we borrowed a bunch of chess books from the library and he would go read them whenever he was bored, and he would play with his grandpa to try to apply the tricks he was reading about. Point being that having self-study and tight feedback loops seem to help in acquiring proficiency in a skill.

Personally, after the most beginner level, I'd start to move away from using game development as a motivator for learning programming simply because after some threshold, the math requirements ramp up substantially (e.g. implementing jumping in a side-scroller requires middle school level math at a very bare minimum). In my own journey, I've found that web development (using only the most vanilla subset of technologies) was a relatively gentle way to get into programming. The syntax is relatively forgiving, the building blocks are high level enough to allow easy creation of interesting interactive things, the built-in tooling in browsers nowadays are amazing and the tight feedback loop is there.

YMMV

Had very good experience using Python as first programming language for 8-9 year-olds; professionally, I don't like it, though.

And even though I prefer it over Python as a language, I had disastrous results teaching Javascript to 12-14 year-olds for light browser games. My intent was to bring kids with signs of early stage addiction to mobiles "onto the other side", by looking at games professionally and with creativity (as much as I could, anyway). Turned out fiddling with async and rAF is really a bad fit for learning basics.

> We plan to do some more complicated robots and also make our own fun mods for Minecraft (as soon as I figure out how to hook up Scratch to recent version of it).

You can't quite hook up Scratch itself to Minecraft (not that I know of, at least), but if you want to use Minecraft as a backbone for this kind of education, you might be interested in Pneumaticcraft, which includes little programmable drones that are programmed using a simple mockup of scratch (https://www.curseforge.com/minecraft/mc-mods/pneumaticcraft-...) or ComputerCraft, which tries to emulate shell scripting and lua in particular (https://www.curseforge.com/minecraft/mc-mods/cc-tweaked). In the future, if you wanted to teach him Java, you could have him develop mods himself through the Spigot, Forge, or Fabric modding APIs.

There is a mod that allows running Scratch on Minecraft server but it was not ported beyond 1.8 or something. I plan to see how it works and maybe port it or do something like that for recent Minecraft version.

I like the idea of Pneumaticcraft. He already knows absolutely everything about Minecraft (can tell the version the map was generated in by looking at it). One Christmas wish was for Santa to help Mojang release 1.17 faster... So I am pretty confident he would like to be able to have some new game mechanics to play with.

My daughter (who just turned 4) seemed like she might like programming, so I started out having her "program" a stuffed walrus, by telling it whether to go forward, backward, left, or right to get to a piece of food. Her natural inclination was to point to where it should go, so I first taught her that the walrus doesn't understand pointing or the word "here", just the directions.

Then we started "programming each other" by telling each other where to go, and I introduced doing multiple steps at once (like "step forward 5 times").

My goal wasn't literally to teach her to program, but just to introduce that way of thinking, which is pretty different from how we normally think in day-to-day life.

She was excited about it, so I got her the Osmo programming kit for iPad. You program a little monster walking around, using physical, scratch-style code blocks. She's been excited about programming the monster every day, and is able to (sometimes) do some short programs of a couple blocks.

If she learns a bit more, my plan is to show her how to program a simple lego robot with scratch, like one that spins a flag when it sees something pink. I love that idea because with 2 lines of code you can make something really happen in the world, plus she'll be able to come up with new ideas for the robot on her own, and learn about the constraints, sensors, and eventually more basic programming logic.

I bought this for my 4yo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlnP-8SczF0

Sorry the vid is in Polish but I think you can get the idea.

It is a talking robot that does "missions" where you have to program it to go forward, backward or turn, take objects from the map, etc.

You reminded me of a robot I had as a kid in the early eighties. It had some rubber keys on the top (similar texture to the rubber buttons on a Sinclair Spectrum, but smaller). You could program it with a sequence of moves (IIRC forward, turn right, turn left, pause).

The robot you linked looks great, with the addition of the missions. But I'm not sure whether it's available in the US, so I ordered this one instead: https://www.amazon.com/Fisher-Price-Code-n-Learn-Kinderbot/d...

The Osmo is cool, it's playful and feedback is great.
For my daughter (she's now 7), I followed this sequence:

- Exact instructions challenge (from YouTube)

- LightBot app on Android

- Scratch with Harvey Mudd College's course on edX

Snap! has some nice features but the community aspects of Scratch are so much better that she's happy building games there.

Same as you, our goal was not to "learn programming", but just to have fun making things move with your ideas. Just creating rather than passively consuming something.

Because this "coding for kids" mania seems to have gone overboard, I collected links to all the resources I used in the form of a "syllabus" here: https://learnawesome.org/items/1c96e03a-ffff-4579-b69a-0387b...

Is this the YouTube video you mention above? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDA3_5982h8
Yes. This is basically teaching how to give instructions to a robot that does exactly what you tell it to - nothing more and nothing less! Recipes are nothing but simple algorithms including branches and loops, may be even procedures.
Somewhat related: At one point I introduced my kids to what I called the number-machine-game. It goes like this:

I ask my kids to say a number, and then I do something to that number and tell them the answer.

Their job is to figure out the calculation I do.

Examples:

- I add a number: they say 3, I say 8. They say 11, I say 16

- I multiply a number.

- I multiply by something and add something else.

- etc

If you want to drive them nuts you can count the letters of the number, i.e. four = f o u r = 4, five = f i v e = also 4, ten = t e n = 3 etc :-D

(I might have gotten the idea from HN, but the above is how I taught it.)

I remember one day in primary school a teacher had us play a game where we had to propose things to take on vacation. People would call out a suggestion, and the teacher would say yes or no.

The aim of the game was to figure out the rule. She said no to 'novel' and 'money', but yes to 'book' and 'currency'.

Spoiler: Is it the number of letters? That is, only an even-length string is permitted?
I've used the same before, I believe also inspired by a similar HN comment. I was delighted to find that it's actually been developed into a complete game as well[1]

However to add my 2c to the conversation how I introduced programming to my cousins and niblings was through baking! A recipe is just a program for a delicious outcome which helps a bit with motivation while also learning a related skill.

[1] https://www.cinqmarsmedia.com/devilscalculator/

Love the idea! I'll try that with my 4yo daughter this week, I think she'd love to tell me what to do :P
I got into programming at around middle-school age, with no particular guidance from my parents beyond general encouragement.

I have three kids and none of them are interested in programming.

It's fine to support and encourage something your kids are interested in, and to give them opportunities to try things and discover those interests. But be careful you're not pushing them into something just because you like it. Your kids are independent human beings and may be interested in very different things than you are, or than their siblings are.

I learned programming when I was 8 years old from books and experimenting

Mostly helpful was that I had a 386, QBASIC and GORILLA.BAS, but not much else. No games and no internet

I also learned from books (and no actual computer for many years).

But I don't think that's a good goal for today's world.

There is absolutely no way books are going to compete with shining rectangles so one must find a way to integrate new technology to get kids hooked on something more productive.

I'm in exactly the same boat, and doing very similar to you. My son is 11 and daughter 8. Both do Code.org and/or Scratch fairly regularly. Son wants to get into modding Minecraft, but honestly I'm a little annoyed with how shady and complicated that process is. Or maybe I'm just too old to "get it". I don't discourage him from it, but haven't been able to teach him that as much.

Son also recently bought with his own money a Arduino starter kid off amazon. You can get an arduino, LCD, servo, LEDs, etc. for 30-40$. We've taken it a step at a time and go through various concepts, etc. For example, I talked to him about 'rubber duck debugging' (ie explain the program to a rubber duck or plus toy line by line), semicolons, code blocks, etc. This has been great for learning real C and tinkering with electronics.

I plan to start them on basic web stuff on glitch.me sometime. That should let them build simple websites etc. for free.

Have you seen the book "Adventures in Minecraft [1]? Modding Minecraft with Python. I'm working through it with my 10 year old at the moment. Pretty good so far. Nothing "shady" (not sure what you meant by that) and not complicated.

[1] https://www.wiley.com/en-us/Adventures+in+Minecraft%2C+2nd+E...

Thanks will check it out. By shady I meant the sites filled with ads that you go to to download mods, and the mod installers that I worry about what else they might be installing on my machine. Am I doing it wrong?
Oh yeah, that. This is a book so you don't have a lot of that shady stuff. But you do need to download and install their server code so you can run a Minecraft 1.12 server on localhost. Seems safe and no malware.
I taught in a coderdojo for a while.

As a mentor; unless the kid wants to go, please don't come :)

So many uninterested kids from helicopter parents. Kids as young as 6 just absolutely clueless and learning nothing.

If you want your kid to program, just buy them an actual computer system with files and a terminal, not some ipad shit, and let them at it. If they code they code. If they don't, you can try teaching them when they're like 13-14 and actually have a bit of brain wattage to back up what you're throwing at them.

>> As a mentor; unless the kid wants to go, please don't come :)

This so much. There is no quicker way to turn them off of it permanently whereas they might just not be ready to come to it yet.

Alternatively, wait for the kid to be hungry for a snack then have her program an Arduino controlled can opener to open a can of beans. /s

Places where I didn't expect to see bean dad spicy takes
I taught one as well. Always felt horrible because I gave most of my time to the couple of kids who were naturally jazzed about it. It felt like I could have done more to inspire the other kids who didn't seem to care, but maybe I did more good helping the ones who did.
I didn't waste my time. Of all the kids that came one actually cared. We've kept it touch and I now consider him a friend. He just started comp sci in my country's most prodigious uni, which while it was obviously his own doing - I'm a little proud of :)

Then and now, I'm glad I focused on the ones that cared. The investment in them and subsequent payoff for them is extremely valuable. With the others, it wasn't even clear if you were doing more harm than good.

I was probably more cutthroat than most because I was the only mentor who showed up week after week, so I had to have strong boundaries.

I learned to program in middle school and I loved it, you couldn't tear me away from the school Commodore Pet.

My kid we played with scratch for a bit and she had fun making some games but it fizzled out after a few weeks. No real love. I gave up. Maybe I'll try again in a few years.

There are coding classes and they're all very popular but to me it seems pushy parents signing up their children, none of them seem to enjoy it.

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Unpopular opinion, but I am of the mind that my kid (now 8 yo) needs to get a full experience of learning with writing/drawing/reading on paper before I "shortcut" him to doing it on a computer. Same goes for self-entertainment.
I think this is important. A lot of programming classes or teaching focuses just on the tools, but not really on the goals of what you want to use those tools to do.

My daughter is really into Minecraft and has learned that there are mods out there. So, now there is something she actually wants to be able to DO. That's a big part of what drives programming motivation for kids.

Making a mod is a really good driver for learning development. That's how I got started. It's good that the goal is so unreachable at the start. There's an awful lot to learn and you need to boostrap yourself, somehow, into doing something remotely productive.

I never finished my mod, but I spent 2 years learning C++, Photoshop, 3DS Max, Worldcraft, and all manner of other tools on the way. It was great exposure and it never felt tedious because my goal wasn't learning how to program, it was learning how to make a homing missile, or a texture for my fort. :)

I wasn't really interested, at the time, in learning how to write a simple bank that could process transactions, or a task list.

6.5 year old. Cultivating an interest in electronic components through toy disassembly and repair (actually thinking about doing a video channel analyzing low end electronics for fun), no actual circuit design as yet. After achieving literacy and exposure to minecraft, currently having success with co-op puzzle platformers which require multi-step solutions to puzzles (Putty Pals, Koala Kids, Ibb and Obb, Shift Happens, etc.), Crypt of the Necrodancer (turn-based dance pad rhythm game requiring comprehension of algorithms), a short JRPG (A Short Hike) and in terms of actual programming a Steam robot programming game called SMIB. Lots of board games, currently Puerto Rico ("Age: 13+"). Also recommend Sleeping Queens (card game requiring creative deployment of simple equations). Endgame: Shenzhen IO.