I have a 65" Sony Bravia with Google TV and it's great as long as I reboot it once a week. If I don't do that, then audio eventually stops working when I change inputs, Spotify will hang, or it will keep telling me there's no video signal.
Fortunately, Sony made this easy - if you hold down the power button on the remote you get a restart option.
I agree. I have a TCL 4-Series with Android TV. I installed Google TV for "fun," assuming that I'd eventually get "upgraded" whether I liked it or not. I quite like having a unified watchlist (although Netflix has disappeared) and the recommendations are pretty good.
I doubt it, Android TV (before Google TV) doesn't require a Google account (but strongly urges you to log in) and I don't think they'd change that with the Google TV redesign.
Isn't that the whole point of Android TV? It's another revenue stream for Sony, right? If you read through the privacy statement it's clear that Sony is monetizing everything they possibly can.
You can opt-out and lose nothing, as far as I can tell. But IIRC, you do have to accept the privacy policy to apply updates, but then you can opt-out again after.
I don't think that's an option anymore, the last time I tried to create an account it required a phone number that it could verify. It didn't even allow me to use an office phone number, only a real mobile number.
I don't know if Google TV changed the rules, but Android TV can be used without a Google account. We have one Android TV connected to Google by choice (Sony) and one not connected to Google (Xiaomi).
Does Android TV have more than the de-facto standard Android 3-year support package, or will we have to throw our TVs in to the land-fill in a couple years?
Big news this year is Qualcomm is committing a whole extra year to security updates, so now you can keep using your car/tv/phone a whole 4 years! Oh boy!
Remember when we had that brief window, where phones had to come unlocked? And we had a surge of DIY folk making all kinds of neat Android distributions? Feels like such a far-off hard-to-imagine glimmering age to me now. Before the Republicans set about insuring the corporations had whatever rights they wanted, dismantling this basic consumer & ecological protection.
Depends on the manufacturer, in Sony's case I can see updates for 1-2 years on each model. It's one of the reasons I chose a 2020 model instead of a cheaper 2019 model, sadly.
I have an older LG TV (circa 2016 or so) which runs an older version of LG's WebOS. It has no ads, the TV's UI hasn't noticeably slowed. It's 4K. It's an excellent TV.
I catch myself thinking that I'll be in a conundrum when the TV eventually dies. It looks like new versions of LG's WebOS has ads every time you open it's 'dock'.
Yes, you can buy an AppleTV (or your preferred alternative) – but you'll always be scurrying to the TV's original remove for anything beyond on/off, or changing the volume. So you either keep two remotes around, or toss Apple's glass remote and use a universal remote.
Does it work? Sure. Is it elegant? Eh. How have you guys solved this?
>Does it work? Sure. Is it elegant? Eh. How have you guys solved this?
I don't do anything other than turn the TV off and on and change the volume, so the Apple TV remote (or any other remote programmed to work with the Apple TV remote) suffices.
I put a little adhesive remote holder I stuck on the back of the TV for the remote that came with the TV for the rare times I might need to change the input or something.
Each of those actions can be done via Audio Return Channel (ARC), and perhaps most/all of them via HDMI-CEC. About 50% of the time the Chromecast Google TV we just bought can adjust the tv's audio itself (unless we are casting to it, in which case it does nothing except pops up a notice to check settings, which we have thoroughly checked).
But there's still a lot that can not be done. I change my Samsung monitor's brightness, gamma, & "lean-back" view mode multiple times a week. On my projector I switch between "quiet" & normal mode, & adjust keystone & zoom depending on position.
It'd be awesome to de-interface the TV, to create machine-to-machine interfaces that let the TV be a "dumb" screen while still being able to fiddle it's knobs. We could definitely go middle-way by returning to the tv having an "on screen display" only, some menus for configuration, but I'd love to also expand the digital controllability of these things, such that Rokus & GTVs &c can integrate with, become a comprehensive modular hub/brain for controlling the TV.
Except ARC is horribly broken on, well, most systems. I can't count the amount of systems where a HDMI connection breaks in subtle ways because of the HDMI device in the neighbor HDMI input! Advice number one if you have ARC problems is to unplug the other devices. It is just insane how bad ARC is implemented.
The thing that's frustrating about webOS is that LG doesn't provide meaningful updates, and apparently app providers have no incentive to support TVs more than a year or two old.
So the most expensive, highest quality TV in my house can't use CBS All Access because the webOS version is slightly too old.
I've become convinced that you should either buy a TV with Roku built in or buy a TV and stick a Roku on it. It seems to be the only platform with the clout to get support for most streaming apps and that also updates its software regularly for a long time. I don't like the idea of a single, proprietary platform being the end-all, but every manufacturer-specific platform seems to be missing key streaming apps, and then there's Google where it's unlikely Google will support the device in a year.
Roku has built-in AirPlay support now too, which I believe makes it the only non-Apple device that you can "just" stream to from an iPhone.
That's good to hear. I definitely had a lot of initial irritation with my iPhone that the only box it could stream to was another Apple product (at the time).
Sticks are terrible. I remember getting the Fire Stick and finding it incredibly prone to crashing and regularly overheating. Chromecasts aren't much better, but newer ones are also meatier in size. Video streaming wasn't meant to be done by devices the size of a pack of gum.
Roku Premieres are pretty compact but work much better than the sticks. And Roku Ultras are really, really smooth, and support Ethernet!
Apple TV is a platform-locking choice. I have an iPhone now, but most of my devices aren't Apple. Rokus pretty happily stream and interact well with iPhones, Androids, and Windows computers without issue. To me, the fact that Roku both operates well and has wide independent app support and also can be mirrored to from nearly any device is a almost completely unmatched feature set.
Even if Roku doesn't have my app yet, as long as one device I have it on does, I'm good. Whereas I stumble over if my iPhone can mirror to my LG webOS TV (it can't), for example, and I have to break out a Windows PC just to mirror a show on an app it doesn't have.
With regards to HBO Max, that was a contract dispute over advertising share. Roku has had the existing HBO app for a long time.
I was thinking of Peacock/NBC. HBO Max may have been over subscriber fees instead, but the overall jist of when Roku doesn't have an app is that given their market share, Roku tends to insist on extra terms. For ad supported channels, some percentage of ads are served by Roku instead of the channel provider, and I believe when signing up for a paid channel via Roku, they get a recurring cut of the subscription.
I have a 2019 LG OLED. I use the TV remote to control an Nvidia Shield via HDMI-CEC.
Some apps work "better" on the TV (Netflix, Amazon Prime) since I can get Dolby Vision from the built-in apps. Other apps (Disney+) are horrifically buggy on the TV and I use the Shield for them.
I have not enabled all the snooping that LG wants, and so I do not see any ads. If I ever start to see ads, I'd factory reset the TV so it forgets my wifi, and use the shield or an Apple TV.
I also use the shield for and ad-free youtube by using SmartYouTubeTV on the shield.
Wait, why doesn't the Shield do Dolby Vision / HDR for Netflix/Amazon? I thought that was like one of the best options for a streaming media player so that is a big surprise to me. I'm curious because I also own a 2019 LG C9 and currently use only internal apps + my HTPC but am considering the Shield as an option.
I use a Sony TV and the latest Playstation(launch, pro, and now PS5). The TV remote can control the Playstation interface so you don't need to use the controller if you're just watching things.
Its all in on Sony but its pretty nice to only have one remote.
HDMI CEC should allow you to just reuse the TV remote, I had an NVIDIA Shield plugged into my TV for a while and it would automatically forward TV remote inputs to the Shield. At some point I just took the batteries out of the Shield remote and used the TV's for both.
As someone who a few years ago worked for a broadcaster and had a small amount of experience with building applications for television, Sony were always ambitious for their UX and would make good decisions such as going with what was at the time Android TV.
Sony had a couple of issues a few years ago:
- they would always produce televisions with underpowered hardware for the software experiences
- their operating systems would have as many as three competing interfaces in different parts
- Android Apps
- weird XMB evolution for settings etc.
- separate third party interface for digital tuner that also had a duplicated wrapped XMB interface
I wonder if they've managed to remedy some of that mess, as they would have been some of the most solid sets if it weren't for the bloat and chaos.
I think if TVs had a replaceable compute board, I'd be really on board with it. Sort of like plugging a Roku directly into the TV so it acted as the control card for the TV hardware as well, but was still user-replaceable/upgradeable.
It's amazing how the right/wrong task can cause your smart TV to slog around like it's a Windows 98 machine on dialup.
I'd like live TV from the channel selection fully integrated, not have to jump remotes, etc. I also think a single connection point should be able to not just display video and control the device, but power it too.
Perhaps at least higher output USB specs on TVs might eventually escape a separate power plug to the wall, but there's a lot of room for improvement.
I don't think it was that expensive, but it was definitely more expensive than it should have been and was barely marketed by Samsung. No real surprise that it flopped.
This is something I am so, so confused about and something that's desperately needed in this indsutry. I know they want "built-in obsolescence" but doing it through underpowered compute is insane to me in 2021. All that does is force me to buy an external box for no reason, the TV isn't getting replaced until I want a better screen.
Sony would do well to allow a replaceable compute module - they could even charge a premium for it.
Intel had the right idea with its Compute Card [0], but decided to sunset it a couple of years ago. It's clear that the way we're manufacturing these devices now is not the way forward. We're putting computers in televisions and refrigerators that can barely keep up with today's requirements, yet the general population expects these devices to have a lifespan of >10 years. With global warming as it is this is starting to border on criminal negligence.
When I heard about it, I thought the Compute Card was fantastic. ...Unfortunately the first time I heard about it was the announcement it was being retired.
I have a XBR-55X930D which is the 2016 model with Android TV and no XBR. I also have an older dumb tv Sony with the XBR interface.
You get what you pay for and the cheaper models have sluggish internals (although I think its fine on mine). That and the UX issues you mention do not apply to all Sony tvs.
Everything I've mentioned certainly applies to the 2017 flagship A1 OLED (which I use daily at home), so it was not limited to the cheaper models.
By XMB evolution I mean it's not quite the XMB, but the secondary menus when you get into settings etc. are carried over, and it's a separate interface and paradigm to the Android interface.
> they would always produce televisions with underpowered hardware for the software experiences
AFAIK they upgraded the SOC in 2020's mid-year model X900H to MediaTek MT5895. I have that TV and everything feels very snappy, it's good enough that I have a 2019 Shield TV sitting unused[1]. They feel pretty much the same (despite the Shield's Tegra being massively overpowered), even in game streaming performance (Steam Link and NVIDIA GameStream/Moonlight).
The common sentiment is that the new SOC is ["finally"] great. I wonder if they reused that SOC in the new XR series or picked another one, but either way it looks like they're not underpowered anymore. Bloatware was apparently massively reduced last year too, and there's a "delete all demo [retail] content" option in settings to reduce it further.
[1] I originally bought it because I figured (A) all Smart TVs are underpowered and (B) Smart TVs are not trustworthy, but this model is powerful enough and you can fully opt-out of analytics, even disable the Samba (not SMB) APK entirely.
Just realised I never mentioned anything from other manufacturers:
- LG were great because their hardware was appropriately powerful at the time and WebOS was well optimised (as well as being straightforward to develop for)
- Samsung were fine from a user perspective but had a lot of quirks for development
- Panasonic were similar to Sony (underpowered Android) but had far worse remotes and less spaghetti UX
Dumb TVs are disappearing from store shelves. Unless you know of a repair shop or third party that sells old units, you may not have a choice in a year's time.
I know this comes up every time there's a TV thread, so here's my tl;dr version...
You can get a commercial unit (commonly called digital signage) that will both faithfully display your input signal and last for frickin' ever (built for huge 24x7 workloads in poor environmental conditions), but you _will_ pay more and you _will_ give up some creature comforts and consumer focused features along with getting rid of spying crapware
These kinds of displays are increasingly becoming web managed. I don't think samsung actually even makes these kinds if displays that aren't web managed anymore.
Be careful with that. The most common commercial TV units run slightly-modified copies of consumer smart TV software too. (especially the units for digital signage, hospitality, and healthcare)
For example, many of LG's commercial TV's run 'commercial' WebOS ("Pro:Centric"). Many of Samsung's commercial TV's run 'commercial' Tizen ("SMART and/or LYNK + REACH")
You can still get dumb displays, especially if you ask for "monitors" instead of "televisions" or "digital signage". But it's getting way harder than it used to be, even if you exclusively look at the Commercial / Business models.
So is Android but the problem is privacy in both Android and WebOS. My chromecast and my LG TV are competing for first place in number of blocked connections in my Pfsense log.
I'll take a Vizio TV with halfassed "smart" features I can leave unplugged from the network, but I have less trust in a Google or Roku branded TV where the smart features are front and center. A company that makes money from electronics and not data is less likely to force itself online.
I have a Philips TV that came with Google TV installed (or Android TV not sure if they're different) but it's horrible. Crashes all the time for no reason, at some point it got an update and half the functionality just vanished into thin air. I will NEVER buy another Google powered TV, heck I might never even buy another smart TV (unless Apple releases one, because my Apple TV 4k and HD before that have been flawless for my needs!)
> A “Sound-from-Picture Reality” feature is claimed to “align the position of the sound with the images on the screen to offer a uniquely lifelike experience.”
Is that going to be at all useful if you use an AVR? It would have to receive the audio to augment it and then send it back to the AVR which I don't believe is part of the HDMI standard (2 audio return channels). I guess a lot of people will sport a high end XR TV but then pair it with only a sound bar and I guess it works for them.
It's not useful with an AVR or a sound bar. It's basically acting like a sound bar does and using the surround sound data to make the audio appear to come from different places.
It's not anything remotely new or exciting, it's just something that hasn't really been implemented in TVs until now.
I don't want my TV to run any platform/OS that would be the main source of content. Mainly because when I buy a TV it generally lasts for 10 years or so. My current Sony TV (around 10 years old) came with some "apps", none of which now work. Which I'm fine with. But what happens when that's the main OS for the TV? I'd much rather buy a new chromecast or firetv every few years to get the latest experience.
If I ever need a big screen, I'll make sure that it's a dumb TV, or a TV that can operate in dumb mode off an HDMI or DP cable. I'll also make sure it stays disconnected from the internet.
Man, I want a new TV. I had to walk past the rows of TVs at Costco last night, on my way to shelling out $800 for a month's worth of medicine for my dog. It's a good thing I love my (danged, heckin) dog.
Google tv on the outside of the cardboard box shows the old version without the latest version.
When you update the system to the latest version, it installs a forced ad rotation on the top. You have no control over that content, and there is no way to get rid of it. Pass.
If you like Google tv...go get a device that runs it you can update indefinatly, if you like apple tv or roku or whatever go get a device that does that. Nobody should be pro-"software in my tv that doesn't just run my tvs basic functions" because the possible goals of these decisions all bode poorly for the consumer.
Either it's to
vendor lock you,
Force you to upgrade,
Control your content,
Track your habits (potentially to sell that data),
Or just to sell/advertise you trash you don't need to later become rotware.
No good can come of this for you the consumer, though there are many flavors of bad, from the mild to the invasive.
75 comments
[ 3.3 ms ] story [ 151 ms ] threadFortunately, Sony made this easy - if you hold down the power button on the remote you get a restart option.
Isn't that the whole point of Android TV? It's another revenue stream for Sony, right? If you read through the privacy statement it's clear that Sony is monetizing everything they possibly can.
You can opt-out and lose nothing, as far as I can tell. But IIRC, you do have to accept the privacy policy to apply updates, but then you can opt-out again after.
Big news this year is Qualcomm is committing a whole extra year to security updates, so now you can keep using your car/tv/phone a whole 4 years! Oh boy!
Remember when we had that brief window, where phones had to come unlocked? And we had a surge of DIY folk making all kinds of neat Android distributions? Feels like such a far-off hard-to-imagine glimmering age to me now. Before the Republicans set about insuring the corporations had whatever rights they wanted, dismantling this basic consumer & ecological protection.
Plus I'd imagine if you stick with mainstream apps you'll probably be okay even without security updates though of course there's no guarantee.
I catch myself thinking that I'll be in a conundrum when the TV eventually dies. It looks like new versions of LG's WebOS has ads every time you open it's 'dock'.
Yes, you can buy an AppleTV (or your preferred alternative) – but you'll always be scurrying to the TV's original remove for anything beyond on/off, or changing the volume. So you either keep two remotes around, or toss Apple's glass remote and use a universal remote.
Does it work? Sure. Is it elegant? Eh. How have you guys solved this?
I don't do anything other than turn the TV off and on and change the volume, so the Apple TV remote (or any other remote programmed to work with the Apple TV remote) suffices.
I put a little adhesive remote holder I stuck on the back of the TV for the remote that came with the TV for the rare times I might need to change the input or something.
I'm not sure how long it's been since I've done anything other than volume, on/off, or source switch on the TV, but I think it's measured in years.
But there's still a lot that can not be done. I change my Samsung monitor's brightness, gamma, & "lean-back" view mode multiple times a week. On my projector I switch between "quiet" & normal mode, & adjust keystone & zoom depending on position.
It'd be awesome to de-interface the TV, to create machine-to-machine interfaces that let the TV be a "dumb" screen while still being able to fiddle it's knobs. We could definitely go middle-way by returning to the tv having an "on screen display" only, some menus for configuration, but I'd love to also expand the digital controllability of these things, such that Rokus & GTVs &c can integrate with, become a comprehensive modular hub/brain for controlling the TV.
So the most expensive, highest quality TV in my house can't use CBS All Access because the webOS version is slightly too old.
I've become convinced that you should either buy a TV with Roku built in or buy a TV and stick a Roku on it. It seems to be the only platform with the clout to get support for most streaming apps and that also updates its software regularly for a long time. I don't like the idea of a single, proprietary platform being the end-all, but every manufacturer-specific platform seems to be missing key streaming apps, and then there's Google where it's unlikely Google will support the device in a year.
Roku has built-in AirPlay support now too, which I believe makes it the only non-Apple device that you can "just" stream to from an iPhone.
Roku Premieres are pretty compact but work much better than the sticks. And Roku Ultras are really, really smooth, and support Ethernet!
Even if Roku doesn't have my app yet, as long as one device I have it on does, I'm good. Whereas I stumble over if my iPhone can mirror to my LG webOS TV (it can't), for example, and I have to break out a Windows PC just to mirror a show on an app it doesn't have.
With regards to HBO Max, that was a contract dispute over advertising share. Roku has had the existing HBO app for a long time.
HBO Max has advertising? I thought it was just because it was too new (at the time HBO Max was the new version of HBO Now).
> Whereas I stumble over if my iPhone can mirror to my LG webOS TV (it can't)
Airplay is generally supported by new devices, even LG tvs and Samsung TVs.
They do. For example they added Variable Refresh Rate to my TV in a firmware update. Also added more resolution options at 120hz.
Some apps work "better" on the TV (Netflix, Amazon Prime) since I can get Dolby Vision from the built-in apps. Other apps (Disney+) are horrifically buggy on the TV and I use the Shield for them.
I have not enabled all the snooping that LG wants, and so I do not see any ads. If I ever start to see ads, I'd factory reset the TV so it forgets my wifi, and use the shield or an Apple TV.
I also use the shield for and ad-free youtube by using SmartYouTubeTV on the shield.
Its all in on Sony but its pretty nice to only have one remote.
I own a LG OLED from 2020 and it has the option to turn on ads. Yes, it can have ads but you have to turn them on yourself.
For AppleTV it turns itself on when I tap the ATV remote, volume is adjusted using the same remote.
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AV1
Sony had a couple of issues a few years ago:
I wonder if they've managed to remedy some of that mess, as they would have been some of the most solid sets if it weren't for the bloat and chaos.It's amazing how the right/wrong task can cause your smart TV to slog around like it's a Windows 98 machine on dialup.
https://innovelis.com/
Perhaps at least higher output USB specs on TVs might eventually escape a separate power plug to the wall, but there's a lot of room for improvement.
Sony would do well to allow a replaceable compute module - they could even charge a premium for it.
[0] https://www.tomshardware.com/news/intel-compute-card-bad-ide...
You get what you pay for and the cheaper models have sluggish internals (although I think its fine on mine). That and the UX issues you mention do not apply to all Sony tvs.
By XMB evolution I mean it's not quite the XMB, but the secondary menus when you get into settings etc. are carried over, and it's a separate interface and paradigm to the Android interface.
AFAIK they upgraded the SOC in 2020's mid-year model X900H to MediaTek MT5895. I have that TV and everything feels very snappy, it's good enough that I have a 2019 Shield TV sitting unused[1]. They feel pretty much the same (despite the Shield's Tegra being massively overpowered), even in game streaming performance (Steam Link and NVIDIA GameStream/Moonlight).
The common sentiment is that the new SOC is ["finally"] great. I wonder if they reused that SOC in the new XR series or picked another one, but either way it looks like they're not underpowered anymore. Bloatware was apparently massively reduced last year too, and there's a "delete all demo [retail] content" option in settings to reduce it further.
[1] I originally bought it because I figured (A) all Smart TVs are underpowered and (B) Smart TVs are not trustworthy, but this model is powerful enough and you can fully opt-out of analytics, even disable the Samba (not SMB) APK entirely.
- LG were great because their hardware was appropriately powerful at the time and WebOS was well optimised (as well as being straightforward to develop for)
- Samsung were fine from a user perspective but had a lot of quirks for development
- Panasonic were similar to Sony (underpowered Android) but had far worse remotes and less spaghetti UX
You can get a commercial unit (commonly called digital signage) that will both faithfully display your input signal and last for frickin' ever (built for huge 24x7 workloads in poor environmental conditions), but you _will_ pay more and you _will_ give up some creature comforts and consumer focused features along with getting rid of spying crapware
For example, many of LG's commercial TV's run 'commercial' WebOS ("Pro:Centric"). Many of Samsung's commercial TV's run 'commercial' Tizen ("SMART and/or LYNK + REACH")
You can still get dumb displays, especially if you ask for "monitors" instead of "televisions" or "digital signage". But it's getting way harder than it used to be, even if you exclusively look at the Commercial / Business models.
Is that going to be at all useful if you use an AVR? It would have to receive the audio to augment it and then send it back to the AVR which I don't believe is part of the HDMI standard (2 audio return channels). I guess a lot of people will sport a high end XR TV but then pair it with only a sound bar and I guess it works for them.
It's not anything remotely new or exciting, it's just something that hasn't really been implemented in TVs until now.
When you update the system to the latest version, it installs a forced ad rotation on the top. You have no control over that content, and there is no way to get rid of it. Pass.
Either it's to
vendor lock you, Force you to upgrade, Control your content, Track your habits (potentially to sell that data), Or just to sell/advertise you trash you don't need to later become rotware.
No good can come of this for you the consumer, though there are many flavors of bad, from the mild to the invasive.