Ask YC: Where's the escape hatch? I'd like to leave the US, but to where?
I'm sick of the US. Politics gone mad, an economy driven by greed, police state evidence all around - I'm ready for a change.
1) Are there any countries where I can emigrate and start a company? If so, what are some startup hubs around the world?
2) What about any countries that are simply looking for high-tech web workers?
3) As someone who speaks English and only passable Spanish, how easy would it be to get a job in a non-English-speaking country like Japan? Is English typically spoken in the workplace?
104 comments
[ 0.22 ms ] story [ 192 ms ] threadAlthough if you're worried that the US is a police state, you might not like it there. It seems to be a country where you're free to do whatever a sensible adult would do, and you really shouldn't deviate from that norm.
But again, this is a matter of preference. If you love being an antisocial asshole, Singapore will be hell for you until they kick you out (if they let you in). If you're a responsible adult, you won't notice the laws because they won't apply to you -- the penalty for vandalism or heroin use or spitting on the sidewalk is inconsequential to me.
A scriptwriter in LA feels like he's living in someone else's country when his friend gets busted, or when he can't marry his partner -- a gas station owner in Nebraska feels similarly alienated whenever he watches a sitcom or a big-budget comedy. This doesn't have to be a problem (though it probably doesn't scale past a city-state).
By any definition, caning is torture. There's no potential ambiguity, unlike waterboarding. Singapore no longer publishes caning data, but illegal immigration carries a mandatory sentence of caning and more than 10,000 people were arrested for that in 2004.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caning_in_Singapore
Edit: there is a torture exemption for pain and suffering arising from "lawful sanctions": perhaps caning is excluded from the definition of torture. I guess judicial waterboarding would also be legal. http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/h_cat39.htm
Anyway, compare it to prison: caning probably hurts a whole lot, and might take weeks to heal. And then it's over. Prison hurts less, but takes years -- during which the prisoner is subsidized by the taxpayers. If the US introduced caning as a prison alternative (for first-time offenders, at least) it would probably make the country a much nicer place to live.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chewing_gum_ban_in_Singapore
I add Scotland because Dundee seems to attract a lot of IT types, we had dealings with folks in Dundee and they were all whip-smart individuals.
If you want to do a little research before you go, you can pick something a little neater, like Estonia. Estonia would be choice #1 for me, just because it's actually a not-bad economy, good ties to the rest of Scandinavia, orderly/not corrupt, and definitely part of the startup world (Skype and Kazaa, hello?).
And then you could visit Russia and Ukraine and say hello to a real police state...
The big risk to the Scottish economy is that the SNP finally win Scottish independence and Westminster cancels the GBP 45Bn (approx USD 100Bn) subsidy from English taxes. At that point, unless the EU steps in, the Scottish economy will plummet like a rock.
However, looking like continued devolution is much more likely than independence in the near future. I believe the polls show only about 1 in 3 adults supporting full independence, but most support continued freedom [e.g. continuing in the vein of having a parliament again].
And over and above that, the Scots have got nowhere to vote. They can't vote New Labour, they won't vote Tory, the Lib Dems are a joke, the SNP is about the only way to vote up there right now. If the SNP force the issue, the West Lothian problem may not be resolved in a way that favours the Scots...
Good luck finding another country that is hospitable to a non-citizen starting a business, presents a ready market (all the Web2.0 stuff aside, it is still helpful to be close to the majority of your initial user base), has a legal system that affords you some protection, and lastly - has a tax system that allows you to actually keep a fair percentage of the money you earn.
I don't really care if you mod me down or not, but your post sounds childish and naive. You want to "start a company", but you don't even know where in the world to go, or where English is spoken? Have you done any research at all on this topic (and I wouldn't count posting a question here and expecting people to do your homework 'research')?
You're asking about leaving the US to supposedly start a company. This is much different than looking for the change of scenery and experience of exploring a different country.
You're in the BEST place in the world to start a company. Not recognizing that fact and wanting to start a company shows, to me, a level of immaturity and short-sightedness that is somewhat frustrating.
Sorry if you didn't like my post, I write what I feel.
- Gordon Gekko
You need to ask yourself if your possible employees can count leading web/software firms in their CV as more than likely in the US, no is the answer.
We have had extremely bad experiences with UK firms and now outsource all our IT projects via Guru/elance to Eastern European countries like Slovenia and further afield to Kenya (fast becoming a call centre and data alternative to India) and India.itself. The UK currently is in a financial crisis, we are experiencing a hard knock on from the US housing crisis and our inflation is currently at around 3.8% which is well above average. Additionally you will find it shocking to note the Petrol prices here are near on the highest in the world - approx £5.42 per gallon at the moment (approx $11) an earlier comment about EU countries is very viable and moving around between countries is relatively easy within the EU.
From a startup scene perspective there are little in the way of the numerous startup meets and socials I see startups being able to attend in San Fransisco. There just isnt a central hub as you have in the US for technology yet, maybe in 10 years there will be but for now its diluted.
Personally I know of the beauty and appeal of New Zealand and understand the benefits but for the pure weather, excellent salaries and quality of life Australia would be my preferred choice. Suffice to say I have been looking at moving to the US for the reason of the benefits it would bring a new startup and the networking facilities. The Venture Capital reach alone is staggering.
Hope this helps. Additionally to note, setting up a company in the UK will require a UK bank account which in turn requires a permanant address and credit checks etc.
Americas: Canada (English speaking, diversified society, encouraging entrepreneurship etc.)
Asia: Singapore, India, Indonesia, Philippines (all countries are english speaking for business)
Europe: any eastern Europe that has good weather and encouraging environment for start-ups.
Far East: Australia/ NewZealand (they have immigration policy, and fantastic weather)
Middle East: Abu-dhabi and Dubai (most happening place, no tax, you just need to find good geeks or import it from India).
Good Luck.
P.S: Find out everything about Australia and Canada - they both have immigration policy and temporary work visa policy ...
If you are from the US, you can never escape paying income tax unless you plan on never returning. You can't legally renounce your citizenship.
I shouldn't have mentioned the politics stuff in my post. That confused the issue for some. The top reason for me asking is that I'm just ready for a change. I know every place has its downside, but without ever living anywhere else - how can I know for certain what is important to me?
Challenges can also be found by giving yourself some handicaps.I knew a guy who was a moderately successful programmer, who sold all his belongings and hitchhiked across the USA.
If you want some sort of adventure that will test your sense of yourself, try someplace very different. India, Africa, China. Best handled with a buddy traveler, but they are not so hard to find.
Extreme short term, you can try Burning Man, that's on in a month and it will definitely stretch your imagination.
Work in the web, relax in good weather. The best weather in the US is either in Hawaii or on the coast north of San Diego.
Used to be people who wanted to get away went to the Soviet Union to help build the freedom of the Workers Paradise. I'd say be careful. It could be a one-way trip.
Tell us your politics, religion, sexual orientation and age and we can be of more help. I gather you're looking for a left-wing tech incubator. Don't know of any, but Israel and Ireland come close.
Greed- just expresses itself through different channels Police state - give me a break Politics gone mad - freedom has its price
Unfortunately, as much as it sucks, it is better than every other alternative.
As for finding another place, there are problems with any other places you pick. Can you pick up a high-tech job in Japan without knowing Japanese? Not likely. Japan is also a nifty place to visit but rarely a good place to stay.
Maybe you can run to Canada.
All the action is in Tokyo, Kyoto, and Nagoya.
Wherever in the world that you think of moving to, by all means, take a 2-3 week vacation there first. There is no way to know you will be happy on the ground without being there for a while to experience it.
If you're looking for a different, more serious, more pro-globalization news source, try the CFR. They are our friends, I think. http://www.cfr.org/
And have you considered that the bickering, the analysis, the corruption, the this and that is part of the evolution of our republic and culture? That the introspection is required and Reddit being the lens is only one part of that? The only other thing that can make you feel better, albeit still hollow, is voting. Aside from that all you have left is to be personally involved in politics. I dropped what I was doing and bought a ticket to join the Ron Paul protest and rally. It made me feel better.
There are much safer and cleaner, less stressful places to live in the world. A few I have seen with my own eyes are Denmark and Japan. I am sure there are others.
Every place has its faults. For example, Canada tends to be a bastion of liberalism and multi-culturalism. However, in the province of Ontario, Catholic denominated schools are public funded while schools of other religions must be privately funded. That doesn't mean that Ontario is a bad place to live or that its governors are bad people; it means that every place has these huge annoying faults that just suck.
So, the question isn't "where is better than America". That's a silly question. "Where do the annoyances annoy me personally less" is a better question. Maybe you care about domestic spying, but don't mind the state funding Catholic schools. Maybe you hate republicans for crying terror all the time, but don't mind European leaders yelling at immigrants for looking different. Maybe you hate the greed, but don't mind massive consumerism and vending machines selling everything everywhere in Japan.
For what it's worth, I'd have to agree with the couple of people that have mentioned Ireland. It's wealthy, immigrant-friendly, high-tech, with a good and stable government. It's environmentalist and a tad socialist without being anti-business. OH, and it's English speaking. The downsides? Well, broadband is crappy and everything costs a boatload. Police can stop and search without suspicion (as is the case in most countries); that mostly applies to things like drunk driving which has a zero-tolerance policy (as in, no driving if you've had a beer).
You have to figure out what you value - and whether a certain place has it. The Economist's Quality of Life Index (http://www.economist.com/media/pdf/quality_of_life.pdf) is a good place to narrow your list and it's important to note that there are only a dozen countries scoring higher than the US. I'd say, based on who I am, I'd be happy in half to three-quarters of those. Hope this has provided help.
As long as you don't really hate the cold - and enjoy winter sports, the winter is bearable. (yes, that was for laughs, and yes I just thought it up now)
It does make it harder to get focussed right now when the weather is delightful.
And note, there are not so many "IT-countries" but most of IT companies in them depend on IT industry in US. So you could lose your money.
Actually I don't know much about NZ immigration policy, but in some countries(CZ for example) you can find a job on the spot, in other countries(for example in Australia) you have to prove your skills via some tests and only after you have appropriate number of points you get a work permit.
Moving away from the US is a huge amount of work. I have done it and I have to say that I agree with the negative tone here -- if you're not completely determined to do it, and haven't done the due diligence to have a strong desire to go to a specific place and really dig deep into their immigration requirements, then it bodes ill for your scheming. It's just not something you can do on a whim.
As for workplaces, some are in English, especially in international firms, but usually to feel comfortable in a place you'll want to learn the local language. Aside from it being necessary for building up a social circle, say, when you go to the doctor, or need to get your utilities set up, or have to fill out your tax forms, that will naturally all be in the local language.
Setting up a new business, without a local co-founder, would be next to impossible without speaking the local language ( aside from the fact that in most countries you wouldn't be allowed to do so anyway). You need to put so many things -- taxes, incorporation, insurance, contracts, banking -- and again, naturally all of those things will happen in the local language.
And then, to top things off, for doing a startup, the US is the most convenient place to be. You can do it elsewhere, and there are a couple hot spots -- Tel Aviv, London -- but it seems best to focus on where you want to be, figure out if you could possible get there, and then figure out if there's a startup scene. Keep in mind that if you start sorting this out today, it'll probably be 6-12 months before you could move.
While being abroard, people tends to loose interest in politics : they're not concerned by home politics, and they're not citizens of their hosting country. Maybe it's not true for americans since even their internal affairs are covered worldwide.
http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc853.html
Much clearer information at About.com:
http://taxes.about.com/od/taxhelp/a/ForeignIncome.htm
Short version: if you move abroad, you pay taxes only on income over $87,600, at least for 2008.
You can also exclude some housing allowance, but the amount is not as standard or clear (see About.com).
BTW - I'm an American living abroad; I agree that you should seek to solve the problems you have / perceive, and not expect anything close to perfect anywhere. I miss a good number of things about the U.S., and many things... not so much. YMMV...
If you don't speak Japanese then it isn't easy to get a job in Japan. But, anything is possible. I've talked with many people that moved to Japan and they often found it to be a cold and isolating place after they outgrew the "cute American boy" look and role. You can count on doing most stuff in Japanese in Japan. I have a friend that came to the US and learned a lot of English, and she works as a liaison between her Japanese coworkers and their foreign business partners. Other than that kind of job, everything is Japanese, and Japanese people are much less willing to try to speak to you in English than the natives of other countries in my experience. Anyway, Speaking Japanese is not hard but it takes a long time to read and write. If you save up some money you can take an intensive course for a year and you will be more than good for getting a job that doesn't require too much reading, assuming you have a US degree already.
Anyway, you can go anywhere and do anything. But, there are few places in the world where you can go and do anything easier than you can in the US. When I left, I thought it was great at first; in the end I was making plans to bring my new friends back here with me so they would have more opportunities and a fairer chance at a good life. Becoming a foreigner in another country doesn't increase your freedom whatsoever; you are staying in their country at their pleasure, and you have very little leverage in any situation.
Regardless of where you go, it really helps to have a lot of money relative to those around you. Stick around a little bit and make a nice pile of money to take with you, if you don't have one already.
- The USA has got its problems, but other countries also have their problems. Half the problems that plague the USA also plague the world. (Example: Our housing bubble is also, in part, a global housing bubble -- easy credit can cross national boundaries, and it has!) And many of the problems that are new to the USA are old news in the rest of the world. (Ask a Londoner about police-state surveillance. Ask (e.g.) a Brazilian from the slums of Rio about police violence. Ask a Chinese person about what it's like to live without a First Amendment... or ask an old Chinese person, or (god help us) a Cambodian, what "politics gone mad" really looks like.)
- You need to travel, no question. Just take some long trips. If you put all your stuff in storage you can spend your rent money in foreign countries for months at a time.
- The best place for you to start a company is almost certainly the USA. You know the language. You know the culture. You've got a lot of contacts. You have no legal issues.
- You're a web worker. Think about it: Just because your company is in the USA doesn't mean your office needs to be in the USA. You can have an office on a beach in Argentina for a month, then have an office in a cafe in Japan for a month, then have an office in a hostel in Australia for a month. Just learn the local words for "wifi" and remember: When a customs official asks if your trip is for pleasure you say yes.