Multiple-citizenship has always been fascinating to me. For example, most countries oaths of citizenship are worded in such a way that preclude loyalty split between them and another, yet they don't prevent or punish their citizens for holding dual citizenship.
My understanding of citizenship is that it's a relatively modern invention that a person could have more than one citizenship. The oaths you mention are holdovers from the time when citizenship meant fealty to a specific ruler in exchange for lifelong protection and sanctuary. To have more than one citizenship would be impossible, since you can only be "supremely loyal" to a single sovereign.
These days, since citizenship is more an operation of law from a nation state and less a particular privilege granted by a ruling individual, such loyalty is less required. The vast majority of countries consider someone who has multiple citizenships, including the one of the country in which they are in, to be a citizen of solely that country (e.g. if you are a dual citizen of the United States and Australia and you are standing in the United States, the U.S. only recognizes your U.S. citizenship).
Some countries, like Germany, still actively try to discourage the practice, though even Germany is becoming less strident. If you are a German citizen and you naturalize in any other (non-EU or EEA country or Switzerland), you automatically lose your German citizenship by operation of law unless you asked for permission to retain it. But getting permission has become progressively easier, and Germany does not make a person who is born with German citizenship and another citizenship choose by a certain age.
It is something of an interesting topic, for sure, though it's very easy to fall down the dark well of conspiracy theorists (some Germans believe you are not a Proper German Citizen unless you have the goldenrod-colored A4 form declaring you to be so) and nation state abolitionists (not saying I disagree with the latter, but it is a very short trip from there to "I am a human and also a corporate person separate from my corporeal being").
I'm no expert, but anecdotally I can tell that the idea that the oaths are holdovers doesn't quite apply to the US. Their oath is worded in such a way that you very clearly have to give up loyalty to any other country state, but the US was never governed by a single monarch/ruler (after independence of course).
The Canadians citizenship ceremony to me was fascinating, because it begins with an aboriginal land acknowledgement.
The statement is quite literally "the very ground we're standing on doesn't even belong to us, but here we are saying that you are a citizen of . . . clearly not the land".
Their demographic experiment is also very interesting. About 10% of all Canadians don't actually live in Canada - that is an extremely large ratio. It is also a growing number, and as housing prices and lack of economic opportunity continue to drag, more Canadians leave. At the same time, the Canadian government is desperate to ignore these issues, and just bringing as many immigrants as possible so they can prop the housing market since it is the last bastion of their economy and accounts for a third of GDP when you factor in related services and industries. That was pre-COVID so now it's quite likely to be even larger.
It's a generational revolving door of immigrating, getting citizenship, and then watching your kids emigrate. I suspect that within our lifetimes we'll see >50% of Canadians actually live outside of Canada.
Being Canadian will be a sort of administrative identity more than anything resembling a citizenship.
> Being Canadian will be a sort of administrative identity more than anything resembling a citizenship.
This is pretty much how my US citizenship is now after living abroad for about 6 years and having a long term bearish outlook on NA, EU, China, Japan (demographics, sovereign/corp debt + real yields).
The Canadians citizenship ceremony to me was fascinating, because it begins with an aboriginal land acknowledgement.
Since when?
I grew up in Canada and obtained citizenship there in 1990. (After the USA decided that they were sick and tired of losing dual citizenship cases in the Supreme Court and stopped pursuing them.) There was no such acknowledgement of the ceremony that I took part in.
Incidentally my children get to be Canadian. But my grandchildren do not unless they are born in Canada. That seems reasonable.
It looks like this is mentioned as a possible change to the oath[1] from a 2015 report by the Truth and Reconciliation Commission[2]. But if the current government of Canada website lists the oath without the phrase "including treaties with Indigenous peoples", then I would guess it was never officially changed.
Perhaps it was added as part of the ceremony in another manner but not officially in the oath.
Housing is only a side effect. The main thing is, Canadians do not make enough children. With fertility rate less than 1.5, immigration is the only source of healthy population.
That said, current requirement to have a job to immigrate, makes government locked in its own bureaucracy in current conditions. Businesses need people but no one wants to bet on human resource which needs months if not years to get there.
US with 1.75 is not far ahead, and recent administrations games will soon create a similar crisis.
Canada is barely a real country anyway. There’s no such thing as Canadian culture (it’s racist to imply there should be). All that’s left holding the people together is an economy that isn’t working for anyone who doesn’t already own a house. I can’t imagine it staying intact for the rest of the century
Yes. The US used to be quite strict about this. It still is if you acquire US citizenship by naturalization.
"I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen"
The deal for people who are already US citizens is easier.
No it doesn’t. Although, the oath does place limits on the exercise of any foreign citizenship. For instance a Brit who is a naturalized US Citizenship can’t run for Parliament because it would require them to give an oath of loyalty to the Queen.
There are fun workarounds around that oath. But the point is true in general: as a Member of Parliament, one must put priority to their duty to the country they represent. One might ask whether MPs with sole citizenship perform well in that regard, but it is quite easier to raise doubts in case of MP with additional citizenships.
> It still is if you acquire US citizenship by naturalization.
No. Notwithstanding the strong language, US law does not require you to relinquish your old citizenship when you naturalize. https://www.usa.gov/become-us-citizen
I'm curious about what goes through the minds of people who take that oath while retaining another citizenship. To them is it just meaningless words they have to say to get a check mark on paperwork? Do they regard any oath or agreement that isn't enforced by legal consequences as something they can ignore? Do they think of it as unfair and hence not worth feeling bad about?
I think it would depend on where you wanted to live, and what countries citizenship you had access to. I would love to have permanent residency in one of the Schengen Area countries. But that's probably not feasible unless I bump up my income a bunch.
Multiple passports, in 2021 gives you options that are invaluable. You can establish homes in 3 countries. In case of emergency in one country you can go to another 2. You can enter countries that exclude citizens with one or more passports.
There is so much to be thankful for with multiple citizenships.
The one major downside is U.S. Taxes.
Be very grateful to your parents and self-initiative.
I moved between different EU countries over the years, every time you don't have to request any authorization to settle or work, you just declare that you're doing it at the beginning.
A US passport or green card lets you settle in 50 states with no issues ;-)
Of course there is less cultural diversity than the EU - but the uniformity of law and culture makes moving between states even easier than the EU.
For example a green card holder can reside one year in each of five different states and that will count as the 5 years residence necessary to naturalize as a US citizen. If an EU permanent resident moves between countries like that, they'll never stay long enough in any one country to gain citizenship.
The US has one federal gov though, so you have less choices about entry requirements. All the EU counties have different citizenship requirements, but once you get one you can live in any
Japan also does not allow its adult citizens to have other nationalities. Those who have Japanese and another nationality from birth are required to choose one after reaching adulthood or risk losing their Japanese nationality [1]. Those acquiring Japanese nationality are also required to renounce other nationalities if possible [2, Article 5].
I know someone who was born in the Soviet Union and, after living in Japan for many years, became a Japanese citizen. She had problems renouncing her previous citizenship because the country where she was born no longer existed; she said she had to bribe someone at the Russian Embassy to get the necessary documentation. She also mentioned being detained and questioned when trying to enter Canada on her Japanese passport for a short stay because the Canadian immigration officials thought she didn’t look Japanese. She had no similar difficulties when trying to enter Japan itself.
That’s easily “circumvented” with an OCI (Overseas Citizenship of India) card. You lose the right to vote or hold public office, but have permanent residence and authorisation to work.
By that definition there's simply no such thing as dual US citizenship for someone from outside the USA.
"No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident ..."
Yes, but India has something called Person Of Indian Origin Card, PIO Card. Which is also known as semi passport. You don't need visa to Infia, can buy land, business. Cant vote, stand in elections, hold government jobs.
Edit: or i think its OCI Card, Overseas Citizen of India. PIO is discontinued.
There was a better article on this, but I didn’t find it.
Essentially, being born in the U. S while living elsewhere is a financial burden. As in, you haven’t been here since birth, but you are expected to pay for citizenry.
I’m not the OP, but I have a similar situation. I’m on the west coast and work for a company based in the UK.
For the most part, it’s a minor annoyance that any problems I have or questions I need answers to are a 24 hour turn around, but otherwise I get my work done and deliver it and they get it the next day. If you’re on top of things, it’s not too challenging.
I work in my company's main timezone (US East coast). But my observation is that the (few) people we have on the West coast need to adapt to fairly regular 6am or so meetings and those in Europe often need to work into at least the early evening. It works although IMO being at all synchronous starts to get hard with more than a 6hr difference.
I worked East coast time from the Mountain time zone, with colleagues primarily in the East Coast, Europe, and India.
The 6am meetings were a constant feature - complicated by the semi-annual daylight saving time dance.
Indian coworkers shifted their work day a bit later (helped a little with traffic!). Europe definitely preferred the mid-afternoon meetings, rather than flipping them by 12 hours. Adding anyone from Oceania would be difficult...
A nitpick, I'm living in one of these countries that "eradicated Covid" and the frankly obvious truth is they didn't, their borders were completely open for months after covid was detected and spreading like fire, and they never adapted the widespread testing and mortality classification regimes like the US did.
Having been under lockdown (or more broadly hard restrictions) for at least 9 months of the last year I've come to the opposite conclusion, I would like to be a dual national of the USA just to take advantage of the idea that I can vote with my feet when it comes to state governance issues. If I don't like lockdown policy, I can move somewhere that has a lighter touch (like from NYC to Miami which I know a lot of people have done).
In the UK (especially post-brexit), NZ and Australia it feels like being trapped. Travel is restricted both internally (sporadically) and externally and the regional governments have more or less the same policies, so I don't see anyway to vote with my feet here that doesn't come with a high cost.
I also have a gold card. I encourage every high | special skilled person to apply for it. the process is pretty straightforward. Taiwan needs foreigners. And for an afrikan guy like me who lived in the US before, it's a blessing.
only downside to Taiwan is the language. But it's highly developed, cheap for most things and nature all around.
I right by the beach and my rent is way less than I would've paid in the US
I was curious about freedom of travel benefits and made an app where you can check how many more countries you'd be able to access with another passport on top of your existing one: https://multinational.io/best_passport
One little request: please list Ireland as Ireland like it's done everywhere else. Couldn't find it until I tried another country and saw it in the list as "the Republic of Ireland"
It's quite tricky with Germany - they only allow citizenships acquired by birth in all cases. It is easier with EU and Swiss citizenships or if they deem it to be unreasonably complicated or expensive to relinquish the other citizenship, e.g. the US one.
I am a dual citizen of the United States and Croatia (European Union citizen). I am culturally American, and I have spent the vast majority of my life in the US.
I left the US about a month before the lockdowns started. I have been living in Croatia for the past year. I can technically live/work/retire in any EU/EFTA country (minus Lichtenstein--has an immigration quota), due to having Freedom of Movement rights. In a lot of ways the world is my oyster.
Being a dual citizen has some unique advantages: I can also work a US based job, remotely in the EU, completely legally. I have pretty severe health problems, so being able to work remotely in the EU for a US based company is a huge deal. I just have to get the US based employer to agree to use a payroll company as an intermediary to deal with payroll taxes. Obviously I forfeit EU workers' rights.
But, it is way, way, less stressful living here, just in general. Americans have no idea. The taxes are worth the peace of mind along with the stability it gives society.
I naturalized as Croatian only for the right to healthcare: I have 2 rare immune-mediated neurological diseases affecting my peripheral nervous system, which is in remission. I require many unusual treatments and medications, which are difficult to access in the US, for a variety of reasons. Some of these interventions are life-and-death.
Being a us dual citizen has the disadvantage of continuing to owe income tax to the USA even while living in Europe. Also many international banks cringe at opening accounts with “us persons” because it exposes them to a lot of onerous requirements. Can make banking somewhat a pain.
That tends to be the deciding factor. If you live somewhere with many US expats, the banks are usually willing to jump through hoops to get you as a customer.
If you’re a one-off for them they may just say “no”.
> I live in a country with many American expats, none of them have had any problem whatsoever to access to banking services, including opening accounts
It depends on the bank. Any bank doing business internationally is usually fine because they probably already have a robust compliance mechanism in place, but a lot of local banks will just straight-up say no because they don't want to be subjected to FBAR / FATCA.
There are obscene penalties for improper reporting of foreign bank accounts via FATCA regulations, even if you made a prudent attempt of doing so in your US income taxes. Due to this, you always have to use a CPA as a form of insurance when filing US income taxes abroad.
You must have a bank account in Croatia, for example, to get various things done with Croatian government bureaucracy. Generally speaking, some German and Austrian banks will do business with American citizens. It is important to be gracious and patient, as FATCA is a huge pain.
There is a Foreign Earned Income Exclusion on US income tax returns. For 2020 it is $107,600, and for 2021 it is $108,700. Obviously investments are another story. But, many Americans abroad do not have to pay US income taxes, but they do have to file them.
In the US, with good health insurance benefits through a large employer, my out-of-pocket costs were around $25,000-$30,000/year. Even if I paid US taxes on top of the European taxes, it is not the worst thing in the world: I never have to worry about being cared for here, and the doctors have a lot more time for me here, and can follow my case better.
I also require an orphan drug to stay alive, which costs hundreds of thousands of dollars per year in the US, typically covered by insurance, but not guaranteed. So, I could always end up with an obscene bill in the mail. (It has happened before and I have been lucky to get off the hook.)
However, I also have other uncovered medical expenses, encountered thanks to insurance issues. I literally generated well over 100 claims per year on medical insurance alone, so it was not like I never had uncovered expenses. Obviously you fight it, and you never give up, because that is what the providers expect you to do. However, there are a lot of situations that are just unwinnable.
In reality, my yearly healthcare liability in the US was closer to $30,000/year.
Was the monthly premium covering more than you? Paying $950/month is you paying almost 100% of the premium and your employer paying nothing.
I had the opposite experience. I found US health insurance reasonable and it covered more than in my original country (which didn’t cover the latest cancer treatments and had long waiting lines). If I got seriously ill and had good insurance I’d return to the US for care than stay where I am today in a developed country.
For the digital nomad visa in Estonia, for example, you need connections there to essentially get it.
Czech Republic has a self-employment visa that allows you to work without formal business connections within the country, which is pretty unique among the European Union.
But no country will forbid you to reside in it when you are a citizen of it, and work for a remote company. I think the misunderstanding here from my side was that with "dual citizenship" you meant "having an additional non US passport", but I understood it as "also having an US passport".
Not true, US is one of the only countries that requires you to pay taxes no matter you live or where you work as long as you're a US citizen and alive the IRS requires you to pay income tax.
That was my point (although possibly poorly worded): in this particular instance, dual citizenship is not an advantage. Just being a citizen of Croatia would have been better.
> You have to pay taxes and social security in the country where you reside, not where you are a citizen and/or work (mostly).
Only US & Eriteria taxes its residents/citizens' income, no matter where it generated. So a US born baby (us citizen by birth), moved to Europe back with parents, or even an adult us citizen working outside US has to file the IRS Return. Every year.
Not if you're yearly income is less than $12000, and I don't think they'll go after you even if you make $100 thousand, because you still won't have to pay any US even if you do file (most countries have agreements with the US to avoid double-taxation below a certain amount). I know a lot of American citizens who live permanently in Canada, and not all of them file US taxes, including my mother in the decades she's lived in Canada.
Technically, by law, return is required for any income over $0.50, no taxes till world wide $12000(US+NonUS) or $107000 Foreign/NonUS income, but still, IRS expects a return filed. In practice, yes, not much problem.
There are advantages to filing even when it's not required. Oddly enough, the US government still paid me $1200 + $600 of COVID economic relief (auto-deposited to my US bank account) even though I haven't lived in the US for many years. I didn't think I'd be eligible, but apparently I am (just in case, I haven't spent the money yet). It's weird that they gave the money so freely.
The money was given out pretty indiscriminately (on purpose, they didn't want vetting to slow down the process). There has been massive fraud, but on the otherhand the benefits made a real difference to a lot of people at a time when that mattered. I think keeping the money "in escrow" is a good idea. I know I'm above the income limits for some of the benefits, but still got them. I expect I'll need to pay them back just as part of normal tax fillings.
Unconditional benefits are less susceptible to fraud because there aren't conditions to evade. They're also easier to administer and are generally progressive, as a fixed universal benefit is more useful to poor people than high income people, due to the diminishing marginal utility of most benefits. Taxation, as you say, does the rest.
Did your US company pay you as a contractor? Set up a foreign entity in your country to pay you? How did you get paid by American company, legally, while in a European country?
> But, it is way, way, less stressful living here, just in general. Americans have no idea. The taxes are worth the peace of mind along with the stability it gives society.
Can you please go on with this point and provide some 1-1 examples you've personally seen? I keep dreaming and have, for the last 5 years, about leaving the US and living in Europe but I feel like I'm throwing away an enormous economic opportunity by moving now.
I have accumulated and will continue accumulating wealth that would be impossible to accumulate in any European country in my lifetime. I keep saying, one more year, just one more year and it seems to be a hamster wheel that never stops spinning.
I'm afraid I'll wake up one day, after saying one more year, that I'm 50 years old with 2 kids and a life in the US that I'll have a harder time leaving behind.
> leaving the US and living in Europe but I feel like I'm throwing away an enormous economic opportunity
Check out Luxembourg, Switzerland, and Lichtenstein. These places pay incredibly well and once you factor in the cost of healthcare and general quality of life, the US looks like a bad joke. These three countries’ job market is accessible with a Schengen visa.
> These three countries’ job market is accessible with a Schengen visa.
Is that true? I'd have assumed that EU citizens have access, but non-EU would need to apply specifically for FL/CH work permits.
(and I'm not sure, is there actually a EU-wide work permit for non-EU? I had the impression that each country is still handling non-EU permit separately)
I don’t know about FL but for CH you do have to apply for a permit. However, if you have a job offer and an EU passport you basically just pay the fee for the permit and you’ll get it (usually for five years). And af r the five years you can either renew your work permit or apply for permanent residency.
Same goes for CH nationals who want to work in the EU.
Definitely as CH takes part in the freedom of movement with EU.
My comment was really about non EU+ nationals. If you get a working permit as a 3rd party national with no treaty with EU, in eg Germany, can you just move to Spain and work?
I think so, yes. At least that’s how I understand residence works: you get a residence permit for say Belgium and you can use that permit to move and go live in Portugal for instance. Not an expert and no first hand experience with this, I might be completely wrong.
The European Union member states subscribe to multiple fundamental ideas, one of which is the principle of solidarity.
This means that there is a strong social safety net, and we take care of the vulnerable. I do not have to worry about the cost of my medical care or other social needs. I pay my taxes, do my part as a citizen, and I know I will be taken care of.
Essentially, because of this I do not have to live in fear.
I basically chose my field of work due to the need for health insurance, as an American. When I was at university, some semesters I was basically going to university just to keep and maintain health insurance, when I was sick beyond belief. It was unbelievably stressful. I never would have needed to do this if I was a Croatian citizen at that time.
I also do not have to accumulate huge amounts of wealth to ensure I am cared for, like I would in America. I do not have to be on a hamster wheel that never stops spinning, due to the principle of solidarity.
I simply get to be free. I do not have to work a job just for benefits or for pay. I do not have to work long grueling hours.
Anyways, the best country to get EU citizenship in, usually for people on here is Republic of Ireland, which permits dual citizenship. You can get citizenship there in 5 years. Besides getting Freedom of Movement rights to live/work/retire in the EU/EFTA (minus Lichtenstein), you also get rights to live/work/retire in the UK, due to treaties and historical ties.
Also, most people here are skilled workers in tech. In Ireland, for many people here on this site, you can get a job visa to Ireland relatively easily, without a skilled worker test (which means that the Irish employer has to demonstrate that they are not taking a job from an EU citizen by hiring you--the documentation required can be harsh for the employer), as there is an exemption: https://enterprise.gov.ie/en/What-We-Do/Workplace-and-Skills...
Thanks for sharing. I spent some time in Europe albeit that was a long time ago and I feel like I was too young to experience the hardships of life I'm facing in the US.
I know the safety nets you're referring to, they're there for health care, unemployment and worker rights. Things that don't really exist for most people in the US if they're unemployed or in a regular job.
I'm lucky to be in a well paid, high lucrative job even if I have to pay the highest taxes in the US (Which let's be real, are little compared to the EU).
I have a Romanian passport so it's easy to jump over the pond but I'd love my US residency and all the years I put in to be able to start switching jobs more easily. I don't want a ridiculous amount of wealth but I'd love to have a head start and secure financial freedom for my family.
One of my friends just left Munich for Colorado, he said houses are still too expensive in major German cities and salaries too low. He was working remote for a SV company and making big bucks for EU standards. I keep hearing how I'll just have to swallow a tiny salary compared to SV wages if I move to any EU country, Switzerland included.
I guess I have to get to the point where I'm ready to leave the consumerism behind, be happy with extra vacation / free time and "unprogram" every bad habit I learned while living in the US.
>One of my friends just left Munich for Colorado, he said houses are still too expensive in major German cities and salaries too low.
Thanks for pointing this out as it is very important information to have vs. everything we hear about Germany being "the best place in the world" and "you don't need to buy property as everyone here rents".
If you need another data point, my partner and I only pay about 25% of our combined after-tax salary in rent, living in a "major German city" (both employed in STEM). Factor in an additional 10/15% for living costs and we are left with significant disposable income, in my eyes.
55k and 75k yearly pre-tax, but as a PhD student and recent graduate we expect to get a significant increase in a few years as I also join the industry and we both level up.
But, as said by others, comparing raw numbers is pointless. Even if we spent the 2/3k that are left each month, we'd still have health insurance and pension paid for by our taxes. We aren't forced to build so much wealth to weather bad times because proper insurance is built in the system.
Sorry I wasn't clear, my partner is an IT consultant in a large firm and there you can earn 90k or more in senior positions (say five years in). I get 55k as a PhD student and this is mandated by law, but you can get less if you don't have teaching duties.
It's project work with different clients. Each project lasts for 3 to 9 months and you are involved in many stages, from defining requirements and expectations at the beginning, to developing and possibly deploying a solution, to presenting the work done to stakeholders at the client's. After a project is done you either negotiate an extension of the project or leave maintenance to the client and leave to start a new thing.
So there is much more focus on soft skills, such as leaving a good impression, properly selling your work so that the client is happy, securing future collaborations with them, and so on. And, on the flip side, hard technical skills are not that important: as long as you can produce something that works in a reasonable time and sell it well you will be fine.
Requirements aren't very specific since there is a relatively heavy focus on communication and soft skills, and since consulting companies hire lots of fresh graduates the bar for juniors is not so high. It's important to have wide range of interests and shallow knowledge since that increases the number of clients you can be sold to. You are (implicitly) expected to work longer hours than usual and grow quickly though, as I said earlier the good ones can earn 90k per year within five years of graduation.
Do you foresee being able to purchase a home in the next 10-15 years? I think the problem with renting for a long time (I'm a renter, my wealth is growing in other investments) is assets are inflating in value, housing is becoming more and more expensive.
If you can't buy now, with "significant disposable income", will you be able to buy later? That is, if you care for home ownership at all.
FAANG/SV engineers could buy a home pretty much in any major city after some years in the industry. I have heard that is not the case in Munich, Frankfurt, Zurich, etc...
As whole houses sell for 1 or 2 million euros that seems a bit of a stretch, maybe possible in a longer time span and a good career in management (we are both early stage). But smaller 60 square meters apartments sell for about 500k and are well within reach with two salaries in my opinion.
But for the places with those well known companies it's a good way to check salaries across location. (Which should still be a proxy for overall market)
Unfortunately not true. Just because some FAANG in the area will be able to pay you €150k+ TC, doesn't mean all local companies will automatically try to match that. You might be surprised how wide the TC gap is between FAANG & Co. and local players who might laugh in your face if you ask for more than €80k. Simply put, most EU companies can't match such levels of pay but will have no shortage of talent.
I have and can validate its fairly accurate numbers for FAANG / SV salaries but not so much European ones.
It also gets hairy once you compare pre-tax (US Salaries) with post-tax (EU salaries) and different costs of living.
I use a combination of levels.fyi, Payscale/Glassdoor plus Numbeo / Nomadlist to keep running the numbers around how much I could save by moving elsewhere.
> I have a Romanian passport so it's easy to jump over the pond but I'd love my US residency and all the years I put in to be able to start switching jobs more easily. I don't want a ridiculous amount of wealth but I'd love to have a head start and secure financial freedom for my family.
That is 100% totally understandable, and is basically the American dream, as you know.
No matter what, as soon as you can: After you hold your green card long enough, make sure to naturalize as a United States citizen. A lot of green card holders never bother to become US citizens. I always encourage people I know to do so. But, generally speaking, once you are a citizen, you are a citizen: it can never be taken away from you. We need people like you and your family as US citizens.
I would get a lawyer, but many lawyers can be sketchy. My best advice would be to go to the Embassies of Switzerland/France/Germany/Canada/UK/etc. to the US websites' and go to their "legal advice" page. There usually is a PDF list of American lawyers. On there, it will specify their area of practice. Obviously, you want an immigration lawyer.
Lawyers can be sketchy, so you need to vet them out for any possible red flags, such as "positive counter-reviews", "any bad reviews", or "painting an overly perfect picture of oneself". If they are involved in commerce associations or any sort of business association (especially if it involves complicated laws or situations), this can be a good sign, as they have to get along with others and just get stuff done in general. From there you make a list of prospective lawyers, email them, and go from there. I would also ask for references, both on a professional level and from actual clients, too.
It's interesting you say that, I last decided to skip US citizenship due to the fact that the IRS will haunt you for taxes (Double tax treaties, foreign tax credits yeah yeah but it's a hassle) and as mentioned in other replies, being a "US Person" is such a hassle for opening foreign bank or brokerage accounts.
I value the point of citizenship and passports but getting the US one seems to be shooting yourself in the foot if you don't ever see yourself moving back to the US. I know for sure if I leave, I'm not planning to retire anywhere in the US so it would be a tough sell to go for citizenship.
> It's interesting you say that, I last decided to skip US citizenship due to the fact that the IRS will haunt you for taxes (Double tax treaties, foreign tax credits yeah yeah but it's a hassle) and as mentioned in other replies, being a "US Person" is such a hassle for opening foreign bank or brokerage accounts.
Sorry, but this is not true at all.
I was being dead serious about suggesting that you might as well naturalize as a United States citizen.
You are already liable for US taxes for at least the next 10 years abroad, from the date you have been judicially determined to have abandoned your green card. You do not acquire this status by not fulfilling the requirements of your green card, either: you need to fill out an I-407 form or a Letter of Intent to Abandon Residence Status. Then, at some point, you receive a judicial determination and have to pay taxes for the next 10 years to the US, from that date, while abroad.
> You are already liable for US taxes for at least the next 10 years abroad, from the date you have been judicially determined to have abandoned your green card.
So I can't find this mentioned anywhere in your link or online. That's the first I hear of it, do you have a source?
There is an expatriation tax if you've been a GC holder for 8 out of 15 years, which I haven't been so I'm fine to leave without any hassles of worrying about taxes.
I don't see the point in US citizenship, I have 2 other strong citizenships that cover all of my needs, unless I decide to stay in the US.
It looks like I don't want to stay in the US long enough to make citizenship worth it, right now.
My apologies: I linked the wrong source. But, my info is otherwise correct. What I mentioned does not even have anything to do with the expatriation tax for green card holders.
* Form I-407 or Letter of Intent to Abandon Resident Status
Both of my parents were American accountants, and my father was a CPA. So, I guess I have a different outlook on taxes. I do not see them as a big deal except for the fact that I take paying my taxes very seriously, and obviously I do my best when giving information. I always pay them on time. But, I just look at it like "paying my dues to society", whether or not I actually agree with it--which in this case really does not matter--as it is due, legally.
I am just stating this from purely a personal perspective, so please do not be offended. I know we all have different feelings about being taxed, double-taxed, etc.
By the way: I am not afraid of renouncing my US citizenship, even though I am culturally American and it would be harder to access my family.
The only reason why I do not: I have 2 rare immune-mediated neurological diseases affecting my peripheral nervous system. One of them I nearly died from, and is considered to be very rare, with case reports and small cohorts, at best, in the literature. The disease I have was discovered via National Institutes of Health (NIH) grant funds, given to the Mayo Clinic, in the early 2000s. Ultimately, as problematic as the US is, they saved my life, along with the few thousand people diagnosed with this illness worldwide.
I'm absolutely not offended, it's just the first time I hear about this and I can't find any supporting information about it. Even in the last link you provided, americanoverseas.org, I still can't find any mention of owing taxes to the US, 10 years after relinquishing your green card.
The only thing that pops up time and time again is the expatriation tax which only applies if you had your GC for 8 years.
I'm really sorry about your neurological diseases, it's such a shame US healthcare is in shambles for the general populace.
> But, generally speaking, once you are a citizen, you are a citizen: it can never be taken away from you. We need people like you and your family as US citizens.
Naturalized citizens can lose citizenship if it is determined they lied on their application. This is unlike those who inherited citizenship via birth.
The pandemic has thrown everything up in the air but there's still plenty of work in tech, mostly but by no means exclusively in Dublin.
You've got recognisable names like Microsoft, Amazon, Stripe etc, but also a large amount of tech jobs in staid banks and insurance companies, as well as a fairly healthy amount of startups and other small and medium sized enterprises.
Pay is good. Assuming your housing situation is ok, you can have a decent career and a stereotypical comfortable middle class existence - mortgage, car, a foreign holiday every year (with 20-something days of annual leave per year) and the possibility of putting your kids through college without either loans or maintenance grants.
Beyond pay, and not getting too far into social safety nets and GINI coefficients etc, it appears to be common to get fired with no notice in the USA. That level of insecurity is rare in Ireland, and pretty much unheard of in any office job.
> This means that there is a strong social safety net, and we take care of the vulnerable. I do not have to worry about the cost of my medical care or other social needs. I pay my taxes, do my part as a citizen, and I know I will be taken care of.
Are you sure you're in the same Croatia as the rest of us?
I am semi retired (unemployed) living in Romania, but you'd likely want to be in Portugal for the cost of living, weather, and food. Also they have a ten year tax friendly program called Non Habitual Residency. I'm currently aiming for Portugal.
Yes, salaries are low all across the EU (Switzerland is not in the EU) and taxes are high, so ideally I recommend working remotely and bouncing between Portugal and Spain or finding a post retirement hobby (easier said than done).
(By the way I did consider Croatia too as it is similarly inexpensive, but Romanian is an easier language and I already knew people here from previous travels).
That's interesting, I have a Romanian passport but didn't live long enough there to actually get a feel for what life is like day to day. I think being a worker and having to have a job in RO would be soul crushing, from what I hear from friends and family.
Portugal seems a great in between if you can swing a remote job, a lot of tech workers prefer it for the low cost of living and climate, like you said.
It seems working remotely is the best option but I'm not sure how feasible that is long term and with timezone differences.
>I think being a worker and having to have a job in RO would be soul crushing, from what I hear from friends and family.
Overall, for most of the population, yes. However, if you're a tech worker, no, as that puts you in the top %10 of earners.
In many ways, Romania is like the US, high inequality, low taxes, and poor quality social services, unless you have a corporate job, then you can live like a King as the huge pay(relative speaking) and job perks give you an edge over everyone else.
This made me chuckle, I often compare California to Romania (since I know both places well) and can contrast the corruption, money waste, terrible infrastructure and inequality in a way that friends / family that moved from Romania can't agree with.
They always paint Romania as a third world *hole that's incomparable to the US/Canada or other "civilized" countries.
I follow the news, political developments and have friends there so I'm aware how far it's gotten in the last 2 decades, I'm pretty proud of the direction they're heading in.
The only caveat I have for you with living in RO vs the US is the healthcare system. Even if you opt for private care, the really good doctors, the emergency procedures that need to be done in public hospitals are a disgrace. At least in the US if you "live like a king", you can pay for a king's level of healthcare.
In RO, you literally have to fly to Germany/Switzerland or elsewhere to get quality healthcare and if you have a really bad accident, you may not make it to the hospital to get the care you need.
That's the one thing keeping me from moving to RO today, even with its extremely low cost of living. I can't risk my family's health on the disastrous healthcare system there.
> In RO, you literally have to fly to Germany/Switzerland or elsewhere to get quality healthcare and if you have a really bad accident, you may not make it to the hospital to get the care you need.
> That's the one thing keeping me from moving to RO today, even with its extremely low cost of living. I can't risk my family's health on the disastrous healthcare system there.
I have the same issue here in Croatia, and I spend a lot of time on the islands. There is no such thing as medivac (air rescue) here.
The solution to this is to get an International SOS plan, which covers pre-existing conditions. I know all about this because my sister was an expat living in one of the most corrupt countries in the world, Equatorial Guinea (Africa). If one became gravely ill there, you would be medevac-ed to Munich, Germany. Hers was an employer sponsored plan though.
You only have to declare one of your nationalities (as in citizenships) when filling out the forms, and I confirmed that this was proper procedure (you can also reside in the country of your nationality under the terms and conditions of the expat plan). I declared myself as a United States citizen. You also state where you plan on living the majority of the year (Croatia). The expat plan is something like $750/year, which may seem expensive. However, if the incident is severe they will also repatriate you back to your home country of citizenship. In my case, this would be the United States. I want to be repatriated where my family is, if I get gravely ill.
If you get very sick in Croatia and need to be medevac-ed out, they fly you to Vienna, Austria.
Based on my experience of New Jersey vs Romania, healthcare and consumerism options are the major differences.
For healthcare I'd just plan to go to Poland for serious care. As for consumerism, you can't beat the US for Amazon Prime, craigslist, or ebay (my personal favorite).
The only thing that's cheaper here in Cluj is housing. Food is slightly cheaper depending on category, but many things are more expensive. Including gym memberships.
Yeah you can't beat the US for consumerism. If you love things and have money to burn, it's great. I got into a ton of expensive hobbies and I also use CL/eBay/FB Marketplace to score great deals and pass on good deals to others.
Hard to plan to go to Poland for serious care if you have a life threatening emergency. If Romania figures out its healthcare problem, it could be a serious contender for me to live in, in the future.
Bear in mind that wealth is relative. The differences in cost of living are dramatic between countries so a much smaller wealth in one country can be much larger in another.
Insurance for the future. Maybe I get bored of software, maybe I want to take a few years off and not have to work. Maybe I won't be able to "unprogram" the consumerist habits I picked up in the US and will fall back into buying things I don't really need (like Hi-Fi, photography equipment, gaming rigs, TVs, etc...) and will need funds to continue doing that.
I don't know, I guess I spent too much time in the US and deeply concluded that it's better to have wealth than to not have it. I have a lot of reflection to do.
Even adjusting for cost of living, if I bring $1M over to the EU, I couldn't stop working for the next 50 years, I would need a few for $xMs for that.
Yes, stopping all work for the next 50 years right now wouldn't be realistic with that. But then again, you're definitely not going to be stopping work while trying to accumulate more wealth either.
Correct but with an optimistic projection of working for 5-10 more years, I could stop working forever, unless I want to work for fun / enjoyment (or say no to crappy jobs) and then move to the EU.
If I move to the EU now and take a hit in income, that will become impossible.
Germany median salary is 42k EUR (and I guess one of the highest in the eurozone, Portugal seem to be 25k USD), depending on your lifestyle, I think many people could actually retire with 1M...
Once you extrapolate that to software engineers, levels.fyi says you can expect 80k EUR/yr in Germany [1] which I think is after-tax.
If that is true, it's more than I thought it would be and I think if you found a good job you enjoyed, making 80k EUR/yr on top of having $1M saved could give you a secure financial future.
A million dollars is 20k per year for fifty years. You can life pretty well off that in one of the poorer European countries, or in a poorer area of a richer European country.
You can "safely" withdraw between 3-4% of your $1M for 30 years and never lose that $1M, assuming you keep that money invested and it grows at an average of 7%/yr.
$30-40k/yr, pre-tax, would still be ok for one person in Portugal / Spain or other lower cost of living places, right NOW. Once you add in a spouse, children, things start to get hairy.
Once you consider that these places are currently undervalued and their cost of living could increase dramatically in the future, that $30-40k/yr no longer seems as safe.
I would personally aim for $2M+ to feel safe that I won't have to be forced to work a job I hate for the next 30 years.
Well, you don't need a lot of money. The exception would normally be medical needs but those are generally covered if you're in the system. You may want things that cost a lot of money, but this is a different problem, with more than one solution.
(I'm not advocating curtailed wants or frugality. My life is pretty comfy and I like it that way.)
Not every place in EU has tax-funded universal healthcare. It's the minority actually. Most countries require you to pay health insurance - and that's certainly not cheap if you're a software engineer as it's based on your income - e.g. 13.5% of my pre-tax (25%) income where I live; that makes it more expensive (absolutely - without income adjustment) than the most expensive premium US health insurance plan for me, without any of the perks. And where is universal healthcare there are also enormous taxes (>50%).
Real estate is much more expensive in major European cities compared to US major cities (income-adjusted), and is taxed a lot on top of income taxes. And rural real estate is much cheaper in the US both absolutely and income-adjusted.
Vehicles and fuel are more expensive here too + again major taxes. Traveling by public transport is reality only in major German and French metropolitan areas, you need a car everywhere else as soon as you need to cross the city border at least semi-regularly.
And yet not even coronavirus tests are free here, as opposed to many places in the US.
> But, it is way, way, less stressful living here, just in general. Americans have no idea. The taxes are worth the peace of mind along with the stability it gives society.
I don’t know what it is about Europeans on American websites telling us how great it is to have 1/3 less PPP and higher taxes, but I sure as hell don’t want my taxes any higher.
A grand total of none of my international friends have anywhere near the wealth, nor earning potential I do, and they never will. It’s an exceedingly large, compounding edge.
American policy makers can’t even use our existing tax revenues in fiscally responsible ways as it is. Why would I vote for more taxation?
Everyone knows our healthcare system is asinine. It doesn’t require more money to fix.
> A grand total of none of my international friends have anywhere near the wealth, nor earning potential I do, and they never will. It’s an exceedingly large, compounding edge.
That's because most of us are not obsessed with wealth. We tend to be satisfied with some level of comfort and security and focus on other things in life. I guess that's a cultural thing.
> Everyone knows our healthcare system is asinine. It doesn’t require more money to fix.
It's not only about health care, but other aspects such as how the society is structured, poverty, incarceration rates, access to education, homelessness, etc.
Again, probably a cultural thing but Europeans seem to care more about these matters than Americans and so we structure and drive our politics and legislature towards addressing these issues.
During the covid crisis I’ve stopped telling my American friends about the situation here in Australia. There’s been some political mud throwing about which state managed it best - but we brought the numbers to zero, and have done it as a nation several times now. Since covid, talking to my friends in the USA about Australia feels like punching down.
You might have more earning potential in the US, but I’d much rather make a bit less money and live in a country with a functioning healthcare system, a welfare system, a (mostly) functioning legislative branch, much less police violence and racial tension and less political polarisation. I just don’t feel anxious living here. No matter what happens I’ll be ok. In Australia you don’t need to be super rich in order to feel safe.
I think there is a lot of fundamental attribution error going around when trying to explain relative success at controlling COVID. There are states with little of the infrastructure for public health management you've touted in Australia that have also controlled the disease. There are states with the same infrastructure (e.g. UK) which haven't. Australia is also incomparable to the United States with 1/10th the population, comparably little cross border travel, etc.
My guess is it will be years before we correctly understand exactly what worked or didn't and why.
A lot of the science is already in on this. The most effective interventions are hygiene (washing hands), masks, social distancing and contact tracing (and quarantining close contacts). This is low tech stuff, which is one of the reasons many poor countries have been able to do very well at controlling the pandemic.
Apparently the #1 predictive factor for a country to have good health outcomes is trust between the citizens and their government. Small countries have done better than big countries, but that may be a side effect of public trust generally being better in smaller countries.
> Since covid, talking to my friends in the USA about Australia feels like punching down.
Funny, talking to my friends in Asia (to which I consider Australia/NZ to be a part of) it feels the exact same way!
I can tell them how I go anywhere without wearing a mask, some people make snide remarks but that's it - while they have to declare their address in restaurants, and face all kind of restrictions like not being able to return to their country without a quarantine.
> I’d much rather make a bit less money and live in a country with a functioning healthcare system
With money, in the US you'll get the best healthcare money can buy (or you can travel to Asia to get it cheaper)
For the rest (welfare etc), I really prefer the US way - it feels better to me to have people strongly incentivized to behave, yet free. I guess we are different.
I’m not going to lie, it’s been tough sometimes. Masks are no big deal. It’s the occasional city wide lockdowns have been the worst. But the USA has just shy of 500 000 deaths. (There are 440k men/430k women in SF, if that gives you a sense of the scale of the tragedy). We only had 909 deaths in Australia.
Maybe to you those deaths were worth it so you didn’t have to wear masks? That’s horrific, and I don’t know how to respond to that. I suppose we are different.
> Maybe to you those deaths were worth it so you didn’t have to wear masks? That’s horrific, and I don’t know how to respond to that. I suppose we are different
Yes, we are different, because they are fully acceptable to me. Even 2x, 3x or 10x more. Even if I was at risk myself. Freedom is not negotiable.
> Since covid, talking to my friends in the USA about Australia feels like punching down.
Please do not take offense to this. This will be infuriating, but I want you to understand the American mindset that causes this behavior.
Please know that I am found of Australians: In primary school, 2 of my neighbors were Australian, and I played with them every day. They were wonderful, very kind, loyal friends, and their family was amazing. In high school, one of my best friends at the high school was Australian, along with her sister. They were always kind to me and talked to me about thoughtful things. I have serious health problems, and one time I had a medical emergency (severe low blood glucose reaction) at school after hours, and her older sister took care of me for a what really was a long time, before adults could take over. I will be forever thankful to her and her family.
Everybody knows that Australia can be very cliquish, which really sets Americans off. While Australia does quite a phenomenal job of taking care of and looking after its citizens, if you are not a citizen then there is outright hypocrisy on that standard. This is awful to say, but it is true.
Just an example: you must be very healthy to become either a permanent resident or an Australia citizen (naturalizing via work--not marriage or descent), as there are medical inadmissability clauses in the immigration laws. Basically, if you cost more than $8,000 AUD/year total for both health care and other related social services, then you are medically inadmissable to Australia. If one of your immediate non-citizen family members in Australia exceeds this cutoff, then all of you cannot live permanently in Australia. It is brutal.
You also pay a lot for housing in Australia, and things are just not as well built or insulated there. It is an engineering problem, and Americans find it appalling. I posted this link in an r/IWantOut post, and prior to doing so, I said, "Australia truly is a great country, and its people take care of its own citizens, but there is going to be a serious housing crisis that is going to occur in the future. You need to be aware of this issue." Anyways, I got a TON of flak for it, by Australians, and rightfully so, as Australia is a great country:
Americans tend to find the "happy-go-lucky attitude" of some Australians to be appalling. In that sense, many Americans find Australians to be jarring and they get under Americans' skin.
As for American hypocrisy: Americans think that they are the center of the world. Many Americans think that we are the best country in the world, which is laughable at best. Those people are in for a rude awakening in the future. But, my point is, that in the past 4 years of Trump, American Empire has declined in reality about 40 years, due to Trump's "work".
Also, Americans are big on their BS "freedoms", in totally hypocritical ways. One could write books about it. It would actually be great satire.
We always had the strategic capacity, at least in theory, with our institutions and infrastructure (if Trump was not our president) to at least attempt the elimination strategy, although places like Australia and New Zealand have natural geographical advantages.
The problem is that very few Americans are willing to take pain in solidarity with others, for a short period of time, to potentially eliminate such a terrible infectious illness that will cause everyone even more pain long term.
In America, there is always a baseline level of fear and anxiety too, present all the time even pre-pandemic, which a president like Trump knows how to appropriate in "hits" of pain onto the right groups of people. Americans expect a lot of pain, just in general.
I agree with your criticisms of Australia. And I have some more. I found it extremely enlightening moving to the Bay Area for a couple years then moving back to Aus. When I moved home I saw my home country in a new light. Australia feels insular, small minded and chronically unambitious.
And that anxiety you mentioned that’s strangely ever present in the US disappeared when I came home. I was on a bus and had the revelation that nobody was going to try to talk to me. It was bliss.
The lockdowns we had in Melbourne to keep covid down were utterly harrowing and I think a lot of us are still processing that experience. We gave up some freedoms temporarily to save lives. It was a temporary sacrifice of personal freedoms, because not making that sacrifice would have been worse. Letting covid out would have risked the lives of my parents, and I would have risked long covid - and who knows how many complications down the road. And it’s proof we as a nation can take collective action when we need to. I worry that the US might not have been able to do what we did to contain the virus, even if the fatality rate was 20x higher than it is. And that’s a tragedy from the country that invented the internet and landed people on the moon.
> The lockdowns we had in Melbourne to keep covid down were utterly harrowing and I think a lot of us are still processing that experience. We gave up some freedoms temporarily to save lives. It was a temporary sacrifice of personal freedoms, because not making that sacrifice would have been worse. Letting covid out would have risked the lives of my parents, and I would have risked long covid - and who knows how many complications down the road. And it’s proof we as a nation can take collective action when we need to. I worry that the US might not have been able to do what we did to contain the virus, even if the fatality rate was 20x higher than it is. And that’s a tragedy from the country that invented the internet and landed people on the moon.
I definitely agree with all of this.
Yeah, sorry my fellow peers in America are being pricks, and are being so mean that they are not just inflicting pain—-but are retraumatizing Australians (usually strangers) on the internet.
In the US, sadly, if somebody dies of coronavirus, then they are really nothing more than a statistic. It is sad but true. A lot of this existed before big tech, but big tech brought it to a totally different level.
I agree that America probably would not come together in solidarity to stop a virus 20 times more fatal. I have been so worried about where America has been going for the past 6 years especially.
Even if we do somehow get our act together, we will need profound structural change. We will need to flood our politics with ambitious positive plans in general in the future to stop this kind of stuff.
Also, the first 5 years of life determines many outcomes in life. It can set up a child to have an authoritarian personality for life, for example. To stop this, our government needs to put extreme emphasis on young children’s development so this kind of stuff can never happen again. I mean like hardcore investments, projects, and human rights towards the best development of young children.
The depths of how far low it can go are profoundly deep.
I don't mean to be rude but please look at that above link and understand how poor you as a citizen of USA are. It's frustrating to come from a country thats ~3X as wealthy as the USA in terms of median wealth (i'm Australian) and see the idea that higher taxes are an issue. The higher taxes are on the very wealthy. Median wealth captures this. The USA fucked up somewhere along the way and taxed the poor (those <1million a year) and this is why you are posting what you are posting. More taxes are ok if they are on the rich.
> what it is about Europeans on American websites telling us...
There's this strong sentiment among Americans that I see on social media so often these days that the Internet is somehow an American thing and we need to watch our mouths or get off their lawn.
These figures are influenced by real estate prices, equity market prices, exchange rates, liabilities, debts, adult percentage of the population, human resources, *natural resources* and capital and technological advancements, which may create new assets or render others worthless in the future.
Sorry dude, but my country’s vast stores of natural resources don’t exactly help me afford my mortgage payment next month.
That list certainly doesn’t reflect the average person’s disposable wealth. I’ve lived in two of the countries that rank “higher” than the US and in no way is the average person more wealthy. Not even close. In fact I’d say the average person in one of those countries has about half the disposable wealth of the average American.
You can argue about prices in Sydney all you want but i moved from Sydney to the USA and the situation isn't any better. In fact it's a lot worse. House prices in California are just as crazy. The wealth discrepency is also more obvious. Shanty towns under bridges worse. Like the 10 or so tents you see in Sydney's hyde park don't compare to the 3 miles in San Francisco of tents. Obviously there's benefits if you're in tech to being in the USA as that's where the market is but other than that it's far worse. The insane taxation system in the USA is not helping here either. There's an obvious need for the USA to look to countries like Australia and adopt our methods of governance but the assumption that the USA is best is unfortunately preventing this change.
What I meant was my country’s vast wealth in the form of natural resources hardly helps me pay for my day to day expenses. What matters is my income and my personal, disposable wealth. Which your ranking is not measuring.
That’s why you have bizarre numbers like the average Australian having 3x the wealth of Americans.
It also doesn't measure resources. The median wealth is the assets at disposal for the average citizen. eg. if they sold their homes, cars etc. Australia has 3x the wealth which isn't bizzarre. It's new and hard to grasp for a lot of people since this has only happened since 2008. But the USA has fallen. It's fallen a lot. The typical US citizen is far far poorer than people from many other countries. This is an objective fact. It's also obvious to anyone who see's the USA in its current state. Things are bad. They need to change.
Read your link and what I quoted. It does measure natural resources and a bunch of other “wealth” that goes far beyond personal, disposable wealth.
You basically referenced a link you didn’t read.
And like I said, when you look at the ranking it doesn’t make sense unless they did include things beyond personal wealth. You really think the average Spaniard is wealthier than the average Norweagean?
Sorry for the "downvotes are the disagree button" that you are experiencing for raising good and interesting discussion points, and frankly calling out misleading numbers that were posted. I didn't know that the average German was worse off and poorer than the average person from Greece (I guess finally the wealth transfer from Germany to Greece is being reflected in the numbers! - kidding, kind of).
That reinforces the whole point i'm making. The USA is wealthier per person. The USA is poorer on median wealth. This occurs because the wealth is concentrated in a small number of extremely wealthy people whilst the typical person is poorer. This can be easily fixed to the benefit of the majority with higher taxes on the ultra rich.
Poorer than Australia? Sure whatever. I’m just glad we are way ahead of countries like Germany, Finland, Denmark, Sweden, and the Netherlands. Maybe they should adopt our style of government to improve.
What am I reading? No wonder the OP is frustrated. Rightfully so.
Just because the median citizen is “only” in the top 25 countries in the world, doesn’t mean that what the OP said is incorrect.
It’s also difficult to do proper comparisons. Notice anything out of the ordinary in that list? Check out the population of the countries. Of course Australians are wealthy, they live on a continent nearly the size of the US with the population of L.A. county. That’s a lot of resources to go around for a small number of people.
I echo the OP in the constant anti-American sentiment I find on the internet being frustrating. “Your healthcare sucks, your taxes suck, look at how poor you are because of this chart”.
A lot of that doesn’t even reflect reality for many people. Let’s talk about healthcare. My experience in healthcare is I schedule an appointment at the university medical center, get extremely high quality care, and that’s that. I pay $0 for co-pays, or for medicine. Other people with health insurance can do that too. Obviously we have a healthcare problem in the U.S., which is why even to my own personal detriment I support UHC, but the experience people have in the U.S. varies widely. The U.S. government is responsible for like 70% of U.S. healthcare expenditures.
Ask yourself, why does the U.S. make citizens file taxes if they live abroad? I wonder if it has anything to do with people becoming massively wealthy and then conveniently living in another nearby country so they don’t have to pay taxes? Or maybe someone works at a company and that company can just relocate them somewhere cheap so they can avoid taxes? I’m not sure, but I hear a lot of “people in America need to pay taxes” but then they also get mad when the government makes people living in other countries pay income taxes. Why should it matter if you live in Japan as an American? You’re still a citizen. If you don’t want to pay taxes then give up your citizenship. How are we supposed to pay for healthcare for example if we allow lots of people to exempt themselves? And the U.S. exempts the first $108,000 of that income. What’s the big deal? That you have to report it? How can we fight corruption if we don’t even make people report their income?
The tax brackets are the point i'm making. Australia literally has 0% for the lowest bracket whereas the USA starts at 10% even on the lowest wage earners. The difference is made up for in the higher brackets. This boosts median wealth for a nation whilst it doesn't affect the average wealth per person. Having the median wealth higher so that there's a functioning middle class is a good thing.
> The USA fucked up somewhere along the way and taxed the poor (those <1million a year) and this is why you are posting what you are posting. More taxes are ok if they are on the rich
Speak for yourself! I prefer not to be taxed, so I'd rather have the poor taxed than the rich.
> being able to work remotely in the EU for a US based company is a huge deal. I just have to get the US based employer to agree to use a payroll company as an intermediary to deal with payroll taxes
Can you expand on this point? Fellow US-EU dual citizen and cultural American here, looking to do the same thing, for similar health reasons.
Where does the power of the dual citizenship come from? If I have a passport each to two countries A and B, and am attempting to enter country C - is the benefit that I can present myself as a citizen of B and will be bound by some B-C covenants, regardless of whether I am a citizen of A, or is it from the fact that C doesn't know that I'm associated with A and only knows about my B loyalty because of the passport I presented?
Mostly the former, if they offer a 1 year visa to A citizens but a 10 year visa to B citizens, you can say "I'm a B citizen!" and get the 10 year visa.
Hiding the fact you're an A citizen is usually only helpful in hostage/terrorist situations which you'd probably want to avoid in any case.
That's what I assumed is the case, but my question is about how much data each country might have on the citizens of other countries, and whether that would affect this arrangement.
I was thinking specifically of the certain countries where you needed to hide the fact that you have been to Israel.
Or, for example, to Iran - where Americans need special government babysitters to visit the country but the Swiss don't. Wouldn't the Iranians want to monitor a Swiss-passport-carrying American as much as any other American?
Everybody involved in this (serious) game knows that people can have multiple passports and that the ones with disadvantageous information are usually not shown. There is indeed an ongoing risk that authorities get information some way or another (flight records, informants, data breaches, social networks) and start connecting dots. Intelligence services probably do that all the time to keep tabs on operatives of other countries.
In the Iran case, the safe way seems to disclose the double citizenship and accept the babysitters. As a Swiss, I would clarify with the Swiss embassy whether they can intervene in case the double citizenship causes further problems. It seems likely, as the person would still be a Swiss citizen. It all depends how much hassle it is to sour the diplomatic relationship with Switzerland.
As always it depends. If country C requires visa (ahead of travel) for passport holders of country B, but Visa free travel for passport holders of country A, you can just enter with your country A passport. No problem for country C to know this.
But remember the travel ban for Muslim country citizen in the US? There being citizen of B will in all cases prevent you from entering (except, of course you criminally lying plus intelligence agency screwup)
Spain offers an easier pathway to citizenship for citizens of Ibero-American countries (basically Latin America) and that includes Puerto Rico.
The idea is that, if you're an American, you could get PR citizenship status with one year and then Spain would give you citizenship with only two years. You might consider the PR citizenship to not actually be a "citizenship" but merely a residency status (like how you might live in California or Washington).
Though technically, US citizens are also citizens of the state in which they reside. So, it's not really that different than what states do when considering things like in-state tuition at schools. So, yes PR has citizenship just as California and every other state has citizenship. I guess the difference is that PR considers that you don't lose the status of PR citizen when you cease to be a resident (at least if you were born there or a parent was).
Spain is also free to make the laws it wants to access their nationality. They could decide that those born in Florida should have easier access given Florida's historical connection to Spain. France was at least considering allowing anyone born in a place that used to be French territory to get citizenship. I believe Bill Clinton joked that he could move to France and run for President there since Arkansas was part of the Louisiana Purchase from France.
Anyway, it seems that PR citizenship needs US citizenship, but US citizens can gain PR citizenship with one year of residency.
It's really about being a resident of a state rather than a "citizen."
But it can lead to various edge cases, some of which are being spotlighted at the moment as people move around to get out of cities.
Basically you have this somewhat odd situation where you have free movement within the country and the federal government doesn't actually care where you spend your time. But you essentially need to be a state resident for purposes of things like a driver's license and paying state taxes and some states really want your money if you spend more than a bare minimum of days in the state. So there sort of a disconnect between federal rules and state rules.
PR citizenship is a thing (ie, a document) that PR will give you after one year, or sooner if you are indeed a Puerto Rican or if you have Puerto Rican parents. But the document will not work in conjunction with the Spain 2-year path to citizenship.
To be clear, the PR document says it's possible (for a mainland American), but Spain does not recognize it unless you're Puerto Rican.
Source: I tried it and went through the process. I'm from mainland US, lived in PR and now live in Spain.
>So if you parents aren't from PR, or if you do not speak spanish or what?
If you are born in Puerto Rico or your parents are Puerto Rican, you can get the PR citizenship document, which has little value, outside of using it to show Spain you're Latin American (after you've reached the 2-yr mark legally living in Spain). So, you'd need to be Puerto Rican in one of the ways described, plus find a way to legally live in Spain for 2 years, then present the document when you apply for citizenship.
>I'm thinking about moving to PR if there are more Covid restriction due to the new administration (curfew like in Europe)
PR's Covid restrictions at the height were just as bad, if not worse, than other places. But that depends on case numbers. Currently the situation is as follows (site):
If you can show enough funds to sustain yourself while in Spain, you can apply for a non-lucrative visa which means you won't be able to take a Spaniard's job but you can still work online for a company abroad. It's essentially a non-work visa. Funds you'll need to show, per year, are at around $27,000 (even if cost of living is way less). Initial visa is one year, renewal is two years, and the second renewal is also two years, which gets you to the five year mark where you can apply for permanent residency. After your first 183 days in Spain, in a calendar year, you are considered a Spanish tax resident, and Spain has rather high taxes. Under the US-Spain double taxation agreement, you'd pay taxes to Spain and then apply for a credit on your US taxes.
Spain is really locked down, internally, so if I were you, I'd wait til late 2021 to consider coming here. It's insane the amount of things I cannot currently do here, and have not been able to do for many months.
Although if you want to be in Europe and wait it out, try Albania. Americans can stay there as tourists, visa-free, for one year (due to the US having helped Kosovo in the 90s, where 90% are ethnic Albanians). It's cheap, beautiful, and has nice people. Check out Dabble and Travel's late 2020 YT videos on Albania. Georgia is another country where you can stay for one year, as an American.
Not trying to attack you, but I'm curious why you want to move to Spain when in this comment you say you really prefer the US way of operating surrounding the pandemic: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26215169
Disloyalty and parasitism. With no hard ties to the community, they treat it like a disposable. Look at how quickly they trashed San Francisco. Looks like Austin is next. I pray for them.
I think that is a valuable point. With respect to SF, I assume you are talking about transient tech workers. I’m not sure I agree with this. In my experience, SF natives are loud advocates of the broken public policies. I think the innumeracy that leads to careless spending and lack of accountability runs deep in both groups.
Thinking about it a bit more, I wanted to acknowledge that I think there’s also a challenge around knowledge. Unless transient population might have a deeper memory for what has worked in the past and not worked in the past, and be better able to hold people accountable.
With some of these people sitting on three passports, I doubt they'd put any deep history to use -- treating a town the same way many mutual funds treat a stock: "this company no longer meets our investment criteria" -- DUMP
I’m all for dual citizenships, but a downside nobody’s talking about is that you have to spend 5-10 years of your life in your new country to get it, not factoring in multi-year waiting times that may exist for processing citizenship. Essentially, you need to be comfortable migrating.
As they say, "If it was easy, everyone would be doing it."
I incidentally moved to Europe for work several years ago without any particular plans to pursue dual citizenship, but I stuck around long enough I'm almost eligible so now I'm going for it because it'd open a lot of doors.
In my case it wasn't a downside at all, as I love living here (moving from a high-crime city to virtually-no-crime was great, and I love the atmosphere/environment here) and although there are always challenges with migration, for me none of them were too bad. But I had good personal circumstances for migration (few domestic attachments). For others, it could be more of a hurdle.
You can accelerate 5-10 years to 3 months using pay for citizenship schemes. For example Grenada has one where you get citizenship and a passport in return for "donating" $150k USD to the government. Grenada's is interesting because you get visa-free access to China. Antigua and Barbuda are running a "50% off sale" (I kid you not..) where the cost is only $100k USD (normally $200k USD)
The post glosses over Canada by not mentioning Quebec. If you are in Quebec, chances of your getting a Permanent Residency is close to slim if you do not have French language proficiency. Thus, while living in Quebec for 5 years now, being a grad student, I neither qualify for PR nor citizenship by naturalization.
My point was mainly directed at both PR and naturalization aspects of Canada that was mentioned in this post. Even if you are not a student, the road to PR in Quebec is long if you do not have meet the language requirement. Typically you apply for Quebec Selection Certificate (CSQ) which is a pre-requirement for PR. This pre-requirement also has a pre-requirement nowadays, which is getting an invitation to apply for CSQ through ARRIMA (which has a yearly cap). In total,even if you are not a student, if you do not meet language requirement, it can take 3-4 years just to get the PR, and 3 more for citizenship. Thus, my point was against the classic misconception of “easy path to citizenship” of Canada made by this post (and frankly by a lot of people in general, as they tend to overlook Quebec).
People choosing Quebec to immigrate must be either fluent in French or stupid. Quebec immigration is perhaps one of the most arcane system and politically influenced. To compare it only takes 4 or 6 months to get a PR in rest of Canada if you have the right skills. In Quebec, even if you have the right skills and speaks French, it takes a minimum of 2 years if the red tape allows. If you do not know French with the right skills 3 to 4 years.
For some people the choice is governed by the educational institution. Sure, I could have applied to UofT but my research led me to McGill (and I’m frankly glad that happened).
While being a student, I can’t. Also, if your intention is to move to Quebec you are technically not eligible for PR in Ontario. However, many folks these days opt of this path though - apply for PR in Ontario from outside Canada using Express Entry, land in Ontario and stay for 6 months and then move to Quebec.
Foreign earned income exemption prevents IRS from taxing the first $108,700 in 2021.
The tax rate in Australia for first $18,000 is 0%, compared with 10-12% federal + X% state in the US so if you're a low income earner living abroad can save big on taxes.
If you are smart, driven, seek opportunity and wish to be on the cutting edge of innovation and access to capital: live in the US. You will be free to make choices optimal for yourself (retirement, health insurance, etc).
If you don't care about the cutting edge and want to feel safe at the cost of losing some freedom of choice: live abroad. I personally recommend Australia.
This is my experience. Neither is 'good' or 'bad'. It comes down to what you seek...
The premise of the article is to highlight benefits of second citizenship but what stands out in the examples are mostly situations of failings in governance and policy within the US.
More abstractly, I've argued that migration naturally follows from Lockian political thought. If government exists to serve the governed, then it stands to reason that if a government isn't adequately serving the governed (as some might argue to be the case in the US, but I appreciate this is up to personal interpretation), the governed has the right to choose a new government.
Historically we've seen this attempted through revolutions, but now with the advent of relatively easy/inexpensive international migration (by historical standards - not to mention the impossibility of revolutionary war today, but that's a different discussion), migration is a more peaceful alternative.
If you are in the continental US, Mexico is one of the easier places to go. (At least in non-pandemic years. I didn't look into it this past year.)
In the US, the fifty states are also different enough from each other that it may be easier to consider relocating within the US to find something more to your liking or more suitable to your needs. You won't need to apply for a visa or citizenship, etc. You can just find the weather, city size, etc that you like and go with a lot less paper work and jumping through hoops.
Our two children are 4 and 6, and they both hold four citizenships.
My wife is US American, I am German, my dad is Croatian and we've been living in Switzerland for almost 15 years.
When the kids were born, they both had US and German citizenship jus sanguinis. German passports arrived almost instantaneously. The US passports required us to visit the US embassy multiple times and fill out plenty of paper work.
Them gaining Croatian citizenship was more involved. First I needed to apply for it for myself through my dad. I also bought a second home in Croatia were we've spent most of our holidays. I also maintain a Croatian bank account that I use to cover local bills. It took several years and a good lawyer to get passed the beaucracy. Ultimately I received the Croatian passport and so did our children about half a year later.
After staying for over 10 years in Switzerland, my wife, my kids and I applied for Swiss citizenship. It cost us a couple of thousand US dollars, a clean record (no outstanding bills, no other credit issues, proof that you can take financial care of the family), proof of "proper integration" (like do I frequently visit the local pub... really!), a German language proficiency test for my wife, and a test for both of us showing that we understand the cultural, religious and political aspects of Swiss society. The process took exactly one year when we received our passports.
Was it all worth it? I think so. It is a liberating feeling to know that you can move between countries. We also wanted our kids to be able to choose for themselves where to live once they are grown up.
How is this legal? Most countries in the world disallow holding more than 2 citizenships. Do these countries know your kids are holding four? If they do not, they need to be informed.
There are exceptions to the rule (for reference see https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_citizenship). Generally, a lot depends on whether you acquired citizenship by descent or birth, or acquired it by naturalization. Also, there are agreements between countries that you must consider.
For example, had Croatia not entered the EU a couple of years ago, it would not have been possible most likely to aquire citizenship for our children without giving up German citizenship. That is because Germany permits multiple citizenship only if you obtained another citizenship by birth and/or the other citizenship is either one of an EU member country or Swiss citizenship. Some with Croatia, which generally allows citizens by descent to have multiple citizenship, but foreigners wanting to naturalize there must renounce their old citizenship (with exceptions, of course). Switzerland on the other hand has no such rules regarding multiple citizenship.
It's difficult to not inform the countries of your multiple citizenship unless you don't apply for passports. With each passport renewal you must also state your other citizenships if applicable.
Anecdote: Shortly after the first child was born, we wanted to visit our relatives in the US. Our child only had a German passport, which we thought would be OK to travel with (because, why not?). Well, as it turned out, once we arrived at US immigration, we were in big trouble. Because our child was automatically a US citizen by descent, she was also required to have a US passport to travel from abroad to the US. This is because formally the US does not acknowledge any of your other citizenships as long as you are US citizen.
My wife is from Hong Kong and we've both got US citizenship. To get HK residency as well as US citizenship, our kids would have to be born in HK. We don't actively live in HK, and your anecdotes are making me wonder how feasible this would actually be within the time frame of maternity leave.
The CBP immigration officer made an exception under the premise that we would expediently apply for the US passport at a local agency during our visit. We were grateful, because of course he could also have sent us back home...
Not entirely correct. With a Beibehaltungsgenehmigung you can also obtain other citizenships than what you mentioned and it doesn't need to be by birth. They do make you answer all sorts of questions though to give you that certificate.
Source: we went through it.
We also had a similar-ish experience passport wise while the kids had non-German passports only while we only had a German one. We held up the line of cars waiting to get on the ferry to England (going from the Netherlands) for quite some time while they asked and checked why some Germans were driving Canadian kids to England: o see the Scottish Highlands, duh :)
What GP meant was that USA treated the child as a US citizen by descent, in spite of the lack of a passport, which is why immigration mandated that the child should have been issued a US passport before traveling to the US. It's natural for a lot of countries that allow dual citizenship to mandate that you travel to said country with the passport of that place.
I completely understand and the two paragraphs in my comment are two separate things. One comments on the fact that they said you can only have another citizenship by birth if you want to keep the German one (false) and the other one reminded me of another sort of funny passport and different/dual citizenship situation from my life, which is why I said "similar-ish". Emphasis on "ish".
It seems to work out with this set of countries. Croatia lets you keep other citizenships if you claim the Croatian one via jus sanguinius. German citizenship is compatible with other EU/Swiss citizenships and citizenships acquired at birth. The US and Switzerland don't care that much. In practice, such webs of multiple citizenships can become tricky if one of the countries involved has mandatory draft, but it seems you can avoid the Swiss draft if you don't live there. Finally, I don't see why there would be a need to inform these countries about additional citizenships, unless they mandate it by law.
> it seems you can avoid the Swiss draft if you don't live there
I think you can apply for an exemption especially if were already subject to the military draft of your country of origin. You might also be exempt if you just gain citizenship after a certain age.
It's the opposite. Most countries don't have an opinion on other citizenships. A minority disallow you from having another, sometimes only after the 2nd. An even smaller minority require you to relinquish any other citizenships when gaining theirs.
It should be more legal if anything. The problem are countries like Japan/China/Korea which prevent you from holding any other citizenship at all. "Don't tell" is not really an option - if they find out they'll tear up your citizenship which can leave you with a big problem if you are living there or ever want to visit.
That’s wrong in the Japan case. Japan permits its citizens to hold both nationalities when the second one is acquired at birth. Moreover the government doesn’t hunt them in any way. Sources: multiple half-Japanese friends + the web.
Sentimental perhaps, because of my heritage, but definitely also practical advantages. For one, citizenship makes owning property in the respective country easier. Also, should my children ever decide to live in Croatia, they could do so, no strings attached. Who knows what the geopolitical future holds? Will the EU still exist in 20 years? Will Croatia still be a member? How will current and future refugee crises shape local immigration laws?
What you get for your US tax money is absolutely not worth having that passport if you have another good passport. I would give that one up (and likely will once I get my second).
> Just an FYI: one hiccup I heard of giving up your US citizenship is that banks didn’t recognize you could be born in USA but not a US citizen.
I had this issue just last month with a UK financial institution (Raisin). I tried to explain it but they obviously were not interested. I actually still have my citizenship (I'd love to renounce but that's currently impossible) but I felt it was worth pointing out their policy was unnecessarily discriminative.
Their responsibilities under FINCEN/FATCA are not prove anything, but just have suspicion or some reason to think you might be a "US Person" (not just US citizen, but US resident, or various other special situations).
Of course, the US claims to extra-territorial jurisdiction, and bullying of global financial institutions to enforce their crazy inter-planetary tax system, are totally preposterous.
like anything in life, there are tradeoffs. the US passport is great because it allows easy employment access to US tech companies, who pay absurd amounts of money; if you live outside the US for at least 330 days, you aren't taxed federally on the first $105K or so. this allows one to, for example, work 20-30 hrs/week while paying zero federal income taxes to take home around $105K. compare that to NYC: you'd need about $160K to take home $105K (!!), plus your post tax costs aro going to be high as hell - rent, restaurants, and so forth. worse, you're probably pulling 45ish hrs a week for that. i imagine SF is similar or worse.
such a setup allows one to build wealth and live an extraordinary life. i'd highly recommend it if you can swing it.
> US passport is great because it allows easy employment access to US tech companies, who pay absurd amounts of money;
US companies don't pay absurd amounts of money, companies in other countries are the once that don't pay enough. Look at how much wealth tech industry has generated (and still is) for the US companies and the US economy, I think they should pay even more.
Can't comment on how the taxes are spent but having US citizenship can give you access to their job market, in tech this can be a valuable benefit. Op's kids will be able to renounce their citizenship should they wish.
And hopefully they won't ever need a European bank account, or any other kind of financial service. All I ever signed up for, besides asking for citizenship, also explicitly asked for having US citizenship. Presumably checking that box is the immediate end of the application process.
That's the point. The question is specifically US citizenship because of the onerous reporting requirements it ensues that none of them want to deal with.
Banks ask everyone during application if applicant have a US citizenship, because of some anti-terror-funding law which non-American banks find onerous. Are you saying the kids should lie and deny being American?
Perhaps we're just lucky, but our Swiss bank was okay with it. We only had to guarantee to have a licensed US tax advisor prepare our US tax returns, filing requirements, FATCA/FBAR etc.
While Swiss banks are a bit crazy about anything related to the US (three years ago or so they just stopped accepting US checks from one month to the next, even though they had previously charged a crazy amount of money for it to be cashed in), I heard that banks in neighboring countries such as Germany are less concerned as long as your bank advisor follows some general guidelines.
I personally would not have gotten the US citizenship due to the negative tax consequences (global taxation), but to each their own. Unless you own substantial assets they can still renounce it in the future if interested.
The UK has a tax treaty with the US but it didn't stop one Boris Johnson being hit with many thousands in US taxes when he sold his house in spite of having lived in the UK most of his life.
Sorry for the issues with the travesty called the Croatian citizenship law. They are too busy not accidentally giving citizenship to the "wrong" people.
I will vote, no questions asked, for any party proposing a Law of Return for passports, no matter where the person intends to live.
As for the Swiss immigration officials, they are very competent, but I've gotten the impression they always want me to leave back where I came from. I love Switzerland anyway.
> It took several years and a good lawyer to get passed the beaucracy. Ultimately I received the Croatian passport and so did our children about half a year later.
Yeah, it is always advisable to get a Croatian lawyer when applying for Croatian citizenship, for example, even if you know exactly what you are doing.
Croatian law allows for loose arbitrary interpretations of the law by government servants in the bureaucracy. Even if you covered all of your bases and you did everything right, a lawyer stops such issues. Plus, Croatian law regulates exactly how much Croatian lawyers can charge, so it is not bad.
While my citizenship application went smoothly, even without the Croatian lawyer's assistance: If I were applying for US citizenship, for example, I would certainly use a lawyer, although for a different set of reasons. This is something to keep in mind for anyone considering emigrating anywhere, as the stakes can be high.
My guess is that OP’s issue is that only one parent was Croatian so citizenship wasn’t automatic but something to apply for.
Other than gathering all the paperwork, any idea what it’s like if both parents are Croatian? I understand citizenship is automatic not something that needs to be applied for?
It depends on which /Article/ OP is eligible for citizenship under, under Croatian citizenship law. The law has also been updated by our parliament in the past year. I do not want to make any assumptions about OP's situation. When applying for Croatian citizenship, it is important to explicitly state in your "biography" (Životopis) which Article you are applying under, basically as your first statement.
Many people in the diaspora abroad are eligible under Article 11, which can be relatively straightforward but with some "gotcha" tricks, that the bureaucracy will deny your citizenship over. It is vaguely mentioned in Article 11 (in Croatian), that people who emigrated abroad--or people who are direct descendants of these individuals may become citizens, with X Y Z etc. conditions listed as requirements. One "gotcha" for example, is that you have to provide documented official evidence (from at least one government source--certified, Apostilled, and translated into Croatian) that your emigrant family member permanently emigrated from former Yugoslavia. This is not explicitly mentioned as a requirement anywhere in the law. But, implicitly, based on the documentation you would be providing for your citizenship application, you would think that a government servant could determine that your family member established a life permanently outside of former Yugoslavia. The only place where I have found official information about this requirement is on one single Ministry of the Interior webpage, which is in Croatian. (You do not have to speak Croatian at all to become a citizen if you are from the diaspora.)
If you are in the diaspora abroad and your family is from Bosnia, most likely you are not eligible under Article 11, and you are instead eligible under Article 16, which is way more difficult to obtain. Article 16 is way more subjective and arbitrary too, when it comes to requirements, so you can have a tremendously hard time with the bureaucracy.
The articles of the citizenship law (translated into English) appear dubiously straightforward: https://www.refworld.org/pdfid/5ac3799f4.pdf [Note: This is not updated with this year's amendments to the law]
It is a mistake to read Croatian laws exclusively via English translations, regardless of whether they are official translations or machine translated. You miss a lot of context and detail that is needed for success. Croatian is very concise, clean, and direct (with respect to interaction/communication), in comparison to English. The grammatical cases in Croatian contain a lot of context that is missed via human translation and machine translation into English, too.
All applicants must understand that every single Croatian government servant is "thinking in Croatian" when you are interacting with them (or your application), even though their English is fine and they are fluent. When I showed up at the Croatian consulate in Los Angeles, I was told by the consul general (who is now an ambassador in a strategic location in an EU country, to establish better economic ties) that I could not become a Croatian citizen, because the family members that were emigrants were my 4 great-grandparents (I am half Croatian and I am legitimately culturally American and Croatian through my family) from Dalmatia (coastline Croatia), rather than a grandparent or a parent.
I did not expect this "news" but I had come prepared. I showed him the "family tree" I created, in Croatian. Croatian citizenship law allows direct lineal descendants of emigrants, to the third degree, to become citizens. So, he counted the generations of my family, starting with me, and determined, right then and there, that I was right and that I could become a citizen.
The Croatian consulate in LA is the friendliest of all of them, and they actually have a handout now for applying. They also recommend providing a fa...
I should be eligible under S. 4 where it makes it sound like I'm already a citizen. But yeah, I got the feeling proving it would still be a slow and painful process where it could take a while to gather it all. And I'd only have to deal with 2 parents' records (I think?). They'll be listed as hrvati, but finding originals of the birth certs is a question.
But kinda worried about a parent trying to make an EU trip if ETIAS ever goes live, and being unable to because they don't have an EU passport to travel on. So a lot of paperwork might get sorted out for me anyway.
Just haven't bothered to follow through with it unless I saw myself needing it. And it's increasingly likely I'll be eligible for another EU passport in the near future anyway.
> Just haven't bothered to follow through with it unless I saw myself needing it. And it's increasingly likely I'll be eligible for another EU passport in the near future anyway.
It's chump change to get Croatian citizenship. I only had to pay the Croatian government $235 in 2018 to get it. I was granted it in 10 months. Likewise, getting the putovnica (passport) is easy as can be. I got my Putovnica at the Croatian Los Angeles consulate in the US as soon as I found out about ETIAS.
Remember that Croatia is very pro-EU, for obvious reasons that should never be mentioned (war), so I look at it as a form of insurance. I also use my Croatian citizenship primarily for healthcare, by the way. That is an awful thing to say, but I do believe in the Croatian nation and project and I am definitely Croatian-American, from a cultural standpoint. I have things to bring to the table.
Since both of your parents are legally Croatian citizens, you become Croatian under Article 4 through a form called a "citizenship affirmation" (if I am correct..I could be wrong. You should call, not email the consulate. I would call the LA consulate. They guy who answers the phone is both a Croatian lawyer and an electrical engineer. He really knows what he is talking about when it comes to citizenship matters, and knows them backwards and forwards). This is probably the form you need to fill out for your citizenship application: https://mup.gov.hr/UserDocsImages//2020/Obrasci/Dr%C5%BEavlj...
As you can see, the requirements are written on the bottom of the page.
You will need the Domovnica (citizenship certificates) for both of your parents.
The Croatian government almost never tells you this, but they will retrieve Domovnica, rodni list (birth certificates), etc., for around $67/document. You do that through the consulate you are assigned to, and that is who you mail with the check. This is the form you fill out to get these documents. You also need to make a copy of a driver's license or a national ID card, and enclose it in the envelope, as this is required too. I would also include a written statement with all of this: http://www.mvep.hr/_old/Portals/US/download/ZAHTJEV_ZA_DOSTA...
Typically, the consulates keep this information about retrieving documents under wraps, unless you are friendly with them, and you catch their interest...
You are awesome! Sorry for the late reply. I have been sick.
It looks like you would be eligible under D). I am assuming you were born before 1991. If your parents do not have their Domovnica (Croatian citizenship certificate) yet, there is a process for doing that. But, the form that I provided in the link in the previous post is the same one that was provided under D).
But yeah, the laws are quite permissive. Having a friendly consulate makes all the difference. :-)
One thing you should be aware of: Canada does not do Apostille on documents. There is a special certification process that you have to do with your documents from Canada, which the consulate will help you with.
But, I do hope you apply for Croatian citizenship. It really is worth the effort, and if you have a helpful consulate, it makes all the difference.
Applying for US citizenship is actually pretty straightforward unless there is something weird about your case (eg a conviction). Nowadays it can take a lot of clock time. But the application itself (N-400) is easy.
Successfully filling in the application form became more difficult recently. I will soon apply and may well engage a lawyer to check my work since I’m not sure these rules have been rescinded yet. https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-trump-administra...
From what I understand of German law, all of you may have lost your German citizenship, depending on how you handled the Croatian and Swiss paperwork - Germany allows for dual citizenship at birth, however, obtaining any other citizenship means loss of German citizenship unless you have obtained a specific “Beibehaltungsgenehmigung” permit beforehand; so the German passports you have might be legally not valid if you haven't filed for and obtained this permit in both cases (which you hopefully have done).
Ah, okay, it does not apply for EU nations (like Croatia) and Switzerland, so it's not a worry for the OP and would matter only if other countries would be involved.
My parent moved with us to USA, when I was 18. That's my dark blue passport.
When I was working as Software engineer in California, our company got aquired and they asked us to relocate to Canada. I got PR here and soon will have light blue passport here.
Personal thoughts:
USA citizenship gives me best opportunities and access to best job market.
Canada citizenship gives me best social net: free health care, lower-cost education for my kids.
Russian citizenship gives me hope of protection from western injustice system (Snowden-style) or left cancel culture.
A second passport for a country that doesn't have an extradition treaty with the first, or better yet, an "enemy state", is a literal get-out-of-jail-free card.
I'm doing the opposite. I'm an American now living in Russia and will apply for long term residency then may apply for citizenship at some point once my language skills are better. I joke with my wife that in return for the green card I helped her earn, she helps me get a red card.
Russia has very low taxes for contractors, so that combined with the American foreign earned income tax credit results in tremendous tax savings. Also, I'm on the Black Sea so the weather is better than the rest of Russia. Downside is the political situation, obviously.
Russia is not exactly a country conducive to unfettered freedom of speech. What are you afraid of getting "cancelled"? Does your Russian passport exempt you from a Twitter ban for spreading misinformation?
Just like white/male privilege in America that is made up by people who like to blame others for their failures in life. Tons of victim complex in America.
It does exist, it's just not the shape most people think it is.
Older generations had different demographics, and white men are still in power from those generations... in no small part because they were the ones who were in the majority.
There remains a bit of blindness to the problems of non-white non-male persons among the 'ruling elites'... But these same cohort of leaders were pursuing a program of diversity, inclusion, and meritocracy over the last several decades.
To say white/male as default isn't a problem isn't exactly true (see, for example, how medical research has historically been conducted mostly on young white male volunteers), but to say that it isn't changing is also not exactly true -- demographics are changing in the US and the composition of institutions of power is also changing.
> One of the most difficult aspects of securing it was that the required documentation was a moving target; online sources conflicted with one another and each reviewer of your application seemingly applied their own new criteria as well. As a result, one of the most successful strategies was insistence; arguing with your reviewer and demonstrating how you did in fact have sufficient documentation and that they were wrong.
I had this exact same experience when renewing my contractor visa in Germany. I'd suggest bringing a printed copy of the requirements list from the German ausländerbehörde website with you whenever you show up to these appointments.
"The last time I looked, Estonia was not allowing anyone residing in the US to enter. A reasonable plan seems like it may be to travel to the UK/Ireland and then enter Estonia from there."
Oof, planning to circumvent procedures that countries established to protect their people. What a dick.
This is a mostly acceptable attempt at laying out lots of information related to the subject at hand, but I found it to be poorly researched, inaccurate in some places and missing a lot of info in others. It's a good enough jumping off point, however.
I've been abroad and living between countries for a decade, and one of my hobbies is researching every way an American can get second citizenship and, in particular, residency. That said, I admit I don't have a lot of knowledge about citizenship by ancestory.
Relocating is not a solution, you need to live sustainably where you are. Use wood for heat, pump water manually and grow/breed/hunt/conserve food yourself. The human made system will crumble surprisingly fast (starting with authority, with which borders really are made) and the only thing we ever made by inspiration from nature (the internet) will survive.
I started looking at getting my Italian citizenship last year and then COVID hit and I wasn't about to travel to the consulate in San Francisco to deal with it. Kids have both US and Italian though. I hope to do it at some point, although I have some nagging doubts about Italy making a grab for US assets that are probably unfounded.
Ha, I'm literally looking into the same thing as well. Somehow I was never informed that me and my kids are eligible. Its supposedly somewhat easier because because my mother is an Italian citizen and living. But I didn't want to have to travel somewhere either. I did read something about how you can get it done quickly while in Italy. I'm kicking myself having missed the chance to do that while I was there a couple of years ago. Open to any advice you might have.
I haven't looked at it for a while because we've just been holed up at home, but I seem to recall that the biggest PITA was having to do some kind of language test, and you can only do that via approved places. I speak the language fluently, so it's not a worry, just a hassle, but if you don't speak it well, you probably ought to brush up. Also: requirements may differ for different situations - I am married to an Italian woman. Sometimes things are different for children or other relationships.
Yes, that's what I understand too. I believe since I have a direct blood relation that neither me nor my kids would need to do those tests but my wife would. But I wasn't sure if I would need to visit the consulate. Definitely tricky to pull off these days.
Looks like you lived in Padova for quite some time. I was there for 6 months or so back in 2003. Would love to visit again. My family there is mostly in Milano but from Cuneo and Sardegna. :)
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[ 0.26 ms ] story [ 987 ms ] threadThese days, since citizenship is more an operation of law from a nation state and less a particular privilege granted by a ruling individual, such loyalty is less required. The vast majority of countries consider someone who has multiple citizenships, including the one of the country in which they are in, to be a citizen of solely that country (e.g. if you are a dual citizen of the United States and Australia and you are standing in the United States, the U.S. only recognizes your U.S. citizenship).
Some countries, like Germany, still actively try to discourage the practice, though even Germany is becoming less strident. If you are a German citizen and you naturalize in any other (non-EU or EEA country or Switzerland), you automatically lose your German citizenship by operation of law unless you asked for permission to retain it. But getting permission has become progressively easier, and Germany does not make a person who is born with German citizenship and another citizenship choose by a certain age.
It is something of an interesting topic, for sure, though it's very easy to fall down the dark well of conspiracy theorists (some Germans believe you are not a Proper German Citizen unless you have the goldenrod-colored A4 form declaring you to be so) and nation state abolitionists (not saying I disagree with the latter, but it is a very short trip from there to "I am a human and also a corporate person separate from my corporeal being").
The statement is quite literally "the very ground we're standing on doesn't even belong to us, but here we are saying that you are a citizen of . . . clearly not the land".
Their demographic experiment is also very interesting. About 10% of all Canadians don't actually live in Canada - that is an extremely large ratio. It is also a growing number, and as housing prices and lack of economic opportunity continue to drag, more Canadians leave. At the same time, the Canadian government is desperate to ignore these issues, and just bringing as many immigrants as possible so they can prop the housing market since it is the last bastion of their economy and accounts for a third of GDP when you factor in related services and industries. That was pre-COVID so now it's quite likely to be even larger.
It's a generational revolving door of immigrating, getting citizenship, and then watching your kids emigrate. I suspect that within our lifetimes we'll see >50% of Canadians actually live outside of Canada.
Being Canadian will be a sort of administrative identity more than anything resembling a citizenship.
This is pretty much how my US citizenship is now after living abroad for about 6 years and having a long term bearish outlook on NA, EU, China, Japan (demographics, sovereign/corp debt + real yields).
Since when?
I grew up in Canada and obtained citizenship there in 1990. (After the USA decided that they were sick and tired of losing dual citizenship cases in the Supreme Court and stopped pursuing them.) There was no such acknowledgement of the ceremony that I took part in.
Incidentally my children get to be Canadian. But my grandchildren do not unless they are born in Canada. That seems reasonable.
https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/co...
Perhaps it was added as part of the ceremony in another manner but not officially in the oath.
[1] https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/citizenship-oath-indigenous...
[2] http://nctr.ca/reports.php
US with 1.75 is not far ahead, and recent administrations games will soon create a similar crisis.
"I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen"
The deal for people who are already US citizens is easier.
What are the workarounds?
No. Notwithstanding the strong language, US law does not require you to relinquish your old citizenship when you naturalize. https://www.usa.gov/become-us-citizen
Multiple passports, in 2021 gives you options that are invaluable. You can establish homes in 3 countries. In case of emergency in one country you can go to another 2. You can enter countries that exclude citizens with one or more passports.
There is so much to be thankful for with multiple citizenships.
The one major downside is U.S. Taxes.
Be very grateful to your parents and self-initiative.
Sometimes you just get the right one ;-)
Of course there is less cultural diversity than the EU - but the uniformity of law and culture makes moving between states even easier than the EU.
For example a green card holder can reside one year in each of five different states and that will count as the 5 years residence necessary to naturalize as a US citizen. If an EU permanent resident moves between countries like that, they'll never stay long enough in any one country to gain citizenship.
Imaging if the Alabama state government could sell US citizenships and pocket all the proceeds themselves! Definitely creates weird incentives.
Suppose you wanted to settle in a different continent. Country outside of the US or the EU.
Suppose some issue happened in your country or region that you did not agree with?
Suppose you wanted to give up EU or US citizenship.
Multiple passports give you damn options.
A French passport is hardly the “right one”.
The whole world is not the euro or anglo countries. There is plenty out there to enjoy or explore or move to.
You should check out the Nomad Capitalist channel on YouTube for an even wider view on all of this.
Open your horizons.
So that's not an option for 1.32 Billion people.
I know someone who was born in the Soviet Union and, after living in Japan for many years, became a Japanese citizen. She had problems renouncing her previous citizenship because the country where she was born no longer existed; she said she had to bribe someone at the Russian Embassy to get the necessary documentation. She also mentioned being detained and questioned when trying to enter Canada on her Japanese passport for a short stay because the Canadian immigration officials thought she didn’t look Japanese. She had no similar difficulties when trying to enter Japan itself.
[1] http://www.moj.go.jp/ENGLISH/information/tcon-01.html
[2] http://www.moj.go.jp/ENGLISH/information/tnl-01.html
"No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident ..."
Edit: or i think its OCI Card, Overseas Citizen of India. PIO is discontinued.
https://www.internationalinvestment.net/news/4012853/acciden...
There was a better article on this, but I didn’t find it.
Essentially, being born in the U. S while living elsewhere is a financial burden. As in, you haven’t been here since birth, but you are expected to pay for citizenry.
Particularly if you're in your 20s and fully remote, I'd highly encourage you to look into Australia or New Zealand's working holiday visa.
For fans of E.Asia, the Taiwan gold card [1][2] may be of interest.
[1]: https://notebook.wesleyac.com/taiwan/
[2]: https://notebook.wesleyac.com/taiwan-gold-card/
For the most part, it’s a minor annoyance that any problems I have or questions I need answers to are a 24 hour turn around, but otherwise I get my work done and deliver it and they get it the next day. If you’re on top of things, it’s not too challenging.
The 6am meetings were a constant feature - complicated by the semi-annual daylight saving time dance.
Indian coworkers shifted their work day a bit later (helped a little with traffic!). Europe definitely preferred the mid-afternoon meetings, rather than flipping them by 12 hours. Adding anyone from Oceania would be difficult...
It's unclear if you're criticizing the US (borders being completely open for months), or if you're praising the way it handled the pandemic
In the UK (especially post-brexit), NZ and Australia it feels like being trapped. Travel is restricted both internally (sporadically) and externally and the regional governments have more or less the same policies, so I don't see anyway to vote with my feet here that doesn't come with a high cost.
One little request: please list Ireland as Ireland like it's done everywhere else. Couldn't find it until I tried another country and saw it in the list as "the Republic of Ireland"
I left the US about a month before the lockdowns started. I have been living in Croatia for the past year. I can technically live/work/retire in any EU/EFTA country (minus Lichtenstein--has an immigration quota), due to having Freedom of Movement rights. In a lot of ways the world is my oyster.
Being a dual citizen has some unique advantages: I can also work a US based job, remotely in the EU, completely legally. I have pretty severe health problems, so being able to work remotely in the EU for a US based company is a huge deal. I just have to get the US based employer to agree to use a payroll company as an intermediary to deal with payroll taxes. Obviously I forfeit EU workers' rights.
But, it is way, way, less stressful living here, just in general. Americans have no idea. The taxes are worth the peace of mind along with the stability it gives society.
I naturalized as Croatian only for the right to healthcare: I have 2 rare immune-mediated neurological diseases affecting my peripheral nervous system, which is in remission. I require many unusual treatments and medications, which are difficult to access in the US, for a variety of reasons. Some of these interventions are life-and-death.
I think it is for any income above 100k/year (the amount could have changed), if you are in that bracket is a nice problem to have
> Also many international banks cringe at opening accounts with “us persons”
I live in a country with many American expats, none of them have had any problem whatsoever to access to banking services, including opening accounts
If you’re a one-off for them they may just say “no”.
It depends on the bank. Any bank doing business internationally is usually fine because they probably already have a robust compliance mechanism in place, but a lot of local banks will just straight-up say no because they don't want to be subjected to FBAR / FATCA.
You must have a bank account in Croatia, for example, to get various things done with Croatian government bureaucracy. Generally speaking, some German and Austrian banks will do business with American citizens. It is important to be gracious and patient, as FATCA is a huge pain.
There is a Foreign Earned Income Exclusion on US income tax returns. For 2020 it is $107,600, and for 2021 it is $108,700. Obviously investments are another story. But, many Americans abroad do not have to pay US income taxes, but they do have to file them.
In the US, with good health insurance benefits through a large employer, my out-of-pocket costs were around $25,000-$30,000/year. Even if I paid US taxes on top of the European taxes, it is not the worst thing in the world: I never have to worry about being cared for here, and the doctors have a lot more time for me here, and can follow my case better.
I also require an orphan drug to stay alive, which costs hundreds of thousands of dollars per year in the US, typically covered by insurance, but not guaranteed. So, I could always end up with an obscene bill in the mail. (It has happened before and I have been lucky to get off the hook.)
I work outside of tech for a Fortune 500 and my premiums are $1200 per year with a max OOP of $2500.
Unless a plan is grandfathered in, the ACA limits OOP to ~$9k per year.
https://www.healthcare.gov/glossary/out-of-pocket-maximum-li...
Yearly premium liability: ($950/month)*(12 months/year)= $11,400/year
Out-of-Pocket liability: $9,000/year
So, the minimum healthcare liability that I theoretically have in the US (which is never the case for me), every year, is:
Yearly Premium Liability + Out-of-Pocket Liability = $20,400/year
However, I also have other uncovered medical expenses, encountered thanks to insurance issues. I literally generated well over 100 claims per year on medical insurance alone, so it was not like I never had uncovered expenses. Obviously you fight it, and you never give up, because that is what the providers expect you to do. However, there are a lot of situations that are just unwinnable.
In reality, my yearly healthcare liability in the US was closer to $30,000/year.
I had the opposite experience. I found US health insurance reasonable and it covered more than in my original country (which didn’t cover the latest cancer treatments and had long waiting lines). If I got seriously ill and had good insurance I’d return to the US for care than stay where I am today in a developed country.
A lot of banks just straight out refuse it. Especially the ones with the lowest fees.
You can also do that 100% legally as a non US citizen (I did), with the added advantage of not paying US taxes.
You have to pay taxes and social security in the country where you reside, not where you are a citizen and/or work (mostly).
Croatia at the moment is a black sheep in the European Union, though, as it has an easy to get digital nomad visa: https://www.total-croatia-news.com/news/digital-nomads-in-cr...
For the digital nomad visa in Estonia, for example, you need connections there to essentially get it.
Czech Republic has a self-employment visa that allows you to work without formal business connections within the country, which is pretty unique among the European Union.
Only US & Eriteria taxes its residents/citizens' income, no matter where it generated. So a US born baby (us citizen by birth), moved to Europe back with parents, or even an adult us citizen working outside US has to file the IRS Return. Every year.
Can you please go on with this point and provide some 1-1 examples you've personally seen? I keep dreaming and have, for the last 5 years, about leaving the US and living in Europe but I feel like I'm throwing away an enormous economic opportunity by moving now.
I have accumulated and will continue accumulating wealth that would be impossible to accumulate in any European country in my lifetime. I keep saying, one more year, just one more year and it seems to be a hamster wheel that never stops spinning.
I'm afraid I'll wake up one day, after saying one more year, that I'm 50 years old with 2 kids and a life in the US that I'll have a harder time leaving behind.
Check out Luxembourg, Switzerland, and Lichtenstein. These places pay incredibly well and once you factor in the cost of healthcare and general quality of life, the US looks like a bad joke. These three countries’ job market is accessible with a Schengen visa.
Is that true? I'd have assumed that EU citizens have access, but non-EU would need to apply specifically for FL/CH work permits.
(and I'm not sure, is there actually a EU-wide work permit for non-EU? I had the impression that each country is still handling non-EU permit separately)
(tourist visa are different of course)
Same goes for CH nationals who want to work in the EU.
My comment was really about non EU+ nationals. If you get a working permit as a 3rd party national with no treaty with EU, in eg Germany, can you just move to Spain and work?
This means that there is a strong social safety net, and we take care of the vulnerable. I do not have to worry about the cost of my medical care or other social needs. I pay my taxes, do my part as a citizen, and I know I will be taken care of.
Essentially, because of this I do not have to live in fear.
I basically chose my field of work due to the need for health insurance, as an American. When I was at university, some semesters I was basically going to university just to keep and maintain health insurance, when I was sick beyond belief. It was unbelievably stressful. I never would have needed to do this if I was a Croatian citizen at that time.
I also do not have to accumulate huge amounts of wealth to ensure I am cared for, like I would in America. I do not have to be on a hamster wheel that never stops spinning, due to the principle of solidarity.
I simply get to be free. I do not have to work a job just for benefits or for pay. I do not have to work long grueling hours.
Anyways, the best country to get EU citizenship in, usually for people on here is Republic of Ireland, which permits dual citizenship. You can get citizenship there in 5 years. Besides getting Freedom of Movement rights to live/work/retire in the EU/EFTA (minus Lichtenstein), you also get rights to live/work/retire in the UK, due to treaties and historical ties.
Also, most people here are skilled workers in tech. In Ireland, for many people here on this site, you can get a job visa to Ireland relatively easily, without a skilled worker test (which means that the Irish employer has to demonstrate that they are not taking a job from an EU citizen by hiring you--the documentation required can be harsh for the employer), as there is an exemption: https://enterprise.gov.ie/en/What-We-Do/Workplace-and-Skills...
I know the safety nets you're referring to, they're there for health care, unemployment and worker rights. Things that don't really exist for most people in the US if they're unemployed or in a regular job.
I'm lucky to be in a well paid, high lucrative job even if I have to pay the highest taxes in the US (Which let's be real, are little compared to the EU).
I have a Romanian passport so it's easy to jump over the pond but I'd love my US residency and all the years I put in to be able to start switching jobs more easily. I don't want a ridiculous amount of wealth but I'd love to have a head start and secure financial freedom for my family.
One of my friends just left Munich for Colorado, he said houses are still too expensive in major German cities and salaries too low. He was working remote for a SV company and making big bucks for EU standards. I keep hearing how I'll just have to swallow a tiny salary compared to SV wages if I move to any EU country, Switzerland included.
I guess I have to get to the point where I'm ready to leave the consumerism behind, be happy with extra vacation / free time and "unprogram" every bad habit I learned while living in the US.
Thanks for pointing this out as it is very important information to have vs. everything we hear about Germany being "the best place in the world" and "you don't need to buy property as everyone here rents".
But, as said by others, comparing raw numbers is pointless. Even if we spent the 2/3k that are left each month, we'd still have health insurance and pension paid for by our taxes. We aren't forced to build so much wealth to weather bad times because proper insurance is built in the system.
What domain are you in if you don't mind me asking?
So there is much more focus on soft skills, such as leaving a good impression, properly selling your work so that the client is happy, securing future collaborations with them, and so on. And, on the flip side, hard technical skills are not that important: as long as you can produce something that works in a reasonable time and sell it well you will be fine.
If you can't buy now, with "significant disposable income", will you be able to buy later? That is, if you care for home ownership at all.
FAANG/SV engineers could buy a home pretty much in any major city after some years in the industry. I have heard that is not the case in Munich, Frankfurt, Zurich, etc...
Did you check e.g. levels.fyi?
Unfortunately not true. Just because some FAANG in the area will be able to pay you €150k+ TC, doesn't mean all local companies will automatically try to match that. You might be surprised how wide the TC gap is between FAANG & Co. and local players who might laugh in your face if you ask for more than €80k. Simply put, most EU companies can't match such levels of pay but will have no shortage of talent.
It also gets hairy once you compare pre-tax (US Salaries) with post-tax (EU salaries) and different costs of living.
I use a combination of levels.fyi, Payscale/Glassdoor plus Numbeo / Nomadlist to keep running the numbers around how much I could save by moving elsewhere.
That is 100% totally understandable, and is basically the American dream, as you know.
No matter what, as soon as you can: After you hold your green card long enough, make sure to naturalize as a United States citizen. A lot of green card holders never bother to become US citizens. I always encourage people I know to do so. But, generally speaking, once you are a citizen, you are a citizen: it can never be taken away from you. We need people like you and your family as US citizens.
I would get a lawyer, but many lawyers can be sketchy. My best advice would be to go to the Embassies of Switzerland/France/Germany/Canada/UK/etc. to the US websites' and go to their "legal advice" page. There usually is a PDF list of American lawyers. On there, it will specify their area of practice. Obviously, you want an immigration lawyer.
Lawyers can be sketchy, so you need to vet them out for any possible red flags, such as "positive counter-reviews", "any bad reviews", or "painting an overly perfect picture of oneself". If they are involved in commerce associations or any sort of business association (especially if it involves complicated laws or situations), this can be a good sign, as they have to get along with others and just get stuff done in general. From there you make a list of prospective lawyers, email them, and go from there. I would also ask for references, both on a professional level and from actual clients, too.
I value the point of citizenship and passports but getting the US one seems to be shooting yourself in the foot if you don't ever see yourself moving back to the US. I know for sure if I leave, I'm not planning to retire anywhere in the US so it would be a tough sell to go for citizenship.
Sorry, but this is not true at all.
I was being dead serious about suggesting that you might as well naturalize as a United States citizen.
You are already liable for US taxes for at least the next 10 years abroad, from the date you have been judicially determined to have abandoned your green card. You do not acquire this status by not fulfilling the requirements of your green card, either: you need to fill out an I-407 form or a Letter of Intent to Abandon Residence Status. Then, at some point, you receive a judicial determination and have to pay taxes for the next 10 years to the US, from that date, while abroad.
See: https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/visa-green-card-hold...
The worst part is that due to FATCA, they can literally seize your bank accounts that you hold abroad.
Anyways, this is a good overview for "playing your cards", with respect to pensions and taxes, while abroad, as a green card holder or an American: https://www.goldinglawyers.com/green-card-holder-foreign-inc...
So I can't find this mentioned anywhere in your link or online. That's the first I hear of it, do you have a source?
There is an expatriation tax if you've been a GC holder for 8 out of 15 years, which I haven't been so I'm fine to leave without any hassles of worrying about taxes.
I don't see the point in US citizenship, I have 2 other strong citizenships that cover all of my needs, unless I decide to stay in the US.
It looks like I don't want to stay in the US long enough to make citizenship worth it, right now.
See: https://americansoverseas.org/en/knowledge-centre/when-are-y...
These are the most important headers to look at:
* US Income Tax: How to Relinquish the Green Card
* Form I-407 or Letter of Intent to Abandon Resident Status
Both of my parents were American accountants, and my father was a CPA. So, I guess I have a different outlook on taxes. I do not see them as a big deal except for the fact that I take paying my taxes very seriously, and obviously I do my best when giving information. I always pay them on time. But, I just look at it like "paying my dues to society", whether or not I actually agree with it--which in this case really does not matter--as it is due, legally.
I am just stating this from purely a personal perspective, so please do not be offended. I know we all have different feelings about being taxed, double-taxed, etc.
By the way: I am not afraid of renouncing my US citizenship, even though I am culturally American and it would be harder to access my family.
The only reason why I do not: I have 2 rare immune-mediated neurological diseases affecting my peripheral nervous system. One of them I nearly died from, and is considered to be very rare, with case reports and small cohorts, at best, in the literature. The disease I have was discovered via National Institutes of Health (NIH) grant funds, given to the Mayo Clinic, in the early 2000s. Ultimately, as problematic as the US is, they saved my life, along with the few thousand people diagnosed with this illness worldwide.
The only thing that pops up time and time again is the expatriation tax which only applies if you had your GC for 8 years.
I'm really sorry about your neurological diseases, it's such a shame US healthcare is in shambles for the general populace.
Naturalized citizens can lose citizenship if it is determined they lied on their application. This is unlike those who inherited citizenship via birth.
I’m eligible to work anywhere in the EU but the pay in continental Europe seems much worse than what I could earn working remotely for a US company.
You've got recognisable names like Microsoft, Amazon, Stripe etc, but also a large amount of tech jobs in staid banks and insurance companies, as well as a fairly healthy amount of startups and other small and medium sized enterprises.
Pay is good. Assuming your housing situation is ok, you can have a decent career and a stereotypical comfortable middle class existence - mortgage, car, a foreign holiday every year (with 20-something days of annual leave per year) and the possibility of putting your kids through college without either loans or maintenance grants.
Beyond pay, and not getting too far into social safety nets and GINI coefficients etc, it appears to be common to get fired with no notice in the USA. That level of insecurity is rare in Ireland, and pretty much unheard of in any office job.
Are you sure you're in the same Croatia as the rest of us?
Yes, salaries are low all across the EU (Switzerland is not in the EU) and taxes are high, so ideally I recommend working remotely and bouncing between Portugal and Spain or finding a post retirement hobby (easier said than done).
(By the way I did consider Croatia too as it is similarly inexpensive, but Romanian is an easier language and I already knew people here from previous travels).
Portugal seems a great in between if you can swing a remote job, a lot of tech workers prefer it for the low cost of living and climate, like you said.
It seems working remotely is the best option but I'm not sure how feasible that is long term and with timezone differences.
Overall, for most of the population, yes. However, if you're a tech worker, no, as that puts you in the top %10 of earners.
In many ways, Romania is like the US, high inequality, low taxes, and poor quality social services, unless you have a corporate job, then you can live like a King as the huge pay(relative speaking) and job perks give you an edge over everyone else.
This made me chuckle, I often compare California to Romania (since I know both places well) and can contrast the corruption, money waste, terrible infrastructure and inequality in a way that friends / family that moved from Romania can't agree with.
They always paint Romania as a third world *hole that's incomparable to the US/Canada or other "civilized" countries.
I follow the news, political developments and have friends there so I'm aware how far it's gotten in the last 2 decades, I'm pretty proud of the direction they're heading in.
The only caveat I have for you with living in RO vs the US is the healthcare system. Even if you opt for private care, the really good doctors, the emergency procedures that need to be done in public hospitals are a disgrace. At least in the US if you "live like a king", you can pay for a king's level of healthcare.
In RO, you literally have to fly to Germany/Switzerland or elsewhere to get quality healthcare and if you have a really bad accident, you may not make it to the hospital to get the care you need.
That's the one thing keeping me from moving to RO today, even with its extremely low cost of living. I can't risk my family's health on the disastrous healthcare system there.
> That's the one thing keeping me from moving to RO today, even with its extremely low cost of living. I can't risk my family's health on the disastrous healthcare system there.
I have the same issue here in Croatia, and I spend a lot of time on the islands. There is no such thing as medivac (air rescue) here.
The solution to this is to get an International SOS plan, which covers pre-existing conditions. I know all about this because my sister was an expat living in one of the most corrupt countries in the world, Equatorial Guinea (Africa). If one became gravely ill there, you would be medevac-ed to Munich, Germany. Hers was an employer sponsored plan though.
You only have to declare one of your nationalities (as in citizenships) when filling out the forms, and I confirmed that this was proper procedure (you can also reside in the country of your nationality under the terms and conditions of the expat plan). I declared myself as a United States citizen. You also state where you plan on living the majority of the year (Croatia). The expat plan is something like $750/year, which may seem expensive. However, if the incident is severe they will also repatriate you back to your home country of citizenship. In my case, this would be the United States. I want to be repatriated where my family is, if I get gravely ill.
If you get very sick in Croatia and need to be medevac-ed out, they fly you to Vienna, Austria.
Here are where the "expatriate plans" are: https://buymembership.internationalsos.com/expatriate/
For healthcare I'd just plan to go to Poland for serious care. As for consumerism, you can't beat the US for Amazon Prime, craigslist, or ebay (my personal favorite).
The only thing that's cheaper here in Cluj is housing. Food is slightly cheaper depending on category, but many things are more expensive. Including gym memberships.
Hard to plan to go to Poland for serious care if you have a life threatening emergency. If Romania figures out its healthcare problem, it could be a serious contender for me to live in, in the future.
Bear in mind that wealth is relative. The differences in cost of living are dramatic between countries so a much smaller wealth in one country can be much larger in another.
Insurance for the future. Maybe I get bored of software, maybe I want to take a few years off and not have to work. Maybe I won't be able to "unprogram" the consumerist habits I picked up in the US and will fall back into buying things I don't really need (like Hi-Fi, photography equipment, gaming rigs, TVs, etc...) and will need funds to continue doing that.
I don't know, I guess I spent too much time in the US and deeply concluded that it's better to have wealth than to not have it. I have a lot of reflection to do.
Even adjusting for cost of living, if I bring $1M over to the EU, I couldn't stop working for the next 50 years, I would need a few for $xMs for that.
If I move to the EU now and take a hit in income, that will become impossible.
If that is true, it's more than I thought it would be and I think if you found a good job you enjoyed, making 80k EUR/yr on top of having $1M saved could give you a secure financial future.
[1] https://www.levels.fyi/Salaries/Software-Engineer/Germany/
$30-40k/yr, pre-tax, would still be ok for one person in Portugal / Spain or other lower cost of living places, right NOW. Once you add in a spouse, children, things start to get hairy.
Once you consider that these places are currently undervalued and their cost of living could increase dramatically in the future, that $30-40k/yr no longer seems as safe.
I would personally aim for $2M+ to feel safe that I won't have to be forced to work a job I hate for the next 30 years.
"Some people are so poor that all they have is money."
(I'm not advocating curtailed wants or frugality. My life is pretty comfy and I like it that way.)
Real estate is much more expensive in major European cities compared to US major cities (income-adjusted), and is taxed a lot on top of income taxes. And rural real estate is much cheaper in the US both absolutely and income-adjusted.
Vehicles and fuel are more expensive here too + again major taxes. Traveling by public transport is reality only in major German and French metropolitan areas, you need a car everywhere else as soon as you need to cross the city border at least semi-regularly.
And yet not even coronavirus tests are free here, as opposed to many places in the US.
I don’t know what it is about Europeans on American websites telling us how great it is to have 1/3 less PPP and higher taxes, but I sure as hell don’t want my taxes any higher.
A grand total of none of my international friends have anywhere near the wealth, nor earning potential I do, and they never will. It’s an exceedingly large, compounding edge.
American policy makers can’t even use our existing tax revenues in fiscally responsible ways as it is. Why would I vote for more taxation?
Everyone knows our healthcare system is asinine. It doesn’t require more money to fix.
That's because most of us are not obsessed with wealth. We tend to be satisfied with some level of comfort and security and focus on other things in life. I guess that's a cultural thing.
> Everyone knows our healthcare system is asinine. It doesn’t require more money to fix.
It's not only about health care, but other aspects such as how the society is structured, poverty, incarceration rates, access to education, homelessness, etc. Again, probably a cultural thing but Europeans seem to care more about these matters than Americans and so we structure and drive our politics and legislature towards addressing these issues.
You might have more earning potential in the US, but I’d much rather make a bit less money and live in a country with a functioning healthcare system, a welfare system, a (mostly) functioning legislative branch, much less police violence and racial tension and less political polarisation. I just don’t feel anxious living here. No matter what happens I’ll be ok. In Australia you don’t need to be super rich in order to feel safe.
My guess is it will be years before we correctly understand exactly what worked or didn't and why.
Apparently the #1 predictive factor for a country to have good health outcomes is trust between the citizens and their government. Small countries have done better than big countries, but that may be a side effect of public trust generally being better in smaller countries.
Source: this podcast (based on a study) https://overcast.fm/+YQ31Gx6tw
Funny, talking to my friends in Asia (to which I consider Australia/NZ to be a part of) it feels the exact same way!
I can tell them how I go anywhere without wearing a mask, some people make snide remarks but that's it - while they have to declare their address in restaurants, and face all kind of restrictions like not being able to return to their country without a quarantine.
> I’d much rather make a bit less money and live in a country with a functioning healthcare system
With money, in the US you'll get the best healthcare money can buy (or you can travel to Asia to get it cheaper)
For the rest (welfare etc), I really prefer the US way - it feels better to me to have people strongly incentivized to behave, yet free. I guess we are different.
https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/535344-biden-req...
I’m not going to lie, it’s been tough sometimes. Masks are no big deal. It’s the occasional city wide lockdowns have been the worst. But the USA has just shy of 500 000 deaths. (There are 440k men/430k women in SF, if that gives you a sense of the scale of the tragedy). We only had 909 deaths in Australia.
Maybe to you those deaths were worth it so you didn’t have to wear masks? That’s horrific, and I don’t know how to respond to that. I suppose we are different.
Yes, we are different, because they are fully acceptable to me. Even 2x, 3x or 10x more. Even if I was at risk myself. Freedom is not negotiable.
Please do not take offense to this. This will be infuriating, but I want you to understand the American mindset that causes this behavior.
Please know that I am found of Australians: In primary school, 2 of my neighbors were Australian, and I played with them every day. They were wonderful, very kind, loyal friends, and their family was amazing. In high school, one of my best friends at the high school was Australian, along with her sister. They were always kind to me and talked to me about thoughtful things. I have serious health problems, and one time I had a medical emergency (severe low blood glucose reaction) at school after hours, and her older sister took care of me for a what really was a long time, before adults could take over. I will be forever thankful to her and her family.
Everybody knows that Australia can be very cliquish, which really sets Americans off. While Australia does quite a phenomenal job of taking care of and looking after its citizens, if you are not a citizen then there is outright hypocrisy on that standard. This is awful to say, but it is true.
Just an example: you must be very healthy to become either a permanent resident or an Australia citizen (naturalizing via work--not marriage or descent), as there are medical inadmissability clauses in the immigration laws. Basically, if you cost more than $8,000 AUD/year total for both health care and other related social services, then you are medically inadmissable to Australia. If one of your immediate non-citizen family members in Australia exceeds this cutoff, then all of you cannot live permanently in Australia. It is brutal.
You also pay a lot for housing in Australia, and things are just not as well built or insulated there. It is an engineering problem, and Americans find it appalling. I posted this link in an r/IWantOut post, and prior to doing so, I said, "Australia truly is a great country, and its people take care of its own citizens, but there is going to be a serious housing crisis that is going to occur in the future. You need to be aware of this issue." Anyways, I got a TON of flak for it, by Australians, and rightfully so, as Australia is a great country:
Expert warns Australia could turn into slums in 20 years | 60 Minutes Australia: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRSdiq3sOTc
Americans tend to find the "happy-go-lucky attitude" of some Australians to be appalling. In that sense, many Americans find Australians to be jarring and they get under Americans' skin.
As for American hypocrisy: Americans think that they are the center of the world. Many Americans think that we are the best country in the world, which is laughable at best. Those people are in for a rude awakening in the future. But, my point is, that in the past 4 years of Trump, American Empire has declined in reality about 40 years, due to Trump's "work".
Also, Americans are big on their BS "freedoms", in totally hypocritical ways. One could write books about it. It would actually be great satire.
We always had the strategic capacity, at least in theory, with our institutions and infrastructure (if Trump was not our president) to at least attempt the elimination strategy, although places like Australia and New Zealand have natural geographical advantages.
The problem is that very few Americans are willing to take pain in solidarity with others, for a short period of time, to potentially eliminate such a terrible infectious illness that will cause everyone even more pain long term.
In America, there is always a baseline level of fear and anxiety too, present all the time even pre-pandemic, which a president like Trump knows how to appropriate in "hits" of pain onto the right groups of people. Americans expect a lot of pain, just in general.
So, when Americans see failure (which is a...
And that anxiety you mentioned that’s strangely ever present in the US disappeared when I came home. I was on a bus and had the revelation that nobody was going to try to talk to me. It was bliss.
The lockdowns we had in Melbourne to keep covid down were utterly harrowing and I think a lot of us are still processing that experience. We gave up some freedoms temporarily to save lives. It was a temporary sacrifice of personal freedoms, because not making that sacrifice would have been worse. Letting covid out would have risked the lives of my parents, and I would have risked long covid - and who knows how many complications down the road. And it’s proof we as a nation can take collective action when we need to. I worry that the US might not have been able to do what we did to contain the virus, even if the fatality rate was 20x higher than it is. And that’s a tragedy from the country that invented the internet and landed people on the moon.
I definitely agree with all of this.
Yeah, sorry my fellow peers in America are being pricks, and are being so mean that they are not just inflicting pain—-but are retraumatizing Australians (usually strangers) on the internet.
In the US, sadly, if somebody dies of coronavirus, then they are really nothing more than a statistic. It is sad but true. A lot of this existed before big tech, but big tech brought it to a totally different level.
I agree that America probably would not come together in solidarity to stop a virus 20 times more fatal. I have been so worried about where America has been going for the past 6 years especially.
Even if we do somehow get our act together, we will need profound structural change. We will need to flood our politics with ambitious positive plans in general in the future to stop this kind of stuff.
Also, the first 5 years of life determines many outcomes in life. It can set up a child to have an authoritarian personality for life, for example. To stop this, our government needs to put extreme emphasis on young children’s development so this kind of stuff can never happen again. I mean like hardcore investments, projects, and human rights towards the best development of young children.
The depths of how far low it can go are profoundly deep.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_pe...
I don't mean to be rude but please look at that above link and understand how poor you as a citizen of USA are. It's frustrating to come from a country thats ~3X as wealthy as the USA in terms of median wealth (i'm Australian) and see the idea that higher taxes are an issue. The higher taxes are on the very wealthy. Median wealth captures this. The USA fucked up somewhere along the way and taxed the poor (those <1million a year) and this is why you are posting what you are posting. More taxes are ok if they are on the rich.
> what it is about Europeans on American websites telling us...
There's this strong sentiment among Americans that I see on social media so often these days that the Internet is somehow an American thing and we need to watch our mouths or get off their lawn.
Sorry dude, but my country’s vast stores of natural resources don’t exactly help me afford my mortgage payment next month.
That list certainly doesn’t reflect the average person’s disposable wealth. I’ve lived in two of the countries that rank “higher” than the US and in no way is the average person more wealthy. Not even close. In fact I’d say the average person in one of those countries has about half the disposable wealth of the average American.
What I meant was my country’s vast wealth in the form of natural resources hardly helps me pay for my day to day expenses. What matters is my income and my personal, disposable wealth. Which your ranking is not measuring.
That’s why you have bizarre numbers like the average Australian having 3x the wealth of Americans.
You basically referenced a link you didn’t read.
And like I said, when you look at the ranking it doesn’t make sense unless they did include things beyond personal wealth. You really think the average Spaniard is wealthier than the average Norweagean?
Sorry for the "downvotes are the disagree button" that you are experiencing for raising good and interesting discussion points, and frankly calling out misleading numbers that were posted. I didn't know that the average German was worse off and poorer than the average person from Greece (I guess finally the wealth transfer from Germany to Greece is being reflected in the numbers! - kidding, kind of).
First it was Australia was 3x wealthier than the US. Now it’s that the US is poorer on a median level, yet I see no data.
What am I reading? No wonder the OP is frustrated. Rightfully so.
Just because the median citizen is “only” in the top 25 countries in the world, doesn’t mean that what the OP said is incorrect.
It’s also difficult to do proper comparisons. Notice anything out of the ordinary in that list? Check out the population of the countries. Of course Australians are wealthy, they live on a continent nearly the size of the US with the population of L.A. county. That’s a lot of resources to go around for a small number of people.
I echo the OP in the constant anti-American sentiment I find on the internet being frustrating. “Your healthcare sucks, your taxes suck, look at how poor you are because of this chart”.
A lot of that doesn’t even reflect reality for many people. Let’s talk about healthcare. My experience in healthcare is I schedule an appointment at the university medical center, get extremely high quality care, and that’s that. I pay $0 for co-pays, or for medicine. Other people with health insurance can do that too. Obviously we have a healthcare problem in the U.S., which is why even to my own personal detriment I support UHC, but the experience people have in the U.S. varies widely. The U.S. government is responsible for like 70% of U.S. healthcare expenditures.
Ask yourself, why does the U.S. make citizens file taxes if they live abroad? I wonder if it has anything to do with people becoming massively wealthy and then conveniently living in another nearby country so they don’t have to pay taxes? Or maybe someone works at a company and that company can just relocate them somewhere cheap so they can avoid taxes? I’m not sure, but I hear a lot of “people in America need to pay taxes” but then they also get mad when the government makes people living in other countries pay income taxes. Why should it matter if you live in Japan as an American? You’re still a citizen. If you don’t want to pay taxes then give up your citizenship. How are we supposed to pay for healthcare for example if we allow lots of people to exempt themselves? And the U.S. exempts the first $108,000 of that income. What’s the big deal? That you have to report it? How can we fight corruption if we don’t even make people report their income?
USA's tax burden is 27.1% of GDP
Not an enormous difference.
US median wage USD49,764, Fed + CA tax is $9,611.02 - 19%
Median wage in Australia is far higher than in America seems more important than the tax rate at the 50th percentile
Speak for yourself! I prefer not to be taxed, so I'd rather have the poor taxed than the rich.
What American websites?
Can you expand on this point? Fellow US-EU dual citizen and cultural American here, looking to do the same thing, for similar health reasons.
Hiding the fact you're an A citizen is usually only helpful in hostage/terrorist situations which you'd probably want to avoid in any case.
I was thinking specifically of the certain countries where you needed to hide the fact that you have been to Israel.
Or, for example, to Iran - where Americans need special government babysitters to visit the country but the Swiss don't. Wouldn't the Iranians want to monitor a Swiss-passport-carrying American as much as any other American?
In the Iran case, the safe way seems to disclose the double citizenship and accept the babysitters. As a Swiss, I would clarify with the Swiss embassy whether they can intervene in case the double citizenship causes further problems. It seems likely, as the person would still be a Swiss citizen. It all depends how much hassle it is to sour the diplomatic relationship with Switzerland.
But remember the travel ban for Muslim country citizen in the US? There being citizen of B will in all cases prevent you from entering (except, of course you criminally lying plus intelligence agency screwup)
I wonder what the conditions are for PR citizenship!
The idea is that, if you're an American, you could get PR citizenship status with one year and then Spain would give you citizenship with only two years. You might consider the PR citizenship to not actually be a "citizenship" but merely a residency status (like how you might live in California or Washington).
Though technically, US citizens are also citizens of the state in which they reside. So, it's not really that different than what states do when considering things like in-state tuition at schools. So, yes PR has citizenship just as California and every other state has citizenship. I guess the difference is that PR considers that you don't lose the status of PR citizen when you cease to be a resident (at least if you were born there or a parent was).
Spain is also free to make the laws it wants to access their nationality. They could decide that those born in Florida should have easier access given Florida's historical connection to Spain. France was at least considering allowing anyone born in a place that used to be French territory to get citizenship. I believe Bill Clinton joked that he could move to France and run for President there since Arkansas was part of the Louisiana Purchase from France.
Anyway, it seems that PR citizenship needs US citizenship, but US citizens can gain PR citizenship with one year of residency.
But it can lead to various edge cases, some of which are being spotlighted at the moment as people move around to get out of cities.
Basically you have this somewhat odd situation where you have free movement within the country and the federal government doesn't actually care where you spend your time. But you essentially need to be a state resident for purposes of things like a driver's license and paying state taxes and some states really want your money if you spend more than a bare minimum of days in the state. So there sort of a disconnect between federal rules and state rules.
To be clear, the PR document says it's possible (for a mainland American), but Spain does not recognize it unless you're Puerto Rican.
Source: I tried it and went through the process. I'm from mainland US, lived in PR and now live in Spain.
So if you parents aren't from PR, or if you do not speak spanish or what?
> Source: I tried it and went through the process. I'm from mainland US, lived in PR and now live in Spain.
Tell me more about it! I'm thinking about moving to PR if there are more Covid restriction due to the new administration (curfew like in Europe)
I'm also considering Spain.
If you are born in Puerto Rico or your parents are Puerto Rican, you can get the PR citizenship document, which has little value, outside of using it to show Spain you're Latin American (after you've reached the 2-yr mark legally living in Spain). So, you'd need to be Puerto Rican in one of the ways described, plus find a way to legally live in Spain for 2 years, then present the document when you apply for citizenship.
>I'm thinking about moving to PR if there are more Covid restriction due to the new administration (curfew like in Europe)
PR's Covid restrictions at the height were just as bad, if not worse, than other places. But that depends on case numbers. Currently the situation is as follows (site):
https://www.discoverpuertorico.com/info/travel-guidelines
>I'm also considering Spain
If you can show enough funds to sustain yourself while in Spain, you can apply for a non-lucrative visa which means you won't be able to take a Spaniard's job but you can still work online for a company abroad. It's essentially a non-work visa. Funds you'll need to show, per year, are at around $27,000 (even if cost of living is way less). Initial visa is one year, renewal is two years, and the second renewal is also two years, which gets you to the five year mark where you can apply for permanent residency. After your first 183 days in Spain, in a calendar year, you are considered a Spanish tax resident, and Spain has rather high taxes. Under the US-Spain double taxation agreement, you'd pay taxes to Spain and then apply for a credit on your US taxes.
Spain is really locked down, internally, so if I were you, I'd wait til late 2021 to consider coming here. It's insane the amount of things I cannot currently do here, and have not been able to do for many months.
Although if you want to be in Europe and wait it out, try Albania. Americans can stay there as tourists, visa-free, for one year (due to the US having helped Kosovo in the 90s, where 90% are ethnic Albanians). It's cheap, beautiful, and has nice people. Check out Dabble and Travel's late 2020 YT videos on Albania. Georgia is another country where you can stay for one year, as an American.
I incidentally moved to Europe for work several years ago without any particular plans to pursue dual citizenship, but I stuck around long enough I'm almost eligible so now I'm going for it because it'd open a lot of doors.
In my case it wasn't a downside at all, as I love living here (moving from a high-crime city to virtually-no-crime was great, and I love the atmosphere/environment here) and although there are always challenges with migration, for me none of them were too bad. But I had good personal circumstances for migration (few domestic attachments). For others, it could be more of a hurdle.
I heard of someone from Haiti getting Canadian citizenship while going to grad school in Quebec but that seems more an exception than the rule.
Well. I have a bad news as OP's current country seems be the US.
The tax rate in Australia for first $18,000 is 0%, compared with 10-12% federal + X% state in the US so if you're a low income earner living abroad can save big on taxes.
If you don't care about the cutting edge and want to feel safe at the cost of losing some freedom of choice: live abroad. I personally recommend Australia.
This is my experience. Neither is 'good' or 'bad'. It comes down to what you seek...
Historically we've seen this attempted through revolutions, but now with the advent of relatively easy/inexpensive international migration (by historical standards - not to mention the impossibility of revolutionary war today, but that's a different discussion), migration is a more peaceful alternative.
In the US, the fifty states are also different enough from each other that it may be easier to consider relocating within the US to find something more to your liking or more suitable to your needs. You won't need to apply for a visa or citizenship, etc. You can just find the weather, city size, etc that you like and go with a lot less paper work and jumping through hoops.
My wife is US American, I am German, my dad is Croatian and we've been living in Switzerland for almost 15 years.
When the kids were born, they both had US and German citizenship jus sanguinis. German passports arrived almost instantaneously. The US passports required us to visit the US embassy multiple times and fill out plenty of paper work.
Them gaining Croatian citizenship was more involved. First I needed to apply for it for myself through my dad. I also bought a second home in Croatia were we've spent most of our holidays. I also maintain a Croatian bank account that I use to cover local bills. It took several years and a good lawyer to get passed the beaucracy. Ultimately I received the Croatian passport and so did our children about half a year later.
After staying for over 10 years in Switzerland, my wife, my kids and I applied for Swiss citizenship. It cost us a couple of thousand US dollars, a clean record (no outstanding bills, no other credit issues, proof that you can take financial care of the family), proof of "proper integration" (like do I frequently visit the local pub... really!), a German language proficiency test for my wife, and a test for both of us showing that we understand the cultural, religious and political aspects of Swiss society. The process took exactly one year when we received our passports.
Was it all worth it? I think so. It is a liberating feeling to know that you can move between countries. We also wanted our kids to be able to choose for themselves where to live once they are grown up.
Do you happen to have a reference to back this up?
For example, had Croatia not entered the EU a couple of years ago, it would not have been possible most likely to aquire citizenship for our children without giving up German citizenship. That is because Germany permits multiple citizenship only if you obtained another citizenship by birth and/or the other citizenship is either one of an EU member country or Swiss citizenship. Some with Croatia, which generally allows citizens by descent to have multiple citizenship, but foreigners wanting to naturalize there must renounce their old citizenship (with exceptions, of course). Switzerland on the other hand has no such rules regarding multiple citizenship.
It's difficult to not inform the countries of your multiple citizenship unless you don't apply for passports. With each passport renewal you must also state your other citizenships if applicable.
Anecdote: Shortly after the first child was born, we wanted to visit our relatives in the US. Our child only had a German passport, which we thought would be OK to travel with (because, why not?). Well, as it turned out, once we arrived at US immigration, we were in big trouble. Because our child was automatically a US citizen by descent, she was also required to have a US passport to travel from abroad to the US. This is because formally the US does not acknowledge any of your other citizenships as long as you are US citizen.
Source: we went through it.
We also had a similar-ish experience passport wise while the kids had non-German passports only while we only had a German one. We held up the line of cars waiting to get on the ferry to England (going from the Netherlands) for quite some time while they asked and checked why some Germans were driving Canadian kids to England: o see the Scottish Highlands, duh :)
I think you can apply for an exemption especially if were already subject to the military draft of your country of origin. You might also be exempt if you just gain citizenship after a certain age.
But it doesn’t make up for the dozens of hours of paperwork and careful tip-toeing on investments and other garbage.
Just an FYI: one hiccup I heard of giving up your US citizenship is that banks didn’t recognize you could be born in USA but not a US citizen.
I had this issue just last month with a UK financial institution (Raisin). I tried to explain it but they obviously were not interested. I actually still have my citizenship (I'd love to renounce but that's currently impossible) but I felt it was worth pointing out their policy was unnecessarily discriminative.
Of course, the US claims to extra-territorial jurisdiction, and bullying of global financial institutions to enforce their crazy inter-planetary tax system, are totally preposterous.
Elon - renounce before blast-off!
You then answer no and that's all, they do not check further.
There may be a check against the form element "place of birth" but I doubt so.
such a setup allows one to build wealth and live an extraordinary life. i'd highly recommend it if you can swing it.
US companies don't pay absurd amounts of money, companies in other countries are the once that don't pay enough. Look at how much wealth tech industry has generated (and still is) for the US companies and the US economy, I think they should pay even more.
If they are asked if they have other citizenship, they can always say Germany - end of the inquiry.
No, you just don't have to say it, you have a swiss passport and that's it.
https://www.irs.gov/businesses/corporations/foreign-account-...
While Swiss banks are a bit crazy about anything related to the US (three years ago or so they just stopped accepting US checks from one month to the next, even though they had previously charged a crazy amount of money for it to be cashed in), I heard that banks in neighboring countries such as Germany are less concerned as long as your bank advisor follows some general guidelines.
https://sigtax.com/en/switzerland-united-states-tax-treaty
I will vote, no questions asked, for any party proposing a Law of Return for passports, no matter where the person intends to live.
As for the Swiss immigration officials, they are very competent, but I've gotten the impression they always want me to leave back where I came from. I love Switzerland anyway.
It's the same if you move from Zurich to graubuenden :)
Yeah, it is always advisable to get a Croatian lawyer when applying for Croatian citizenship, for example, even if you know exactly what you are doing.
Croatian law allows for loose arbitrary interpretations of the law by government servants in the bureaucracy. Even if you covered all of your bases and you did everything right, a lawyer stops such issues. Plus, Croatian law regulates exactly how much Croatian lawyers can charge, so it is not bad.
While my citizenship application went smoothly, even without the Croatian lawyer's assistance: If I were applying for US citizenship, for example, I would certainly use a lawyer, although for a different set of reasons. This is something to keep in mind for anyone considering emigrating anywhere, as the stakes can be high.
Other than gathering all the paperwork, any idea what it’s like if both parents are Croatian? I understand citizenship is automatic not something that needs to be applied for?
Many people in the diaspora abroad are eligible under Article 11, which can be relatively straightforward but with some "gotcha" tricks, that the bureaucracy will deny your citizenship over. It is vaguely mentioned in Article 11 (in Croatian), that people who emigrated abroad--or people who are direct descendants of these individuals may become citizens, with X Y Z etc. conditions listed as requirements. One "gotcha" for example, is that you have to provide documented official evidence (from at least one government source--certified, Apostilled, and translated into Croatian) that your emigrant family member permanently emigrated from former Yugoslavia. This is not explicitly mentioned as a requirement anywhere in the law. But, implicitly, based on the documentation you would be providing for your citizenship application, you would think that a government servant could determine that your family member established a life permanently outside of former Yugoslavia. The only place where I have found official information about this requirement is on one single Ministry of the Interior webpage, which is in Croatian. (You do not have to speak Croatian at all to become a citizen if you are from the diaspora.)
If you are in the diaspora abroad and your family is from Bosnia, most likely you are not eligible under Article 11, and you are instead eligible under Article 16, which is way more difficult to obtain. Article 16 is way more subjective and arbitrary too, when it comes to requirements, so you can have a tremendously hard time with the bureaucracy.
The articles of the citizenship law (translated into English) appear dubiously straightforward: https://www.refworld.org/pdfid/5ac3799f4.pdf [Note: This is not updated with this year's amendments to the law]
It is a mistake to read Croatian laws exclusively via English translations, regardless of whether they are official translations or machine translated. You miss a lot of context and detail that is needed for success. Croatian is very concise, clean, and direct (with respect to interaction/communication), in comparison to English. The grammatical cases in Croatian contain a lot of context that is missed via human translation and machine translation into English, too.
All applicants must understand that every single Croatian government servant is "thinking in Croatian" when you are interacting with them (or your application), even though their English is fine and they are fluent. When I showed up at the Croatian consulate in Los Angeles, I was told by the consul general (who is now an ambassador in a strategic location in an EU country, to establish better economic ties) that I could not become a Croatian citizen, because the family members that were emigrants were my 4 great-grandparents (I am half Croatian and I am legitimately culturally American and Croatian through my family) from Dalmatia (coastline Croatia), rather than a grandparent or a parent.
I did not expect this "news" but I had come prepared. I showed him the "family tree" I created, in Croatian. Croatian citizenship law allows direct lineal descendants of emigrants, to the third degree, to become citizens. So, he counted the generations of my family, starting with me, and determined, right then and there, that I was right and that I could become a citizen.
The Croatian consulate in LA is the friendliest of all of them, and they actually have a handout now for applying. They also recommend providing a fa...
I should be eligible under S. 4 where it makes it sound like I'm already a citizen. But yeah, I got the feeling proving it would still be a slow and painful process where it could take a while to gather it all. And I'd only have to deal with 2 parents' records (I think?). They'll be listed as hrvati, but finding originals of the birth certs is a question.
But kinda worried about a parent trying to make an EU trip if ETIAS ever goes live, and being unable to because they don't have an EU passport to travel on. So a lot of paperwork might get sorted out for me anyway.
Just haven't bothered to follow through with it unless I saw myself needing it. And it's increasingly likely I'll be eligible for another EU passport in the near future anyway.
It's chump change to get Croatian citizenship. I only had to pay the Croatian government $235 in 2018 to get it. I was granted it in 10 months. Likewise, getting the putovnica (passport) is easy as can be. I got my Putovnica at the Croatian Los Angeles consulate in the US as soon as I found out about ETIAS.
Remember that Croatia is very pro-EU, for obvious reasons that should never be mentioned (war), so I look at it as a form of insurance. I also use my Croatian citizenship primarily for healthcare, by the way. That is an awful thing to say, but I do believe in the Croatian nation and project and I am definitely Croatian-American, from a cultural standpoint. I have things to bring to the table.
Since both of your parents are legally Croatian citizens, you become Croatian under Article 4 through a form called a "citizenship affirmation" (if I am correct..I could be wrong. You should call, not email the consulate. I would call the LA consulate. They guy who answers the phone is both a Croatian lawyer and an electrical engineer. He really knows what he is talking about when it comes to citizenship matters, and knows them backwards and forwards). This is probably the form you need to fill out for your citizenship application: https://mup.gov.hr/UserDocsImages//2020/Obrasci/Dr%C5%BEavlj...
As you can see, the requirements are written on the bottom of the page.
You will need the Domovnica (citizenship certificates) for both of your parents.
The Croatian government almost never tells you this, but they will retrieve Domovnica, rodni list (birth certificates), etc., for around $67/document. You do that through the consulate you are assigned to, and that is who you mail with the check. This is the form you fill out to get these documents. You also need to make a copy of a driver's license or a national ID card, and enclose it in the envelope, as this is required too. I would also include a written statement with all of this: http://www.mvep.hr/_old/Portals/US/download/ZAHTJEV_ZA_DOSTA...
Typically, the consulates keep this information about retrieving documents under wraps, unless you are friendly with them, and you catch their interest...
But, this is typically the form one would fill out if applying for citizenship, especially if applying under article 11: https://mup.gov.hr/UserDocsImages/dokumenti/drzavljanstvo/ob...
http://ca.mvep.hr/files/file/dmku/ca/Croatian-Citizenship-Ov...
Looks quite permissive.
You are awesome! Sorry for the late reply. I have been sick.
It looks like you would be eligible under D). I am assuming you were born before 1991. If your parents do not have their Domovnica (Croatian citizenship certificate) yet, there is a process for doing that. But, the form that I provided in the link in the previous post is the same one that was provided under D).
But yeah, the laws are quite permissive. Having a friendly consulate makes all the difference. :-)
One thing you should be aware of: Canada does not do Apostille on documents. There is a special certification process that you have to do with your documents from Canada, which the consulate will help you with.
But, I do hope you apply for Croatian citizenship. It really is worth the effort, and if you have a helpful consulate, it makes all the difference.
edit: seeing multiple other comments here that is already a member so I guess I am mistaken
My parent moved with us to USA, when I was 18. That's my dark blue passport.
When I was working as Software engineer in California, our company got aquired and they asked us to relocate to Canada. I got PR here and soon will have light blue passport here.
Personal thoughts:
USA citizenship gives me best opportunities and access to best job market.
Canada citizenship gives me best social net: free health care, lower-cost education for my kids.
Russian citizenship gives me hope of protection from western injustice system (Snowden-style) or left cancel culture.
Russia has very low taxes for contractors, so that combined with the American foreign earned income tax credit results in tremendous tax savings. Also, I'm on the Black Sea so the weather is better than the rest of Russia. Downside is the political situation, obviously.
This doesn't really exist, it's a right-wing myth used to fuel all sorts of "conservatives are under attack" type nonsense.
Weaponized victim complex bullshit.
Older generations had different demographics, and white men are still in power from those generations... in no small part because they were the ones who were in the majority.
There remains a bit of blindness to the problems of non-white non-male persons among the 'ruling elites'... But these same cohort of leaders were pursuing a program of diversity, inclusion, and meritocracy over the last several decades.
To say white/male as default isn't a problem isn't exactly true (see, for example, how medical research has historically been conducted mostly on young white male volunteers), but to say that it isn't changing is also not exactly true -- demographics are changing in the US and the composition of institutions of power is also changing.
I had this exact same experience when renewing my contractor visa in Germany. I'd suggest bringing a printed copy of the requirements list from the German ausländerbehörde website with you whenever you show up to these appointments.
Oof, planning to circumvent procedures that countries established to protect their people. What a dick.
I've been abroad and living between countries for a decade, and one of my hobbies is researching every way an American can get second citizenship and, in particular, residency. That said, I admit I don't have a lot of knowledge about citizenship by ancestory.
Looks like you lived in Padova for quite some time. I was there for 6 months or so back in 2003. Would love to visit again. My family there is mostly in Milano but from Cuneo and Sardegna. :)
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