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There is still the problem of FTL information transfer violating causality, but I have wondered if sub-light warp drive might not be physically possible.

It wouldn’t be FTL but it would be a kind of “massless” drive in that it would get around the propellant mass issues with accelerating to near light speed. It would “cheat” by warping space instead of accelerating at all in the conventional sense.

The Centauri system is a little under 5 years away with such a drive.

Because of special relativity, it wouldn't even be 5 years on the ship.

A massless drive would open up exploration of the galaxy within the life time of a human being. Even though on Earth, thousands of years would pass, so it's kind of a one-way exploration nevertheless.

Would you still get time dilation with a warp drive? Are you actually "moving?"
If by "warp drive" you mean a drive that would be contracting spacetime in front of the ship and expanding it behind, then this ship wouldn't be subject to time dilation.

As it is not the ship that is exceeding the speed of light within a local reference frame (the "warp bubble) but the spacetime.

But the feasibility of such a drive is purely understood at the moment as it seems such a drive would allow for causality violations.

This is the problem I have with most discussions of a practical Alcubierre style warp drive. They generally don't address the causality violations that are inherent in ANY form of FTL travel. But if it could be useful as an efficient sub-luminal drive, that would be cool and worth pursuing.
Based on papers like this, I suspect that some form of sub-FTL "warp" drive may be at least physically possible. Whether it's practical to build any time in the foreseeable future is another question. The energy requirements would be beyond what we can do today and would probably require highly efficient compact fusion.
Causality violations probably aren't really that much of a problem for mathematical physics. Geroch (a very well known and highly cited relativist) takes a shot at this in a short paper considering a "democracy of causal cones" rather than simply the one that matches light: "All systems, and their cones, are on an equal footing: No one set of fields, or one set of causal cones, has priority over any others." Geroch's argument is that one can still do initial-value-formulation physics even in the presence of causal cones whose width is different -- including wider -- than that of light.

https://arxiv.org/abs/1005.1614 -- it is highly technical, but has this as the kicker:

"we would then insist that the final field configuration is, not what the observer wills it to be, but rather what follows, evolving these data via [dynamical equations]"

Notably, this is backwards from the Alcubierre drive's formulation, which starts with a desired final field configuration, and is trapped by having no "before the bubble existed" initial values surface. The Alcubierre solution is eternal, and offers no way to be stitched into our apparently non-eternal universe (it sure seems to have a beginning, or at least an early hot/dense boundary close to which the presence of an Alcubierre bubble seems even less physically plausible than today).

Although it is safe to describe really fantastical configurations of matter very near that early boundary, one has to settle things down in far less than seconds, in order to match several different lines of evidence of about the distribution of the first free-streaming photons (and the earlier free-streaming neutrinos, when we figure out how to build observatories to study them in detail). You could put Alcubierre bubbles everywhere during Cosmic Inflation, for instance, but you have to very quickly and aggressively suppress their observables.

Let's turn this on its head: we can in principle construct a spacelike values-surface at time today and let it evolve. A problem we have with this is that the presence of either or both of not-yet-formed or formed-but-eventually-evaporating black holes makes a complete calculation of some far future values-surface impossible in principle, as far as we know, which means in the absence some new fundamental theory of quantum gravity that has yet to be discovered. Putting an Alcubierre drive onto the same today values-surface likewise blocks the complete calculation of the future values-surface, in principle. Dusting the cosmos with lots of Alcubierre drives makes things much worse. But maybe that's OK, because the cosmos appears to be dusted with lots of black holes and configurations of matter (like our own Virgo cluster) that will inevitably mostly settle into giant black holes that may one day evaporate. This means we can't really make a concrete prediction about the far future of our cosmos, in principle. I wouldn't sweat it, because we can't set down much more than the barest approximation of the real values-surface in practice anyway.

So since we already have problems with causality thanks to gravitational singularities (or if you prefer, apparent trapping surfaces), and we have excellent evidence of them existing in our universe, an argument that "X poses problems for causality and therefore must be unphysical" is not especially compelling.

Instead, the problem grinds down into [a] laying out an initial values surface gets harder, especially if we can't rely on a programme of pushing it further and further back in time so that unusual configurations of matter (black holes, Alcubierre bubbles) have the ability to develop through dynamical laws (which is what we do with physical cosmology, for instance); and [b] writing down the dynamical laws that relate neighbouring value...

I've downloaded the Geroch paper and will give it a look, although it's probably over my head. My college physics classes were a long time ago. I nevertheless remain dubious that unrestricted causality violations are possible, but I'm happy to listen to arguments to the contrary.
The point is that causality violations don't happen just because of FTL, and that a good choice of values-surfaces reveals that.

"Preferred" foliations are perfectly fine in relativity when picked out by the matter. Working relativists do it all the time. One just has to be careful about preserving Lorentz-covariance for observers whose time axis is badly misaligned from the "preferred" one, because the (invariant sector of) physics must be identical for them. In particular a good choice of time axis along which to split spacetime values into time-ordered spatial values is a thermodynamic arrow of time that applies to the vast majority of the matter subject to dynamical equations.

Example preferred foliations are the cosmological scale factor, and terrestrial atomic time like UTC; they are picked out by the symmetries of the matter (large scale homogeneity and isotropy, near-sphericity and near-rotationlessness, respectively). "Lab frames" for example, are often UTC. That relativity provides mechanism to transform tensor-components as one switches systems of coordinates (or frames) is a great freedom.

The point is that in e.g. the cosmological foliation, an FTL (but not instantaneous) traveller will only be at one location on a cosmlogical values surface.

Geroch's point is that one should just accept this picture and calculate the evolution of field-values in the presence of objects with causal cones of different widths. There is no causality violation with very gentle assumptions about the spacetime. There are likely to be weird observations though, peculiar to the observers. But we can already have weird stroboscopic effects and so forth for merely very fast (not even relativistic!) travellers thanks to thinks like the persistence of vision or analogues in cameras and detectors.

However, an instantaneous traveller (>>>>> FTL, literally infinite speed and causal cones that are infinite in width) may mathematically appear up to infinite times on a single spacelike hypersurface. This does make a mess unless one can extract from the FTL traveller's configuration an equation of motion with enough constraints to make predictions. (For instance, if you have too many copies in the same "slice" of spacetime, does the entire spacetime collapse into a black hole? Can the copies be inside each other? Or only the bosons? And so on.)

Finally, a backwards time traveller need not even do FTL. Again, it will appear twice (or more) on well-chosen values surfaces, posing no problems for causality analysis. Here we return to the question of the thermodynamic arrow-of-time.

Let's consider a Rocket(with some amount of fuel) accelerating (gently) to the right, leaving an exhaust, that an intertial observer ticking at t watches :

  t_0 R(10)             
  t_1 eR(9)             
  t_2 eeR(8)
  t_3 eeeR(7)
  t_4 eeeeR(6)
in this small picture one would pick out a thermodyanmic arrow of time pointing downwards, because the rocket+exhaust's Boltzmann entropy is increasing. The fuel is well-ordered in the rocket's tank, and much more disordered in the exhaust.

But the dynamical equations in this arrangement of matter is perfectly reversible. Let's complicate this a bit:

  t_0 R(10)        eeeeeeeeeR(1)
  t_1 eR(9)        eeeeeeeeR(2)
  t_2 eeR(8)       eeeeeeeR(3)
  t_3 eeeR(7)      eeeeeeR(4)
  t_4 eeeeR(6)     eeeeeR(5)
Here we have what time travel looks like with this foliation: A rocket behaving normally, and a rocket that is picking up fuel from a hot exhaust, storing it orderly into its tank.

R, moving gently through space, sees the thermodynamically-opposite copy out the window in both directions. R believes there is a weird causality violation, because one copy of R sees a copy of itself with less fuel (and wristwatches showing times in the future, but ticking backwards).

However, t just sees a time traveller, whe...

> They generally don't address the causality violations

So the stated problem with causality violations is that if you went to the past and did something the(n), it's going to change the future from which you started.

What if it doesn't? As in, you can't really do anything which changes future, for a reason that an arbitrary numbers of time travelers have already went to past, changed it and had it reflected in the future, so after all those changes the timeline stabilized in an eigenline - that is, the future is robust towards any subsequent changes via the past. In this way there is no causality violation - go ahead, travel to past, try to change anything, the whole world is arranged so that the future won't be affected, one way or another. Roughly speaking, you won't succeed trying to kill your grandfather no matter how'd you try - something will always happen which would prevent it.

The article is incorrect.

If you check the paper, they are clear that physical warp drive do not allow faster than light travel. It moves only at subluminal speeds. In any case, warp drives (physical or non-physical) are just theoretically interesting.

Taking mass of few solar systems and building a tiny microscopic vehicle that fits inside the bubble is not practical way to travel.

> Taking mass of few solar systems and building a tiny microscopic vehicle that fits inside the bubble is not practical way to travel.

Fully agree. If interstellar travel ever occurs, it seems more practical to simply freeze people for thousands or millions of years for the journey and stop trying to fit it into the current human lifespan.

It sounds like we have a volunteer!
And yesterday it was unimaginable that anybody would need more than a megabyte of memory.

All we need is artificial mass.

> All we need is artificial mass.

That's doesn't make sense.

All the space-warping utility of a neutronium moonlet with none of the inconvenience.
> All we need is artificial mass.

I think you meant negative mass.

No need to freeze whole people, we can just freeze human eggs.
That are gestated in artificial wombs and reared by robots? Sounds like we'd be better off freezing people.
or have people be immortalized as robots that only require basic resources to maintain themselves.
I don't know about the physics of the article, but they get the lore of Star Trek wrong right off the bat. Warp drive is certainly not explained in Star Trek in terms of direct propulsion from matter-antimatter collision. That is how the impulse (sub-lightspeed) engines work. Warp is explained as a reaction involving exotic matter that creates a field surrounding the ship to warp spacetime.
Wait - the warp engine doesn't generate power using matter-antimatter annihilation??
My memory is a little fuzzy. Matter-antimatter may in fact be involved in the warp drive, but it's definitely not direct propulsion.
Warp engines are powered by annihilation, since it's an "easy" fuel, but the annihilation itself doesn't move the ship. Similar to how nuclear-powered ships and submarines don't detonate nukes to push themselves forward.
> Similar to how nuclear-powered ships and submarines don't detonate nukes to push themselves forward.

Picturing this in my head was certainly a treat :)

The original series was a bit fuzzy on just what role the matter-antimatter engines (and dilithium crystals) played in making warp drive possible. From the Next Generation era onward, the idea was basically that a matter-antimatter engine was the only practical way to generate the enormous power required to generate the warp field needed to go FTL via warp drive.
Except for the Romulans using some sort of captured/artificial singularities (white holes?) for their power generation IIRC.
Undersized black holes. Maintained and dragged along with the ship by manipulating the gravitational frame of reference in the engine core.

In TNG, they don't practically behave much differently from the warp core, but some of the video game spin-offs had fun with the idea, having destroyed Romulan warbirds collapse into their own engine core, which then evaporated because it was unstable outside of the confines of the gravitational field.

It's a nice way to prevent enemies from salvaging your ships. Seems appropriate for the Romulans!
The entirety of Star Trek revolves around using deuterium-antideuterium annihilation as an energy source. They use those reactors for two things that are essential to the ST setting: warp drive and matter replicators. Both require an astounding amount of energy, made possible by the matter-antimatter reactors, and both address the twin issues of faster-than-light travel and post-scarcity society.

The "warp core" on a ship is just the power plant. The nacelles under the saucer house the "field coil" machinery that generates a warp field.

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Warp_drive

Except for Star Trek Discovery where the energy source is...mold.
No, the fungi give them access to the subspace mycelial network which they can navigate/transverse in order execute what is basically galactic-scale teleportation.

Yes, this is gobbledygook. But no moreso than regular "subspace" or anything else in Trek.

For power (ed: including their standard warp drive), the Discovery still has a plain old M/AM reactor. And yes, I did just use the phrase "plain old M/AM reactor" hah

Am I the only one who appreciates that a show with the acronym STD is all about space fungus?
Eh, but in practice the only people who use STD rather than DSC are people who don't like it and go out of their way to shit on those who do.

So using "STD" has turned into kind of a unsavory gatekeepy dogwhistle. It tends to bring out the worst types of stereotypical toxic fandom. /r/DaystromInstitute even automod-bans it for that reason.

ugh.. had no idea. sometimes I hate the internet
DIS is a better short form anyway, matches VOY and ENT.
>> That is how the impulse (sub-lightspeed) engines work.

That's wrong too. In TOS, it was basically a fusion rocket driving plasma rockets. In TNG and later, they added a sub-space field to decrease the mass of the ship involved.

> In TOS, it was basically a fusion rocket driving plasma rockets.

Yeah even in TNG-era the impulse engine is fusion, used for both sublight propulsion and as a backup power source.

Why YES, I DID bust out my old Tech Manual. Thank you for asking. Page 75.

In the TNG tech manual, they did say that there is a sub-space field reducing inertial mass :)
Oh I know. I wasn't disagreeing haha
I remember once seeing a detailed volume of "Star Trek Engineering" in a book store. The drawings were pretty and clearly had taken time to prepare.

As much as one may find popular entertainment diverting, and maybe even think Roddenberrianism is anything more than Cowboys in Space, this popular culture is nonetheless an oceanic quantity of codswalllop disguised as something essential in consumerism.

Whether or not Bart Simpson mocked Batman with cutting sarcasm, our obsession with this rubbish has left Democracy vulnerable to usurpation by... Klingons and Ferengi. (o;

They should just explain it in terms of units of distance. For example, how many parsecs would it be for the kessel run?
I'd argue there isn't "a" lore of Star Trek. I was given the ST:TNG technical manual a while back, which is nominally derived from the show's bible, and while interesting and amusing in its own way, its correspondence with the show itself is... loose. Not zero by any means, but loose. Some things it claims can do things we never, ever see in the show (hand phasers are spec'd out a great deal more powerful than "usually throw some sparks, occasionally vaporize a person", ship weapons are spec'd to work at a great deal longer than the point-blank range we almost always see), some limits it claims exist are broken fairly routinely (I think it wasn't until Voyager that you got a serious attempt at spec'ing a ship's speed in terms that match the show, and even they were still fuzzy on the implications at times).

And the show's own correspondence with itself is also quite loose.

Honestly, people's fuzzy ideas about how warp drives work are probably pretty accurate because I don't think there's a lot of reason to believe that the show in general had anything other than an equally fuzzy idea. Specific writers for specific episodes may have, but I wouldn't say there was "a" lore to argue so firmly about.

> warp speed travel is now a lot more likely in a much shorter timespan than we previously thought.

That is cool, but at the same time it only works for subluminal speeds so not really what "warp" speed usually refers to.

Offtopic, but it kinda reminds me of the science fiction story of a young scientist trying to get funding for hyperspace research. In the end it turns out that hyperspace has been explored decades ago but the speed of light is even lower in hyperspace than in real space.

> warp speed travel is now a lot more likely in a much shorter timespan than we previously thought.

That's some cold comfort, since all timespans are much shorter than "never".

When the whole universe is in a stable thermal equilibrium after the last proton decays, what's the meaning of time and space anyway?
Protons don't decay (as far as we can tell), they get ripped apart in black holes which evaporate into photons, mostly.

All that's left are photons, moving at the speed of light, experiencing no time, and never meeting each other as the universe expands away faster than they move.

"It's hard to bore a photon." -- Roger Penrose

They may decay, but when the lower bound for their half-life is more than 10^36 years, it'll certainly be very hard to observe it.
agree for science fiction usage, but from a physics perspective, the "warp" is warping spacetime to travel. to warp spacetime is independent of the relative velocity.
Even if it only gets us to subluminal speeds, that's still promising for Solar System exploration; even 1% of the speed of light would get us to pretty much anywhere in the Solar System within days or weeks rather than months or years.
(comment deleted)
Perhaps a good time to post this short story “The Road Not Taken”:

https://eyeofmidas.com/scifi/Turtledove_RoadNotTaken.pdf

It’s a fun read. (20 pages)

Thanks. There are lots of files one directory up.

If we are at short sci-fi stories... I fell in love with Marc Stiegler's ' The Gentle Seduction' which I revisit every few months for pure enjoyment. Found it listed here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7203702

I had never read that. I'm glad I took the time! Good story.
Oh thanks esquire. So instead of negative energy particles we only need floating bubbles of spacetime! How did we miss that
Physicist: we have proven that warp drive is possible. Here you go engineers, your move.
Engineers: Uh, okay, physicists. With which kind of magic?
If you’re saying traveling faster than the speed of light is possible, you’re also saying traveling backwards in time is possible. And yet people tend to be very skeptical of backwards time travel claims.
How does FTL imply time travel?
A few explanations I've collected:

https://www.askamathematician.com/2012/07/q-how-does-instant...

http://www.physicsmatt.com/blog/2016/8/25/why-ftl-implies-ti...

http://www.theculture.org/rich/sharpblue/archives/000089.htm...

The important bit is that it doesn't matter HOW information is transmitted FTL – it can be via wormholes or magic. For observers in another reference frame it will still result in causality violations.

An easy-to-understand example:

If I got in a faster than light spaceship and traveled to Jupiter, and then turned around and came right back, I would arrive before I left and could shake my own hand on the launchpad.

If we think humans will soon figure out FTL, it makes one wonder why we've not yet seen any human FTL spaceships from the future.

That...doesn't make sense.

Let's say your spaceship can go to Jupiter in one second (Edit: as measured from Earth), which would require FTL speed. Then you turn around and come back. You've still arrived two seconds after you left.

At Jupiter, you could look through a super-telescope and see yourself still on Earth, but you still aren't really seeing yourself, because you are not still on Earth. You are just seeing the photons you passed during the trip, catching up to you.

Yeah, it doesn't make sense because it's not correct.

FTL enables a kind of time travel that isn't going back in time to shake your own hand. It allows two people in two different reference frames to disagree about whether A caused B or B caused A. You don't get to go "back in time" but you can send somebody lottery results before they're drawn (from somebody's perspective).

> FTL enables a kind of time travel that isn't going back in time to shake your own hand.

That is exactly what it is. You should read the links above to understand what's being claimed.

The links discuss FTL communication implying communicating through time. I haven't taken the time to fully understand the arguments, so for the sake of this discussion I'm willing to simply assume that their conclusions are correct.

Now... Please explain to me how communicating through time will allow you to literally, physically, shake your own hand as was claimed.

It's the same argument, just instead of assuming one can send information FTL, one can send matter. Or you assume a teleporter exists.
I've never seen this explained in a way that made any sense to me, ELI5?
If you reframe "speed of light" as "speed of the propagation of information" the traveling faster than light means information about an event can be received before the event happens from the perspective of the observer. Remember we know it to be true that there is no universal authoritative "now" all observers will see things happening at different times and none of them are wrong or seeing an illusion in that.

Why this is effectively time travel is harder to explain without getting into relativity and I'm not going to try right now. The main thing to get though is that you just can't observe events before they happen. It violates causality and if you allow for that (like you totally can with math) then nothing makes any sense and you can't use that math to describe how we know the world to work in any useful way.

> "the traveling faster than light means information about an event can be received before the event happens from the perspective of the observer"

Why is that a problem? So let's say I'm on the moon and you're on Earth, and you're watching me through a telescope. I use an FTL cell phone to text you "Hi". Your phone buzzes, you read the message, then visually observe me through the telescope typing the message before you've received it. I guess I just don't understand why that really matters or violates causality. You're just seeing outdated information. There's no way you can interact with my "past" self that you can see through the telescope, it's just a visual artifact.

That’s true until you factor in relativity, which the person above you was trying to avoid. Basically, if someone were traveling near the speed of light (and in the right direction) they would see the person get the text on the moon before the person on the earth sent the message. And it’s not just a matter of perspective either, if they had an FTL phone they could see the message received on the moon and then text the person on earth before he sent the message, preventing him from sending it in the first place.

The explanation for this is complicated, however, so I would suggest you look at the links provided earlier in these comments for a more comprehensive explanation.

If I got into a FTL spaceship, I could go out in space, turn around, come back, and interact with my previous self. I could even tell my past-self that I didn't find anything of value -- and that there's no reason to go at all. Maybe the original me decides not to go, and now there's two copies of myself on Earth.

These are the sort of contradictions that break our understand of causality once you introduce FTL.

So the main thing and again I'm not really equipped to explain the relativity behind this but I do think I understand it somewhat.

The main thing in the situation you're describing is that it's one way. Make it two way, imagine getting a message saying "don't send that message" from someone who has already seen the message you're about to send.

You can imagine this and that's part of the problem understanding the issue I think. But if this combination of events was possible very many things that we know to be true about spacetime would have to not be true.

You got your sentence wrong. You receive the message BEFORE you see the person through the telescope typing the message, i.e. it takes 2.5 seconds for light to reach us from the moon, you would get the message 2.5 seconds before you see the person typing it assuming the FTL messaging system was instantaneous.
> Essentially, an Alcubierre drive would expend a tremendous amount of energy—likely more than what’s available within the universe—to contract and twist space-time in front of it and create a bubble.

What does this actually mean? We’d have two giant Tesla coils buzzing with a universe worth of electricity? Giant magnets? Super space lasers?

this paper is extremely annoying, they could have at least given some examples of the amount of energy that would be required to create their warp teardrop bubbles using their new equations
This is going to be about that shitty Alcubierre drive again isn't it?