Even as a British citizen who likes city life, London in particular never tempted me, because of both the nationally infamous housing cost and the un-fun experience of Tube travel.
I used to commute by boat, from Putney Pier to Embankment and back. Short walk to both the office and home at either end, and it was marginally cheaper than a season ticket on the tube, and infinitely more pleasant, usually.
Last time I lived in London I actually enjoyed trying to use the bus as much as possible. Riding on the top of a double decker bus is a nice experience: there is almost always seating available, the views are better, the air is less stuffy / you're less likely to melt in the summer, you are more likely to get directly from point A to point B, and it's cheaper.
All that combined means it's much easier / more enjoyable to do some work / read a book on your commute if you're using the bus, which for me was worth the extra journey time.
Obviously for longer journeys you still need the tube/train, but I lived fairly centrally so was able to either bus or bike 90% of the time.
I lived in London most of my life, but I am thinking about moving to a smaller city. What would you recommend in terms of safety, access to tech scene and property prices?
It's much easier to get a remote gig, so it seems like a location will no longer be a problem.
If you're looking for pastoral splendor and thinking beyond the extreme commuter belt, try the north-east. I went out with a lady from there for some years, and traveled up from London most weekends.
Like Romania, it has an almost impenetrable firewall of negative PR that isn't born out by the experience of living there. Yes, there's an ugly old ICI factory that covers several square miles (the emblem of the region). But everything beyond that is gorgeous, green and largely untrammeled. I shall never forget walking through waterfall-strewn valleys and splendid forests and meeting hardly anyone else except some friendly dog-walkers.
I definitely enjoyed Cambridge and its commuter villages. Lots of tech employment, the villages are cheaper than the city itself and close enough to commute by bicycle.
Plymouth was decent enough, but I was only there as an industrial placement student, so I’m not sure about non-student prices.
Aberystwyth is pretty, but tiny, ~4 hours from anywhere that isn’t rural Wales regardless of your mode of transport, and literally 30% of the population are students. I didn’t stay long after graduation precisely because of the lack of tech jobs.
Portsmouth area is terrible for the tech scene — I grew up close to there, my siblings still live nearby, but when one of them was job hunting they ended up getting one just outside Farnborough with a one hour commute.
Sheffield is cheap, but I was trying to be a self-employed game dev when I was there, so I can’t say anything about the tech scene.
If you still care about location for everything except work, there’s lots of pretty countryside on the South Downs, Norfolk, Aberystwyth area, and west of Sheffield. St. Ives (the one near Cambridge) is probably one of the best combinations of cheap and pretty (just be aware of the flood zones).
I used to live in Harrow on the Hill. Zone 5, but great connection to central London with the metropolitan line. Much better commute than when I lived in Parsons Green, which was zone 2!
If you have a partner on a similarly decent salary, then probably quite comfortably. If you are the only significant earner, then probably not that comfortably. I managed to buy a 2-bed flat in zone 2 in 2013 for £400k but it has no garden and has other downsides that I would have liked to avoid if I could have afforded more. You have to really be earning CEO levels of pay or buy with a partner in order to live really comfortably within zone 2.
We own a 3 story 4 bedroom townhouse with garden and garage in Enfield, ~ 400k. Mortgage is about 1400 a month. The countryside is close by, both Hertfordshire and Essex.
Housing is expensive in rough proportion to how central you are, and especially how close to tube stations you are. But it's also possible to live quite well. My commute would be a little over 1 hour each way by public transport, but I generally used a motorbike, closer to 35 minutes.
We are however leaving, in large part due to Brexit. I'm Irish, my partner is German, and neither of us wants our son to be schooled in this country. The political situation is heading in an Orban-like direction, they're locking up EU citizens at the border and the anti-EU rhetoric from leadership and tabloids is relentless.
I would not come here as an EU citizen.
I quit my job and joined Google in part because they'll relocate me to Zurich.
Enfield is a completely different ballpark than London.
500k is what I want to spend for housing as well and it would merely buy a sad flat in London.
The cost of housing, the weather, the incoming tax hikes, progressive teachers and teenagers with knives are the reason I'm relocating somewhere else (Brexit didn't change much).
That said, for buying a house, I'm personally looking to one of the commuter towns. Somewhere like Woking, Basildon, Cheshunt... Maybe even out near Gatwick somewhere. I grew up next to an airport so I actually find the sound nice.
Enfield is in Greater London. It's 25 to 35 minutes by rail from central London depending on which service you use, if you're measuring station to station. It's physically closer than Croydon, Kingston upon Thames, Twickenham etc. It's connected by national rail, the Overground, and the Picadilly line in Chase Side.
The biggest material impact of Brexit for me right now is the much greater difficulty in importing stuff, wine especially. But when we get back to international travel, the border will make more difference. Goods to declare, for one thing.
How many people do you think live in the EU? Because the largest countries (China and India, respectively) 'only' have about 1.3 billion people each, about 3x the EU at 450 million. Even the entire rest of the earth combined won't get you to "north of 20x" that number.
As some who has to get work permits in 2 different countries, and have friends who did in 10, I can testify that British immigration system is one of the most difficult, arbitrary and expensive, far supassing Spain, portugal, Germany, Czech Republic, Canada, Mexico, Brazil, Ireland, France, etc
The only immigration system I am aware of that's more hostile is US.
Obviously there are many countries I know nothing about
I'd think that's an outlier experience. Clearly it depends on various circumstances and there is a more of less hidden institutionalized racism involved, but as a German, immigrating to USA was smooth sailing (via green card lottery in my case).
More important however might be the interaction with locals. And from what I witnessed, Americans (well, Californians at least) are much more welcoming than Germans.
Or working for a bank, which is the classic high-paid London job. The pure software engineers get paid less than quants/traders (which can get astronomical comp depending on what exactly they do) but usually still very substantial.
I'm from the UK so the section "What percentage of your salary goes to taxes?" seemed perfectly normal to me.
The way the "comment from the editor" is written ("Unfortunately, in England, higher salaries will mean higher tax rates." and "England's tax brackets can be slightly confusing") make it sound like this is not commonly how it works in other counties.
Could anyone tell me about how this differs from where you are?
I definitely can't, I haven't seen a country where it doesn't work the same way as in the UK. I suspect the author gets confused by the tiered tax rates the same way everyone is, where they think that if you make 45,001 GBP, you are now going to pay more tax on the entire amount, rather than just the extra GBP.
It's astounding that people smart enough to land a job that pays enough to push them into the higher rate band of income tax are so often confused about how their taxes are actually calculated!
Not really. At least in the US, the tax code is lobbied to be kept intentionally confusing so that TurboTax et al can continue to make a lot of money off doing it for you.
The UK taxes are, in all fairness, the simplest I have ever seen (and I've made a point of learning about and comparing several countries). You can use a calculator such as Listen To Taxman [0] and be within a 1% error margin from the reality.
Of course, there are always edge cases, and the government has deliberately made some areas a mess (case in point: contractors); but the base use case of standard salary is insanely simple. And, for our American friends, the NHS is included.
This section of the article has a detailed explanation on tax brackets in the UK, including a worked example for an "average software developer salary", so this is clearly not the case.
I disagree that the total number does not influence the usage of the term many.
In the middle of the desert outside of a population center, one might call a group of 6 people "many", but one would never use the same term to refer to 6 grains of sand.
Czechia is said to have progressive system here, but it actually has a flat rate (at least if our own Ministry of Finance is to be believed). IIRC the same is the case with Poland.
50 countries is stretching it, isn't it? TBH I meant EU (27), but I don't even know what are all the 23 other?
Croatia is a very special case. The salaries are quoted as "neto" (net), but the taxes are actually quite complicated. There is a so-called "bruto" (gross) figure, which is the formal one (e.g. it's used for employment contracts) and includes taxes - _just not all of them!_ So the actual amount that a company pays for an employee is the unofficial so-called "bruto 2", which includes some taxes that are calculated based on the "bruto" amount, meaning that it taxes the taxes.
The most commonly used salary calculator [0] does a good job of taking all of that into account, so you can clearly see all three actual figures.
You can negotiate your net salary in graduated tax regimes as well. The math isn’t as clean, but as long as the tax calculation is deterministic, you can negotiate a salary so that you get a nice round number in your bank account every month.
For some reason this isn’t common practice. I’ve always found it weird that salaries are quoted in gross amount.
In some cases the round number may not be the “net” amount because eg maybe you have some rental income, or income from last year, moved to a new state, etc. But in most cases it’ll be pretty close.
One of the good things about UK taxes is that you don’t have to calculate them yourself and file a return. They are calculated by your employer and deducted from your salary.
It's generally a good idea to check them yourself as well. HMRC does sometimes make mistakes with people's tax codes, resulting in the wrong amount being taken off your pay, and your employer doesn't (and can't) correct those mistakes for you. Usually when there's a mistake it will eventually be corrected automatically by HMRC but that can leave you with an unexpected extra tax bill (or a refund, which is usually less of a problem), but those corrections happen months after the end of the tax year.
Also if you pass a certain income threshold you're required to fill in your own tax return anyway.
> HMRC does sometimes make mistakes with people's tax codes, resulting in
> the wrong amount being taken off your pay, and your employer doesn't
> (and can't) correct those mistakes for you
That is correct. However, HMRC sends you a letter with every tax code change, which is calculated and posted automatically; I've once received two separate letters, with two different tax codes, sent literally one day apart from each other. :D
And if you feel that you tax code is incorrect it is very easy to check your online HNRC account and correct any information they might have.
Anyone earning £100,000+ in the UK does have to file a return, however most of the calculations are done for you. Your employer handles all deductions from your payslip and gives you a summary form of all tax paid, which you then report in your tax return with additional details that might affect your taxes such as capital gains, additional pension contributions or investment and rental income.
Even more confusing is that the full quote at the beginning of that paragraph mentions capital gains tax right after:
"Unfortunately, in England, higher salaries will mean higher tax rates. Data released late in 2020 showed that Londoners contribute to nearly 30% of the country's capital gains tax"
??? Either the author mistakenly wrote capital gains instead of income, or they were just citing something completely irrelevant to the discussion.
Regarding the "confusing progressive tax rates", I agree with you. "Most systems around the world contain progressive aspects." [0] And a look at "tax rates around the world" shows most countries have higher marginal tax rates for higher incomes [1]
I found the wording "Unfortunately, in England, higher salaries will mean higher tax rates" to be slightly strange. To me, it's fortunate that those who earn less pay lower taxes than those of us who can afford more.
But then you have to factor in National Insurance contributions, which also have a (different) threshold below which they don't cost anything, then cost you 12% up to around the £50K mark, then cost you 2% over that.
And even that isn't quite the whole story, because you'll also lose certain child-related benefits starting from £50K if you have kids, so your effective rate for the next £10K or so can work out much higher than 40%.
Then there are the effects of not-unusual things like pension contributions and charitable donations, which can move things around a bit more.
It's hardly a surprise that people find the system confusing!
I think 25% is an underestimate. A typical tax level for someone on a professional salary in the UK is something like 30-35%. Remember there is the higher rate of income tax, NI, council tax, and so on.
Most people never interact with capital gains tax in their lives.
Well-paid freelance developers usually IR35 - set up a limited company, pay themselves the smallest possible salary which avoids National Insurance contributions, and take the rest as dividends.
This used to be an easy way to minimise tax, although now it's a more complex calculation. And HMRC have to be persuaded that you really are freelance, and not just a long-term contractor working on-site.
There other semi-legal dodges including companies which loan you your income - minimal tax - and then for various more or less credible reasons the loan is written off and never has to be repaid. HMRC usually take a while to catch to these kinds of schemes. But short term gain can lead to long-term pain because if they're ruled unlawful HMRC can claw back tax retrospectively.
I moved out of the UK a few years ago, and while there's a lot to dislike - which is why I moved - the tax laws are fairly generous to one-person small businesses. Brexit has now massively complicated this for anyone selling internationally, but UK B2B is not so bad.
As a native-born Brit who moved to Eastern Europe four years ago, there is some information in here I actually didn't know.
Also, as someone who has moved country twice (six years in Italy was the first time), I should note that this article doesn't deal with what I can only describe as general UK culture and the British character.
I would strongly advise anyone heading Britside to do what I did with Bucharest and have as long an 'exploratory' trip as you can to get a feel of the place: the way people look you in the eye (or don't); whether you sense hostility; and just the general social atmosphere. You can assess this kind of thing in a couple of weeks, usually, at least at a broad level.
As someone who gladly left, I'm obviously not the person to ask about whether you'd like living there. But it would be a good idea to stay with friends there, if possible, and scout that aspect out for yourself.
I wanted to settle in Europe prior to Brexit finalizing, but I felt I was kind of done with Italy, having lived all over that country. Romanian is another Romance language, like Italian, so I figured (quite wrongly!) that it would be easy to learn. It was a right move for the wrong reasons, and I eventually found everything I was looking for here, including well-paid remote work (prior even to COVID).
I don't really think that's a fair characterization of the mindset of the average Romanian woman, tbh, but rather seems 'drawn from the headlines'. Nor do I think the OP you're replying to meant that.
As a third-worlder from a loud country that's very happy after emigrating to Britain I had the opposite experience: the culture and the British character are big positives of living in London and the UK.
Maybe the grass is always greener on the other side, but I enjoy the quietness and helpfulness of the average Brit.
The only big negatives of UK culture for me are the general bad quality of produce outside of farmer's markets and the weird attachment everyone has to sash windows.
Same experience here. I'm originally from Italy, where the stereotype is friendly and warm people, I found Brits and Londoners in general to be quite easy to have a chat with, and relaxed around strangers especially after a pint or
three. After 7 years in this country, my experience hasn't changed and I've grown very fond of the "British way" of doing things, the humour and mentality.
While I moved to UK, part of my family moved to Switzerland (the French part of it), and their experience with Swiss people hasn't been as rosy as mine with Brits.
The thing that prevents me from wanting to live in the UK is the food… I’m sorry if I offend anyone but the UK is one of the worst places in the world I’ve been to for food.
The great thing about globalisation is that you're not limited to the local cuisine anymore. Pizza today, curry tomorrow and perhaps fish & chips the day after.
I'm curious where you're from and what kind of food you like to eat. And what kind of food you tried, your experience with it in the UK.
In my experience the food here can be really good. Food and choice in the supermarkets can be bad, and typical foods of those in poverty (including those who were raised under the spectre of rationing here) aren't good, but proper, traditional British food has a lot of variety and interest, in both produce and dishes.
From NZ, lived in Australia, currently living in Singapore. Travelled to a few parts of Europe and all around Asia and America.
I had a few good meals in the UK. In london near soho there’s a little pie shop. Mums pies or something. That was good. And a couple of other places. But majority of the food IMO is terrible and expensive.
Edit: oh and I like food in Asia. Taiwanese, Thai, Malaysian. And a good burger.
The UK has more top restaurants than most countries, and one occasion had literally the best restaurant in the world - as judged by the French of all people who I guess don't give it out lightly.
A Canadian friend who spent 3 months on a work assignment in London felt similarly. He said that compared to Toronto, British people were far more open to striking up conversation. In Toronto, if you walk into a bar by yourself, you can forget about trying to make small talk with somebody else unless they too are sitting alone.
Not to mention, there are numerous instances of people getting harassed on the train platform, or inside the train car, and no one steps up to help. They film the incident, but they don't intervene.
>>Not to mention, there are numerous instances of people getting harassed on the train platform, or inside the train car, and no one steps up to help. They film the incident, but they don't intervene.
Does this happen in the Tube, the MTA, or both? I unfortunately could see it happening in both depending on the time of day/night.
Absolutely agree on checking the situation on he ground before committing to move to another country. The culture and the expat vibe are going to be important factors in your life from here on out.
We did a winter in Nicaragua with the intention of scoping out the possibility of buying a house. It looks pretty good on paper, until you meet the grumpy expat American surfers who will be your pool of future friends and see the soulless dusty plots of building land with all the locals cleared out except one guy with a shotgun whose job is to sit the same plastic chair all day every day... yeah. Pass.
Naturally this is written from the perspective of a US expat developer with the entire world to chose from, so it’s a bit of a different situation to the one discussed in the article.
For most people, it’s not as simple as deciding to make friends with locals. People have various heuristics to determine the probability of rate of return (not financially speaking, but all around) on certain relationships, including differences in socioeconomic status, cultural background, age, etc.
The locals also probably already have their own friend circles (or tribes or whatever you want to call it), and it might take a lot of effort to break in, especially if there is a group of expats that are easier to communicate with.
It depends on the country and on how the locals view you. The locals may be very hesitant to make friends with you. Also, even if you and they are very friendly, you might just not have a lot in common with them. Of course, you should try to actually live in the country you move to rather than in some expat bubble, but you may find that your choices are expat bubble or just don't go. My choice would be not to go, but some are happy with the expat bubble.
That was kinda my point. It would be surprisingly difficult to settle in the little fishing village with the undiscovered point break that every surfer fantasizes about. Instead you’ll end up in one of the tourist towns that were never local villages in the first place, and thus don’t have any locals to hang out with, since they mostly live inland in towns jobs.
Puerto Rico, on the other hand does have towns full of Puerto Ricans all along the coast, so it’s possible to meet one of them who is not in the process of serving you a beer. That’s one of many reasons it ranks higher on my list of possible places to set up shop.
Every internet thread about anywhere popular is quickly filled with people saying that they tried it and didn't like it. That's natural and I think fine, and anyone considering moving to London should consider all the disadvantages.
But there are also great advantages: it's easy to find work here, it's a walkable place where there is no need to own a car (or even know how to drive), although many complain the weather is in fact very mild and it's very achievable for someone on a software engineer salary to raise a family close(ish) to the centre. Of course there's plenty of "cultural" whatnot too. I love it here and wouldn't move anywhere else.
If you are thinking about moving here, I'm happy to answer any "dumb" questions you have over email (see my profile).
Let me tell you a story. I am a linux kernel level developer. Even better, I have implemented multiple windows drivers in my life. And I have tried to implement application level firewall for linux as after 20 years there is still none around (I have abandoned the work as kernel was protected against my method). Proficient in C/C++/Rust/Go/Java/Python/Assembly/... or to rather say it in anything in Tiobe, even Prolog.
I have a nice job at my country at 2250 euros / month (which is twice the average salary) and I was asked to work for some company where I would get around 3000 euros/month.
And now it gets interesting. On interview, they will ask me various questions about my work that should theoretically be memorized by anyone comming from the school education. I have 25 years of development behind me and I dont have the "stack" to remember everything. And I am already decided to give them "fuck off" once they start with the theory.
On other side, I have a child from previous marriage and I will not leave the country for the sake of the team. Child development is more important to me.
So, I am over-competent engineer, bullied by idiotic recruiting, fixed in the position that I have, unable to relocate due to life circumstances. And now "moving to London" is a thing. Yeah right.
Your competencies might be real and correctly-assessed, but from your description, you sound like you might be difficult to work with.
I don't mean to extrapolate from Internet-rant to presumed-reality, but this is a common pattern, so maybe it's worth mentioning:
I can teach a person Prolog. Any reasonable developer can teach themselves Prolog.
I cannot teach a person, nor have I ever witnessed a person self-educate on a short (employer-relevant) timescale, the willingness and propensity to work cooperatively and constructively, if it is not in their nature at interview-time.
Sometimes the latter is much more important than the former.
Negativity is infectious, and people naturally steer clear.
This seems to be a really difficult point for some people to really wrap their head around. You can be as intelligent as you want, very rarely is someone going to hire you if you seem unpleasant to be around.
You could always pick one language to be an "expert" in and just study up on the book learning for that language for your interviews. I've shipped products in a dozen languages myself, but for an Android interview I'll only claim to be expert in Java and Kotlin, for iOS I'll only claim to know Objective-C and Swift, and for server I only claim to know Java and Go - even though I've shipped PhoneGap and React Native JS mobile apps, JS Node servers for startups that got funded, Amazon lambda functions triggered from Unity, etc.. Just not up to speed on the book learning/pop quiz/mind teaser type questions I'd get for those.
The primary disadvantage is the high cost of housing. That is the "root cause" of many other knock-on problems that are caused: inappropriate living space for some people, some with long commutes, some people feeling like they or others they know don't really live in London but instead in some dormitory town outside the M25. Until we can get the cost of housing under control there are all sorts of people who I would like to live here and "be part of it" but whose lines of work don't pay them enough to.
But this problem arguably exists in every Western city at the moment. I have my own pet policy ideas which I won't raise here. I will say that this problem seems to be markedly worse elsewhere, for example in American cities, Australia, Canada and also even on (western half of) the continent.
It is interesting how companies can justify sponsoring someone on the basis other than they cannot find a specialist for the money they are willing to pay.
Don't get me wrong - immigration should be encouraged and I think it should be easier for people from various backgrounds to come and contribute.
What isn't right, is that companies register huge profits (and often transfer them to tax havens) and don't share them with employees, while at the same time complaining they cannot find developers. Just pay more and you'll find plenty!
AFAIK in London you'll be making more as an Uber or cab driver than as a dev if you are not interested working in finance sector or at a couple of advertising shops.
Tons of relatively unknown companies making 100mln per year, paying 100k for seniors (usually stock comp is worthless though, that's how fang engineers make their money).
Personally I've always avoided fangs because of politics and having to commute in the office (which also means I could move outside of London).
It's not USA salaries but you get cheaper healthcare, more holidays, you can make some decent living and the extra freedom is welcome if you have a family or if you want to have a rich social life.
I agree. I know plenty unskilled workers who make more money than even senior devs. They are all self employed though.
I remember being quite frustrated when a friend who was a cleaner made fun of me that she was making more than me.
Investment is still high and it's likely to improve.
I would argue that things are going to improve outside of the EU because it will free up the UK to deal more freely with Honk Kong / China and capital coming from Asia in general.
There are a few fields where it's important to have a base in EU (eg. betting), but those companies already moved away from London to Malta and Cyprus.
The reason investments arrive in London is largely because of the English language and ease of movement between USA and the UK. Wealth is trickling from overseas.
You also have Ireland nearby to do dodgy tax deals, which comes in handy.
I don't see Europe becoming more relevant for tech startups; it seems like they're trying to force the hand by making a sort of nationalised tech scene but I doubt they'll be as efficient as the market.
The other nice place in Europe (but outside of the EU) for tech / banking is Zurich, in Switzerland.
I lived in London for 15 years. It was great. I house-shared for most of that and it's a great way to meet people if you're new to the city and don't know anyone. Others had pretty bad experiences though.
London is also quite cycle friendly so you don't technically have to get public transport all the time, which is great especially when it gets hot in summer.
I've never understood why people pay so much money to live in studio flats in crap areas of a city. We live out in Kent and including a drive to the train station and buying the ticket can be in central London in 40 minutes. That gets us an £1100 mortgage payment on a 4 bed house surrounded by farmland. Sometimes when we meet friends who live in London for dinner it takes them longer to get to the restaurant than it does us.
Visiting London is a blast, living and working there is a grind. I was deeply unhappy after three years (from 2016) but I really enjoy going back to visit socially. I was earning pretty decently and living in Zone 2 between Holloway Road (Piccadilly) and Highbury & Islington (Overground) stations.
Once the novelty wore off and I'd got into the work day commute all I noticed was how filthy and over-crowded it is, and how nothing works. Too hot, too cold, too much snow or too much rain and trains don't run which causes a massive backlog of people and delays. It takes 40 min to get anywhere and there are frequently obstacles during your journeys (signal failures etc). You live in the same town but never see some of your friends because it is such a saga to get there and back. I worked in Leicester Square and could not get proper mobile signal there most of the time. Moving apartments is super stressful and estate agents gouge you every step of the way. Doing any sort of admin in that town is an absolute nightmare.
The restaurants are some of the best in the world but most of the time you need to book at least two weeks in advance, so there is almost zero chance of spontaneity. While restaurants are a bit pricey it's a 50% chance of being mediocre or the best meal of your life. Not to mention every time you sit down you are reminded that your two hour time limit on the table has started. Any exciting band or festival has tickets that sell out in seconds.
I also felt that interactions with people could often be a fine line between sarcasm and being patronising. A lot of my friends raved about London 10 years ago (and I believe them) but most have now left or are wanting to.
It's a shame though, London seems like it can be a great city but is being crushed under the weight of all the people and honestly the quality of life I experienced there was just not that good. It really feels like too many people have moved there and it's become a bit of a tragedy of commons situation.
Sorry to be a downer but I really feel that London gets a lot of hype and from my experience doesn't seem justified in its current state. So just wanted to share some of my experiences.
One thing I will say is if you are happy to walk an hour, London is fantastic. Most people don’t want that on their daily commute.
London is in a weird political situation too - the national government is conservative but the mayor is labour. So it’s politically expedient for national government to fuck up London for political points - especially transport budgets.
Okay London is awesome, and good for this guy for moving there.
WOW though, "Above £60,000" salary. Despite the exchange rate, £1 pretty much buys you the same goods as $1 in the US (£5 coffee anyone?).
For such a high cost city, this pay sounds atrocious. You could live in SF and make literally triple that easily.
Plus the taxes are super high in London too.
I don't really buy the idea that having the NHS makes this all worth it either. Working in California you can get an employer health plan (Kaiser, etc) for $50 a month pre-tax that is in fact better in quality (no wait times, no need to get referrals to see any kind of doctor you want) than the NHS and never have to pay more than a $20 copay for any service.
It sounds like a super fun life experience, money isn't everything, I would absolutely love to do this but I don't know how I could ever justify cutting my pay from 350k -> 115k AND paying super high tax just to live in a specific city.
As an engineer in the UK this is probably true. I’m currently in finance which to some extent defies gravity, but in general it’s true that a good Software engineer salary in London is 50-100k pounds. FANG probably 100-150. And your effective rate of tax will be 30%ish and a decent place to live will be 2-3k. It’s definitely better being in the US for software.
You could argue this is why companies in the UK are recruiting from lower cost countries - because they don’t compete with higher cost countries in terms of compensation.
If someone gets 60k in London, it's probably they have not even tried to negotiate. However even if you get 100k, then good chunk of that is eaten by taxes.
Only way to get reasonable money was b2b, but recent changes to IR35 made it difficult. If you get caught by the rules you may pay over 50% of tax.
UK for IT is over.
The NHS indeed is underwhelming. I have to use private doctors because in my case NHS was useless.
I have been working in London as a developer for 7 years and, to me, it’s the best city in Europe to be in tech.
Maybe I could be making 3 times more in SF but I wouldn’t be in Europe, close to my friends and family.
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[ 4.1 ms ] story [ 183 ms ] threadCombined with the hassle for EU citizen nowadays to get a work permit it does not sound so enticing anymore.
Though for FAANG London still seems to have a better ratio of salary to CoL than Dublin.
No real 1st class seating (you'd never know other than its clearly marked) and no damn plugs unless you're on the one High speed line.
If you pick the right place (look at the cycleways map), you can usually find somewhere with a mostly off-road cycle route from home to your office.
All that combined means it's much easier / more enjoyable to do some work / read a book on your commute if you're using the bus, which for me was worth the extra journey time.
Obviously for longer journeys you still need the tube/train, but I lived fairly centrally so was able to either bus or bike 90% of the time.
It's much easier to get a remote gig, so it seems like a location will no longer be a problem.
Like Romania, it has an almost impenetrable firewall of negative PR that isn't born out by the experience of living there. Yes, there's an ugly old ICI factory that covers several square miles (the emblem of the region). But everything beyond that is gorgeous, green and largely untrammeled. I shall never forget walking through waterfall-strewn valleys and splendid forests and meeting hardly anyone else except some friendly dog-walkers.
Plymouth was decent enough, but I was only there as an industrial placement student, so I’m not sure about non-student prices.
Aberystwyth is pretty, but tiny, ~4 hours from anywhere that isn’t rural Wales regardless of your mode of transport, and literally 30% of the population are students. I didn’t stay long after graduation precisely because of the lack of tech jobs.
Portsmouth area is terrible for the tech scene — I grew up close to there, my siblings still live nearby, but when one of them was job hunting they ended up getting one just outside Farnborough with a one hour commute.
Sheffield is cheap, but I was trying to be a self-employed game dev when I was there, so I can’t say anything about the tech scene.
If you still care about location for everything except work, there’s lots of pretty countryside on the South Downs, Norfolk, Aberystwyth area, and west of Sheffield. St. Ives (the one near Cambridge) is probably one of the best combinations of cheap and pretty (just be aware of the flood zones).
What kid of property can you buy if you are a good software dev working at FAANG?
Housing is expensive in rough proportion to how central you are, and especially how close to tube stations you are. But it's also possible to live quite well. My commute would be a little over 1 hour each way by public transport, but I generally used a motorbike, closer to 35 minutes.
We are however leaving, in large part due to Brexit. I'm Irish, my partner is German, and neither of us wants our son to be schooled in this country. The political situation is heading in an Orban-like direction, they're locking up EU citizens at the border and the anti-EU rhetoric from leadership and tabloids is relentless.
I would not come here as an EU citizen.
I quit my job and joined Google in part because they'll relocate me to Zurich.
500k is what I want to spend for housing as well and it would merely buy a sad flat in London.
The cost of housing, the weather, the incoming tax hikes, progressive teachers and teenagers with knives are the reason I'm relocating somewhere else (Brexit didn't change much).
That said, for buying a house, I'm personally looking to one of the commuter towns. Somewhere like Woking, Basildon, Cheshunt... Maybe even out near Gatwick somewhere. I grew up next to an airport so I actually find the sound nice.
The biggest material impact of Brexit for me right now is the much greater difficulty in importing stuff, wine especially. But when we get back to international travel, the border will make more difference. Goods to declare, for one thing.
The only immigration system I am aware of that's more hostile is US. Obviously there are many countries I know nothing about
More important however might be the interaction with locals. And from what I witnessed, Americans (well, Californians at least) are much more welcoming than Germans.
Or working for a bank, which is the classic high-paid London job. The pure software engineers get paid less than quants/traders (which can get astronomical comp depending on what exactly they do) but usually still very substantial.
There are plenty of well paying tech jobs outside of FAANG, but many of them are in finance.
I'm hoping to buy a house soon which will be more of a challenge.
The way the "comment from the editor" is written ("Unfortunately, in England, higher salaries will mean higher tax rates." and "England's tax brackets can be slightly confusing") make it sound like this is not commonly how it works in other counties.
Could anyone tell me about how this differs from where you are?
If I explain to the same people that I use a spreadsheet for all my daily transactions I am looked at like I’m some kind of weirdo.
Of course, there are always edge cases, and the government has deliberately made some areas a mess (case in point: contractors); but the base use case of standard salary is insanely simple. And, for our American friends, the NHS is included.
[0] https://listentotaxman.com/
The total number of countries (50) only matters if you're using relative terms, like "most".
In the middle of the desert outside of a population center, one might call a group of 6 people "many", but one would never use the same term to refer to 6 grains of sand.
50 countries is stretching it, isn't it? TBH I meant EU (27), but I don't even know what are all the 23 other?
The most commonly used salary calculator [0] does a good job of taking all of that into account, so you can clearly see all three actual figures.
[0] https://www.moj-posao.net/Salary-Calculator/
For some reason this isn’t common practice. I’ve always found it weird that salaries are quoted in gross amount.
In some cases the round number may not be the “net” amount because eg maybe you have some rental income, or income from last year, moved to a new state, etc. But in most cases it’ll be pretty close.
Also if you pass a certain income threshold you're required to fill in your own tax return anyway.
That is correct. However, HMRC sends you a letter with every tax code change, which is calculated and posted automatically; I've once received two separate letters, with two different tax codes, sent literally one day apart from each other. :D
And if you feel that you tax code is incorrect it is very easy to check your online HNRC account and correct any information they might have.
"Unfortunately, in England, higher salaries will mean higher tax rates. Data released late in 2020 showed that Londoners contribute to nearly 30% of the country's capital gains tax"
??? Either the author mistakenly wrote capital gains instead of income, or they were just citing something completely irrelevant to the discussion.
Regarding the "confusing progressive tax rates", I agree with you. "Most systems around the world contain progressive aspects." [0] And a look at "tax rates around the world" shows most countries have higher marginal tax rates for higher incomes [1]
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_tax#Examples [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_rates
0-£12,570 (0%) £12,571-£50,270 (20%) £50,271-£99,999 (40%) £100,000-£125,140 (60%) £125,141-£150,000 (40%) £150,001+ (45%)
The 60% arrises because your personal allowance is reduced by £1 for every £2 you earn over £100,000 until is disappears entirely.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_the_United_Kingdom...
And here's a chart to go along with it to show where people fit along the X axis:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_in_the_United_Kingdom#/...
And even that isn't quite the whole story, because you'll also lose certain child-related benefits starting from £50K if you have kids, so your effective rate for the next £10K or so can work out much higher than 40%.
Then there are the effects of not-unusual things like pension contributions and charitable donations, which can move things around a bit more.
It's hardly a surprise that people find the system confusing!
Most people never interact with capital gains tax in their lives.
This used to be an easy way to minimise tax, although now it's a more complex calculation. And HMRC have to be persuaded that you really are freelance, and not just a long-term contractor working on-site.
There other semi-legal dodges including companies which loan you your income - minimal tax - and then for various more or less credible reasons the loan is written off and never has to be repaid. HMRC usually take a while to catch to these kinds of schemes. But short term gain can lead to long-term pain because if they're ruled unlawful HMRC can claw back tax retrospectively.
I moved out of the UK a few years ago, and while there's a lot to dislike - which is why I moved - the tax laws are fairly generous to one-person small businesses. Brexit has now massively complicated this for anyone selling internationally, but UK B2B is not so bad.
Also, as someone who has moved country twice (six years in Italy was the first time), I should note that this article doesn't deal with what I can only describe as general UK culture and the British character.
I would strongly advise anyone heading Britside to do what I did with Bucharest and have as long an 'exploratory' trip as you can to get a feel of the place: the way people look you in the eye (or don't); whether you sense hostility; and just the general social atmosphere. You can assess this kind of thing in a couple of weeks, usually, at least at a broad level.
As someone who gladly left, I'm obviously not the person to ask about whether you'd like living there. But it would be a good idea to stay with friends there, if possible, and scout that aspect out for yourself.
I don't really think that's a fair characterization of the mindset of the average Romanian woman, tbh, but rather seems 'drawn from the headlines'. Nor do I think the OP you're replying to meant that.
Maybe the grass is always greener on the other side, but I enjoy the quietness and helpfulness of the average Brit.
The only big negatives of UK culture for me are the general bad quality of produce outside of farmer's markets and the weird attachment everyone has to sash windows.
While I moved to UK, part of my family moved to Switzerland (the French part of it), and their experience with Swiss people hasn't been as rosy as mine with Brits.
YMMV.
In my experience the food here can be really good. Food and choice in the supermarkets can be bad, and typical foods of those in poverty (including those who were raised under the spectre of rationing here) aren't good, but proper, traditional British food has a lot of variety and interest, in both produce and dishes.
I had a few good meals in the UK. In london near soho there’s a little pie shop. Mums pies or something. That was good. And a couple of other places. But majority of the food IMO is terrible and expensive.
Edit: oh and I like food in Asia. Taiwanese, Thai, Malaysian. And a good burger.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Michelin_3-star_restau...
I say that as an Italian expat in Manchester (where things are... not that good).
I lived there previously and now I'm in New York. Food options in London are on par with NYC, and generally cheaper.
Not to mention, there are numerous instances of people getting harassed on the train platform, or inside the train car, and no one steps up to help. They film the incident, but they don't intervene.
Does this happen in the Tube, the MTA, or both? I unfortunately could see it happening in both depending on the time of day/night.
We did a winter in Nicaragua with the intention of scoping out the possibility of buying a house. It looks pretty good on paper, until you meet the grumpy expat American surfers who will be your pool of future friends and see the soulless dusty plots of building land with all the locals cleared out except one guy with a shotgun whose job is to sit the same plastic chair all day every day... yeah. Pass.
Naturally this is written from the perspective of a US expat developer with the entire world to chose from, so it’s a bit of a different situation to the one discussed in the article.
Why would you move to another country and not make friends with the (native) locals?
The locals also probably already have their own friend circles (or tribes or whatever you want to call it), and it might take a lot of effort to break in, especially if there is a group of expats that are easier to communicate with.
Puerto Rico, on the other hand does have towns full of Puerto Ricans all along the coast, so it’s possible to meet one of them who is not in the process of serving you a beer. That’s one of many reasons it ranks higher on my list of possible places to set up shop.
But there are also great advantages: it's easy to find work here, it's a walkable place where there is no need to own a car (or even know how to drive), although many complain the weather is in fact very mild and it's very achievable for someone on a software engineer salary to raise a family close(ish) to the centre. Of course there's plenty of "cultural" whatnot too. I love it here and wouldn't move anywhere else.
If you are thinking about moving here, I'm happy to answer any "dumb" questions you have over email (see my profile).
I have a nice job at my country at 2250 euros / month (which is twice the average salary) and I was asked to work for some company where I would get around 3000 euros/month.
And now it gets interesting. On interview, they will ask me various questions about my work that should theoretically be memorized by anyone comming from the school education. I have 25 years of development behind me and I dont have the "stack" to remember everything. And I am already decided to give them "fuck off" once they start with the theory.
On other side, I have a child from previous marriage and I will not leave the country for the sake of the team. Child development is more important to me.
So, I am over-competent engineer, bullied by idiotic recruiting, fixed in the position that I have, unable to relocate due to life circumstances. And now "moving to London" is a thing. Yeah right.
I don't mean to extrapolate from Internet-rant to presumed-reality, but this is a common pattern, so maybe it's worth mentioning:
I can teach a person Prolog. Any reasonable developer can teach themselves Prolog.
I cannot teach a person, nor have I ever witnessed a person self-educate on a short (employer-relevant) timescale, the willingness and propensity to work cooperatively and constructively, if it is not in their nature at interview-time.
Sometimes the latter is much more important than the former.
Negativity is infectious, and people naturally steer clear.
But this problem arguably exists in every Western city at the moment. I have my own pet policy ideas which I won't raise here. I will say that this problem seems to be markedly worse elsewhere, for example in American cities, Australia, Canada and also even on (western half of) the continent.
EDIT: Also pollution levels
Don't get me wrong - immigration should be encouraged and I think it should be easier for people from various backgrounds to come and contribute.
What isn't right, is that companies register huge profits (and often transfer them to tax havens) and don't share them with employees, while at the same time complaining they cannot find developers. Just pay more and you'll find plenty!
This is going to be even more relevant in a post covid world, after companies realise outsourcing can be viable.
Tons of relatively unknown companies making 100mln per year, paying 100k for seniors (usually stock comp is worthless though, that's how fang engineers make their money).
Personally I've always avoided fangs because of politics and having to commute in the office (which also means I could move outside of London).
It's not USA salaries but you get cheaper healthcare, more holidays, you can make some decent living and the extra freedom is welcome if you have a family or if you want to have a rich social life.
Is this still just as valid after Brexit?
I would argue that things are going to improve outside of the EU because it will free up the UK to deal more freely with Honk Kong / China and capital coming from Asia in general.
There are a few fields where it's important to have a base in EU (eg. betting), but those companies already moved away from London to Malta and Cyprus.
The reason investments arrive in London is largely because of the English language and ease of movement between USA and the UK. Wealth is trickling from overseas.
You also have Ireland nearby to do dodgy tax deals, which comes in handy.
I don't see Europe becoming more relevant for tech startups; it seems like they're trying to force the hand by making a sort of nationalised tech scene but I doubt they'll be as efficient as the market.
The other nice place in Europe (but outside of the EU) for tech / banking is Zurich, in Switzerland.
London is also quite cycle friendly so you don't technically have to get public transport all the time, which is great especially when it gets hot in summer.
The rest of the article seems quite on point, but that rent, I just can't quite put my finger on it.
There is no way you're getting a 2 bedroom for anywhere near that. It's not even in the right ballpark.
What you could afford for £1300 is a 1 bedroom, at a fair distance from central, thanks to the sharp drop in rent from coronavirus last year.
I'm certainly curious to know what he is renting. Either he's not living in London or I missed a second wave of rent drop from coronavirus.
Once the novelty wore off and I'd got into the work day commute all I noticed was how filthy and over-crowded it is, and how nothing works. Too hot, too cold, too much snow or too much rain and trains don't run which causes a massive backlog of people and delays. It takes 40 min to get anywhere and there are frequently obstacles during your journeys (signal failures etc). You live in the same town but never see some of your friends because it is such a saga to get there and back. I worked in Leicester Square and could not get proper mobile signal there most of the time. Moving apartments is super stressful and estate agents gouge you every step of the way. Doing any sort of admin in that town is an absolute nightmare.
The restaurants are some of the best in the world but most of the time you need to book at least two weeks in advance, so there is almost zero chance of spontaneity. While restaurants are a bit pricey it's a 50% chance of being mediocre or the best meal of your life. Not to mention every time you sit down you are reminded that your two hour time limit on the table has started. Any exciting band or festival has tickets that sell out in seconds.
I also felt that interactions with people could often be a fine line between sarcasm and being patronising. A lot of my friends raved about London 10 years ago (and I believe them) but most have now left or are wanting to.
It's a shame though, London seems like it can be a great city but is being crushed under the weight of all the people and honestly the quality of life I experienced there was just not that good. It really feels like too many people have moved there and it's become a bit of a tragedy of commons situation.
Sorry to be a downer but I really feel that London gets a lot of hype and from my experience doesn't seem justified in its current state. So just wanted to share some of my experiences.
London is in a weird political situation too - the national government is conservative but the mayor is labour. So it’s politically expedient for national government to fuck up London for political points - especially transport budgets.
1. How old is too old? (E.g. "Don't bother migrating if you're 30+, you're too old for the job.")
2. How "recognized" is your experience and your previous role (e.g. can a Senior IT Manager in Myanmar be a Senior IT Manager in UK?)
3. How's the salary adjustment going to be? "Current salary +30%" won't cut it as the living costs will be very different.
WOW though, "Above £60,000" salary. Despite the exchange rate, £1 pretty much buys you the same goods as $1 in the US (£5 coffee anyone?).
For such a high cost city, this pay sounds atrocious. You could live in SF and make literally triple that easily. Plus the taxes are super high in London too.
I don't really buy the idea that having the NHS makes this all worth it either. Working in California you can get an employer health plan (Kaiser, etc) for $50 a month pre-tax that is in fact better in quality (no wait times, no need to get referrals to see any kind of doctor you want) than the NHS and never have to pay more than a $20 copay for any service.
It sounds like a super fun life experience, money isn't everything, I would absolutely love to do this but I don't know how I could ever justify cutting my pay from 350k -> 115k AND paying super high tax just to live in a specific city.
You could argue this is why companies in the UK are recruiting from lower cost countries - because they don’t compete with higher cost countries in terms of compensation.
In fact the amount of English Londoners fleeing London is insane. Its not just prices but crime and diversity.