This is so painful to read, Venezuela sounds like a failed state, it can’t even provide running water to its people in Ordaz. The daily human toll must be ghastly.
How does a country ever get back on a positive trajectory after such a catastrophe?
Cambodia went through the same hell and worse and only started the path back after Vietnam invaded it and ousted the Khmer Rouge. It might take an outside intervention to end the charade of the Venezuelan government.
Outside invasion - either by force or soft force (economic) are usually the quickest ways. Otherwise you need the rulers to decide to reform or the revolution to actually install a government that doesn’t just mimic the preceding.
I don't have the numbers, but I suspect the brain-drain is near total, and irreversible for a few generations. The last time I did a round of interviews, about two years ago with half a dozen companies in Chile, at least half of the senior engineers, and many of the hiring managers, were Venezuelan. None of my Venezuelan friends plan on going back, although they do visit, and I think would like to go back if conditions were different- Venezuelan culture is quite a bit more "latin" than Chile, so there's a fair bit of culture shock for them. As it is, they are putting down roots, starting families, opening up businesses, etc, and I don't think they'll be leaving soon, if ever.
Not only that, it will most likely change the political map for the next 20 years in those countries, at least at the community level. If most of the refugees get voting rights (at least in Spain or Colombia where most can get the nationality through ancestry), they will NOT vote for any left leaning party that helps or validates the regime
The brain drain is real, at least in the case of the petroleum engineers. Most of them left years ago to work for Petrobras or Pemex. I have heard mexican engineers complain about venezuelans coming in and undercutting the labor market. This was 10+ years ago, after Chavez fired 80% of the engineers.
Remember when everyone in Venezuela was starving and all the American Leftists were trying to defend Maduro and calling one a fascist on Twitter for criticizing Maduro’s regime?
I've probably seen half a dozen "debates" in the last year in which American Leftists were arguing with actual Venezuelans about whether the situation in Venezuela was real or Western Propaganda (TM).
And of course if you ask them for the source of their ridiculous claims they'll either link propaganda sites like Telesur or RT, or go off in rambling about how the CIA did something like that in the 60's forgetting to source anything
I really hate grouping everyone like this. I consider myself left but you were arguing with a moron. I was under the impression in liberal democracy, even up until maybe 2015 treating an individual as an example of all individuals from that group was considered reprehensible for obvious reasons, i.e. you will end up saying racist or sexist things. The more general rule, to treat everyone on the content of their individual character, is an important one in my upbringing and I would like a return to these values. Currently everyone is being forced, on left or right, to have it assumed that they occupy absurd extremist positions. I do admit these people are on the rise, but I’m not sure inflating their importance (they are seeking attention in a lot of cases) is helping.
I'm inclined to agree, but increasingly these "morons" are more numerous and more likely to occupy positions of power and authority.
> I was under the impression in liberal democracy even up until maybe 2015 treating an individual as an example of all individuals from that group was considered reprehensible for obvious reasons, i.e. you will end up saying racist or sexist things.
Yeah, me too.
> The more general rule I would like back because everyone is being forced on left or right have it assumed that they occupy absurd positions.
I'm having a hard time parsing this sentence, could you rephrase/clarify?
For what it’s worth we have the same amount of morons just the Internet has given them means to organise and communicate and people like Steve Bannon to weave in a bit of ethnic-nationalism into the minds of the public.
> For what it’s worth we have the same amount of morons just the Internet has given them means to organise and communicate
That seems concerning enough on its own, but that property ("means to organize and communicate") has knock-on effects: those morons become even more extreme and they come to occupy positions of power and authority in even greater numbers.
Once upon a time you had millions of village idiots whose views were moderated by their community and the talking heads on TV, and they were typically blue-collar, uneducated, and had no real power or authority. Now because of the ability to communicate with each other, they develop echo chambers that radicalize their viewpoints. On top of that, they organize, such that the administer universities, overwhelm newsrooms, and lead DEI departments in every major company in the country.
How did you systematically come to the conclusion that those "debates" shouldn't be had? Which straw broke the camel's back? Is it because Carlos on the internet , who writes for The New York Times, The Washington Post, and Americas Quarterly, told you so? How do we take your guidelines and judgement and form it into a framework of rational thought where it then becomes generally applicable to the general population if your guidance wasn't available one day?
I guess I find the Venezuelan’s experience to be more credible than the baseless beliefs of an American undergrad Tweeting from Starbucks on the new iPhone his parents bought him.
No need to remember, I can assure you that if this post were to gain popularity a bunch of wanna be Marxist and spoiled first world socialists will come here and try to gaslight everyone into thinking Venezuela is a paradise or that it's all the US fault when they have never set foot outside Europe or the US
For those interested in industrial collapse in Venezuela, check out this great recap of what happened with their oil industry: https://youtu.be/0mvjp0ZqK7Q
I think that's a good takeaway. But he does mention that once he's in Columbia, he is able to convert some of his crypto into cash. So maybe storing more of his cash into crypto would have helped? But then again, he did need cash for bribes...
The amount of cash he needed to keep on hand didn't seem unreasonable. But keeping any less and he might have to walk the rest of the way. Crypto still has a long way to go to being the great, ubiquitous equalizer it was designed to be.
My goodness, he better not convert Bitcoin to cash there. Colombia is by no means much safer than Venezuela, ever and in particular since about 2 months.
Few people remember that not too long ago Colombians were seeking refuge in Venezuela.
He should use an online exchange if he can provide KYC. Something like in person exchange in Colombia is playing Russian/Colombian roulette.
Maybe he has family he can trust with, but yeah. In Colombia, wrong street and someone will rob you at gunpoint for a phone, even if there is not Bitcoin on it.
Very good read. I have a soft-spot for Venezuela and it's collapse. Its fascinating watching a country make the same mistakes as dozens of countries before them have. History repeats and repeats, even though we have trivial access to it today through the internet.
I always find it odd when people speak of Venezuela never seem to talk about the failures of Socialism. They seem to blame the failures on violence or authoritarian regimes. But how are you supposed to "seize the means of production" without authoritarianism? The author of this article mentions Marxism:
> The Venezuelan government calls itself Marxist, too, but also seems to spend more time dreaming up ways to make a buck than on anything like a revolution.
I would love to hear more of their opinions on Marxism. But this article seemed more about a journey than why the journey was necessary.
Socialism does not need to sieze the means of production, marxism does. Socialism also covers a big range different ideologies. For example social democrat parties are considered to be socialist parties:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy
The scandinavian countries are by global standards quite socialist, with social democratic and socialist parties often in power, most of those have no interest in seizing the means of production.
Wow, I'm surprised that cryptocurrency actually helped him. I can see he cannot make a bank account since he is an illegal alien, but he could still hold and transfer value with the power of the blockchain. Smart move, since he pretty much got robbed of any valuable he had with him. One of the few positive crypto-related news I have heard lately!
Cryptocurrencies are an innovation. With all the problems and areas that need improvement, there is undoubtedly some key technology progress here that we're never going back from.
Personally, I think what we're seeing is akin to the first internal combustion engine. It was dirty, low power, fuel hungry, extremely noisy, inefficient, and vibrated so hard no one ever thought you'd be able to attach anything to it. ...and it also made zero people money.
...but eventually it revolutionized transportation.
36 comments
[ 2.7 ms ] story [ 84.2 ms ] threadHow does a country ever get back on a positive trajectory after such a catastrophe?
I'm inclined to agree, but increasingly these "morons" are more numerous and more likely to occupy positions of power and authority.
> I was under the impression in liberal democracy even up until maybe 2015 treating an individual as an example of all individuals from that group was considered reprehensible for obvious reasons, i.e. you will end up saying racist or sexist things.
Yeah, me too.
> The more general rule I would like back because everyone is being forced on left or right have it assumed that they occupy absurd positions.
I'm having a hard time parsing this sentence, could you rephrase/clarify?
For what it’s worth we have the same amount of morons just the Internet has given them means to organise and communicate and people like Steve Bannon to weave in a bit of ethnic-nationalism into the minds of the public.
That seems concerning enough on its own, but that property ("means to organize and communicate") has knock-on effects: those morons become even more extreme and they come to occupy positions of power and authority in even greater numbers.
Once upon a time you had millions of village idiots whose views were moderated by their community and the talking heads on TV, and they were typically blue-collar, uneducated, and had no real power or authority. Now because of the ability to communicate with each other, they develop echo chambers that radicalize their viewpoints. On top of that, they organize, such that the administer universities, overwhelm newsrooms, and lead DEI departments in every major company in the country.
I used to come here for tech discussions and maybe some startup insight.
Now every day there's a post that devolves into qanon, trumpists, leftists bickering.
I guess every site goes to the dogs eventually.
Also check out this video on hyperinflation in Venezuela: https://youtu.be/ah9i3R9pRpg
Finally, it's worth seeing how things look on the ground. For example, check out this bit on the subway: https://youtu.be/jN5LZR4ejkg?t=20m
Also the power outages mentioned - they should prove that crypto won't help...
My goodness, he better not convert Bitcoin to cash there. Colombia is by no means much safer than Venezuela, ever and in particular since about 2 months.
Few people remember that not too long ago Colombians were seeking refuge in Venezuela.
He should use an online exchange if he can provide KYC. Something like in person exchange in Colombia is playing Russian/Colombian roulette.
Maybe he has family he can trust with, but yeah. In Colombia, wrong street and someone will rob you at gunpoint for a phone, even if there is not Bitcoin on it.
I always find it odd when people speak of Venezuela never seem to talk about the failures of Socialism. They seem to blame the failures on violence or authoritarian regimes. But how are you supposed to "seize the means of production" without authoritarianism? The author of this article mentions Marxism:
> The Venezuelan government calls itself Marxist, too, but also seems to spend more time dreaming up ways to make a buck than on anything like a revolution.
I would love to hear more of their opinions on Marxism. But this article seemed more about a journey than why the journey was necessary.
The scandinavian countries are by global standards quite socialist, with social democratic and socialist parties often in power, most of those have no interest in seizing the means of production.
Personally, I think what we're seeing is akin to the first internal combustion engine. It was dirty, low power, fuel hungry, extremely noisy, inefficient, and vibrated so hard no one ever thought you'd be able to attach anything to it. ...and it also made zero people money.
...but eventually it revolutionized transportation.
Yeah, right. And the glorious state named US is leading the contest.
If political bulshit is not allowed on HN why is such a story with such comments not dead ?