I wish the article had some info on the potential cause. I could only speculate.
Anecdote, I'm 40, and I notice my younger male friends actually seem to have closer male friendships than I and my same age peers would have had, specifically more open about feelings, affection, basically things you'd be less likely to find and older generation man expressing. I wonder if it's like so many other disparities we see, where there are more very close friendships, more loners, and fewer people in the middle ground.
The results in this report basically jives with my lived experience.
I often think I should move to a city where some of my close school friends live. We are all techies and should really all work together but haven’t done so yet.
I currently live in my wife’s hometown and there are a lot of folks who were born and raised here so the social fabric is strong. That being said I haven’t made any friends here. Oddly my wife made all new friends and while still has childhood friends here doesn’t really see them.
That being said I’ve made friends at various jobs and I correlate a happy job and workplace success with the ability to make a friend at work.
The only other thing I do is golf and I get some socialization there.
We will probably see things change post pandemic though.
Proximity is the king. It really kills the vibe if to hang out you need to plan days in advance because of 20+ minute drive each way. And then just popping up is no longer a thing.
I find I am so overwhelmed by getting by at work and by taking care of all the assorted tasks I need to in order to keep functioning that I have literally no energy left to socialize or find people
to hang out with. Has the world gotten more chaotic and require more
of us to stay afloat or is it just me?
Don’t know how old you are, but I’m in my late 20s.
My social circle grew a lot bigger when I first moved out, tho I lost touch with many high school “friends”. I moved places again in my early 20s and then it kept shrinking - more adult responsibilities, less friends.
I recently moved countries and my circle now consists of a handful of people I’ve been friends with 10-15+ Years, funnily most of these I’ve met online. We’re all part of the same group mostly, everyone with their responsibilities; wives, jobs, etc.
That's a lot of presuppositions and stereotypes in two sentences.
It's possible that some of those factors matter (I'd think smaller families would increase availability for socialization) but, to provide anecdote, my circle of friends expanded after my breakup, which makes sense.
> my circle of friends expanded after my breakup, which makes sense.
This surprises me. Usually breakups cost friends, as some are associated more with the partner you're leaving.
> I'd think smaller families would increase availability for socialization
I dunno, there can be a lot of socialization within the extended family. It has a lot to do with culture though. In some there'll be a WhatsApp group full of cousins and aunties, plus three generations actually living together in a big compound, and all the socialization you could need (and then some). And if you travel you'll never need a hotel. Lots of cultures like this.
> That's a lot of presuppositions and stereotypes in two sentences.
In my (limited) experience many stereotypes are accurate.
> I'd think smaller families would increase availability for socialization
It really depends, but I don't know. Large families are correlated with certain activities, beliefs, etc which might be what help increase social interaction. I know a lot of parents who have big families and their kids basically introduce them to half a dozen families who they're friends with and it exponentially increases opportunity for socializing as the children age and dynamics change.
Unless you happen to be one of a very limited number of scientists studying such things, you have no idea how "most tribes" do anything.
Besides... "most tribes" bury their people in their late 40s on average. The belief that they have it all figured out is called the naturalistic fallacy.
> Just guessing: smaller and broken families, more time behind screens, less male-only and female-only spaces, more mobility.
For the first two: the US divorce rate was at its near peak around the time that the linked article's poll shows that male friendships were at their high mark[1]. The average US family size has also not changed significantly since 1990[2].
Put another way: there were more "broken" families in 1990, at a time when the poll says that more men had closer friendships, and the average family size hasn't swung in any direction that would suggest any relationship.
I don't know about dkdk8283, but people make assumptions about states and the people in them. I've run into plenty of people online who heard I was from the south and assumed I was some terrible racist. Moving states can align stereotypes with views and save some headaches, if you can afford it.
> I've run into plenty of people online who heard I was from the south and assumed I was some terrible racist
Heh, I’ve got some interesting comments about this before. I was once told by someone that they were surprised I listened to rap because I’m from the south and this wouldn’t like the race of the artists.
I was visiting family in a very rural part of Texas recently. No iron crosses or confederate flags, but plenty of Trump/Pence flags and signs still around. It's probably the best place to be unvaccinated actually. People out there are accustomed to keeping a respectful distance, aside from the occasional brief hug or handshake. They will not tolerate crowded conditions as in the city, because they don't have to. Even the Sunday church congregations are sparser than in days past. Consequently, the Covid threat out there has remained quite low.
Compare the "Seattle freeze" to "Minnesota nice" or "Southern hosoitality." There's a reason blue areas generally have reputations as being cliquey and hostile while red areas generally have reputations of friendliness and hospitality.
You're really grasping for straws to somehow tie politics into small towns and friendship, while also making assumptions about me. Yes, I saw the comment that you made and promptly deleted. Your red vs blue ranting is nonsensical. I live in Texas and have lived in a few small towns in WV for several years. I have a lot of friends all over the political spectrum, and hobbies that are stereotypically aligned with those demographics, so I spend a lot of time around all kinds of people. I'm not quite sure what you're rambling on about, but from this message and the one you deleted you sure have strong opinions about...something. You're afraid to use your main account, I don't know why I'm even bothering to respond.
i deleted the first comment because it was making assumptions about you. That an inability to understand what the original poster meant could only signify trolling demonstrated to me a lack of either imagination or good will. Given this is HN, I assumed the latter, but upon reflection decided that it didn't necessarily follow. Accordingly, I deleted the post.
I figured I should then at least have the candor to sign post what I perceived to be the original poster's intent since you and others seemed to have trouble with it. Given your hostile response to that response (naturally after having been attacked) I won't continue to try.
In all honesty, if you're that insulated from the current zeitgeist, consider yourself fortunate.
> since you and others seemed to have trouble with it. Given your hostile response to that response (naturally after having been attacked) I won't continue to try.
How is what I asked hostile? They commenter made a statement about small towns and politics equating friendship. I've lived in those areas and I still have no idea what they mean. You have very strong opinions in this area and keep on lobbing partial ideas out there (just like this) as if everyone should understand how you feel without explicitly stating why.
>In all honesty, if you're that insulated from the current zeitgeist, consider yourself fortunate.
You seem to be consuming more media than you are interacting with the folks they're stirring up propaganda about to get views. As I've previously mentioned I have hobbies that are stereotypically aligned with certain demographics, and from the countless hours I've spent at gun ranges, muscle car shows and shops, tech conventions and art fairs, 99% of people's beliefs are not at the extremes of the political spectrum. The vocal minority usually creates the divisive attention you seem to be speaking of. I saw your other comment in this thread about ditching your friends because they were "more trouble than it's worth". I'm not surprised you believe everyone is at each other's throats based on that comment. Most people are very reasonable.
I stand by my original statement: consider yourself fortunate. The problem isn't that I'm consuming propaganda; it's that the people around me are consuming propaganda, despite best efforts.
If you haven't seen compassionate and reasonable friends and family turn into paranoid, irrational, hate-filled conformists as they become Extremely Online, then in all sincerity, consider yourself fortunate.
> This is such a bizarre non-sequitur that I can only assume you're trolling.
It's a simple concept conservatives like conservative things like valuing long strong friendships. They in theory, value and do well a small number of things.
And it's a simple concept liberals like many flashy new things, they value the new and different.
It's a fair idea to do friendships well you move to a conservative place. To get lots of friends who come and go, you would go liberal.
Why is this trolling? Its a reasonable thesis. I don't think it's perfect, but it's interesting.
How could you be so deluded to believe that a desire to have good friends is based on your politics ? This is why people think conservatives are stupid, just because you use the word thesis doesn't mean that there's any value in what you're saying
I think it's the part where you defined "conservative" as the opposite of "modern insanity", thus implying that people who weren't conservative were insane. You made other people feel unwelcome, and that might be why you received unwelcoming responses in return.
I came to the realization a while back that I only have maybe…4 friends other than my wife.
When I moved and left for college I was married already and most of my friends were not. My wife and I weren’t big into the clubbing thing so old friends sort of fell away. We did both make some friends in college, some mutual and some exclusive. But there were social factors that made that difficult - mainly we were very, very poor and were often embarrassed to have people over or go out since we couldn’t afford to. A small handful of those friendships live on in my wife’s social media but I have no social media footprint.
After college we both worked and that’s where I picked up the friends I have today. Two (now former) coworkers and a former boss. We have an ongoing text chat and we’re pretty open about real stuff. As luck would have it, both my former boss and I moved to the same state for new jobs and live fairly close. So the four of us (we and our wives) hang out on occasion.
At my current job I’ve picked up one more friend with whom I talk regularly about non work things. But I’m unsure how long that friendship will last as we’re both seeking new jobs, she’s leaving in a week and I’ll (hopefully) be leaving shortly thereafter. Hopefully it’ll last, but who knows.
My wife is better at making friends than I am. She’s joined several local groups around her interests and is slowly building a new social circle. But for me I tend to work from maybe 4am to 7pm and often during the weekend. So by the time I shut everything off at night I’m just so exhausted that I don’t have much more energy to do anything.
> I came to the realization a while back that I only have maybe…4 friends other than my wife.
This is overwhelmingly true about everyone, having a single digit count of close friends. People that pretend to have dozens of close friends, are liars, whether consciously or subconsciously (specifically they're maintaining a facade to draw social points from, narcissistically). It's not feasible to successfully maintain so many high level relationships, even if it's all a person does all day.
A typical social butterfly might have a few dozen active social connections that they keep alive by occasionally touching base, which is very different from having that many good friends.
I don’t really socialize that often. And I sleep sporadically. I do eat well enough. I try to eat lots of vegetables and drink lots of water. Salads are my go to.
The biggest reason I work so much is that the team I’m on is very small and I’m the “sr architect” which sounds considerably fancier than it is. In reality I’m the architect and the engineer and the prod support agent and the integration and business architect. Because my team is not considered essential we do not have budget to hire more FTEs but because our “internal clients” ARE considered essential we are basically at their mercy. And I see other teams in the company get descoped every month. So I’ve been trying to keep the workload handled so that my team doesn’t all get fired. But I can’t do it anymore which is why I’m trying to leave. Had 6 rounds of interviews with our biggest competitor over the past two weeks and I think they all went well. So hopefully in a couple of days I’ll be able to slap down my two weeks, burn my never used PTO, and hope for better days in a new org.
I'm lucky that I have a lot of friends through D&D and other in-person group gaming.
As a happily married gay man, however, I find that a lot of straight men still get the wrong idea when I, e.g., invite them for a drink after work, even when it's as part of a group with other people. It's happened a few times now and I'm seriously perturbed! What other signals do I need to be throwing to tell people I just want to be friends?
First, that does seem a bit funny to me, especially if you're married. It (being hit on) certainly would not be the first thing I suspected if a gay friend asked me to go have a drink. On the other hand, there have definitely been situations where I would have liked to ask a woman to go have a platonic drink, and didn't because of a concern she would get the wrong idea (I'm married too).
I haven't lost any friends, but I've trimmed down friendships with non-libertarian men and women I knew, and I don't regret it. There's no point in having such friends.
I still maintain friendships with libertarian friends, some of them I haven't seen for many years. I don't have fewer close friends than I'd like.
I stopped keeping in contact with my friends when I realized that it was more trouble than it was worth. I grew up. They didn't. I'd rather spend time nurturing my kids than talk about the latest infantilized product that they're consuming or their furrogate babies. Someone might ask "Maybe you need to find new friends," but why? I don't need to validate my identity or views. Most social hobbies are tedious timesinks. Other parents make shortsighted, contagious decisions concerning their kids behavior; Why should I even open that attack surface? It's all just so tiresome.
I'm there. Never in my life have I had a friend even close to "best man" material, in either direction. For whatever reason, I've never been able to maintain friendships for more than a couple of years. Something always goes wrong, or folks just lose interest. In my mid forties now, it seems obvious that this is due to personality flaws of my own.
as someone who struggled with this - my advice is pretty simple: "just say yes." Anytime anyone asks if you're interested in doing anything, just say yes. In my experience the problems sort of just resolved themselves. though this is much harder than it sounds. I used to be a huge flake because I'd always say no (for valid reasons, such as I just wasn't interested or wasn't really feeling the person that much), but saying yes and frequently being around someone (or a group) made some of the issues resolve themselves somehow.
Conversely, once you get past this my other advice would be "many to one" - hang out in groups frequently to massage things, and try to hang out with people by themselves as frequently as possible. as great as group hang outs are - it's just not the same as one-on-one. for one you're not as candid about things.
finally my last note would be: just because you see someone alot in a group does not mean you are friends. I cannot emphasize this enough. you must hang out with people in smaller groups, ideally one-on-one (this is not to say that people you hang out with in groups aren't your friends, tho).
Only goes so far. As a person who organizes things a lot and invites lots of people to things, you probably get three shots, max. One or two is more the norm.
I will add to this. Don't just say yes or wait for people to ask. Go out and do stuff. Literally anything. Get skills or hobbies that involve other people. I know guitar. What did I do? Went to open mic night at a bar I liked. I've made some friends there now. Know what else I do? Check out other live music. Explore different restaurants. Make attempts to hang out with people even though I know I'll probably be rejected.
How did I do it? I made every single faux pas in front of people. Made constant mistakes and errors to learn how to properly socialize myself. Guess what? It worked. It just took consistent effort and a resolve to get over the fact that I wouldn't always be an awkward person to every new person I met.
My experience living in a large Midwest Metro area is that I never see people outside certain activities. I used to play pickup soccer, these people would never join me in a programming meetup, or as a musician, non-musician friends are non-existent outside certain events. I attribute it to everybody living in different areas etc., but do tire at everything being so compartmentalized.
Anyway, I'm currently planning on moving to a different area, maybe a city not so large, I think removing some of the option anxiety and transportation sprawl might help.
I found the best thing I did for friendships is moving to the city. Normally I would not do things because it was way too much work to visit people or have them visit me. Now its as simple as them walking back to my apt with me after work and playing games/drinking where it doesn't cost a fortune to have fun like a pub would.
Our urban sprawl/car dependence is probably mostly responsible for the decline in friendships.
> Our urban sprawl/car dependence is probably mostly responsible for the decline in friendships.
Maybe. I think this has its own set of problems, but I struggle to see a link between car dependence and friendships. I think social media and online games have contributed more to the decline of interpersonal relationships than car culture has.
This is likely just as simple as "Men are more likely to move away from established friend groups to pursue careers and struggle to make new connects wherever they land"
That doesn't explain the trend since the 90s. If anything, fewer men are married to their careers than before.
I suspect it actually has to do with later marriages and declining fertility. As someone who doesn't really seek friendship, everyone I know socially is either through work or parents of my kids' friends.
Actively deciding to stop drinking kind of did this anyways. Friends are great, but they're also a huge time sync. Also, as you get older you realize that most people aren't really your friends like they were in high school or college. I had one person I thought was a "friend" turn on a dime and start spamming me with horrible text messages. This was a person I talked to every day and worked on a few cool side projects with, one day randomly accused me of all this insane political stuff... The whole experience was jolting, pretty sure I'm going to take a break from friends for a while.
Decided to actively solve for this problem in late 30s after attending funerals where the guy had to use some of the funeral home staff as palbearers, and I decided it was important to me to finish being able to convene a party of 6.
How? Joined a fraternal organization. It's the least fashionable or cool thing to do, and that's precisely what made it a good idea. It is a way to have something in common without a lot of baggage or overhead, and you get to see what other men are really like from every walk of life, at different stages of their lives. The organizations are what you make them, and bringing conditions and expectation goes as well as you expect.
I say men because a lot of young guys these days are uncomfortable saying out loud that they are a man. Instead they say they are a "person," "an adult," a "guy," or a "dude." Nobody needs a deep philosophical explanation of it, but being able to self accept enough to say you are a man is exceptional these days. You can certainly be all those things, but if someone asked you point blank whether you were a good man, for many it's an uncomfortably direct question. I think this is the root of what makes male friendships hard, we've all become too neurotic and anxious.
The org I joined doesn't have any answers to that (it's not unlike a theatre group), but just being around other guys and doing the work to keep the thing running gives you the tools to figure it out for yourself if that's your thing. I also think we've been given a bunch of substitute cognitively limiting tools to dodge the question, like saying we aren't bros or toxic masculine persons, or don't need to overcompensate because we're educated, etc. I think because many of us haven't been equipped with the tools to discern what it means to be a good one makes the whole thing intimidating.
Anyway, in mine, I hang out with a wildly diverse group (whole spectrum of religion, sexuality, ethnicity, age, etc), and in having almost nothing in common, the equillibrium we manage to find gives you an idea of a common thread that we can find. It helps everyone recognize there is a way to meet almost anyone on the level. It's not for everyone, and that bar makes the other side of it really special. Partners are fine with it because it's good clean fun and knowing 20+ guys who will return your txts is pretty cool.
I think the thing that turned me is I saw the quality of the criticisms on the internet of fraternal organizations and the list of who has historically been against them, and I figured if there was a team I could join, it would be the one those anti- people are against. The rules are that the organization can't recruit, so if you want to be the change, the opportunity is unlimited.
I'm guessing yes, because of the "meet almost anyone on the level" comment :)
I'm having the same issue as I'm in a similar age bracket and it's getting harder to make new connections. I've attended Rotary and Lion's club meetings as a guest (they're both community-service organizations) but haven't clicked with the crowd, some chapters seem to imply a prestigious career grants greater chance of membership which is not what I'm looking for.
Looking to hear comments on Masonry or other similar organizations.
I actually agree. I joined a fraternal organization as a young man on a whim.. It's great. The best part is moving to a new area I had an automatic "in".
Honestly, Covid-19 showed me there are 'friends' and there are friends. It changed my perspective of some of my friendships.
I had some 'friends' who I knew for 10+ years who couldn't spare a single minute over the past 1.5 years to go for a walk or have a coffee outside. As someone who was there for them at various points in life, all I could think of was "really, you know I live alone and don't have an SO like you do, did it seriously never cross your mind how lonely it's been for me?" Unless I made the umpteenth trip to visit him/her, they would make zero effort.
I also had friends including those who just had newborns who made the time every single week to jump on a zoom call just to say hi and to keep each others spirits up.
I probably won't let it destroy the friendships because what is 1.5 years compared to 10+, but at the same time, I'd be lying if I said it was easy to forget.
I had a similar experience to you. I'm trying to be forgiving however, because COVID brought a lot of depression, and people going through depression are inwardly focused and can struggle to maintain relationships. As their friend, I want to be there for them when they're able to focus on us again.
I’m in your exact same shoes and it hurts so damn bad. I honestly don’t trust the majority of the people I considered friends before the pandemic because of it. It became glaringly obvious what the future was going to be in those relationships. I still don’t know exactly what to do going forward now that there’s a new sense of normalcy in the US
I made a comment about my experience, I don’t think it’s possible to do that without making it about myself. What the op said resonated with me and I just wanted to let them know another man was feeling the same way and hoping that it would make the world a little less lonely. No bad vibes
People react differently during crisis time. Even if government fails to address issues, people will hunker down at home much more. So I'd cut people some slack and figure out what works for them.
And some people get so overzealous about “social distancing” to stop the spread of the virus that they forget why they’re doing it in the first place. You don’t have to “socially” distance yourself from everyone to stop the spread of the virus, Corona can’t be transmitted over video chat.
In person interactions are okay too. I hung out with lots of friends who frequently tested and limited their encounters to those who took the same precautions and none of us caught Corona.
How would one know? I avoided basically all optional gatherings of more than zero people from mid-March 2020 to late April 2021. I didn’t explain that to anyone; I just didn’t do it.
Indeed, that is what I did, and that is what I expected of others. No one really asked why, the answer was obvious, and when I asked them, they said they were quarantining in the same way.
Well, my experiences match the OP's and it was definitely not very related to pandemic considering that people was not even trying to use Zoom or chat.
And this includes people who had no job at the time so "I spend already 8 hours a day on video so please give me a break" were not a majority.
I find it hard to empathize with the idea that you had good friends and wouldn’t even send them an occasional “wish we could hang out; miss you” type message. I can understand why someone might think their true friends were revealed.
One of the culture gaps between USA and other countries is how easily USA conflate fair weather friends/acquaintances with real friendship. Weird from that perspective when someone acts like they want to be friends with everyone because if there is actual commitment then you literally can't be close friends with too many people, you wouldn't have enough time to regularly connect.
I must be the weird American who thinks the word "friend" still means something. Acquaintances and Facebook friends don't mean squat to me without aligned interests and/or repeatedly-observed indicators of character. And, I don't have time for unnecessary online "social"-climbing, people who waste my time, drag me down, or mooch.
- had you at a disadvantage but never exploited it
- someone who helps you move a couch and a desk
- lend a book to and always get it back
- lend a small amount of money to and always get it back
- leave something at their place and they tell you about it
- can count on them for a couch if you get locked-out
The closest of friends:
- you would kill for them and vice-versa
- you trust them implicitly with everything: secrets, material, and family
- you could be mistaken for family and/or your families blend together to where no one can really tell who-is-with-who
And speaking for myself, I got a lot of Zoom/Facetime fatigue and also was dreading having the same conversations over and over again about COVID and lockdown.
At the start of the pandemic I git in touch with a group of people ("friends") who were living all over Europe and set up a role playing campaign using Discord.
I did it for two reasons: I like RPGs, and to provide them with a chance to socialize and get some distraction from Covid, depression etc.
We talk if "normal stuff" (including the Pandemic) for 10-15 minutes top at the start, especially while waiting for everybody to get online, then we play for two hours straight. Voice only, no video. It's a Fantasy campaign so it's pure escapism. It sorta worked so far.
Yeah I had a similar experience and I knew a few people in the same boat, but funnily enough I forged stronger relationships with people that are more genuine, so at the end of the day I feel that I’m better off
What Covid showed me was that nearly all of my friends were people I had friendly working relationships with. A ton of my friends were from church where we served in different capacities together and enjoyed working together. And I had a lot of similar relationships at work. But with stay at home covid, I found that I didn't yearn to see these people still. I'm glad when we do stuff together, we enjoy doing so. But I don't miss them. And I found there was a small handful of people that were worth making the effort to actually go on socially distanced walks or whatever to still just hang out.
I am never going back to that super busy over programmed life style where my friends are just the people it's best to get along with friends-like because you're together a lot.
Outside of school where friends basically just enjoyed each others company, I would say most friendships now are made in the work related environments so there is often a layer of politics involved that make it difficult for everyone to see who is sincere and who is just networking. Nobody knows how they stand with each other so they are hesitant to develop strong relationships and trust with others.
Traditionally these bonds came about through other things like neighbors, communities and religion, but people are constantly moving for work, and society is more pluralistic (and secular) than ever so most don't begin to lay roots until they have a spouse in these roots aren't being laid, and there hasn't really been anything new that fills that gap outside of where you work.
This comment is really ambiguous to me. Your friends wouldn't hang out because of the pandemic? If you were criticizing that decision, surely you'd write that more explicitly. But you make it sound like they refuse to spare time, in which case, surely you'd clarify that it was not because of the virus, but then you'd have to explain what you mean by "Covid showed me...".
People will laugh but playing golf has increased my social circle by a wide amount. I play golf with different people all the time. I play 2-3 times a week. We have a core group of people 10-12 that always play together. Would join in golf trips going to play different places around the world. Huge age difference in the group. People in mid 20's all the way up to some who just turned 80. Gotta find that hobby and then find that group of people.
What is a "real friend" then? Many would argue that shared interests or experiences can certainly be the basis of at least some level of friendship.
There are certainly some people who might claim that the label of "real friend" only applies to those you could "trust to help bury a body", or some other extremely unlikely/intense situation. Like most things, the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle. There are likely varying degrees of friendship. Qualifying them as "real" (or not) comes across more like the informal logical fallacy of an appeal to purity (e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman) than anything.
Real friends will help out, not just greet you in a shared setting. Would they buy you lunch if you forgot your wallet? Loan you their vehicle? Help you move? Visit you in the hospital if you broke your leg? Actively try to help you with life in general?
As the saying goes when the chips are down, you will know who your true friends are.
A few of the older guys have been playing together for probably more than 20 years at least twice month over that time. A round at our club is about 4 hours. So something like over 2500 hours spent between them. One guy was moving and another wanted to move closer to golf course where a few of the guys lived. So they sold the house to them for below market rate. That seems like "real" friends to me. I could easily not play with these people. But we all try and play together. We always ask each other how are families are. What we have been up to. How is work etc. I can not think of anything that is more of real friend. Sure I am closer to some than others. But if I asked any of them for help with something They would help the best they can.
Sounds great, paradoxically I've heard one of the ways to improve friendships is to ask more of them. While it seems selfish, it can improve the friendship and of course they are more likely to ask more of you in the future.
That’s a good point! I hate how many paint any change to how it has been as a failure. This is exactly part of the social stigma that causes bad feelings in itself.
I lived in vehicles for ~9 years and dwindled down to 3 elderly, frail, sane homeless guys as friends (mostly, it was me helping them and I didn't expect anything in return).
- Be a friend to have friends.
- Be the source of the party, activities, and adventures. Do not wait around for anyone else to ask first, or it's waiting for Godot.
- Make everything an ADVENTURE! Going to get milk: ADVENTURE TIME! B) :D Ridiculousness on 11 with a broken knob.
- Bring more than there was before: stuff, energy, liveliness, etc.
- Be early or late.
- Always leave while everyone is still having a good time.
- Say "no" with frustration and schedule something concrete immediately.
- Exponentially-backoff after 2-3 texts / 1-2 calls.
- All of the "Let's do lunch people" who aren't interested in concrete plans are just being "nice" dicks, wasting your time and theirs.
- If people just want your number without anything else, they're trying to exit (and ghost you).
- Thank people with specific, personalized notes (cards or emails) after invites. Cards, where possible.
- Ask for people's birthdays and anniversaries.
- When you create contacts of people, demonstrate getting details like birth day and month and anniversary. It shows you don't just view people as ephemeral leads to the next networking event.
- Give people time to miss you but not time for forget you.
- You're only as good as your last impression.
- Lookout for the needs of others, listen, and don't be a greedy or selfish dick.
- Not as a moral judgement but have integrity: reliable, fair, keeps confidence, and trustworthy. If a particular cleaning or cleanup task should be absolutely necessary, there is no doubt about its conclusion.
- Dissuade a friend's worst proclivities while helping them see new abilities and capacities.
- Sense of humor: find it, grab it with both hands, and squeeze. Sorry, ma'am, I was making a point here with my 259 new internet friends who are such bastards who never invite me anywhere. Don't mind me, I'm just a terrible, weird, ugly, boring, desperate person dragging this cross along... don't even think of helping now that you didn't invite me. How dare you!? Good day to you, I say. I said "good day!" There is the door. Stop reading!
132 comments
[ 3.1 ms ] story [ 193 ms ] threadAnecdote, I'm 40, and I notice my younger male friends actually seem to have closer male friendships than I and my same age peers would have had, specifically more open about feelings, affection, basically things you'd be less likely to find and older generation man expressing. I wonder if it's like so many other disparities we see, where there are more very close friendships, more loners, and fewer people in the middle ground.
https://www.americansurveycenter.org/research/the-state-of-a...
I often think I should move to a city where some of my close school friends live. We are all techies and should really all work together but haven’t done so yet.
I currently live in my wife’s hometown and there are a lot of folks who were born and raised here so the social fabric is strong. That being said I haven’t made any friends here. Oddly my wife made all new friends and while still has childhood friends here doesn’t really see them.
The only other thing I do is golf and I get some socialization there.We will probably see things change post pandemic though.
My social circle grew a lot bigger when I first moved out, tho I lost touch with many high school “friends”. I moved places again in my early 20s and then it kept shrinking - more adult responsibilities, less friends.
I recently moved countries and my circle now consists of a handful of people I’ve been friends with 10-15+ Years, funnily most of these I’ve met online. We’re all part of the same group mostly, everyone with their responsibilities; wives, jobs, etc.
I’d say that’s pretty normal and expected
Worse for males because women are more social-oriented.
It's possible that some of those factors matter (I'd think smaller families would increase availability for socialization) but, to provide anecdote, my circle of friends expanded after my breakup, which makes sense.
This surprises me. Usually breakups cost friends, as some are associated more with the partner you're leaving.
> I'd think smaller families would increase availability for socialization
I dunno, there can be a lot of socialization within the extended family. It has a lot to do with culture though. In some there'll be a WhatsApp group full of cousins and aunties, plus three generations actually living together in a big compound, and all the socialization you could need (and then some). And if you travel you'll never need a hotel. Lots of cultures like this.
In my (limited) experience many stereotypes are accurate.
> I'd think smaller families would increase availability for socialization
It really depends, but I don't know. Large families are correlated with certain activities, beliefs, etc which might be what help increase social interaction. I know a lot of parents who have big families and their kids basically introduce them to half a dozen families who they're friends with and it exponentially increases opportunity for socializing as the children age and dynamics change.
This is also well proven -
https://www.spsp.org/news-center/blog/stereotype-accuracy-re...
Besides... "most tribes" bury their people in their late 40s on average. The belief that they have it all figured out is called the naturalistic fallacy.
Massai (men eat separately from women)
Victorians (yeah. White people.)
Trobianders (you know, because I'm supposed to be a credentialed anthropologist)
Amish (they still exist!)
Roma (DW has a nice documentary)
Then I googled for a list of Amazon tribes, took the first name I found ("Aweti"), and looked them up in Wikipedia. Immediately, "Culture" section:
> A men's hut is also located in the center of the village, and is used for holding ritual flutes which are not allowed to be seen by women.
What are the odds?
Look: You know how I know this? Because all these tribes are composed of people no different from you and me. This is just how people are.
For the first two: the US divorce rate was at its near peak around the time that the linked article's poll shows that male friendships were at their high mark[1]. The average US family size has also not changed significantly since 1990[2].
Put another way: there were more "broken" families in 1990, at a time when the poll says that more men had closer friendships, and the average family size hasn't swung in any direction that would suggest any relationship.
[1]: https://ifstudies.org/blog/the-us-divorce-rate-has-hit-a-50-...
[2]: https://www.statista.com/statistics/183657/average-size-of-a...
The ones responding to the polls then were divorced men who had been raised in stabler 1960's families.
Maybe being divorced isn't the problem, being raised by broken families is.
How do any of those 3 things relate to one another? This is such a bizarre non-sequitur that I can only assume you're trolling.
Heh, I’ve got some interesting comments about this before. I was once told by someone that they were surprised I listened to rap because I’m from the south and this wouldn’t like the race of the artists.
I figured I should then at least have the candor to sign post what I perceived to be the original poster's intent since you and others seemed to have trouble with it. Given your hostile response to that response (naturally after having been attacked) I won't continue to try.
In all honesty, if you're that insulated from the current zeitgeist, consider yourself fortunate.
How is what I asked hostile? They commenter made a statement about small towns and politics equating friendship. I've lived in those areas and I still have no idea what they mean. You have very strong opinions in this area and keep on lobbing partial ideas out there (just like this) as if everyone should understand how you feel without explicitly stating why.
>In all honesty, if you're that insulated from the current zeitgeist, consider yourself fortunate.
You seem to be consuming more media than you are interacting with the folks they're stirring up propaganda about to get views. As I've previously mentioned I have hobbies that are stereotypically aligned with certain demographics, and from the countless hours I've spent at gun ranges, muscle car shows and shops, tech conventions and art fairs, 99% of people's beliefs are not at the extremes of the political spectrum. The vocal minority usually creates the divisive attention you seem to be speaking of. I saw your other comment in this thread about ditching your friends because they were "more trouble than it's worth". I'm not surprised you believe everyone is at each other's throats based on that comment. Most people are very reasonable.
If you haven't seen compassionate and reasonable friends and family turn into paranoid, irrational, hate-filled conformists as they become Extremely Online, then in all sincerity, consider yourself fortunate.
It's a simple concept conservatives like conservative things like valuing long strong friendships. They in theory, value and do well a small number of things.
And it's a simple concept liberals like many flashy new things, they value the new and different.
It's a fair idea to do friendships well you move to a conservative place. To get lots of friends who come and go, you would go liberal.
Why is this trolling? Its a reasonable thesis. I don't think it's perfect, but it's interesting.
When I moved and left for college I was married already and most of my friends were not. My wife and I weren’t big into the clubbing thing so old friends sort of fell away. We did both make some friends in college, some mutual and some exclusive. But there were social factors that made that difficult - mainly we were very, very poor and were often embarrassed to have people over or go out since we couldn’t afford to. A small handful of those friendships live on in my wife’s social media but I have no social media footprint.
After college we both worked and that’s where I picked up the friends I have today. Two (now former) coworkers and a former boss. We have an ongoing text chat and we’re pretty open about real stuff. As luck would have it, both my former boss and I moved to the same state for new jobs and live fairly close. So the four of us (we and our wives) hang out on occasion.
At my current job I’ve picked up one more friend with whom I talk regularly about non work things. But I’m unsure how long that friendship will last as we’re both seeking new jobs, she’s leaving in a week and I’ll (hopefully) be leaving shortly thereafter. Hopefully it’ll last, but who knows.
My wife is better at making friends than I am. She’s joined several local groups around her interests and is slowly building a new social circle. But for me I tend to work from maybe 4am to 7pm and often during the weekend. So by the time I shut everything off at night I’m just so exhausted that I don’t have much more energy to do anything.
This is overwhelmingly true about everyone, having a single digit count of close friends. People that pretend to have dozens of close friends, are liars, whether consciously or subconsciously (specifically they're maintaining a facade to draw social points from, narcissistically). It's not feasible to successfully maintain so many high level relationships, even if it's all a person does all day.
A typical social butterfly might have a few dozen active social connections that they keep alive by occasionally touching base, which is very different from having that many good friends.
15 hours days and more on the weekend sounds incredibly unhealthy. How do you eat, sleep, and socialize?
The biggest reason I work so much is that the team I’m on is very small and I’m the “sr architect” which sounds considerably fancier than it is. In reality I’m the architect and the engineer and the prod support agent and the integration and business architect. Because my team is not considered essential we do not have budget to hire more FTEs but because our “internal clients” ARE considered essential we are basically at their mercy. And I see other teams in the company get descoped every month. So I’ve been trying to keep the workload handled so that my team doesn’t all get fired. But I can’t do it anymore which is why I’m trying to leave. Had 6 rounds of interviews with our biggest competitor over the past two weeks and I think they all went well. So hopefully in a couple of days I’ll be able to slap down my two weeks, burn my never used PTO, and hope for better days in a new org.
As a happily married gay man, however, I find that a lot of straight men still get the wrong idea when I, e.g., invite them for a drink after work, even when it's as part of a group with other people. It's happened a few times now and I'm seriously perturbed! What other signals do I need to be throwing to tell people I just want to be friends?
I still maintain friendships with libertarian friends, some of them I haven't seen for many years. I don't have fewer close friends than I'd like.
Perhaps your friends stopped getting in contact with you after they realized that you’re an asshole.
Conversely, once you get past this my other advice would be "many to one" - hang out in groups frequently to massage things, and try to hang out with people by themselves as frequently as possible. as great as group hang outs are - it's just not the same as one-on-one. for one you're not as candid about things.
finally my last note would be: just because you see someone alot in a group does not mean you are friends. I cannot emphasize this enough. you must hang out with people in smaller groups, ideally one-on-one (this is not to say that people you hang out with in groups aren't your friends, tho).
How did I do it? I made every single faux pas in front of people. Made constant mistakes and errors to learn how to properly socialize myself. Guess what? It worked. It just took consistent effort and a resolve to get over the fact that I wouldn't always be an awkward person to every new person I met.
Our urban sprawl/car dependence is probably mostly responsible for the decline in friendships.
Maybe. I think this has its own set of problems, but I struggle to see a link between car dependence and friendships. I think social media and online games have contributed more to the decline of interpersonal relationships than car culture has.
That's what happened to me, anyways
I suspect it actually has to do with later marriages and declining fertility. As someone who doesn't really seek friendship, everyone I know socially is either through work or parents of my kids' friends.
Is there a source for this claim? (not being acerbic - genuine question)
How? Joined a fraternal organization. It's the least fashionable or cool thing to do, and that's precisely what made it a good idea. It is a way to have something in common without a lot of baggage or overhead, and you get to see what other men are really like from every walk of life, at different stages of their lives. The organizations are what you make them, and bringing conditions and expectation goes as well as you expect.
I say men because a lot of young guys these days are uncomfortable saying out loud that they are a man. Instead they say they are a "person," "an adult," a "guy," or a "dude." Nobody needs a deep philosophical explanation of it, but being able to self accept enough to say you are a man is exceptional these days. You can certainly be all those things, but if someone asked you point blank whether you were a good man, for many it's an uncomfortably direct question. I think this is the root of what makes male friendships hard, we've all become too neurotic and anxious.
The org I joined doesn't have any answers to that (it's not unlike a theatre group), but just being around other guys and doing the work to keep the thing running gives you the tools to figure it out for yourself if that's your thing. I also think we've been given a bunch of substitute cognitively limiting tools to dodge the question, like saying we aren't bros or toxic masculine persons, or don't need to overcompensate because we're educated, etc. I think because many of us haven't been equipped with the tools to discern what it means to be a good one makes the whole thing intimidating.
Anyway, in mine, I hang out with a wildly diverse group (whole spectrum of religion, sexuality, ethnicity, age, etc), and in having almost nothing in common, the equillibrium we manage to find gives you an idea of a common thread that we can find. It helps everyone recognize there is a way to meet almost anyone on the level. It's not for everyone, and that bar makes the other side of it really special. Partners are fine with it because it's good clean fun and knowing 20+ guys who will return your txts is pretty cool.
I think the thing that turned me is I saw the quality of the criticisms on the internet of fraternal organizations and the list of who has historically been against them, and I figured if there was a team I could join, it would be the one those anti- people are against. The rules are that the organization can't recruit, so if you want to be the change, the opportunity is unlimited.
I'm having the same issue as I'm in a similar age bracket and it's getting harder to make new connections. I've attended Rotary and Lion's club meetings as a guest (they're both community-service organizations) but haven't clicked with the crowd, some chapters seem to imply a prestigious career grants greater chance of membership which is not what I'm looking for.
Looking to hear comments on Masonry or other similar organizations.
I had some 'friends' who I knew for 10+ years who couldn't spare a single minute over the past 1.5 years to go for a walk or have a coffee outside. As someone who was there for them at various points in life, all I could think of was "really, you know I live alone and don't have an SO like you do, did it seriously never cross your mind how lonely it's been for me?" Unless I made the umpteenth trip to visit him/her, they would make zero effort.
I also had friends including those who just had newborns who made the time every single week to jump on a zoom call just to say hi and to keep each others spirits up.
I probably won't let it destroy the friendships because what is 1.5 years compared to 10+, but at the same time, I'd be lying if I said it was easy to forget.
Some others would be out gallivanting every day (per their socials) and yet couldn't find a half an hour to hang out. I gave up on those. No loss.
In 2020, the US was dealing with the stress of a pandemic and also the most anxiety-inducing election season in modern history.
Some people dealt with it by totally shutting down or narrowing their circles. It wasn't personal.
This sounds like a sunk-cost fallacy to me. You've already pointed out that friendship length isn't correlated with friendship quality.
You were expecting people to meet you during a pandemic? Or am I misunderstanding?
I have friends who work at the CDC that I saw regularly during the pandemic (outdoors, distanced, and masked when necessary).
In person interactions are okay too. I hung out with lots of friends who frequently tested and limited their encounters to those who took the same precautions and none of us caught Corona.
I doubt more than a handful actually thought that
Partially because having been dropped by a few "friends" in my childhood though.
- had you at a disadvantage but never exploited it
- someone who helps you move a couch and a desk
- lend a book to and always get it back
- lend a small amount of money to and always get it back
- leave something at their place and they tell you about it
- can count on them for a couch if you get locked-out
The closest of friends:
- you would kill for them and vice-versa
- you trust them implicitly with everything: secrets, material, and family
- you could be mistaken for family and/or your families blend together to where no one can really tell who-is-with-who
Many people this past year were terrified and traumatized.
We talk if "normal stuff" (including the Pandemic) for 10-15 minutes top at the start, especially while waiting for everybody to get online, then we play for two hours straight. Voice only, no video. It's a Fantasy campaign so it's pure escapism. It sorta worked so far.
What Covid showed me was that nearly all of my friends were people I had friendly working relationships with. A ton of my friends were from church where we served in different capacities together and enjoyed working together. And I had a lot of similar relationships at work. But with stay at home covid, I found that I didn't yearn to see these people still. I'm glad when we do stuff together, we enjoy doing so. But I don't miss them. And I found there was a small handful of people that were worth making the effort to actually go on socially distanced walks or whatever to still just hang out.
I am never going back to that super busy over programmed life style where my friends are just the people it's best to get along with friends-like because you're together a lot.
Traditionally these bonds came about through other things like neighbors, communities and religion, but people are constantly moving for work, and society is more pluralistic (and secular) than ever so most don't begin to lay roots until they have a spouse in these roots aren't being laid, and there hasn't really been anything new that fills that gap outside of where you work.
There are certainly some people who might claim that the label of "real friend" only applies to those you could "trust to help bury a body", or some other extremely unlikely/intense situation. Like most things, the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle. There are likely varying degrees of friendship. Qualifying them as "real" (or not) comes across more like the informal logical fallacy of an appeal to purity (e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman) than anything.
As the saying goes when the chips are down, you will know who your true friends are.
- Be a friend to have friends.
- Be the source of the party, activities, and adventures. Do not wait around for anyone else to ask first, or it's waiting for Godot.
- Make everything an ADVENTURE! Going to get milk: ADVENTURE TIME! B) :D Ridiculousness on 11 with a broken knob.
- Bring more than there was before: stuff, energy, liveliness, etc.
- Be early or late.
- Always leave while everyone is still having a good time.
- Say "no" with frustration and schedule something concrete immediately.
- Exponentially-backoff after 2-3 texts / 1-2 calls.
- All of the "Let's do lunch people" who aren't interested in concrete plans are just being "nice" dicks, wasting your time and theirs.
- If people just want your number without anything else, they're trying to exit (and ghost you).
- Thank people with specific, personalized notes (cards or emails) after invites. Cards, where possible.
- Ask for people's birthdays and anniversaries.
- When you create contacts of people, demonstrate getting details like birth day and month and anniversary. It shows you don't just view people as ephemeral leads to the next networking event.
- Give people time to miss you but not time for forget you.
- You're only as good as your last impression.
- Lookout for the needs of others, listen, and don't be a greedy or selfish dick.
- Not as a moral judgement but have integrity: reliable, fair, keeps confidence, and trustworthy. If a particular cleaning or cleanup task should be absolutely necessary, there is no doubt about its conclusion.
- Dissuade a friend's worst proclivities while helping them see new abilities and capacities.
- Sense of humor: find it, grab it with both hands, and squeeze. Sorry, ma'am, I was making a point here with my 259 new internet friends who are such bastards who never invite me anywhere. Don't mind me, I'm just a terrible, weird, ugly, boring, desperate person dragging this cross along... don't even think of helping now that you didn't invite me. How dare you!? Good day to you, I say. I said "good day!" There is the door. Stop reading!