Coersion is a Nuremberg violation and we are going to take you to task. Medical coersion is punishable by death. I feel beyond coerced by this article and others. It flat out lies to get me to accept genetic therapy or lose my freedom. Nuremberg 2 is near. I cant wait. See you at the gallows.
What this heartbreaking article leaves out is that none of these unvaccinated patients or their relatives have to personally pay any of the medical costs for their advanced treatment. (Edit: FYI, the CARES act reimburses providers for any COVID-related costs if you're uninsured: https://www.hrsa.gov/coviduninsuredclaim) At this point, being unvaccinated without an approved medical reason (e.g. immunocompromised) should be treated as a pre-existing condition. If you decline the vaccine, you should have to pay the full cost of the medical treatment.
Fine, then let people choose to be treated early on with Ivermectin or HCQ. Lets see what the results bear out.
Considering 'right to try' essentially amounts to 'you are dying, so you can try and experimental drug and see if it works' and the vax is presently experimental and emergency use only, why not permit the other two?
If Ivermectin is allowed as a treatment, then an existing option existed and the vaccines would not have been allowed under the FDA emergency authorization
At this point, being unvaccinated without an approved medical reason (e.g. immunocompromised) should be treated as a pre-existing condition
What are you talking about?
Under current law, health insurance companies can’t refuse to cover you or charge you more just because you have a “pre-existing condition” — that is, a health problem you had before the date that new health coverage starts.These rules went into effect for plan years beginning on or after January 1, 2014.
I don’t wish any harm on anyone though. If you assume I’m unvaccinated because I called someone out on their outdated misunderstanding of how pre-existing conditions work it says more about you than me.
Wait a second, you think everyone that hasn't been vaccinated is "willfully ignorant"?
Bruh, c'mon, anyone can look at the numbers and come to their own conclusions (until complete censorship takes that option away). I mean, have you not had coworkers disagree with you about how to implement or do something? If the choice is made to use their idea instead of yours, are you secretly hoping for the project to fail?
Hoping the project to fail, no. Willing to pay real money when their project failed for predictible causes because they didn't do basic due diligence, also no.
If the team is using python and they decide they know better and go rogue and use haskell, I'll hope they fail/be punished. Group cooperation is important on big issues.
That argument falls on its face as soon as you check most other illness. What if you're sick because you don't work out, eat like shit, etc? If you start discriminating on what people did/do to prevent illness when treating them you'll never stop and are bound to have biased judgment.
Not familiar with those that much (I live in a public healthcare country where they can't discriminate on bad lifestyle), but from parent it seems they can't change your premium if your lifestyle changes? (Which seems more similar to what op proposed).
Okay, I got the "preexisting conditions" terminology wrong. I think if you don't listen to medical experts and get a free, universally available vaccine, the rest of society shouldn't pay for the very expensive costs of your choice.
How much do you have to be wrong about before you start questioning your holier-than-thou attitudes? The FDA still hasn’t officially approved a single COVID vaccine yet and isn’t expected to for another month or two. And yet here you are wanting people punished for not taking a vaccine that the FDA hasn’t even approved yet. Your tough talk isn’t backed up by any understanding of US healthcare.
I also feel your frustration, but if one isn't convinced by "You may get this virus and die," then I don't think they'll be convinced by "You may get this virus, die, and your family will be in crippling debt."
> If you decline the vaccine, you should have to pay the full cost of the medical treatment.
Would you accept the same approach also for other cases where people could prevent (or decrease risk by orders of magnitude) by their own choices, like "who gets HIV from high-risk unprotected sex, should pay the full cost of treatment"?
In UK and Israel more than 50% of deaths are vaccinated. Also it is said 90% already has antibodies from infection or vaccine. So wouldn't that mean heard immunity?
>An important correction on the Israel story. Half of “adults” infected in Israel were fully vaxxed, not half of all cases. About half of the total infections were kids. Means about 25% of infections were in fully vaxxed, and most if not all were reportedly asymptomatic infections
Even if it were true, with a high enough percentage of vaccinated citizens, the base-rate fallacy will ultimately make statements like yours misleading:
Try claiming your life insurance, total and permanent disability or income protection benefits when claims exclude injury, death or disablement caused by experimental treatments and unapproved therapies
> “On the one hand, there’s this sense of ‘Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.’ There’s a natural inclination to think not that they got what they deserved, because no one deserves this, but that they have some culpability because of the choices they made.” He went on, “When you have that intuition, you have to try to push it aside. You have to say, That’s a moral judgment which is outside my role as a doctor. And because it’s a pejorative moral judgment, I need to do everything I can to fight against it. But I’d be lying if I said it didn’t remain somewhere in the recesses of my mind. This sense of, Boy, it doesn’t have to be this way.”
Why not both?
Yes, it is a judgement that is outside a doctor’s role, and as such, is not one they should be actively making.
But it IS a judgement that SHOULD be imposed in some manner.
To remain unvaccinated comes down to either one, and typically both, of two highly destructive pathologies that run distressingly deep in western society: cultivated ignorance and “muh rights”.
39 comments
[ 61.8 ms ] story [ 1373 ms ] threadConsidering 'right to try' essentially amounts to 'you are dying, so you can try and experimental drug and see if it works' and the vax is presently experimental and emergency use only, why not permit the other two?
What are you talking about?
Under current law, health insurance companies can’t refuse to cover you or charge you more just because you have a “pre-existing condition” — that is, a health problem you had before the date that new health coverage starts.These rules went into effect for plan years beginning on or after January 1, 2014.
https://www.hhs.gov/healthcare/about-the-aca/pre-existing-co...
Please don’t be one of those “if you don’t listen to me I hope you die” types; you can catch more flies with honey.
Vaccines are free and widely available; there are no more carrots left to offer the ignorant.
Wait, now you're against Obamacare as well?
What part about 'not been fully studied' and 'experimental' do people such as yourself not understand?
Bruh, c'mon, anyone can look at the numbers and come to their own conclusions (until complete censorship takes that option away). I mean, have you not had coworkers disagree with you about how to implement or do something? If the choice is made to use their idea instead of yours, are you secretly hoping for the project to fail?
Nothing against haskell.
Also what about life insurance policies excluding any cover for death, disability or loss of income caused by experimental therapies?
Would you accept the same approach also for other cases where people could prevent (or decrease risk by orders of magnitude) by their own choices, like "who gets HIV from high-risk unprotected sex, should pay the full cost of treatment"?
Meanwhile, old adults are almost all vaccinated, but have a much higher CFR.
https://www.deccanherald.com/amp/international/world-news-po...
Although you might point at several things, including more than 50% of population being vaccinated
It still shows that the vaccine might not be that effective.
In the UK there is also the strange 12 weeks interval between doses, instead of 4 recommended by manufacturer, and used in other countries
Nope, that's false. This was misreported by the WSJ and they have issued a correction: https://twitter.com/ScottGottliebMD/status/14088615013063761...
>An important correction on the Israel story. Half of “adults” infected in Israel were fully vaxxed, not half of all cases. About half of the total infections were kids. Means about 25% of infections were in fully vaxxed, and most if not all were reportedly asymptomatic infections
Even if it were true, with a high enough percentage of vaccinated citizens, the base-rate fallacy will ultimately make statements like yours misleading:
https://twitter.com/jeffely/status/1408500890999328770?s=21
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/reboot/most-covid-deaths-e...
The article is a random, that points to the original gov data
Why not both?
Yes, it is a judgement that is outside a doctor’s role, and as such, is not one they should be actively making.
But it IS a judgement that SHOULD be imposed in some manner.
To remain unvaccinated comes down to either one, and typically both, of two highly destructive pathologies that run distressingly deep in western society: cultivated ignorance and “muh rights”.