And because it's from Microsoft, you're going to keep paying for it, over and over again!
Windows update? That's gonna cost you an hour. Update got botched? 2 hours, and all of your browser settings. Registry corrupted?!? 3 hours for backup and reinstall! Can't figure out how to change a setting, because the option used to be there, then disappeared in the last update? 1 hour searching SO, 1 hour crying.
I don't use it, as I don't like having a monkey on my back. I had the unfortunate experience of having to install it today after losing a long battle to get Fusion 360 running smoothly on Linux. I can say first hand that Windows has become so much more mediocre than I remember; everything about it screams "we cater to the average and mundane".
Many Windows 10 users didn't pay for it. It was shoved down their throats against their will as an "important security update" to Windows 7 or Windows 8.
To be even more specific - a browser that I can buy and get a guarantee that they will not turn me into a product later, when they're offered lots of money to do so.
The entire "Edge" browser is opt-in .... as long as you manage to ignore the repeated prompts to install it and set it as default that appear every 3 days....
Ah, the classic "unwanted feature that you have to waste your time trolling the internet in hopes of finding an way to turn it off that wasn't changed in the last forced unwanted update"! I bill at $60 an hour, to whom do I send the invoice?
I'm sure a man with Charles Petzolds intellect and computing experience can easily find the setting to disable the feature on the Privacy, search and service section of Edge's settings It took me less than 30 seconds to find it.
There is something deeply wrong that I even need to hunt down and disable some setting some marketing halfwit thought would be a nice idea to shove in my face.
By feature you mean what would have been called a malware once, the only difference is that instead of being a crap plugin installed by mistake in IE it is now pushed by microsoft itself?
It's unclear whether this is a monetized feature. I can't get the feature to trigger to check if there's e.g. any affiliate codes. (Maybe it's US-only feature?). But my guess would be that at least to start with it is not monetized in any way.
As far as I can see, they surely are. The front page country-specific bookmarks in the Edge browser are with affiliate links, such as Booking.com, eBay, etc., and then after a few local suggestions.
Was surprised to see how bad the UX was when trying Edge on the Mac. They claim to be super privacy-focused, yet anyways I need to accept a cookie banner with many data partners to get access to the settings button.
Not a lawyer, but doesn't this reek of an antitrust issue again?
Imagine, I'm an operator of an independent book store - and Microsoft uses their market power to actively drive away customers from my site and direct them to the competition instead.
Bonus points for the dark patterns embedded in that dialog box which make it hard to not switch to Walmart even if you actively want to stay on the page.
Walmart will price match. If you show them the website of a competitor like Amazon with a cheaper price, they will charge you the lower price. I wonder how that would play into this.
I suspect Microsoft isn't indexing prices of smaller retailers as well, so that would also drive more business to Walmart.
Indeed it does. Googling the feature, it's said to scan for items that have coupons. I guess I can get behind that (scan only the active page for known items, match with known rebates, and don't drive me to a separate site).
I could even get behind a site warning for purchases known fraud sites (In jurisdictions where such blacklists are easy to come by from relevant authorities).
But driving me from an independent store to WalMart to save $2? Imagine Wal Mart sending out one employee to walk around each independent bookstore, whispering "you can get that 10% cheaper at Wal Mart". I think people might take offense.Here microsoft offers exactly that service to Wal Mart.
This has actually been in Microsoft Edge for the last several months. The fact nobody noticed on Hacker News until now shows how many of us are using Edge...
I think the author forgets that edge is not custom software written just for him. It is written for the masses. And masses like me like this feature. It has saved me a couple of hundred dollars since launch since I shop online and use Edge. Also if you are so upset, then just disable it -> Settings > Privacy > Save Time and Money
I don’t think this is the right question to ask. Browsers can push any number of malware or tracking and then exclaim “can’t you just turn it off?”.
I understand that some users find this feature useful, I just completely disagree with how it was rolled out.
You're assuming this is malware or tracking. I don't think that assumption is warranted. And at least this unasked-for feature is ostensibly pro-user, unlike Firefox's user-hostile additions like the Mr. Robot nonsense.
People use Edge? I assumed that a majority of users do what I do on a fresh install, and download literally any browser that's not made by Microsoft, and set it as default.
You're talking Windows users. They already either know they're being tracked and don't care, or who don't know they're being tracked. Why would they care about a different browser?
Windows can be very pushy about resetting the default every now and then. One update a year or two ago opened a full-screen ad for an Edge tutorial that could only be skipped by going into the task manager and force closing the process, and even then unset the default browser and added an Edge icon to both the taskbar and desktop. I wouldn't be a surprised if a lot of people have been bulldozed into taking the path of least resistance.
The trivial non-tracking implementation would be for edge to install the entire database of products and prices to your local device.
Whether that is practical or not depends on just how large the database is. But even if the database were to be too large, it'd still allow us to reduce the question to one of how to download the database incrementally to the device without leaking information, which is a solved problem. (E.g.the Safe Browsing algorithm.)
The trivial non-tracking implementation would be checking if the domain of a requested page matches a certain list of known e-commerce sites. If so, then on load, query the other known e-commerce sites through a proxy to see if there's a cheaper price. No tracking necessary.
That would be both highly non-trivial and non-private.
For the non-trivial part, the approach would be hell to scale to any significant number of e-commerce sites. You can't have the client connect to tens of thousands of sites on a page load. And how do you reliably find the matching product pages on the other sites? It's easy if you can crawl the sites, but extremely hard if you tried to do it with point lookups.
As for the privacy, who operates the proxy? Why is giving them both your IP address and a stream of all commercially interesting web pages you visit not a tracking concern?
If the browser doesn't work with your ethics of how a browser should operate, then it isn't the browser for you. That's okay. There are other options out there.
Remember that one HTTP header that's always attached to every request every browser makes? User-Agent. Ha ha. Those were the days, when browsers were acting in the interest of their users.
Nah I won't be disabling it because I have never even used edge in the first place. Doesn't change the fact that people are rightly pissed off by the fact that the masses are so downright stupid and dragging themselves and the rest of humanity toward destruction.
Firefox and Mozilla got a lot more outrage for including Pocket, which was basically a slightly juiced up bookmarks or Read it Later functionality that nearly every other browser includes.
Agreed- Crazy that this came from him. In the last 2-3 months Ive noticed a few pretty annoying things happening with my MS account- First the weather toolbar was added to my system tray and it looked very much like one of those spam toolbars that have plagued Windows ad/malware. Next I started getting memories from OneDrive. I use my 1 drive for dev backup and as such I get an email from MS with a bunch of icon images as a memory.
> Next I started getting memories from OneDrive. I use my 1 drive for dev backup and as such I get an email from MS with a bunch of icon images as a memory.
The anger stems from the exhaustion of having to opt out of yet another decision a megacorporation has unilaterally made to explicitly manipulate, correct, or badger you about your personal behaviors.
Yeah. When I saw the link title I was wondering what half-baked clout chasing blogger was trying to stir the shit for clicks.
When I saw it was Petzold, I was just flat out shocked. This is the guy when it comes to developing for Windows. He is deep in the Microsoft ecosystem. For him to come out this strongly against a product means it's probably worse than even that.
> In 1984 I began writing for PC Magazine, which led to a full-time freelance career that included writing for Microsoft Systems Journal and MSDN magazines.
> My book Programming Windows was published in six editions between 1988 and 2012
> In 2014 I began working as a full-time employee for Xamarin (which was acquired in 2016 by Microsoft), where I wrote a book and documentation
Yes I think that is relevant. Mostly though it isn't about the specific recommendation, my beef is with the repurposing of what were formerly tools meant to be wielded by human intent into a conduit for big corp to implement its own schemes while ostensibly serving the user.
I don't for a moment trust Microsoft not to serve its own interest in its recommendations. Maybe its lowest price but only from a pool of approved vendors? Oh you have a lower price? But we don't know who you are, not safe to recommend you. etc etc.
> The assumption that I need help buying a book is the biggest insult...
Insult is too strong a word. Like many here, I think something like this should be opt-in. But I also think the same about "smart recommendations" that try to auto-complete a word I'm typing or add something to my calendar based on recent emails.
I dislike them all and want them all to be opt-in. I think it's predatory by design -- but why anyone would be "insulted" is beyond me.
I'm honestly not sure what is or isn't opt-in on Windows at this point. It frequently asks you after updates to enable a bunch of stuff, but I just say no to everything and hardly anything stands out to me.
It wouldn't surprise me if Windows asks about product suggestions or shopping enhancements(or something along those lines) at some point and that drives this functionality.
EDIT: I don't usually use Edge so I just tried this and I received the lower price notice but not as the author describes. I got a little notice on the right side of the address bar that collapsed about 3 seconds later into the tag icon. I had to click on that icon to get the popup with the shopping details.
Although "biggest insult" is over the top, its part of a pattern of Microsoft providing annoying "help" that makes their software distracting and harder to use, and in aggregate really does insult the user.
Some people may want this stuff, I want my computer to leave me alone and let me work. MS has a pattern of disrespect to the user that overall I agree is insulting.
Charles Petzold is a God amongst programmers. His "Programming Windows 3.1" book was the foundation of my company. Still going strong twenty-five years later.
I loathe MS Edge. In spite of explicitly setting my default file associations to my preferred applications, every other day Windows insists on resetting PDF, JPG etc. to Edge. Va te faire foutre.
> In spite of explicitly setting my default file associations to my preferred applications
And getting griped at by Windows for doing it, too.
"Oh won't you pleeeeeeease consider using the Strongest, Securest, Bestest, Most Wonderfulest Browser Out There, the amazing Microsoft Edge instead of whatever piece of shit blob of code you downloaded from the very untrustworthy dark Interweb?!?"
No, Windows browser team, I want to use Firefox and just like Google pushing their browser on their platform I resent you pushing yours.
LOL this reminds me of IE on Windows Server. In order to keep your server secure, they put IE in "Enhanced Security Configuration" mode which breaks the entire web. It cracks me up that the only way IE is secure, is when it's useless. It's basically an admission that IE was not secure enough to run in default mode, when it's only going to be used on a server by someone experienced enough with tech to set up a server. But those regular desktop pelbs, you all can just have insecure IE.
To their credit, the enhanced security configuration does turn off JS and reduces other attack surface significantly. Also, IE has a very useful black/whitelisting feature called Internet Zones (which Edge removed, not surprisingly) so you can allow those features on sites you really do trust.
"breaks the entire web" is really an exaggeration from the Google-propaganda-pushers. You don't all the extra crap like JS when you're just looking at static pages. A lot of sites are fine without. This site doesn't need JS either.
Edge lost its value proposition after becoming just another Chromium shell wannabe. Original, native Edge used to have a great epub reader and had less resource consumption.
My work computer resets my preferences after each reboot (which I only do when system updates come down). Otherwise, it sticks. Personal computer keeps my defaults.
It's both work and personal (Windows 10). I run my own small business. I don't have a "corporate policy".
I was under the impression that Windows somehow challenges apps by performing some type of test, and resets the file associations "for the user's safety" if the apps don't respond appropriately.
May want to look into it with support or something, this isn’t normal behavior. It should retain your defaults (it does on the Windows machines and Windows VMs I’ve made or worked on. My work laptop being the only one that doesn’t and that’s a corporate thing).
I think the “insulted” part is too much. Yes, the consumers shopping on bookshop.org for a common book aren’t just trying to get books for the lowest price, but maybe 99% of online shoppers are. Maybe I should be insulted that the author thinks being identified as someone wanting the lowest price is insulting.
This is a fine reason to yell at clouds because Edge seems to share your shopping lists with Microsoft. But that argument didn't ever stop the voucher crowd anyway.
Your average person isn’t looking at this through that lens. Unless you’re doing a lot of work the amount of tracking you’re being subject to is astronomical and at least in this case there is a tangible benefit to them.
The discourse around privacy and tracking isn’t particularly relevant here and it certainly isn’t front of mind for your average person.
I mean it is the perfect expression of what a lot of us hate about modern apps. The constant sucking up of all data for advertising.
Lets be honest to follow best practice on security/privacy is a constant schlep of tweaking options and compromising on functionality. Then to have a base tool just throw in your face that "We've added a feature and even though you've got 'send do not track' ticked this is not at all the same so we'll turn it on by default". Yeah I understand the need to vent especially if he chose IE as a minor way to get away from google tracking[1].
I mean, sure, we probably won't ever reach verification mountain dew, but that meme first came about in 2012 and not surprisingly we've slid closer and closer to that in the mean time. People have had years of getting sicker and sicker of the slow visible decline.
[1] After seeing the comments about who the author is it's more likely he defaults to Microsoft products.
>Maybe I should be insulted that the author thinks being identified as someone wanting the lowest price is insulting.
They give completely valid reasons and they're not necessarily angry specifically about a lower price being offered, but that Edge does not know which metrics by which they judge a store.
Ie Say I'm trying to buy specifically from an LGBT friendly site, oop but it's cheaper over at this other place that also sponsors several anti-LGBT politicos, so the suggestion is useless because price isn't everything, it just is most of the time.
I miss the days when software basically did what it was told (by the user, not the author) and didn't spam you with adverts (also known as "recommendations" now), smarmy cutesy messages, or otherwise get in your way of doing things.
Browsers are probably one of the worst offenders. Edge is not far from Chrome, and although Firefox is probably the sanest, it also has a disturbingly small marketshare and seems to be going down the same path.
When I use "modern" software, I don't feel like a user; I feel like I'm being used.
> and didn't spam you with adverts (also known as "recommendations" now), smarmy cutesy messages
And frame every opt-out choice as "YES I LOVE THIS AND WANT IT TURNED ON FOREVER AND EVER AND NEVER SHOW ME THIS PROMPT EVER AGAIN" versus "sigh fine I guess I don't want it FOR NOW but please make certain to ask me about it nine more times a day for the rest of infinity."
I think the bigger problem with this is that Edge doesn't present the content the retailer provided and the user requested; instead, it presents, unasked, what it hopes the user might prefer. The browser is not acting as a medium between the user and retailer, but is imposing on both. I'd have a lot less problem with a [whatever]bar button that you could click and see other offers for the same item. The former is frustrating and insulting; the latter is not: it's no longer an interruption if the user asks for the information instead of having the browser push it in their face.
So, like, stop using Edge. Firefox doesn't do this crap! At some point, it's the fault of the person choosing the tool that's known to be made by an actor so bad they conceived Windows 10.
Sadly, even Firefox isn't perfect. Look at its new tab page and Pocket in particular. (I do agree that Firefox is way better than Edge or Chrome, though.)
Difference being that in Firefox you can set the preferences to not show those things once and if you get on a new device just sign into Sync and you're off to the races.
Contrast that to Microsofts constant badgering, reset preferences after every update (conveniently), etc etc.
Kinda. Firefox keeps changing things anyways and adds more stuff to turn off or modify. I used to routinely find myself helping out family members with getting their Firefox back to how it used to be, and it really did suck. Worst of all, they're now forcing Firefox Accounts down people's throats. Swapped to Librewolf some time ago and haven't looked back, but it's unfortunate that they soil their name like that.
I've noticed that when using dev tools in Edge I see pretty consistent hits to my services coming from a Microsoft ip address within 30 seconds. Chrome does not do this. It's a little off-putting.
Hey Charles, thank you for your wonderful book. "Programming Windows 3.1". I read every page and it was a great kick start to becoming a working programmer. Not sure if I should mention, I ditched Windows for Linux when XP came out :)
Windows has just become completely invasive and has been going down that path for a long time. I use Linux at home but help seniors and others in town with tech stuff. The problems they're running into aren't even simple problems, they're manufactured problems by the Office suite and Windows adding confusing and unneeded features like this. For that population in particular that stuff seems so predatory.
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[ 5.0 ms ] story [ 295 ms ] thread2. Microsoft is targeting the mass consumers who are price driven.
3. It is creepy they are monitoring your traffic and making suggestions.
4. Edge is standing on the shoulders of the chrome giants.
5. Screw Edge.
Windows update? That's gonna cost you an hour. Update got botched? 2 hours, and all of your browser settings. Registry corrupted?!? 3 hours for backup and reinstall! Can't figure out how to change a setting, because the option used to be there, then disappeared in the last update? 1 hour searching SO, 1 hour crying.
However it’s your choice in this day and age to use windows.
To be even more specific - a browser that I can buy and get a guarantee that they will not turn me into a product later, when they're offered lots of money to do so.
Was surprised to see how bad the UX was when trying Edge on the Mac. They claim to be super privacy-focused, yet anyways I need to accept a cookie banner with many data partners to get access to the settings button.
Sent them bunch of feedback.
Imagine, I'm an operator of an independent book store - and Microsoft uses their market power to actively drive away customers from my site and direct them to the competition instead.
Bonus points for the dark patterns embedded in that dialog box which make it hard to not switch to Walmart even if you actively want to stay on the page.
I suspect Microsoft isn't indexing prices of smaller retailers as well, so that would also drive more business to Walmart.
I could even get behind a site warning for purchases known fraud sites (In jurisdictions where such blacklists are easy to come by from relevant authorities).
But driving me from an independent store to WalMart to save $2? Imagine Wal Mart sending out one employee to walk around each independent bookstore, whispering "you can get that 10% cheaper at Wal Mart". I think people might take offense.Here microsoft offers exactly that service to Wal Mart.
I use the feature, beats the hell out of installing Honey and going to bing/google shopping which is just paid adverts vs catalogs they used to do...
And can’t you just turn this off?
Whether that is practical or not depends on just how large the database is. But even if the database were to be too large, it'd still allow us to reduce the question to one of how to download the database incrementally to the device without leaking information, which is a solved problem. (E.g.the Safe Browsing algorithm.)
For the non-trivial part, the approach would be hell to scale to any significant number of e-commerce sites. You can't have the client connect to tens of thousands of sites on a page load. And how do you reliably find the matching product pages on the other sites? It's easy if you can crawl the sites, but extremely hard if you tried to do it with point lookups.
As for the privacy, who operates the proxy? Why is giving them both your IP address and a stream of all commercially interesting web pages you visit not a tracking concern?
I'm sorry, but that sounds hilarious.
Although, they should add that feature on GitHub. (No I'm not serious, Mr/Ms. GitHub PM!)
I dont even know what weather its picking up or how to change it
Its very frustrating
Total garbage.
What a joke of a company...
When I saw it was Petzold, I was just flat out shocked. This is the guy when it comes to developing for Windows. He is deep in the Microsoft ecosystem. For him to come out this strongly against a product means it's probably worse than even that.
> In 1984 I began writing for PC Magazine, which led to a full-time freelance career that included writing for Microsoft Systems Journal and MSDN magazines.
> My book Programming Windows was published in six editions between 1988 and 2012
> In 2014 I began working as a full-time employee for Xamarin (which was acquired in 2016 by Microsoft), where I wrote a book and documentation
"Computing with Windows 11. Would you like to consider this book "1984"".
> Website blocked due to a Trojan
> Your Malwarebytes Premium blocked this website because it may contain a Trojan.
> We strongly recommend you do not continue.
I'm not sure why, though apparently a similar block was supposed to be removed in October 2019: https://forums.malwarebytes.com/topic/252675-site-blocked-ww...
Insult is too strong a word. Like many here, I think something like this should be opt-in. But I also think the same about "smart recommendations" that try to auto-complete a word I'm typing or add something to my calendar based on recent emails.
I dislike them all and want them all to be opt-in. I think it's predatory by design -- but why anyone would be "insulted" is beyond me.
It wouldn't surprise me if Windows asks about product suggestions or shopping enhancements(or something along those lines) at some point and that drives this functionality.
EDIT: I don't usually use Edge so I just tried this and I received the lower price notice but not as the author describes. I got a little notice on the right side of the address bar that collapsed about 3 seconds later into the tag icon. I had to click on that icon to get the popup with the shopping details.
Opening documents in some weird "reading mode", popping up that I can pick up where I left off every time I open a PowerPoint, adding captions to my photos I add to documents (and sending my confidential data to their servers so their ML can tell me that a chart I added is a picture of a chart), "looks like you're trying to write a resume", I'll denote my three points (a), (b), and ©, how would you rate our product, etc etc.
Some people may want this stuff, I want my computer to leave me alone and let me work. MS has a pattern of disrespect to the user that overall I agree is insulting.
I loathe MS Edge. In spite of explicitly setting my default file associations to my preferred applications, every other day Windows insists on resetting PDF, JPG etc. to Edge. Va te faire foutre.
And getting griped at by Windows for doing it, too.
"Oh won't you pleeeeeeease consider using the Strongest, Securest, Bestest, Most Wonderfulest Browser Out There, the amazing Microsoft Edge instead of whatever piece of shit blob of code you downloaded from the very untrustworthy dark Interweb?!?"
No, Windows browser team, I want to use Firefox and just like Google pushing their browser on their platform I resent you pushing yours.
>Strongest, Securest, Bestest,
Strongest because it's Chromium
"Securest" once they disable JIT
"breaks the entire web" is really an exaggeration from the Google-propaganda-pushers. You don't all the extra crap like JS when you're just looking at static pages. A lot of sites are fine without. This site doesn't need JS either.
My work computer resets my preferences after each reboot (which I only do when system updates come down). Otherwise, it sticks. Personal computer keeps my defaults.
I was under the impression that Windows somehow challenges apps by performing some type of test, and resets the file associations "for the user's safety" if the apps don't respond appropriately.
Some like it; some don't; few believe they have a choice to be anything other than a consumer.
The discourse around privacy and tracking isn’t particularly relevant here and it certainly isn’t front of mind for your average person.
Lets be honest to follow best practice on security/privacy is a constant schlep of tweaking options and compromising on functionality. Then to have a base tool just throw in your face that "We've added a feature and even though you've got 'send do not track' ticked this is not at all the same so we'll turn it on by default". Yeah I understand the need to vent especially if he chose IE as a minor way to get away from google tracking[1].
I mean, sure, we probably won't ever reach verification mountain dew, but that meme first came about in 2012 and not surprisingly we've slid closer and closer to that in the mean time. People have had years of getting sicker and sicker of the slow visible decline.
[1] After seeing the comments about who the author is it's more likely he defaults to Microsoft products.
Pay 1 dollar less today. Pay 10 dollars more in the future on everything, the second the smaller local store goes out of business.
At this rate why even bother with the pretext or capitalism. As long as price dumping is tolerated those with the most wealth can buy a monopoly.
If you choose the largest and cheapest vendor for something you are failing yourself, your friends and family and your neighbours.
If you let Microsoft do this, you might as well get on your knees and kiss the feet of Jeff Bezos. One company should be enough for everyone.
And then we don't need this feature anymore either, because there will be no choice. We won't even need advertising anymore.
Ie Say I'm trying to buy specifically from an LGBT friendly site, oop but it's cheaper over at this other place that also sponsors several anti-LGBT politicos, so the suggestion is useless because price isn't everything, it just is most of the time.
Browsers are probably one of the worst offenders. Edge is not far from Chrome, and although Firefox is probably the sanest, it also has a disturbingly small marketshare and seems to be going down the same path.
When I use "modern" software, I don't feel like a user; I feel like I'm being used.
And frame every opt-out choice as "YES I LOVE THIS AND WANT IT TURNED ON FOREVER AND EVER AND NEVER SHOW ME THIS PROMPT EVER AGAIN" versus "sigh fine I guess I don't want it FOR NOW but please make certain to ask me about it nine more times a day for the rest of infinity."
Even the "good" apps like Signal do this.
"Sync your contacts?"
Not now.
"OK we'll ask again later."
Contrast that to Microsofts constant badgering, reset preferences after every update (conveniently), etc etc.
I use edge for work stuff
I keep chrome use for gmail and personal projects only. Very limited use cases
Ff for general browsing, on full privacy mode and js blocked. This breaks most work sites so i cant use ff for work.
Opera for slack and some saas access.
Also using vivaldi and brave for things like proton, banking websites, linkedin. Everything is contained.