I understand that Apple isn’t directly responsible for this policy and a contracted firm is primarily responsible. However, this press couldn’t have came at a worse time when Apple is also facing negative PR resulting from their announcement of expanded protections for children.
For what it's worth, Apple is a very deliberate company with immense control over their supply chain. Surveillance could very well be their internal MO, we have no way to hold them accountable in that regard. Considering how they want to generate low-resolution hashes of your content on-device before it's shipped off to their servers... yeah, I can see the two aligning. It's part of a larger, internal push to increase liability and weed out "bad actors"
Agreed, we should stop ceding the language we use to describe this betrayal of trust to Apple’s idiot marketing division. These aren’t child safety features. By the time CSAM has been produced the child has already been harmed. Also pedophiles, may they be tortured barbarically and may their barbaric torture be televised by mandate on all those little TV screens that squawk at us while we’re getting gas until every last one of them is too scared to ever go near another child again, will simply turn off iCloud photos, or iCloud, or whatever 3rd parties Apple will let in on the surveillance.
This will not help keep a single child safe. It’s not a child safety feature, it’s an adult surveillance feature.
> will simply turn off iCloud photos, or iCloud, or whatever 3rd parties Apple will let in on the surveillance
I mean apparently they're already uploading photos to Facebook of all places and getting caught there, so you may be overestimating how smart they are.
Normally the conflation isn't a big deal, but if you're going to be that vitriolic, I'm going to please ask you to say "child abuser" and not "pedophile". What pedophiles need is therapy and possibly monitoring.
It's at least similar. Gay conversion aims for 3 things as far as I can tell:
1) Stop acting on your current sexual feelings
2) Stop having those feelings
3) Start feeling different sexual feelings somehow, but probably not
At the very least the first step is the same, and equally unlikely to happen. I don't know what the current status is with castration or chemical castration for pedophiles but I wholeheartedly support it. I don't really care if they get the help they need, I don't care about them or their dignity or humanity at all. I only care that they don't rape children.
> At the very least the first step is the same, and equally unlikely to happen.
Well there's different kinds of "acting on". "Don't have consensual sex with another gay person" is a hard sell. "Don't rape anyone" gets pretty good support from everyone. Rape is a lot more about power than it is about attraction, and it's not that easy to figure out who would go there.
That's a good point, I dunno, maybe you're right and I just get carried away when I think about this stuff, it's all just so disgusting. I see what you mean, the difference between pedophile and child abuser.
The telescreens from 1984 have arrived! Just like in the Apple commercial.
Be aware that Albania is currently not a EU member [0], so none of the EU privacy laws apply (although per the linked NBC article, this proposal is illegal in Albania too [1], so I don't know what that company thinks they're doing).
BTW, this is technically a dupe from two days ago [2].
That’s why Brave New World is a much stronger prediction. People don’t want the State to take their Freedoms because that’s not American.
But when a Lucury&Socialization brand comes and promises to make your life Better for the low price of your excess brainwaves… lovely! Sign me up for soma that.
I hate when someone says „BNW is actually a better prediction“ (you also never hear it the other way around). Both works are pretty much orthogonal e.g. we can have the NSA spying on citizens AND the hedonistic complacency from BNW simultaneously.
Your argument is identical to: “I hate when people project matrices onto lower dimensions; do they not see how that loses information? People should only ever deal with matrices in their original form, that way no data is ever destroyed. If the analysis cannot make use of the matrix in its original form, then it shouldn’t happen at all”
I disgree, to be honest. There are readings of science fiction that simplify themes and ideas don’t miss the point as thoroughly as does a predictive one does.
This article mentioned the call center employees work out of Bogota, Colombia. According to routers the current unemployment rate is over 17% there. It may not be so easy for them.
Sure, that's an option, but then the next person will still have to deal with it. And you can do that but while making arrangements why not make some noise about it too? Maybe things will change, maybe they won't, but if you're already one foot out the door, "what can they do, fire me?"
Because when this happens en masse, they won't have enough "next person" to get work done, so they raise wages. That's how a market works (see: low wage jobs in the US now).
So they start giving out meaningless gewgaws to get people to apply ("free iPhone 12 Pro Max on hiring!") instead of actually paying living wages and benefits
how long does one need to work there before being fully vested and not required to give the phone back? 1 week? 1 month? 1 year? 2 years (like a phone contract)?
I might go work for burger king for a day for a new phone as long as I got to keep it after that day. Any longer than that would be a nope.
Comments such as these display such a lack of empathy but yet they seem extremely prevalent on HN. What is it about some of the people who make up this community that makes them think life is as easy as simply choosing a better alternative to the current state?
It’s like telling a depressed person to just stop being sad. Life doesn’t work like that.
Certain people can’t imagine what it’s like to really need a job because they’ve never experienced it or known anyone who has. Its privilege mixed with very narrow life experiences and social circles.
Tech people in my experience are highly susceptible to survivorship bias combined with a level of delusional Randian optimism to gird themselves against the truth that they are pawns in a sadistic machine.
In the ideal world, this is always a valid suggestion, but, sadly, we're not in one. It only really works in unsaturated job markets (when everyone can get a job), preferably with high learning curves (so threatening to leave can become a leverage by itself). Phone support is not one of those blessed markets.
Teleperformance is one of the worst companies I’ve ever come to know.
Besides paying terribly (think less than 2 USD/hr), they’ve stole wages by way of metric manipulation, denied vacation entitlements, restricted the amount of bathroom breaks, forced 10-13 hr days where you get 2 hours of lunch break (yay but actually they just don’t need you for that time but you’re stuck at work), trying to force people into wfh… you get the picture.
It makes you appreciate first world employment comforts because this is a company that will happily take any advantage it can.
The law can count for subsidiaries and contractors too. No number of layers of corporate shell can stop the workers who need to say "You've reached Apple support, how can I assist you?".
Generally the principle is that we should do this “Because additional flexibility with how small businesses are run allows them a greater chance to grow to become bigger businesses. “ but other than that… it’s also just the normal thing in many countries that certain regulations only kick in once your business grows to a certain size. I can thing if several USA and Australian laws like this.
Companies like this that depend on large MNC fixed contracts have limited capacity to grow or innovate. They provide a basic service at a fixed annual fee. So they grow by cutting from their employees.
Remember a similar situation in India when employees went berserk, rightfully so.
I'd be awry of a Korean conglomerate buying an advanced robotics company after what happened to Samsung TVs that watch you while you're watching. Seems like privacy protection laws are toothless in Korea.
Is this called Proctoring? My son went to college and because of COVID they had his math class online. In order to take a test he needed a web camera to watch him and he had to show the room he was in was empty and they assigned a person to proctor him during the test to make sure he wasn't cheating.
Now they are doing this with remote workers but using AI instead of people?
Everyone seems to have missed that Apple specifically ban contractors like Teleperformance from doing this.
[include]
Apple spokesperson Nick Leahy said that the company “prohibits the use of video or photographic monitoring by our suppliers and have confirmed Teleperformance does not use video monitoring for any of their teams working with Apple.” Leahy said that Apple had audited Teleperformance in Colombia this year and did not find any “core violations of our strict standards.”
This is from my own experience working at a TP call center, for a major tech client and not in Albania or Colombia.
External and internal audits are known for weeks in advance such that they could put a facade on in time. During audits you suddenly don't have a limit on bathroom break time (generally an alert would come at 15mins per day) and there would be pizza at the office every other day. Only 'loyal' employees would be chosen to any interviews/meetings about culture etc.
This title is misleading at best - Apple call centre workers may fear AI-powered surveillance cameras, however Apple is not doing this, nor is the subcontractor on the Apple contract, as Apple has explicitly banned their subcontractors from doing this.
Just to be clear, each contract that Teleperformance has opperates with differerent rules and pay scale / entitlements etc.
If you were working one of their other contracts, you may not even be in the same building as the others.
So the Apple ai camera thing is probably specific to Apple as I know a few people who work there in Colombia and don't have cameras when they work from home.
It’s the opposite which is why the title is misleading - the “Apple ai camera thing” is happening on other Teleperformance contracts but not Apple.
The idea that there is an “Apple ai camera thing” is just the implication from the (misleading) title but it doesn’t exist.
From the article:
> Apple spokesperson Nick Leahy said that the company “prohibits the use of video or photographic monitoring by our suppliers and have confirmed Teleperformance does not use video monitoring for any of their teams working with Apple.”
The article also never makes the claim that the cameras are observing people doing work on an Apple contract - it says that it is Teleperformance who ‘has contracts with Apple’, but not that this is used on the Apple contract.
We're not reading the same article bud. It clearly states this is the Apple account and that Apple UK had the same issues with their Albanian branch.
> a Bogota-based worker on the Apple account ... said that she signed the contract ...because she feared losing her job.
> the new contract, first issued in March. The contract allows monitoring by AI-powered cameras in workers’ homes, voice analytics and storage of data collected from the worker’s family members, including minors
> the contract, a copy of which NBC News has reviewed
You think NBC are gona headline an article risking defamation when they have a contract that would or would not state if this is a legitimate proposal???
“ Apple outsources some of its call center work around the world to Teleperformance, and employees say they are being pressured to sign a contract agreeing to the cameras, despite an Apple policy prohibiting it”
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[ 3.2 ms ] story [ 145 ms ] threadThis will not help keep a single child safe. It’s not a child safety feature, it’s an adult surveillance feature.
I mean apparently they're already uploading photos to Facebook of all places and getting caught there, so you may be overestimating how smart they are.
1) Stop acting on your current sexual feelings
2) Stop having those feelings
3) Start feeling different sexual feelings somehow, but probably not
At the very least the first step is the same, and equally unlikely to happen. I don't know what the current status is with castration or chemical castration for pedophiles but I wholeheartedly support it. I don't really care if they get the help they need, I don't care about them or their dignity or humanity at all. I only care that they don't rape children.
Well there's different kinds of "acting on". "Don't have consensual sex with another gay person" is a hard sell. "Don't rape anyone" gets pretty good support from everyone. Rape is a lot more about power than it is about attraction, and it's not that easy to figure out who would go there.
Be aware that Albania is currently not a EU member [0], so none of the EU privacy laws apply (although per the linked NBC article, this proposal is illegal in Albania too [1], so I don't know what that company thinks they're doing).
BTW, this is technically a dupe from two days ago [2].
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accession_of_Albania_to_the_Eu...
[1] https://www.idp.al/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/Rekomandim_nr_... (Albanian-language pdf)
[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28113304 ("Big Tech call center workers face pressure to accept home surveillance")
It didn't take big brother. People willingly lap it up.
The ecosystem that works together turned into an inescapable dragnet.
That's the cost of letting the giants grow so big.
But when a Lucury&Socialization brand comes and promises to make your life Better for the low price of your excess brainwaves… lovely! Sign me up for soma that.
Examining science fiction through the lens of prediction is so reductive and flattens the whole experience of reading, in my view.
Agreed, but I fear we get the best from both worlds.
Source: https://www.reuters.com/article/colombia-employment-idUSL2N2...
The market will always sort it out!
I might go work for burger king for a day for a new phone as long as I got to keep it after that day. Any longer than that would be a nope.
It’s like telling a depressed person to just stop being sad. Life doesn’t work like that.
tl;dr ~30% of people are mean-spirited, 20% are win-win types, 20% are risk minimizers, 15% are marks and the other 15% are confused.
It makes you appreciate first world employment comforts because this is a company that will happily take any advantage it can.
Only large companies. Small companies would be exempt. I despise most regulations, but wouldn't mind regulating big companies a bit more.
I am in fear for my loved ones. I am hiding under my blanket.
“Gee, I wonder how the world became so dehumanized?”
Remember a similar situation in India when employees went berserk, rightfully so.
Plot of I, Robot foiled for a few more years...
Now they are doing this with remote workers but using AI instead of people?
[include] Apple spokesperson Nick Leahy said that the company “prohibits the use of video or photographic monitoring by our suppliers and have confirmed Teleperformance does not use video monitoring for any of their teams working with Apple.” Leahy said that Apple had audited Teleperformance in Colombia this year and did not find any “core violations of our strict standards.”
External and internal audits are known for weeks in advance such that they could put a facade on in time. During audits you suddenly don't have a limit on bathroom break time (generally an alert would come at 15mins per day) and there would be pizza at the office every other day. Only 'loyal' employees would be chosen to any interviews/meetings about culture etc.
If you were working one of their other contracts, you may not even be in the same building as the others.
So the Apple ai camera thing is probably specific to Apple as I know a few people who work there in Colombia and don't have cameras when they work from home.
The idea that there is an “Apple ai camera thing” is just the implication from the (misleading) title but it doesn’t exist.
From the article:
> Apple spokesperson Nick Leahy said that the company “prohibits the use of video or photographic monitoring by our suppliers and have confirmed Teleperformance does not use video monitoring for any of their teams working with Apple.”
The article also never makes the claim that the cameras are observing people doing work on an Apple contract - it says that it is Teleperformance who ‘has contracts with Apple’, but not that this is used on the Apple contract.
> a Bogota-based worker on the Apple account ... said that she signed the contract ...because she feared losing her job.
> the new contract, first issued in March. The contract allows monitoring by AI-powered cameras in workers’ homes, voice analytics and storage of data collected from the worker’s family members, including minors
> the contract, a copy of which NBC News has reviewed
You think NBC are gona headline an article risking defamation when they have a contract that would or would not state if this is a legitimate proposal???
Your comment reads like a complete misdirection.