Launch HN: SigmaOS (YC S21) – A MacOS web browser designed for faster work
If you’re anything like us, you work hours a day on the web, buried in a sea of tabs and web apps, constantly losing context and always one click away from being distracted. We believe that a radically different UX can help with this and that’s what we’re making. Here’s a demo video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ae_XfTSsaAA.
This project is the overlap of our obsessions. I have always been obsessed with organizing because of my ADHD, and became a power user of software that could organize and clean up my workflow, like Superhuman and Notion. I was frustrated by how cluttered my desktop was with irrelevant Safari windows and tabs that I didn't need for my work right then. Also, I always felt overwhelmed by the constant switching of windows and apps to save information I was finding or send stuff to people I was working with. This led to the idea: what if there could be a much more organized browser, and you could easily access any app or tab or note directly from within the browser without needing to change to a different window?
Ali has always been into neo-browsers. Rockmelt (released when he was 11) was the first piece of software he deeply cared about and referred his friends to. Since Rockmelt's shutdown, multiple different neo-browsers came out, but none were as mind-blowing to him. He is also a power user of Photoshop and loves their single-key keyboard shortcuts. Saurav rarely cares about software but is a massive Vim fan. He is obsessed with how fast and powerful Vim makes him at text-editing. So, if you think Rockmelt crossed with Notion crossed with Vim, that’s basically what we’re working on :)
SigmaOS users create workspaces that hold apps and pages related to a project or task. We present those apps and pages in a list format. Users have 3 main actions to go through tasks quickly: they can mark a page as done, snooze a page when they don't need it right away, and move a page once it is no longer required for that task but maybe for some other one.
We help solve the problem of information loss and overload with our search tool called Lazy Search. You can quickly find pages in your history and already-open pages across workspaces. This makes it easier to find anything you have opened or searched before and navigate to it quickly.
We have a split-screen feature to quickly open a second webpage, for example for a quick new search you want to do or multitask by working on two pages at a time. This cuts down on opening unnecessary tabs and navigating away from what you are focused on.
One of the most straightforward but also most powerful aspects of SigmaOS that we’ve put a ton of thought into, is an intuitive and easy-to-learn repertoire of keyboard shortcuts for all the most-used commands and actions. This makes you a lot faster at your work on the web and feels like the other tools (cf. Vim above) that you’re traditionally productive in.
SigmaOS connects your web apps and your browsing activity to understand the context around your actions and searches. Your information is organized by projects, your work is shareable and collaborative, and information retrieval feels effortless. We charge $15 per month, no ads, and no data monetization.
Thanks for taking the time to read our post. We appreciate any and all feedback on what you think is the best thing about SigmaOS and what might not be so great. Please download SigmaOS from our website and give it a try yourself and let us know what you think here :)
335 comments
[ 7.6 ms ] story [ 258 ms ] threadhttps://stackoverflow.blog/2017/05/23/stack-overflow-helping...
We're working hard to make sure users don't feel punished when switching to SigmaOS, and only feeling faster from there. Part of the inspiration is from Vim, but that doesn't mean we aren't learning from its mistakes :)
Hence, uBlock Origin + cosmetic filter list. The productivity boost is more than any keyboard assignment can ever do I guess.
Currently there is no way to block YouTube ads on Safari MacOS and all the advice for extensions that do just sends you in a loop of the same few (many of which are paid for) that don't manage to do it for the past few months.
Also, most other OSes have native splitting of windows.
Windows port will be a problem for future me, both fortunately and unfortunately.
Being a paid product gives me exactly one guarantee: that I will be that much poorer. It doesn't increase my trust in the product in any way, it doesn't say anything about what the product is doing for my privacy or security.
This is a very poor marketing piece.
> Wondering why browsers are usually free?
Let's say I am. Care to answer the question rather than passive-aggressively hurting my choice of browser?
I can only tell you that your session data is yours alone, and that we will never monetise our users' data.
Free browsers typically make their money from search engine royalties.
Users will only pay us if they think the value we're giving them is worth it, and that will keep us developing the product towards what users will benefit from, faster than traditional browsers.
Plus no discussion on ad blocking extensions or password management?
If this is a browser that is launching on Apple’s ecosystem while charging $$, then you have to swing harder than just vaguely insinuating that other companies are sellouts on privacy.
And is there any plan to open source so that communities can actually vet anything?
This is already telling; you're admitting that you gather user's data. Is there a clear consent form for that in place? Does your application and your company's data handling conform to GDPR rules?
But if you want to sync your data across devices, you’d have to upload your data (though we’re trying to move to iCloud for this so we don’t have to keep it).
Our privacy policy is available on our website and on the app before you login/signup, and we make sure to handle the data according to GDPR rules (though parts of GDPR are a bit lax, so I’d like to say better), considering it’s illegal not to :P
How about the sync generating a file where you want it to, and you can sync that file using your current cloud storage solution? Would that work for you?
Please name names and map them to that.
I know that Chrome is owned by Google. I also know that Firefox makes money from Google for having it as the default search engine. I configure my browser to use DDG. How is your product any better in terms of preserving my data?
If open-source is what instills trust, then Chromium would be the most trusted browser. Instead, in practice, we should look at actual 'phoning home' habits and browser's business model to tell us what it real agenda is.
Luckily we do need source code at all to check if any browser is sending data anywhere. A simple network proxy will do and is much easier and more accurate than supposedly going through millions(?) lines of code.
In case of SigmaOS, at least the business model is more likely to not create privacy-related friction. I haven't checked it with network proxy, but somebody pointed out that crash logs are automatically sent to Microsoft which is not a good sign. Those are the things I would focus on.
What's the market share for this one ?
In fact I even have a Mac but it's High Sierra and I'm not updating to Big Sur with all the questionable changes just to try a new browser.
Hopefully you give it a try when you update eventually :)
May I, however, ask if there is a serious reason to require Big Sur instead of supporting Catalina, Mojave and High Sierra also? I understand you probably don't want to waste resources on actually supporting them but perhaps you could just build against them and let users use it on their own risk?
I'll have to look into it again to see if I can go back just a bit maybe and assess how much time it would take to support those versions.
We're a pretty small team :)
Thanks!
Being able to split my tabs into individual workspaces means I can finally find the website that I was previously reading.
They seem to push an update almost every week or so with new features and bug fixes.
Really impressed and would definitely recommend trying it out.
We definitely want to support Windows and Linux eventually, but for now we're focusing on MacOS.
I'd prefer 50$ one time if possible. The other issue is I simply don't know y'all. You could be keylogging everything for all I know.
Even now I tend to use Chrome for secure browsing and Brave for AdBlocked browsing
We don't use keyloggers. We don't sell your data.
If we did, it would be a breach of our privacy policy and you could sue us, right? (Don't know if I should be suggesting you sue us, but since you won't have a reason to, think we're safe :p)
This is the strongest, most credible privacy guarantee, imo. Ask your lawyer to make you as ridiculously vulnerable as possible, perhaps with a small “good faith error” clause.
When you get big, you will turn evil. Bind the company now, and it will remain trustworthy for many more years.
> We are contractually forbidden from doing this, and if we do, you're entitled to [insert compensation plan that would cripple the company, without a private equity-style (or other) takeover being able to game it for profit] – on top of any legal obligations.
then they'll probably sing your praises… if they believe you. So maybe publish a blog post or something about how you bullet-proofed the commitment (with lots of details)? Added bonus: I'd learn how you managed it, because it's too hard a legal problem for my amateur mind to solve.
Hey, if we figure out how to do that, I'll make a post outlining how to do it for others as well :)
Make it a one-time payment and I'd think about it. Subware is not something I support.
I'm sure there are folks who are willing to pay that kind of money for this experience, I'm just not one of them.
I hope those folks are aware that Vivaldi gives them the same experience for free.
I believe Windows Pro license is a one time fee, so SigmaOS is more expensive than Windows
Likewise, there's nothing inherent to browsers that mean they always need to be free, just because the dominant ones currently are.
Now, that said, I don't think this product is worth anywhere near $15/mo to me, but maybe that'll change over time. A browser that actually makes me significantly faster at my work vs chrome/etc could easily be worth that much to me.
$10/month for Spotify because it's easier than maintaining my own music library and syncing it across devices.
$10/month for Lightroom and Photoshop because it's vastly better than its competition
I just don't see how this is /that/ much better than the competition (Firefox + extensions) or makes my life easier in any significant way.
At current prices, for $15/month you need to provide some serious value because most people will do the direct comparison to other subscriptions they are familiar with.
I'm wondering about workspaces. It feels like a thing that sounds like a good idea but then in practice isn't used much. My browsing is mostly chaotic and I don't really wanna spend time neatly organizing everything. Wondering what your experience with it has been. Good luck with everything!
I actually have 4 or 5 work-related workspaces (different features I might be working on, one for Kanban board), I have two for personal (1 for DnD, 1 for Youtube videos), and most of my other browsing is quite ephemeral, so the page is closed pretty quickly after opening.
We also want to implement rules for workspaces, so for example you can set certain domains to always open in specific workspaces.
Try it out and let us know what you think and if it helps you!
- Extensions - Adblock - No support for CMD+W (?)
We're working on extensions and Adblock right now, so should be out soon!
For CMD-W, we're trying to change how you think about pages to something you "mark as done" as opposed to just "close", and changing the shortcut helps make that change for users.
Try it out and let me know if you think it's necessary to support CMD-W :)
Do you find that your decision to use WebKit is getting in your way here?
As it happens, my company is also working on a browser for a niche userbase (not competing with you!), and I decided to go with Electron rather than Microsoft's WebView2 because it seemed to me that that option would give us more flexibility to deeply customize both the chrome and the content. Our target user base is mostly on Windows, not Mac, so Apple WebKit wasn't on the table for us.
I think WebKit helped a lot initially getting everything running. Not having access to extensions and other limitations imposed by Apple is a bit of a bummer (which I'm working around), but I think it's been much better than using Chromium/Electron still (especially on performance!)
edit: implementing Chrome extension API. All Chrome extensions will be available :)
Please don't force users to un-learn years of what they already know. It doesn't matter if you call it "closing" a page or "marking it as done" but _please_ make well-known keyboard shortcuts do roughly what a user would expect.
We're testing out a classic mode at the moment that allows your current shortcuts to work as well :)
Everyone expects a very specific thing, make the current thing go away. Its the same reason you likely picked CMD-k as the shortcut to your pop up window. That's what Slack does along with several other applications.
If you want to map this shortcut to your implementation of "going away" that's fine but it should be the same command.
Right now, it shows a message on the bottom-left asking if you meant to close a page and suggesting "D" as the shortcut instead.
I think adding a classic mode with those shortcuts enabled should solve the issue. What do you think?
I've experienced the likely same outcome with Vimium and 'x'
I suspect you will want to have modifier keys be the default. Something to ask users rather than forcing them to adopt to what you think is best
Right now, if you accidentally close a page, you can quickly "Z" (or click the undo button that shows up) to bring the page back.
This closes the tab, and on restore, the partial input is lost. Had this hit me more than once on Confluence
We think apps like Superhuman have brought the idea of single-key shortcuts into the forefront, and we really like how much more memorable they are for most users.
We'll definitely learn from our users' feedback though, and we'll work on a solution with them if they have issues with it :)
Without personal discipline, niether of them solve my real problem of tab diahria as I go down 6 nested rabbit holes trying to solve multiple problems, some which do get solved, and some need exploring later, some which need to be archived.
Please, for the love of God ditch messaging. I don't need 1 more place to get a message from someone. If they are too lazy to copy pasta a link, I don't need to see it.
Give it a go and tell me if it improved your flow or not.
I get you on the whole messaging aspect, though I personally find it so useful for work. Ali and Mahyad can just send me pages without having to pollute Slack with a bunch of links.
If this makes employees save 30 minutes per month, it's worth it for the company.
Speaking of browser-related productivity, I recently learned about this very useful Chrome shortcut that allows you to search among your open tabs: ctrl-shift-A (windows), command-shift-A (macOS)
Doubtful, individual signups and education discounts show otherwise.
Even as a company I'd be reluctant to purchase this.
Can the team benefits be realized in a poly-browser environment?
Suggestion -> Make the basics free, add the collaboration features as an addon.
For me, hard to justify $15 for a relativity feature-lite browser. You would need a stronger value proposition.
I think most of these features can be reproduced for free on any other browser. Split view is neat but I do that already with chrome and spectacle, both free.
I feel fast when I'm using SigmaOS. And we hope our users do too.
We'll be adding features that our users need as we go forward. VPN would definitely be great.
While you're here, anything else you think would be cool?
Presumably i[Pad]OS is on the roadmap?
Tab groups are there, sync of them too, keyboard operation too, sharing as well (your improved sharing does only seem to work when both the sender and receiver have your browser, so for a niche tool, it probably won't be useful that often).
Which would mean, based on your landing page, that I'd be paying 15$ per month for split-screen.
Don't get me wrong, I think innovating on the browser and trying to find new paths, different to those that have been treaded for years is great! 15$/mo is also ok for a big value-add. But I don't see much innovation here that's not also in the status quo.
Please show me what I'm missing though, as I probably don't have the full picture.
Here’s my take on tab groups (Safari) vs workspaces (SigmaOS): they seem similar, but they feel very different.
e.g.
• you don’t always see all your tab groups = no behaviour change, people will still pile up tabs they don’t need. Think of Slack: when you’re done with a workspace, you delete it. But if you’re done with a tab group, you just leave it there to clutter your browser, like many people do with Bookmarks.
• you don’t need to work from tab groups = most people won’t organise their work, and still feel overwhelmed
We’re trying to rethink the UX of how to work on browsers. It’s not just about the indidividual features. So what are you missing?
• Every page / web-app is like a task on a to-do list. You can mark it as done, snooze it for later, or move it to another workspace
• SigmaOS' keyboard shortcut system is designed to make you feel fast and still allows you to use shortcuts on web-apps
• When you do research and command-click on pages, they open as "sub-pages" showing you where you come from
• You can rename your pages to organize yourself and find them faster
• Split screen is really awesome for multitasking (but you knew that) :)
All in all, it can be difficult to explain how different it is, without trying it out. It would be great if you could try it out and give us feedback :) Really curious what you think!
I use that a lot for the same use-case as the "sub pages" here: drag a tab into its own window, then command-click to my heart's content. When I'm done, the whole window gets closed. (Also this is without even using tab groups)
And Apple's Handoff already does the work of maintaining a seamless browsing experience between devices.
I do wish you luck and hope you find some true value differentiators.
To the OP: I will say that seeing the tree of how I got to the current page sounds interesting if I'm researching something. However, the vast majority of my browsing is just that – browsing. I'm not usually researching something. (So maybe I'm not the target audience?)
> You can rename your pages to organize yourself and find them faster
Yeah, I don't want a tool that makes me do more work. I'm never going to rename my pages, just like I'm not going to tag all of my photos or emails or files so that the Find function can be more efficient. I just don't have time for that. If there's no way to automate it, then I don't need that feature.
Also, just want to say that your logo looks an awful lot like Apple's SiriShortcuts app logo. Might be worth changing it up.
- What is a neo-browser?
Also "neo-browser" is a dumb term. This is just a browser. Slightly different than others, but fundamentally it's a tool for viewing web pages.
The second thought was if this was some kind of a Motorola spin-off.
Hopefully you'll be able to upgrade to try it out :)
… and now I have to dig up this login link? really testing my patience here…
Regarding the login flow, would you use Google Sign-In if we had it?
Have you signed up? If you have and it's still not working, email me at saurav@sigmaos.com with the email address you used, and I can look into it.
I think you've just got too many "okay next" steps. Also, is account activation really necessary? Couldn't I just start using the app immediately and activate within X days?
It's true that the signup could be simpler but then I'd worry in the case that someone uses someone else's email, that the real owner of the email when logging in would get access to the original user's session if they chose to sync.
Maybe we could have a more complex solution given some time. Any ideas?
I know it sounds like the famous Dropbox rebuttal comment, and I'm obviously not the target demographic, but I'm puzzled :)