Launch HN: Fella (YC W20) – Tackling men's obesity using medication and coaching

190 points by rich-cartwright ↗ HN
Hey HN! I'm Richie from Fella (https://www.joinfella.com), a telehealth clinic for men with obesity. Fella helps men get to a healthier weight by matching them with a board-certified obesity doctor to prescribe an FDA-approved medication, while they undertake personalized health coaching.

I personally struggled with stress eating for 6 years. During that time, I was at Cambridge University, then built and sold my first company working with the UK government. It was tough, and poor eating habits as a teenager became a coping mechanism as an adult.

Fella first started as a "CBT+community" product to help men battling stress eating. It resonated due to the stigma around men's eating struggles. But we realized we were only half-serving most of our customers: even when no longer stress eating, most guys weren't getting to a healthier weight.

So we started researching effective, evidence-based treatments for obesity. When I say "we", I really mean my co-founder Luke. He studied medicine at Cambridge University, developing a patented AI approach to detecting cancer at a YC bio company, before moving to Microsoft Research. He parses bio papers better than me...

Obesity treatment is about to radically change. This is thanks to a breakthrough medication — NY Times called it a "game changer" in Feb 2021 [1]. The medication was approved by the FDA in June 2021 [2]. It leads to an average 15% decrease in body weight, efficacy close to bariatric surgery [3]. However, medication-assisted treatment for obesity is still stigmatized by family doctors and therefore hard to access.

Moreover, only 10% of those using weight management services are men, despite men representing 50% of those with obesity. This is because almost all programs market to women, placing too much emphasis on looks and not enough on health for a male audience. Stress eating is widespread among bigger guys, but mostly ignored — with too much focus on willpower and "eat less, move more". This needs to change.

So we pivoted to the Fella you see today: a telehealth experience with a board-certified obesity doctor for FDA-approved medication, combined with personalized health coaching. We went live in Texas in July, and are soon to be live in California and New York. Fella is a 12-month program and costs $149/month, paid quarterly. We’ll bring costs down over time to improve accessibility.

We still have lots of difficulties ahead. The main one could be insurance reimbursement: the latest wave of medications are expensive and insurers don't like to cover them [4].

We’re excited to hear your ideas, questions, concerns, feedback — and maybe any personal stories. I’ll be responding to comments all day, or feel free to shoot me an email at richie@joinfella.com.

[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/10/health/obesity-weight-los...

[2] https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-appr...

[3] https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2032183

[4] https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2021-07-19/weight...

317 comments

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Only available in Texas currently. When's the nationwide rollout? Any more precise than "soon"?
It's tough with the state-by-state regulation. CA & NY are in the coming month or two. Then the plan is the next 5-10 states by end of Q1 2022. We'll be sprinting to go fully nationwide by end of 2022.
Is this just because of the prescription drug element of your program? If there weren't any medications involved, would you need any state certifications?
Yep exactly - the prescription drug element requires state-by-state medicine licenses.
Not affiliated, but I believe with every telemedicine company, the care providers need a medical license in each and every state they have patients in. So it will likely be a long time before they have “nationwide” coverage. This is why many telemedicine startups are only in a select handful of states.
Looks like you're using a common and old Diabetes medication to control glucose, changing the regulation of appetite? I'm curious why this works best for men? Does it work in women?
Yep GLP-1 RAs are the gold-standard, if insurance coverage permits (because they are expensive if you have to pay out-of-pocket). The effect is roughly equal in men & women. The big breakthrough was the latest GLP-1 RA called Semaglutide, FDA approved in 2017 for diabetes and June 2021 for weight management. The main paper for that is here if you're interested:

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2032183

Congratulations on the launch fella team!

What would you say the biggest learning is you’ve had since starting this journey?

Thanks Matt!

Few things:

1. As we said in the post, men represent only ~10% of those using weight management services in the US, despite representing ~50% of those with obesity. Pretty fascinating to reflect on the reasons why.

2. There are only ~5000 board-certified obesity doctors in the US, roughly one for every 70000 Americans.

3. Binge Eating Disorder is the most common eating disorder, and has above 20% clinical prevalence in those above 40 BMI.

Maybe most importantly: the bias towards willpower and the stigma against medical treatment for obesity (medication or surgery) is very real, especially among family doctors. This will change over the coming decade, but it's deeply routed.

This is really interesting as someone who works as part of a group who takes products similar to this to market! Thank you for sharing.

You mentioned the medication is as effective in women as it is in men. While I understand men are underserved in this space and so I respect the decision to focus on that population on that basis, I'm curious if there are business elements to that decision as well? Would you ever expand to serving women, given that they seem to be a larger potential customer pool?

Sweet what's the group you're part of? Sounds interesting.

It's obviously a great question about the focus on men, and something we think a lot about.

My take: the whole industry is focused on women, and there are already cool companies taking a medication approach with branding clearly focused on women: https://www.joincalibrate.com/, https://joinfound.com/, https://www.formhealth.co/

I'm a fan of what these folks are doing. But you speak to any Fellas (our name for our customers!) and they know those programs aren't aimed at them. Every week we hear something like "I'm fed up of being the only guy in the group".

From a business side, the bet we're taking is that if we manage to crack the messaging/framing/branding for the male audience, that's a great business. Plus how men think about their health is drastically changing as concepts of masculinity change, so the potential customer pool is growing rapidly.

In terms of future expansion: we don't know yet. At least not for the coming few years - there are a lot of bigger guys out there we want to help (35 million men have obesity)!

Thanks very much for answering!

Sorry, if I'd had the foresight to use a throwaway I'd drop a link to our group, but I prefer not to publicly associate my HN account with work. We're a small team of software and data engineers, machine learning scientists, and health policy folks at a large research institution in Canada that take on clients to work on stuff like this (from early stage research to approvals to deployment). I'd be happy to reach out with my contact info privately if you're interested, just let me know.

That makes sense! I wondered if it had something to do with the group component, and I agree that the customer pool is growing.

Congratulations on the launch!

Sounds really interesting. Would love to hear from you: my email is richie@joinfella.com
Do you have any options for people in one of those programs to transfer over?
Yep we've actually had that happen already. Happy to help if you'd like.

To reiterate thought: I have nothing against these programs, from the outside they look really solid & I overall really support the direction of treatment.

Do you plan to open in Europe at some point?
100%. We're actually British founders so it's been a baptism of fire learning about the nuances of US healthcare! That said, the US is the focus for the moment, so we're not planning to expand to Europe for quite a while.
What was the reason for going after the US market instead of the UK market?

I'm in the UK and would love to try Fella, especially if I could get it on the NHS with a GP referral.

UK market is tricky for a few reasons. Very centralized decision-making for healthcare funding, and the timelines are too long for a startup to survive. Plus us Brits are definitely more hesitant of medication approaches in general, although that is changing.

Both my parents, my sister and my brother-in-law work in the NHS - so lots of interesting family conversations about this!

> What was the reason for going after the US market instead of the UK market?

Might have something to do with exorbitant amount of money in the US healthcare.

Bigger spend is definitely important. Drug approval, decentralized decision making, consumer norms all also important.
Hi folks, congratulations on the launch.

Are you considering expanding services for other chronic eating disorders? For example, chronic under eating.

Interesting question. We're no longer coming at this from an ED angle - I could & should write a whole blog about this at some point! Quick take: tackling obesity from a wider health angle (metabolic health, psychological health, behavioral health) is more needed than a narrower focus.

A impressive co focused on serious, udner-eating EDs is https://equip.health/ if you're interested

Interesting offering, definitely an important market.

> So we started researching effective, evidence-based treatments for obesity

Fasting has a tremendous amount science supporting it [1], can you articulate why you're pursuing the prescribed semaglutide approach instead?

[1] Fasting: Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S155041311...

Spot on about fasting, and keto has solid evidence as well - https://www.virtahealth.com/ are a great company focused on this.

The issue is we're starting to have a more nuanced understanding of the metabolic resistance people face when they undergo dietary changes - basically the body fights hard against you as you try to lose weight by dieting.

So it's now industry-standard among obesity specialist doctors to see obesity as a "metabolic disease" which, for the vast majority of people, needs a medical approach which doesn't rely on willpower.

What’s the connection between stress eating and metabolic disease?
1. Stress causes the adrenal glands to release a hormone called cortisol, and cortisol increases appetite.

2. When stressed, we look for relief - and for a lot of people that relief comes as food, or the act of eating itself.

Both of these often lead to overeating which is a cause of metabolic disease.

> basically the body fights hard against you as you try to lose weight by dieting.

I used to weigh 310lbs, now I'm 215lbs. All I did was count calories to maintain a deficit and the results were essentially the same as predicted by the math. I was a bit hungry sometimes at first as I adjusted to it but that's really it. Prioritizing protein and fat over carbs helps with that.

What ways does the body tend to fight against people?

Unfortunately there are people like me who don't only feel a bit hungry, when I eat at a deficit there are times where I get so hungry my thoughts are completely consumed by the hunger. The only way for me to successfully lose weight was to have days where I simply eat nothing at all.

Sounds counter-intuitive but after getting over the initial extreme hunger I found that the hunger sensations would diminish into a background noise, of sorts. That and the rules are easy to follow: eat nothing. When I'd eat at a deficit I'd frequently justify to myself that eating a little bit more than I was planning on doing was ok because it was only a little. And then I'd do that several times until I felt completely satiated, defeating the purpose.

The complete fasting approach is pretty common among Fellas I've spoken with. Lot of the guys have powerful "all-or-nothing" traits, where it feels easier to have a strict intense rule than a more nuanced approach.

The issue comes when you therefore become so hungry your body drives you to eat a lot of food all at once. But I'm interested that you notice your hunger sensations actually diminish over time.

Isn't it actually well known that you are not hungry when fasting (after a couple of days)?
Yep I've just been reading up on this now actually: ghrelin & leptin changes after day 2 of a fast.
I will use myself as an example: I have Hashimoto disease, and even treated my metabolism can get so slow that I need to eat so little that I start to have nutrient deficits, for example one of the past dieting attempts resulted in hair loss, brittle nails, cracking skin, because I needed so little calories that when I consumed exactly what I needed, I ended with a protein deficit.

Only solution I found that worked was go for pure weightlifting, literally train as if I was aiming to he an Olympic champion, and even then I still ended overweight (I am 1.75m tall, smallest weight I managed, that was then I was training heavily and had a diet that was almost 100% protein, was 98kg)

That's interesting. That weight isn't necessarily unhealthy if it's largely muscle from all the training. Did you end up with a low body fat percentage despite the weight?
i’m in a similar spot as the OP. lifting helps, but i’m still pretty fat. 5’11” 250lbs. worksets are 355lb squat, 225lb bench, 425lb deadlift, 175lb overhead press. it’s hard to tell i’m strong, but i’m slightly more slender at this weight than i was before lifting. it definitely helps with aches and pains i used to have, primarily back pain.
Those are some tasty numbers.
haha, thanks. happy with the strength, not happy being 250lbs.
Losing weight is essentially a stress on the body, the response of which is to produce a lot of cortisol, which in turn can mess with testosterone and other hormones.

For me the caloric restriction leads to so much cortisol that I can’t really sleep properly no matter how much I try to exhaust myself.

Keto seems to be kinder (in week 3, of trying it for the 3rd time, previous times unsuccessful). But too early to say for sure.

Thanks for pointing out the relationship between caloric restriction and cortisol production. Your statements and anecdotes seem to be well supported by the literature.

> Starvation caused a rise in plasma cortisol [...] but no change in total urinary cortisol metabolites. [1]

> very low calorie diet (VLCD) did not alter plasma cortisol and markedly reduced cortisol metabolite excretion [...]. [1]

> Overall, caloric restriction significantly increased serum cortisol level in 13 studies (357 total participants). Fasting showed a very strong effect in increasing serum cortisol, while VLCD and LCD did not show significant increases. [2]

> The meta-regression analysis showed a negative association between the serum cortisol level and the duration of caloric restriction, indicating serum cortisol is increased in the initial period of caloric restriction but decreased to the baseline level after several weeks. [2]

[1] Influence of short-term dietary weight loss on cortisol secretion and metabolism in obese men https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Alexandra-Johnstone/pub...

[2] Systematic review and meta-analysis reveals acutely elevated plasma cortisol following fasting but not less severe calorie restriction https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.3109/10253890.2015.11...

Anecdotally: I also used to struggle to sleep when I was dieting. My sensation was intense hunger when I was in bed where I couldn't stop thinking about food in the kitchen.
Great to hear you've had success.

[1] is an interesting paper which gives you some hormonal examples. Effectively when you try and lose weight your body responds by increasing the hormones associated with greater satiety and weight regain. And these change may persists for a while — this papers documenting the change lasting past a a year. This will very by person however so if you have something which works for you keep going.

[1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22029981/

Extreme hunger, like others said. I'd class it as a subset of impulsive behavior, which is basically your primitive brain doing it's caveman shit and not listening to you, the conscious mind.

Apparently some people don't have this problem, which makes me incredibly envious (or would if I could feel anything).

It's this nagging thought of "JESUS CHRIST YOU'RE GONNA DIE IF YOU DON'T EAT A LOT RIGHT NOW!"

I've experienced it after hard days at work (construction), multi hour lifting, cycling 50km. Same shit every time. Surprisingly, unlike what my dumbass brain says, I don't die if I eat only a little and just go to sleep.

Counting calories didn't work btw. It actually made it worse as my primitive brain would know it's "starving".

> I've experienced it after hard days at work (construction), multi hour lifting, cycling 50km. Same shit every time. Surprisingly, unlike what my dumbass brain says, I don't die if I eat only a little and just go to sleep.

I too have experienced this sensation my whole life under such situations. In fact, one of my favorite things to do in life is go for a 6-7 mile run, come home and lift weight for an hour or two... then... wait until I'm hungry (usually about 45 min) and eat an insane amount of food. The food tastes 10x better, and the sensation when eating it is pure bliss.

Always have felt great doing that, and I'm really skinny. We clearly don't have any idea why some people can do that, and others cant. It's probably not until we understand that difference that we'll have any sense what metabolically is happening.

As someone whose weight has been all over the place in my life, I really appreciate hearing this. I've known it is true forever, but it is rare to hear other people saying it. There is much more to weight than calories in/out. Some people can skip a meal without noticing, others count the minutes until the next meal. I always flip it on its head. For some reason it is easy for people to understand that certain people would have trouble gaining 20 pounds, others could do it in a month easily. But when you talk about losing 20 pounds, people start talking about willpower.
I've really never thought about that flip before.
I explain it that way to people all the time and they almost all say that.
I was questioned in high school in the 90s whether I had an eating disorder. I just ignore hunger until it goes away... I simply don't want food. I don't like to eat around other people, either. When I do eat, around 2am every day, I've really looked forward to it so it's pleasurable. But as a functional alcoholic I fully understand counting the minutes to something. This where "eating disorder" self control comes into play. I think of myself drunk just like I think of myself fat with a face covered in food in front of other people, and it's been enough to stop me for 20 years from hitting the bottle until work is over. On the subject of self control, everyone is a hero if you can find any at all.
> "eat an insane amount of food. The food tastes 10x better, and the sensation when eating it is pure bliss"

This stuck out for me. Especially interesting that taste & eating sensation are both heightened.

I used to have that problem with sleeping and hunger. For me it just went away eventually.
Interesting. How long is eventually by the way?
It's hard to say, but probably not more than a month. I think I compensated a bit by saving some calories to eat directly before bed, but there was definitely some time of simply powering through it. If the Fella plan makes things like this easier then that sounds pretty cool.
re: powering through, any tactics you used? Or literally just there in bed promising yourself not to move?
Water helped to an extent. I believe at some point I just lied there for a while and didn't give in. Eating just a little but not enough to not have a deficit anymore also helped. I've done this whole thing very slow and steady in general, and I think that helps with consistency.

Someone here or on reddit once had a problem with their mind keeping them up for either hunger or to check their phone or something, and they started doing pushups every time it happened, and some part of the brain learned the association and cut it out. I never did that but it might be worth trying.

Have you heard of Pavlovs Dog, that started salivating when he rang a bell? Normally it's seen as an example of conditioning. But I think it's an illustration of something I noticed in my own life: That the primary cause of hunger feelings is expecting a treat.

When I haven't eaten in a while and know food isn't coming, I don't really feel hungry, I just feel tired.

Interesting to hear!

"hunger" is a simple word for a pretty complex mix of biological, psychological, and environmental factors.

I used to be able to do that in my twenties. Now, in my thirties, it appears I have lost that ability. Cutting my calories seems to causey body to go into a sort of hibernation where it becomes more efficient and conserves more calories.

In other words, my metabolic burn rate at rest and while active seems to go down significantly.

Important that you bring up the age factor. We're doing more research now with our doctors on how best to adjust treatment based specifically on male hormonal changes with age.
This is what's known as an 'anecdote', and is at the crux of the issues surrounding men's weight loss. This approach, and other very obvious and straightforward ones do indeed work perfectly well for a fair fraction of the population, but they perform poorly for another large fraction, and fail abysmally for yet a third.

While there are no doubt plenty of people that could lose weight fairly readily if they gave it some basic effort, most of the people who are actively trying to do so (enough to pay for a service that supports that, for example) are in the second and third categories. And yet every time anyone posts in a non-dedicated forum anything about systems and plans to help that group solve their problems, there are a dozen people like you popping in to tell us "it's not that hard, just give it a try!"

I regularly make 60 mile bike rides, I can jog 10 miles (though I can't walk the next day when I do), I play tennis about 7 hours a week. I weigh 465 pounds. Trust me, I've tried the approach you're describing here. I once managed to hold onto it for 8 months, during which I lost about thirty pounds and then plateaued, while constantly fighting my body. I was sick twice as often as usual, and I had to carefully micromanage my calorie intake to make sure I had available calories for any physical activity I wanted to engage in, all while constantly battling cravings for dozens of foods _I don't even like_.

It would be a simpler world if all of us fat people were just fat because we're lazy, but the truth is that people vary really a lot, physically and metabolically. Your experience of the world is valid, but not universal.

Oh Wow, just wow.

You just explained and expanded on my thoughts and conversations about my ADHD very well.

That's what's known as an anecdote. This is what's known as a counterexample. And one thing is certain: No method has 100% success. To me the more important question isn't what percentage of cases something addresses, but whether it's a self fix where the benefits outweigh the risks. The risks of intermittent fasting are relatively low, and it may have side benefits like prolonged lifespan and slower telomere degradation as shown in animal models. The risks of essentially hacking your own insulin production to upregulate it if you're not diabetic are not nearly as well understood. On an individual basis, whatever gets you to where you're happy is great. Personally I've fasted every day my entire adult life and still have to work to keep weight off. But when someone puts a slick marketing package on fasting or drugs or surgery or anything else, I have to question whether they really have my best interests at heart. And usually the answer is obviously not.
I'm not arguing in favor of any particular approach (in particular the one posed by the original poster, which I have done zero research into). If and when they launch in a meaningful way I'll bother doing that research, but I am also a cynic about people offering to make a difficult thing easy for a recurring fee.
Sure. And well we should be. Identify what people view as a personal problem, then offer a solution. This is the second YC startup I've seen today that falls under the category of magic baldness cream.
Guess I gotta step in here to protest "magic baldness cream".

We're not offering anything magic. The medication side has a compelling & growing evidence base: https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2032183

For the vast majority obesity doctors, a medication-assisted approach is now the gold standard.

The program side is also no magic. We do tough work, but with a strong evidence base, a powerful support structure and we give ourselves enough time (12-month program). We focus on the root causes of poor metabolic health: stress, sleep, exercise, dietary. From both the behavioral & psychological angles.

No magic here, just evidence-based interventions.

This is what's known as an 'anecdote', and is at the crux of the issues surrounding weight loss.

Virtually every _controlled_ study shows that metabolic differences between adults are within a margin of +/- 15%, with essentially no way to eat the same amount of calories as a 200lb person and stay at 465lbs. Not least of which because your basal metabolic rate is much higher at that weight.

Virtually every study shows that overweight people significantly underestimate their input (whether intentionally deceptive or simply unaware) and overreport their physical activity, like "I can jog 10 miles", or "I play tennis about 7 hours a week", or "I regularly make 60 mile bike rides". If you do, you're the extreme outlier, and it doesn't change the data. Assuming you can do those things, you're almost certainly still in your 20s, and the health effects of your weight haven't really caught up with your body yet.

Very simply, it's far more likely that you miss some of the calories you consume, either because you don't actually weigh your food or you discount the signficance of "small" things. A pound of fat is 3500 calories. That's more complicated inside metabolic processes, but it means that "an apple a day" is 10lbs per year.

That isn't to say that "prescribe more medication instead of correcting the underlying issue" (trauma, self-medication, dopamine flush, whatever) is the answer, but that diets perform poorly for a large fraction and fail abysmally for another third because we are bad at tracking things, we are bad at being uncomfortable, and we bad at self control, etc. Diets do work. It's sticking to the diet and recognizing when you're off the rails which is difficult.

It's also difficult to acknowledge that this "diet" is not temporary and you can go back to old eating habits once the weight is off. The new caloric consumption is forever, because that's what brought you to the new homeostatis.

> overreport their physical activity, like "I can jog 10 miles", or "I play tennis about 7 hours a week", or "I regularly make 60 mile bike rides". If you do, you're the extreme outlier, and it doesn't change the data. Assuming you can do those things, you're almost certainly still in your 20s, and the health effects of your weight haven't really caught up with your body yet

I'm 37, and 6'5". and if you're calling me a liar, you can fuck right off.

>within a margin of +/- 15%, with essentially no way to eat the same amount of calories as a 200lb person and stay at 465lbs. Not least of which because your basal metabolic rate is much higher at that weight.

I was not trying to indicate that the actual metabolic burn rate of humans varies by huge factors, "metabolism" is a colloquial term that encompasses a poorly defined set of features. The physical, psychological, and emotional components of your experience of a calorie deficit are what causes the experiential variance I'm describing.

Of course if I could eat a 2000 calorie diet consistently for a long period of time I would lose weight! I've performed that process numerous times, with various caloric deficits (my basal is a bit past 3k, so 2k is a pretty serious deficit - I wasn't able to hold that one past three weeks). This is when most thin people start rambling about "willpower", but maybe just skip that part this time? It's not useful to any of us actual fat people.

Agreed about the willpower rambling and the usefulness. This is the crux for me.
I said that you may be an extreme outlier. You're also larger than every NFL player in history, everyone in World's Strongest Man, etc. A 10 mile jog (let's say 80-100 minutes of uninterrupted running) is the sort of "I could eat 50 eggs" number people pull out.

At 6'5", you are an outlier. 2kcal is too low, much as it's too high for the average woman. This doesn't mean that metabolism is a "colloquial" term. It means that "the physical, psychological, and emotional components" is a long way of saying "it's hard", and "the experiential variance I'm describing" is "the payoff did not seem to be worth the cost".

In general, my post wasn't intended to be an attack on you. It's that "I cut calories and I lost weight" is not anecdotal. It's factual. The anecdote, if any, is "I'm larger than the largest professional athletes and I can still perform". Since it's hard to stick with cutting calories for many people, throwing drugs at it with Fella is not the right answer.

A holistic approach which addresses trauma, reasons for emotional eating, lifestyle replacements, recalibration of palate, satiation even at a deficit, and all the rest should be explored alongside drugs so "I cut calories and I lost weight" is easier to stick with.

> It's that "I cut calories and I lost weight" is not anecdotal. It's factual.

It simplifies the problem though, because for many, that approach has side-effects that seriously affect quality of life, like sleep, concentration, mood swings, depression etc.

Speaking of depression, I often get a similar vibe in those threads, where undoubtedly someone will jump in and say "all you have to do is lift heavy weights and change your diet a bit". It feels like they haven't experienced what other people have, so their advice sounds tone-deaf, a version of "let them eat cake".

> Since it's hard to stick with cutting calories for many people, throwing drugs at it with Fella is not the right answer.

If it works, it's great. Because obviously the "just change your life to be like me and hope for the best" approach doesn't work for most people, or they'd do it.

Really nicely put.

I've wanted to bring up how physicians treatment of depression has radically changed in the last few decades (to have a much greater appreciation of the medication-assistance), but I didn't want to bring it up myself as I thought it may be too confusion/controversial.

If calorie restriction is causing those side effects, it is an indicator that the person is "doing it wrong" by either restricting their intake far more than is healthy or more likely their diet is very sub optimal (eg, 100% carbs causing blood sugar to spike and then crash when they "run out" of calories).

These are problems of application which are easy to fix with a food journal and perhaps a bit of research, not really a great argument against calorie restrictions effectiveness.

I feel like this is a pretty bold statement, and I'm not sure how much evidence there is behind this.
Honestly this is a pretty good description of the Fella program: "A holistic approach which addresses trauma, reasons for emotional eating, lifestyle replacements, recalibration of palate, satiation even at a deficit, and all the rest."

We designed Fella because "throwing drugs at it" is not the best solution for patients.

The crucial difference to your approach is the addition of the medication. Which if you speak to any obesity specialist MD, is exactly what they'd recommend: pharmacotherapy + psychological & behavioral intervention.

Please do not let moral posturing cause you to underrate the importance of a holistic approach which includes medication-assistance.

> Please do not let moral posturing cause you to underrate the importance of a holistic approach which includes medication-assistance.

I get that you're a founder. It would be great to not cast aspersions on people. "I think your approach sucks" is not "moral posturing", and I'd question how many ethical doctors would recommend something insurance will not cover with an unknown end date to the treatment plan as "pharmacotheraphy" out of the gate.

For those who cannot gain muscle mass, injecting testosterone would also work (and would work for weight loss). Messing about with the endocrine system is tricky. Your body is really good at homeostasis. It's also really good at saying "welp, I guess that's covered, so I'm good" when exogenous sources of hormones are introduced.

Is this part of the treatment plan? What about diabetic patients (who appear to be a small part of the studies leading to approval)? How are you going to control for hyperglycemic ketoacidosis?

What's the long term effect of this on alpha cells and pancreatic health? How long is the titration for normal pancreatic function to resume? When exogenous glucagon is removed, what are the hunger levels of patients? Bounceback effect on weight if appetite is increased in the meantime?

Yes, use every tool in your toolbox, but there are a lot of unanswered questions about the medication in question, and a lack of insurance coverage. I've been overweight. Your body is not a formula in the "I calculated CICO, and...", but it does follow basic rules in a "I tracked my calories religiously, and over the last 2 weeks, my average daily intake was X, and the scale change was Y, so I need to modulate intake/activity up/down/stay the same" until you reach your goal.

That's hard for some (many) people. It's also completely sustainable. We want an "easy" way to do things. Sometimes "easy" things have detrimental effects in the long term, which are not apparent during clinical trials or short (let's say 3-5y or less) term, medically speaking.

Doctors would recommend pharmacotheraphy for obese patients because the health effects of being obese are dramatic, and almost certain to be worse than whatever the health effects of the drug are, because they have relationships with the vendors, because they are not sure whether the patient could affect the same change in health without them, etc.

However, if presented with the choice of "Patient X is able to achieve the desired outcome without the addition of medication", that would be the choice every time. You can filter that through the scale to "Patient X is unable to achieve the desired outcome without incurring significant financial burden/hardship by taking a new-to-market drug with unknown long-term consequences and an unpredictable prognosis once pharmaceutical intervention ceases, but the outcomes are so much better that this risk is warranted", which seems to be close to the starting point of the pitch here.

Medical ethics are not moral posturing.

Edit: your cofounder is doing a great job (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28260302) addressing the tradeoffs here.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but this is not the greatest venue for comments like the last one in that chain (yours) (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28261777). People here want to know how it works, why it works, what your pitch is, why we should recommend it, etc.

I am not your target demographic and never would be for a variety of reasons, not least of which being that I've been a competitive athlete in weight-class based sports for almost my entire life (outside of the 5-6 year period where i stopped training and became obese). I am here com...

Understood and good points. Thank you for the candor: I got caught up and quickly typed a throwaway comment. Definitely my bad.
> I cut calories and I lost weight" is not anecdotal. It's factual

I think perhaps you're misunderstanding what "anecdote" means? Anecdotes can certainly be factual - the point is not that it's false, it's that it's not sufficiently representative. In particular, I wasn't challenging his assertion that cutting calories allowed him to lose weight, only the implicit claim that doing so is a universally straightforward and successful approach to effecting actual weight loss.

> and all the rest should be explored alongside drugs

Well yes! That's my position! I don't think "drugs will solve this problem", I think the problem is solvable, and that we need to understand it and its context better in order to do so. I'm a tinkerer, I've been experimenting with my own habits, diet, and activities constantly trying to better understand how I can be healthier and still happy, and there have been some real gains from that process.

I feel like (a) you don't agree with the approach Fella is taking (which is fine, you've clearly looked into it more than I have), and (b) you've decided that my opinions about the effectiveness of diets are somehow "on their side". I think I've been really clear about this, but I have no stake in their game, aside from being excited to see that people are trying to do something other than convince fat people that this diet will totally work (and if it doesn't it's because they were yet again bad people that deserve to be fat.)

> "the physical, psychological, and emotional components" is a long way of saying "it's hard", and "the experiential variance I'm describing" is "the payoff did not seem to be worth the cost".

Not even close. But you seem intelligent, so I'm left wondering if you're intentionally misinterpreting me to score some kind of internet points?

The intent of those phrases is to emphasize that the costs to the humans involved vary. They are different. So yeah, "the payoff did not seem to be worth the cost", in the same sense that a man with a bad knee would evaluate the cost/value of paying for a taxi differently.

Unsure how helpful this slapdown is after the guy is sharing something pretty vulnerable.
Diets don't fail because they're inherently flawed and the system is more complex than we think it is. Diets fail because people fail. "I tried and I failed, but I still do all this physical stuff or could if I wanted to" is dishonesty, whether intended or not.

Asserting that, for some unspecified (but large) fraction of the population, tracking your caloric intake and energy expenditure versus the number on the scale is inherently flawed is dangerous, misleading, and probably false. At least partly because overweight people may lie to themselves.

In this sense, and in the context of Fella, throwing more drugs at the problem isn't a solution any more than throwing additional hardware at an application because the developer insists that database indexes don't work everywhere. It's true, but requires extraordinary evidence, and should not be the baseline assumption.

It does look like Fella is addressing psychological issues which I think are huge. The issue if you deny that calories in v calories burnt is the essential metric is you end up with the problem with bariatric surgery where people literally eat to the point of severe pain and don't lose weight. It's why responsible surgeon always require significant calorie restriction weight loss before surgery.
I'm sorry this isn't clearer. The core part of the coaching program is focused on psychology: we even call it "psychological coaching" internally! That's the stress eating side, then also diving deeper into why we make the food choices & portion size choices we do.

My take: a approach focused only on changing behavior has good parts, but traditionally been way too much reliance on this and not enough on the psychological/cognitive side.

The thing is, if you speak to obesity specialist MDs, they really do come at this in a different way. They have a much more nuanced view of how underlying metabolism / biology interact with CICO.

I know personally because I used to believe a puritan CICO, but had a "viewquake" moment speaking with them and had to change a lot about what I believe!

Importantly they try to focus exclusively on practical solutions for the population: what will actually work in the world. They detach themselves from a lot of the moralizing we see.

Your attitude toward the topic is fairly typical, and pretty harmful. "Diets fail because people fail" is true, of course - my point is that people "failing" is not always (or even usually) a result of intrinsic weakness of willpower, but a result of substantial variation in the real world experience of maintaining a calorie-restricted diet.

As a thought experiment, imagine if, for every 100 calories of deficit in their daily consumption, a random tenth of the population felt substantial and increasing physical pain. Would you describe their inability to consistently lose weight as a 'failure' on their part? As essentially due to a lack of sufficient discipline? What if it were nausea? Exhaustion?

Now picture a world in which that is the actual norm, and those people are subjected to frequent ridicule for their lack of willpower and bombarded with the message that they are inferior because of it. If they'd just man up and stomach the pain for the rest of their lives, they'd have no trouble losing weight, it's simple physics.

This isn't an accurate representation of reality of course. I don't feel physical pain when I run a hundred calorie deficit, I just feel tired most of the time, and I lose the energy to enjoy physical pursuits. I'm confident that if I applied enough effort (again), I'd lose some weight (again), and keep it off for as long as I continued spending that effort. Again.

> Asserting that .. tracking your caloric intake and energy expenditure versus the number on the scale is inherently flawed is dangerous, misleading, and probably false.

That's not what I'm asserting. And I think that's been pretty clear, really! There are millions of fat people who are actively trying to be thinner in various ways and repeatedly "failing". Do you really think that telling all of those people to "just try harder" is a useful thing to do?

I don't personally expect drugs to be the answer to the problem, and I don't have any opinion on the "Fella" business model or likely effectiveness. My position this whole time has just been that fat people are mostly not fat because they don't understand that restricting calories will make them thinner. Understanding the actual reasons is important, and it's far more difficult to do when any real conversation on the topic is inundated with comments to the effect of "have you tried not eating as much? It's really easy, just eat less."

On re-read, this jumped out at me:

> Diets don't fail because they're inherently flawed and the system is more complex than we think it is. Diets fail because people fail.

The system includes the people. If the people "fail", that is relevant information, and should be used to evaluate the 'effectiveness' of the approach. The system is extremely complex, including as it does all of human psychology and physicality, and yet every one of these discussions is dogged by people like you, that think that the problem is just that people don't try hard enough.

Well sure they don't, that's also the reason they can't all bench 400 pounds - "hard enough" is the critical phrase here, and your language and attitude place all of the blame on the individual. It's a lot like explaining that depressed people are responsible for their own emotional state, and should just start exercising and cheer up - it's factually true, and yet also unhelpful, counterproductive, and insulting.

> Virtually every _controlled_ study shows that metabolic differences between adults are within a margin of +/- 15%, with essentially no way to eat the same amount of calories as a 200lb person and stay at 465lbs. Not least of which because your basal metabolic rate is much higher at that weight.

That sound a bit wrong to me. Fat needs energy to maintain itself? Isn't it just an energy store? If you're 465lbs with the same muscle percentage as someone 200lbs maybe that's how it works, but no one at 465lbs has less than 15/20% body fat.

It's more that the muscles (assuming same muscle mass) have to do comparatively more work if they are carrying around more weight.
That is true but I don't think that accounts for all the metabolism. There's probably something to say about having to maintain your temperature, but I don't know if it consumes more or less energy in general as fat isolates. Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basal_metabolic_rate) says that 70% of the metabolism comes from the organs, 20% the muscles and 10% thermogenesis. All probably grow as you gain weight, but I seriously doubt that an obese person weighing 400lbs consumes twice as much energy as someone weighing 200lbs. What I'm trying to say is that the idea that you have to eat enormous quantities of food to maintain a high weight seems wrong to me, and that simply saying that the person must be missing some calories that they consume or lying about their level of activity seems condescending to me.

To change the subject, do you plan on expending Fella to Europe at some point? I really like your approach.

Really nicely put.

Yep we're British founders so would love to expand to Europe in the future. Sadly won't be for a couple of years though - lots of work to be done first in the US!

Thanks, and good luck with the US!
>Fat needs energy to maintain itself?

Yes. Stored fat isn't just inert fat, but fatty tissue. Made of cells that need energy to stay alive.

Thanks for your response and taking the time to answer these questions.

> basically the body fights hard against you as you try to lose weight by dieting

Anecdotally I think many folks would agree. Any citations or references you could provide on this point would be greatly appreciated - I'm struggling to find any solid literature with the phrase "metabolic resistance" in the context of dietary changes.

> So it's now industry-standard among obesity specialist doctors to see obesity as a "metabolic disease" which, for the vast majority of people, needs a medical approach which doesn't rely on willpower.

I agree that the current standard of care is largely focused on prescription medication. Is there strong evidence supporting the claim that the majority of people need treatment that doesn't rely on willpower? I'm particularly interested in the well documented association between obesity and mental health [1], and I think Fella would be especially compelling if a holistic approach to treatment was offered.

[1] The High Prevalence of Poor Physical Health and Unhealthy Lifestyle Behaviours in Individuals with Severe Mental Illness https://www.researchgate.net/profile/David-Scott-76/publicat...

(Richie's co-founder here)

You're spot on with the link between mental health and obesity and the need for a holistic approach.

For many of the guys stress and anxiety will play a key part in their food habits. This is something that our coaches actively ask about and help manage if relevant. For other guys it might be sleep [1] or it might be macro-nutrients. The coaching will depend on the person and we make these changes supported by their medical team.

> Anecdotally I think many folks would agree. Any citations or references you could provide on this point would be greatly appreciated - I'm struggling to find any solid literature with the phrase "metabolic resistance" in the context of dietary changes.

"Long-term persistence of hormonal adaptations to weight loss" [2] and [3] are both interesting papers on this. With the summary being that weight loss results in prolonged changes in your hormones associated with increased appetite and thus weight regain. This results in a strong negative feedback cycle.

[1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28164452/ [2] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22029981/ [3] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5764193/

Thank you for the excellent response and citations. I think you and Richie are on to something here - wishing you the best of luck.
Thank you! I enjoyed your great comments too
This has been so true to me. At the beginning of the pandemic I started keto. The first six months the weight fell off then I just hit a wall right around the time I began exercising (a full season of skiing) and weight lifting. For the last month I've been combining keto with IF and I'm getting a tiny bit of headway. My body just seems to be fighting VERY hard to resist my best efforts. And while I'm not checking to see if my body is in ketosis, my diet is significantly more strict compared to when I started keto 1.5 yr ago. I keep doing keto (despite the plateau) because it has helped me in many other ways (sleep, asthma, chronic fatigue, mental health etc.) For reference I am 51 yo.
Interesting to hear this personal experience.

If you're interested in some research behind this:

"Long-term persistence of hormonal adaptations to weight loss" - [1] and [2] are both interesting papers on this. With the summary being that weight loss results in prolonged changes in your hormones associated with increased appetite and thus weight regain. This results in a strong negative feedback cycle.

[1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22029981/ [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5764193/

tldr: our bodies make it v difficult for folks!

I tried fasting and a pure keto diet. While they do work, I felt miserable. This is not sustainable for people like me who has to lose more than 100 pounds.

Now I started losing weight by just balancing macro-nutrients; more protein, more vegetables, less carbs as opposed to absolutes "no" and "only" except for no sugary drinks and beer and deserts except in social occasions. Also big emphasis on weight lifting as opposed to cardio. Cardio helps with its own health benefits but is very poor for muscle growth and fat loss and should be seen as a compliment.

Yep spot on about the sustainability. We hear this all the time from the Fellas.
I felt miserable on Keto the first two times I tried it. I’ve found doing fasting in the month prior helped with the adaptation and a large part of the misery was loss of electrolytes.

By using electrolyte powder I only really had one or two really miserable days this time round.

Interesting. How long have you been doing keto this time?
Only week 3, but finding it pretty great this time round, ketones actively suppressing appetite, eating about 2 meals a day, down about 6kg so far. I still fast a couple of times a week, but being in ketosis already makes it crazy easy. Have enough energy for gym, though power slightly down.

I hear people can hit a wall about 8 weeks in, but also hear that could be down to over-consuming seed oils. Will see how it goes.

Very interesting. I'll try it out with electrolytes. What did you take as electrolytes supplement?
Fasting is a migraine trigger for me. Many other migraineurs agree. Other migraineurs see benefits from fasting.

My point being: there is no "one size fits all" approach to weight loss.

Important to hear this. I'd say there's a huge lack of empathy (understanding that someone can have a very different experience) in this space because of how it's tied in with society's take on individualism & moral responsibility.
As someone who has tried both: semaglutide and smaller diet changes have been a lot easier for me than fasting, which did work but was stressful and extremely difficult to do long term.
Thanks for sharing, important to hear anecdotal evidence.
I am sorry, but this is nothing less than an abomination. Drugs, drugs, drugs. More drugs. Let's drug everyone. Let's have everyone popping pills for everything. Why not. And make millions, billions, while we are at it.

And your sob story? Do you think you are the only person in the world who has had to deal with stress? This is ridiculous. How about this for stress: My grandparents were genocide survivors. They saw portions of their family killed in the most horrific ways. And they somehow managed that and moved on. Me, personally, I've had one pretty horrific business failure that drove me to the edge of understanding why people take their own lives after ending-up in the hospital twice due to stress.

WE DO NOT NEED PILLS!

Yes, I am yelling.

We need action on better food quality and education. People are filling themselves up with nothing but crap. Ketogenic diets and balanced living work, 100% of the the time. Exercise and activity is the magic "pill" that manages stress.

Frankly, I am astounded that YC would fund and support something like this. I don't care about your credentials and sob story. This is an abomination. Yes, you are likely to make billions. Congratulations. You are not going to fix a damn thing. All you are going to accomplish is to get millions of people hooked on yet another "once daily" legal drug of some sort.

If you truly cared about helping people you would work towards fixing what's actually wrong rather than getting millions of people to pop pills.

What when they stop? Huh?

They will have developed no good habits at all. They will not have a clue as to how to manage stress. They sure as fuck are not going to understand that exercise is important and necessary. They are not going to become discerning about what they eat. And our industrialized toxic food industry isn't going to change a thing. They will pop your pills as they suck-in a two liter drink with insane amounts of sugar and inhale cheap carbohydrates in their burritos, burgers, pizza, etc.

Weight management isn't at all about eating less. It's about not eating food that actively want to slowly kill you and, yes, engaging in a modicum of exercise in order to deal with insulin resistance, keep bones strong, etc.

I've had my own battles with this. Lots of people do. Until I finally listened to my wife (an MD). So I proposed an experiment: I would do no exercise at all other than taking walks with her a few evenings per week. She was pushing me to take-up a low carb ketogenic-style diet. As an engineer, I wanted to isolate exercise from a change in eating habits. That's what we did. And the results were hard to ignore. It was slow going, but the fat just came off --without having to run a marathon every day to burn extra calories. I eat as much as I want. No restrictions other than "don't eat garbage/sugars/simple carbs, etc.". After dropping two pant sizes and feeling "normal" again I can now go for the finishing touch and add exercise to this in the form of strength training.

The most important outcome was to reeducate myself about what and how I should be eating. That's it. It's as simple as that. No drug is going to do that. Ever. Unless the intent is to hook people for their $149 per month in perpetuity.

Sorry, to take such an aggressive tone. This is, to use the term, deplorable. Shame on you. Invest the money educating people on how NOT to use a drug to improve their lives. Pills isn't a long term sustainable solution. You are bound to ruin more lives than you save. And you are not going to do anything about improving the quality of the food that our population consumes.

Think of kids. Their food choices --particularly in the case of lower education parents-- boil down to choices between different kinds of toxic garbage. By the time they leave high school they have already imprinted horrible habits and done damage to their bodies. ...

Congrats on having a relatively easy time losing weight, but you're not the only person in the world, and not everyone's body works the same as yours. Your scolding of a clinically proven weight loss approach for not being what you did is solipsistic and ignorant. Your approach is, like the others, one among many that will work for some people.
You have a point but there is one common thing shared between every obese person. They eat too much, or the wrong things. That's a given and a simple fact that everyone knows but not everyone is willing to acknowledge.

Sure, there are medical conditions that sometimes play a role. But how often is that the case? I actually don't know. Maybe your company could help with that?

Good luck. There's obviously a market for your services.

"calories in" (too much or wrong things) is for sure important - but focusing solely on this when we're looking for practical solutions is not the most helpful framework for people who are fighting obesity.
GPs approach will work for almost all people, if they actually do it.
The sustainability of approaches is what we hear most from the Fellas. Most diets work in the short run but aren't sustainable long-term, especially when you're already battling against your metabolism.
I've lost plenty of weight with intermittent fasting. It totally works. My sleep schedule went crazy, no matter what I did. My ability to focus was completely lost, as if I was constantly overdosing on coffee.

Yes, it works, and maybe it works easy & side-effect free for some, but tbh I'd rather be overweight and die 10 years earlier, than live like that.

Important to hear this.

An important takeaway from all this is that people react very differently to similar regimes, and projecting our own (successful) experience of a regime onto someone else is likely to not represent their experience.

> Your scolding of a clinically proven weight loss approach for not being what you did is solipsistic and ignorant.

Far from ignorant. It is an absolute fact --thermodynamics-- that no human being needs a pill to lose weight. So, stop with the holier-than-thou come-back and think.

This is no different from selling crap weight loss supplements to people. Why? Because they do not need that either. The fact that something is clinically proven means nothing. Why? Because people don't need it.

> Your approach is, like the others, one among many that will work for some people.

It isn't my approach. I only had to lose about 30 lbs. I could have done that going back to strength training, which was I was into before the pandemic hit. I decided to see if there was any merit to what my wife, the MD, was telling me.

Major "duh" moment: Of course it had merit! And of course it can work for absolutely everyone!

And, guess what, it does not cost $150 per month. No pills necessary.

The problem with obesity, particularly in the US, is systemic. Our food is unmitigated garbage and we train our kids to eat and crave this garbage from early childhood times. By the time they become young adults they are well on their way to a life of dealing with weight problems and a straight line into diabetes and other ailments.

You can't fix inflammation from food with pills, unless you want to be popping them for the rest of your life and end-up with other problems because of it.

This is going to sound weird: I am always astounded by how much I have learned by raising and training GSD's (German Shepherd Dogs). Stay with me for a second.

One of our GSD's developed a very serious problem a number of years ago. His skin smelled horrible and he lost all hear from his chest and belly. His coat looked dull, almost dead.

Not knowing what was going on I sought advice from our vet. He suggested I take him to a veterinary dermatologist. $2,500 and bunch of shots and pills later, we went home with a plan. Pop pills every day. Get this magical shot once a month.

Sure enough, in about four weeks his coat was nice and shinny again, his skin didn't smell and hair started to come back to his chest.

Back we went for another shot and more pills. This was running about $600 per month. The dermatologist said he'd have to be on this program for the rest of his life. Wow.

I decided to reach out to a number of GSD groups and breeders. A theme emerged from these conversations very quickly: Change his food. He is having allergic reaction to his food. Stop the nonsense the dermatologist is selling you.

So, I did. I figured I could try for a couple months and, if nothing changed, go back to the treatment.

We went with a high quality food with twice the protein content and far less junk carbs, etc.

Less than a month later this dog was in what I might describe as the best shape of his life. He looked great, was happy, didn't have smelly skin, his coat grew back on this chest and belly and was pretty much the picture of a healthy dog. This was many years ago. He has been on this better-food diet every since and looks and feels wonderful.

We have lost sense of just how important good food is for our bodies and minds. We accept that the garbage we buy at the market and restaurants is normal. Well, it isn't. This is the problem. The vet dermatologist was administering a government approved drug to my dog. It worked. And yet that was not really the solution, because it did not address the underlying problem. And that's the issue I have this startup. It isn't a solution. At all. Nobody needs this to lose weight.

You clearly care a lot. I respect that.

My prompt for you: do you care about the people suffering, or do you care more about moral posturing & fist shaking?

If you care about the people suffering, drop me an email on richie@joinfella.com and I will help you however I can to empower you to tackle whatever you see as the root cause.

Me: Your personal experiences aren't sufficient basis to say what is right for everyone on the planet.

You: Nonsense, and to prove it, here's another long personal anecdote.

Oh, please. Personal experiences are just useful examples, anecdotes, illustrations. They do not describe the universe.

The obesity epidemic in this nation isn't caused by people are eating good food and exercising. It is caused by the kinds of things my examples illustrate. And yes, in this case, there happens to be a single basic truth: People are eating too much and too much crap.

You might want to poke fun at what I am saying, come back with contemptuous responses, kill me with downvotes and flagging. And yet, the obesity epidemic has rendered every single weight loss program, drug or magical juju bean "solution", ineffective, even harmful. I wonder how many people have been hurt badly by horrendous weight loss/gain cycles as a direct result of these "solutions"?

Our problem is not solved with drugs, supplements and magical programs.

Our obesity problem is a far deeper issue that requires intervention into our industrialized food system as well as a rethink of our educational choices.

What's really interesting to me is that in this entire incident NOT ONE PERSON has countered my claim that the real problem is bad food and bad habits. That's interesting.

Also, not one person has said something like "No, you are wrong, thermodynamics doesn't work that way...you can eat four times the carb/sugar-laden food you should eat on a daily basis, sit in front of the TV and still maintain good health".

No, all the negative reaction is pretty much about being offended for my strong reaction to yet another easy weight loss scheme that, based on recorded weight loss industry history is going to be no different from everything else we have seen. Only this time it is YC backed, so, I guess that's OK.

In engineering we are trained (or should be trained) to perform real --not imaginary-- root cause analysis in order to understand how to solve a problem. When you do that with regards to obesity, absolutely everything points to bad food, bad choices, bad personal habits and bad education. That's it. This is the root cause package, if you will. And none of this is fixed with a pill. Temporarily, maybe. Long term? No way.

>WE DO NOT NEED PILLS!

>Yes, I am yelling.

If pills work then what's the problem? It seems to me that you're making an appeal to nature (https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/appeal-to-nature). Given all the health problems associated with obesity from cancer to cardiovascular problems then whatever side effects the pills have are probably negligible in comparison.

> Weight management isn't at all about eating less. It's about not eating food that actively want to slowly kill you and, yes, engaging in a modicum of exercise in order to deal with insulin resistance, keep bones strong, etc.

Yes nutrition and exercise are important, but even if it's common knowledge it's obviously working like abstinence based sexual education is working to prevent STDs and teenage pregnancy because like we have a natural urge to sex we also have a natural urge to eat calories and while saving energy.

> "Take this pill...we will save you". Sick.

A lot of pills are necessary to prolong and maintain quality of life. What's "sick" about this?

Assuming obesity is largely due to mental issues like stress eating, the solution should also be a mental one. It's basically an addition. Most people are perfectly capable of quitting but don't because it's easier not to.

This includes myself. I recently put on a bit of weight and I know exactly why: second servings, having a few beers, difficulties sticking to a diet with kids and dietary allergies in the house, no time or too lazy for exercise. It's all on me.

Something that can be fixed by just putting your mind to it shouldn't have to be treated with pills.

For some people it will probably be the hardest thing they ever do - I'm not downplaying this. So, for people who don't have the willpower pills is probably the best solution.

Thanks for sharing man.

Important to emphasize there is a large variety of causes: stress eating is certainly a big part for a lot of people, but it's far from universal & far from the whole story.

"Something that can be fixed by just putting your mind to it shouldn't have to be treated with pills" is I think an interesting statement. I'm unconvinced "putting your mind to it" is as simple as it's made out to be.

>I'm unconvinced "putting your mind to it" is as simple as it's made out to be.

Back when I was in university, I decided to simply "put my mind to it" and went from 100kg->65kg in one year. That weight stayed off for the better part of half a decade.

"Simply" doing the same thing now, though, with all of the competing priorities I have (young child, growing business, burned out wife and a constantly shifting set of rules and uncertainty with the pandemic), is a different story. I think men especially are hesitant to come to terms with this because it means admitting weakness.

Thanks for creating this product, Rich. I really wish you success.

> Assuming obesity is largely due to mental issues

Obesity increased with the increase of meal size, average caloric intake and urbanization based around cars.

Correct that there are a host of causes, certainly not simple.
It is simple. Calorie intake increased while calories spent decreased; creating energy surplus which is then stored in fat. The causal relationship between obesity and mental health is also not clear.
> for people who don't have the willpower pills is probably the best solution.

Even for those, should'nt the solution be a stronger detox, intervention, stricter regimen to have external help in supplementing their willpower, etc?

Should'nt this be preferred over pills?

You have to look at the pros & cons, the likelihood of success, how "bad" the condition / urgent the treatment is, general condition of the patient etc.

Same for things like anxiety, insomnia, ...

It's important you've written this. We need to have frank conversations about obesity. It affects a lot of people and a lot of people have very strong views on the best solution.

I'll focus on one area of your post: "They will have developed no good habits at all. They will not have a clue as to how to manage stress. They sure as fuck are not going to understand that exercise is important and necessary. They are not going to become discerning about what they eat...They will pop your pills as they suck-in a two liter drink with insane amounts of sugar and inhale cheap carbohydrates in their burritos, burgers, pizza, etc."

I want to emphasize how wrong you are here.

Fella is a 12-month program, with continued support for the rest of your life after that first year. The program is focused on:

- building resilience to stress & other testing emotions

- building a sustainable exercise habit which is enjoyable and sustainable

- building healthier eating habits which are realistic & sustainable

- building sleep habits which help improve metabolic health

In terms of the medication, it's really important to listen to obesity specialists here. They are trying to find practical solutions to help people. It's clear that moral indignation isn't working so far.

These are all legitimate concerns you raise. Know that I have researched this deeply, and genuinely believe this is the best practical solution to help the most amount of people.

Please let me know your thoughts.

> It's clear that moral indignation isn't working so far.

This is my favorite HN line in ages, kudos!

PS - in California and signed up for the wait list.

you could make the same argument about any modern technology
It is interesting how divisive conversations around weight can be. For a lot of people, it represents a broader theme of we view individualism & morality.
Yes. My understanding is that body weight is more than 60% genetically determined, but somehow it is the moral worth of the phenotype that is to blame.
Very well written and I find it hard to disagree.
If you had a bigger family member who had tried everything, what would you recommend to them?
What is far more likely is that they didn't actually try everything. This is one of the problems. If you had an accurate log of their behavior and nutrition it would likely be very easy to determine that they did not, in fact, do what they were supposed to do, sometimes at all.

I've seen this so many times I don't even bother to comment any more. The typical case is the person who will, for example, claim to have started a ketogenic diet and next time you see them they ingest three slices of pizza. What's amazing to me is that they actually think they are doing everything they are supposed to do.

> what would you recommend to them?

I would put it in a very different way using a hypothetical case.

Let's assume that a person has 90 days to loose a bunch of weight or they are going to die. Not muscle, fat. In other words, improve their body composition to trim both visceral and other fat.

What would I recommend they do?

Take a pill? Nope.

I would make sure they could not eat as much as they have been eating and would add moderate exercise. We could argue about what they should and should not be eating, but even if all you eat is ice cream and candy, if I put you on a 100 calorie daily diet of ice cream for 90 days straight, you are going to lose weight at an alarming rate.

Not that I am proposing this at all. It would not be healthy. A balanced diet is important for a range or reasons having nothing to do with weight loss. The point is that people who claim to have tried everything are lying to themselves, they have not, because, at the end of the day, if you eat less (a little to a lot less, depending on circumstances) you will lose weight.

It really isn't that complicated. It isn't easy because of a range of factors, including what ingesting so much sugar and simple carbs does to your body and brain, but it isn't complicated.

> "They sure as fuck are not going to understand that exercise is important and necessary. They are not going to become discerning about what they eat. They will...inhale cheap carbohydrates in their burritos, burgers, pizza, etc"

Who are you referring to with these wide-sweeping, derogatory stereotypes, who are "they"? I genuinely find it shocking that you find it appropriate to group together the millions of people who struggle with obesity for various and legitimate reasons as "they".

Maybe also think about your privilege as an "engineer" with a wife who is a doctor before offering these unneeded criticisms on "lower educated parents".

It's narratives like those in this post which alienate people who are already struggling, and paint obesity as a moral failing. You are the one with a moral failing right now.

So I guess I'm yelling too..

WE DO NOT NEED TO DEMONIZE AND DEHUMANIZE MILLIONS OF PEOPLE BASED ON THEIR SOCIOECONOMIC BACKGROUND, EDUCATION OR HEALTH.

Of course obesity is an emotional topic but attacking someone personally about it is way, way beyond the pale.

Breaking the HN guidelines will get you banned here, regardless of how right you are, or feel you are, about obesity and other topics. No more of this, please.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Funding a company to effectively hook people on pills by taking advantage of their vulnerability, mental state and frustration is nothing less than profane. It's one thing to turn people into ad-clicking drones, quite another to hook them on drugs when they do not need them.

You might object to my lashing out. Well, sometimes it is important to take a strong stance. And, yes, sometimes those promoting magical solutions are culpable and should be scolded.

Am I wrong? I do not think so. Nobody needs pills to lose weight. Nobody. That is a matter of both biology and physics. I'll defy anyone to prove otherwise. Have we become insane?

The problem is that we have industrialized bad food choices and have created a marketplace where it is actually difficult to escape stuff that is bad for you.

Just last night we were at a restaurant. A few tables over was a family where every single member, kids included, were twice the size of a normal and healthy person. Their table was full of all of the wrong choices. And, on top of that, large free-refill glasses of soft drinks. At the end of their meal they all had cake and ice cream. Wow.

My youngest kids just started in-person high school again. The school has free food for every student. Its absolute garbage. The word "junk" doesn't even begin to cover it. The healthiest thing they have is apple juice, with nearly 40 grams of sugar per serving. My kids pack a lunch, just a simple sandwich them make themselves every morning. Not very expensive at all. Not hard to make. We don't make them, the kids do and have been doing so for years. They also drink water. We have no soft drinks at home. The kids grew up drinking water and have no cravings whatsoever for soft drinks, candy, ice cream, etc. Sure, we occasionally have the stuff at parties, but that's the exception rather than the rule. And, no, they are not deprived. They simply do not care for the stuff because they did not become addicted to any of it as they grew up.

Every family relying on the State/City/County/School district to feed their kids is, in return, having their kids poisoned. Worse yet, their kids are being programmed to become addicted to food that is absolutely horrible for them. When they come out of school they are well on their way to diabetes and other problems.

Pills?

Please.

Our kids are coming into adulthood biologically programmed for high levels of sugar and carbohydrate consumption. It's all they eat since they are done with breast feeding. No pill is going to fix that level of programming.

People who reach high levels of obesity are susceptible to the kinds of things that are going to cause them to spend money popping all kinds of pills every day. They are suffering, lots of them are depressed and our government and regulatory agencies have failed them --which is part of the reason they got there.

We don't need pills. The problem is systemic. Fund startups who will deal with this and not ones that are no different from any other yo-yo diet program by any other name.

Does anyone really think someone is going to change life-long habits after popping pills for a year? What is far more likely to happen is that they will become dependent on said pills, which is great for a revenue stream and a billion dollar exit to a pharmaceutical giant, not so great for the individual.

What is beyond the pale here isn't my choice of language or intensity, it's the ultimate significance of what this startup represents. No different from the abomination that bariatric surgery is. Great business. Horrible for the individual. I know two people who nearly died after having it.

Who am I kidding. There's money in suffering. I'll bet it will be a fantastic IPO one day. Maybe you should start marketing outside schools. Just like smoking, that's your future user base. Congratulations.

You clearly care a lot. I respect that.

My prompt for you: do you care about the people suffering, or do you care more about moral posturing & fist shaking?

If you care about the people suffering, drop me an email on richie@joinfella.com and I will help you however I can to empower you to tackle whatever you see as the root cause.

Dang, honestly, fuck you for censoring that post.
they also funded trymeasured.com if you're into the whole keto thing...
I tried Noom twice. I was the only man in the support group both times. It didn’t really speak to me or work for me.

Definitely interested in this!

Ever think of branching into addiction? That's another place where evidence based care is sorely lacking.
It's a possibility. There's already another YC co doing great things in the addiction space: https://www.quitgenius.com/

We'll have to see. We have a long way to go in the coming years reaching the 35 million men in the US who are fighting obesity.

Isn't obesity a result of food addiction?
It's one important cause - although "food addiction" is interestingly quite controversial in the research space, and the literature is fast growing here.

It's certainly something we tackle head on in our program.

But food addiction is not representative of everyone's struggles.

Great Idea!I checked out the website and it looks like it is targeted towards older men (40+). Was there any particular reasoning for this? I'm in my 20s and I know a lot of men my age who are obese. Was the program developed specifically for older men?
Really good question. In our customer dev, we tended to find the older guys were a more motivated initial audience because health concerns are more top of mind. Plus there's still a lot of hesitancy & stigma around medication for obesity, but the older guys are more ready to take that step.

Fella works just as well for younger guys. Any more questions I can answer?

Any plan for Canada?
Our focus is the US for the coming year or two. The state-by-state expansion is tricky for telehealth companies. But we're British founders so we recognize that this is needed in many other countries in the coming years!
A lot of docs I know are prescribing GLP1s already for weight loss, off label. When they get RCT data, get coverage, you guys will be way ahead. Congrats, amazing concept.
I remember reading studies of 30-36 lbs in a year, IF they maintain diet and exercise. I see this adherence as your competitive advantage.
15% average body weight loss was the breakthrough study: https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2032183

Important to emphasize that diet & exercise are only two parts of broader metabolic health. Sleep also very important.

And something our program focuses a lot on is stress eating. Very prevalent and a big factor, but normally overlooked.

(comment deleted)
What visa are you guys on in the us? I work at big corp on l1 and would love to be a founder but waiting for green card…
You could go the O1 route. The Peter Roberts HN posts (the immigration attorney who does work for YC startups) has lots of great info on this area: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27560781
I’m aware about it in theory, but I think for people already in us on a work visa it’s a chicken and egg problem between starting and getting the o1. I can’t start anything as I can only work for my employer, and I can’t get an o1 because I can’t start anything. Looks like the founders are not interested in answering this one.
We're actually not based in the US right now as we had to return home for covid, and we're building a remote co.

To be honest we sadly don't have any useful advice for US visas: it's not a fun system.

Only thing is it's now more possible than ever to soak up US culture, run a US-focused company, but not be based in the US. But that's not what you wanna hear if you've built your life there. I'm sorry we can't be more helpful

Thanks for answering! I guess it’s true remote work is taking over, good luck with everything!
Where is Washington state in your rollout plan? 2021? 2022?
(Richie's co-founder here) We are aiming for Washington by the end of 2021. If you'd like me to let you know when we launch there feel free to fill in the "Am I Eligible" quiz and join the waitlist or send an email to luke@joinfella.com and I'll add you manually
Already filled it out, thank you!
Perfect! Working our hardest to get live in WA in the coming quarters.
Intermittent fasting offers a great alternative that is completely free! The problem Fe Business perspective is of course that there's nothing to sell. No pills no magic nutrition plan or foods or exercise regime. And best of all...no calorie counting!

If you're fasting and feel hungry while carrying body fat it means your metabolism is broken. Insulins levels are high and thus prevent the use of stored body fat for energy. It's possible to reverse this condition but it can take time up to 6 months approx.

I really recommend to watch a pod cast with Dr. Benjamin Bikman.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfSJFPu50_A

It's incredible how fasting just works. I've lost 10kg of bf and 10cm from my waistline without counting a single calorie or feeling hungry at all over the course of 6 months. And I haven't lost strength either and my workouts are as intense as before. After i started fasting it took me a about 6 weeks to start seeing visible changes.

(Richie's co-founder here) Great to hear that intermittent fasting has been working well for you! There's also interesting research about the longevity benefits even if you're not looking for weight loss.

The best approach for getting to a healthier weight will vary by person. If you've put on a few pounds over the holidays but are otherwise fine then Fella is not for you. We're focusing on guys with a higher BMI (30+), they've tried everything including intermittent fasting, keto, Weight Watchers, etc. Normally they will have had short term results (even losing 60lbs+) but then put the weight back on. This is often the case for the guys that have been at a higher weight for a longer period of time as their metabolism is in a different place.

I sincerely hope regardless of methods you're able to help people and of course manage a to build a successful business well. Best of luck.
As somebody who has lost and gained weight a couple times, I can confidently say that losing weight on it’s own is hard. Really hard. I’ve had far more success deliberately changing my entire lifestyle and outlook on life. For me, it had to be a part of a wholistic health regimen. This included therapy, healthy eating, regular exercise, proper sleep, and a good balance of recreational activities (it’s important to have fun!). As somebody with chronic sleep problems, it’s been interesting seeing how unhealthiness in one aspect of life (sleep in my case) can affect other areas of my life (my weight). It’s hard to quantify this line of thinking, because in the end, all I did was eat less and exercise more to lose the weight. That advice isn’t terribly helpful. Then again, it’s very likely that “just be healthier” is just as unhelpful ;)

I will say, don’t be too hard on yourself. My stress eating would spiral (and still does!) when I get too hard on myself. Set small goals and objectives (no eating after dark, be mindful of what you put on your plate, no second helpings, etc) because completing these always feels good.

Well written. These are all core aspects of our coaching program to improve metabolic health: improve sleep, reduce stress, more pleasurable activities, better food choices, sustainable exercise routine, reasonable portion sizes.

The "small goals" is also critical to counter all-or-nothing thinking. We use a mix of behavioral & cognitive approaches to try to cement the improved habits & ways of thinking.

Do you help people account for family lifestyles and cooking for more than just themselves? I used to do 2-3 day fasts, but now that I’m married with kids I find it almost impossible to do so since I cook and prep all the meals.

I tried low carb and keto. It works fine for me, but selling my wife on a breakfast that consists of 6 eggs and a pound of bacon is a hard sell. So there’s always bread and pasta in the house, which makes it harder to resist.

Yep really good point about the family dynamics - lots of the Fellas talk about how having teenage kids around makes the dietary side really tough.

How the coaching works in the program is that we dive in at the start to really understand the 1-3 key leverage points where we can make the most impact - then focus all our coaching time on these.

My wife is lifelong vegetarian, and I'm a big fan of keto. We've basically adapted to a "I make food for myself, she makes food for herself and we split responsibility for making food for the kids" workflow and it works out pretty well.

It helps a lot that I do the grocery shopping, I try to avoid buying stuff that I'll be too tempted by - like regular carb tortillas or plain tortilla chips.

Keeping food out of the house is a powerful behavioral device. It takes away the "Ability" part from the Fogg Behavior Model if you find that framework helpful.
You apparently don't let people sign-up who are willing to pay out of pocket. Shame.
It should be possible — select "Uninsured" when you try and sign up (although I realize now that we can make that clearer). Email me at luke@joinfella.com if you have any issues
This is probably a bug in our infra! We're on it now to fix. If you email richie@joinfella.com I'll sort you.
I had been very, very excited to start semaglutide, but about eight weeks ago I picked up a CBT-based eating book called The Beck Diet Solution and I’ve so far found it very very effective
Yep CBT (and third wave cognitive therapies in general) are very effective against emotion-based overeating (e.g. stress eating). Stress eating is widespread and addressing it is a core part of our coaching.

Important to say not everyone struggles with stress eating, which is why our coaching program goes much broader than that.

The metabolic medication aspect is also really helpful, which is why we combine the two for Fella.

Not to suggest anything about your personal experience, but note that in general pretty much anyone can follow pretty much any diet for two months and lose weight if they try. The seriously hard bit - and the way you know you've found the right diet for you - is if you can follow it for the third month (and then all the months thereafter). Two months is roughly the upper limit for the "any diet will work for anyone" effect.
Well said. My take from research: structures from a CBT-based approach are really helpful and should be more widespread - but for most people are not sufficient in staying at a healthier weight long-term.
I am glad to see this. I was involved in a similar startup that became bogged down due to reasons that had nothing to do with the validity of the approach you are taking.

As I am sure you are aware, obesity is a complex issue and many of the suggestions sufferers get such as eat less, exercise more, try fasting, go keto, etc. are simply not helpful in and of themselves. Neither is just prescribing the latest medications without other forms of support.

I hope your concept of telehealth, medical supervision and personal coaching is one that will get results. Obesity is a serious issue that is robbing society of people and potential.

Thank you very much for this. Kind message.

What was the previous startup by the way? Always interested in improving my knowledge of the space!

Agree - I think psychology is everything. It's odd that drinking too much and drugs is always put down to trauma, stress, and psychological treatment is seen as number 1, whereas with food addiction - it's often ignored to the very last.

People can argue until they're blue in the face but if you eat less calories than you burn you will lose weight. The problem is people with trauma plus a food addiction are not able to do this.

Is there any research around where you live and propensity for morbid obesity - especially living by the sea? I could only find one study which did support this theory but it was in the UK. I live in Bondi Beach where socialising is essentially exercising - surfing, swimming, kayaking etc etc and anecdotally I don't think I've ever seen a morbidly obese person in over 30 years (I know this sounds ridiculous and maybe it's because they never leave the house but it's true).

We're definitely a big proponent of a psychological approach for a lot of Fellas. And "food addiction" is a controversial but rapidly growing area of research.

That said, important to state a psychological-only approach sadly isn't sufficient for the majority of people.

I've never looked for research on this, but the environmental & social pressures are definitely believable why they may produce this outcome. I also wonder how important selection effect is here for your Bondi Beach example.

It sounds like the medication is an important part of this plan. Is it something that you anticipate someone would take indefinitely, or only to get down to a target weight?

Also, can you give some ELI5 background on how the medication works in the body?

> Semaglutide, sold under the brand name Ozempic among others, is an anti-diabetic medication used for the treatment of type 2 diabetes and chronic weight management. [1]

> Semaglutide acts like human glucagon-like peptide-1 (GLP-1) such that it increases insulin secretion, thereby increasing sugar metabolism. It is distributed as a metered subcutaneous injection in a prefilled pen or as an oral form. One of its advantages over other antidiabetic drugs is that it has a long duration of action, thus, only once-a-week injection is sufficient. [1]

> Side effects including nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, abdominal pain, and constipation may occur. In people with heart problems, it can cause damage to the back of the eye (retinopathy). Side effects include kidney problems, diabetic retinopathy, allergic reactions, low blood sugar, and pancreatitis. [1]

> Warning: Risk of Thyroid C-Cell Tumors - In rodents semaglutide causes dose-dependent and treatment-duration-dependent thyroid C-cell tumors at clinically relevant exposures. It is unknown whether semaglutide causes thyroid C-cell tumors, including medullary thyroid carcinoma (MTC), in humans as human relevance of semaglutide-induced rodent thyroid C-cell tumors has not been determined. [2]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semaglutide

[2] https://www.drugs.com/sfx/semaglutide-side-effects.html

Yep Semaglutide is the key medication. Important to emphasize it appears to be a safe medication.
What is the evidence on safety? The side effects sound potentially pretty serious, and as if the likelihood goes up the longer you take it. If this has only been around for a couple years, I'm not sure I'd jump on this just yet. More details would be useful!
(Richie's co-founder here)

Semaglutide was FDA approved for diabetes in 2018 (3 years ago) and in June this year for weight management. It's part of a class of medication called GLP-1 RAs which operate in a similar way (they all stimulate the same GLP-1 receptor). Liraglutide is another common one that was approved by the FDA in 2010 (11 years ago) for diabetes (by the EU in 2009) and for weight management in 2014. So there is a 3 year of history with this particular medication and an 11 year history for this class of medication.

Here's more about the history of GLP-1s and other weight loss if you'd like: https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2021/02/15/gl...

The main side effects that people seem to get are nausea and vomiting when adjusting to the dose, this is likely due to the slowing down of food leaving your stomach. This is documented in the study of nearly two thousand people which lasted for 68 weeks here [1] (where you can also see the other side effects).

It's worth noting that, as with any medication, there is a cost-benefit trade-off. In this case it will depend on someone's current weight, what they've tried in the past, and the risks of other conditions e.g. heart disease, diabetes, and their past medical history. Each person that joins Fella has an in-depth discussion about this with an independent obesity physician and is welcome to speak it through with their own PCP too.

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2032183

Thanks for your candor. It would be interesting to see what positive effects can be achieved for what types of patients at various different dosing levels.

I'm not at a weight where I'd want to add additional cancer risk in order to lose weight, and unfortunately the data on this sort of incremental risk probably takes decades to be fully realized. Perhaps I'd feel comfortable taking a smaller dose if there were a shorter-than-ideal track record of people taking larger doses without much additional risk.

Agree it's early days in terms of longitudinal follow-up studies. We're looking forward to playing a part in those studies ourselves.
As mid-fifties person, I have a shorter "long term" than many readers on this site. :) For me, there are the very real and immediate risks of being overweight, versus a potential for longer term risks from the medication.
Well said. These are the kinds of nuanced conversations that our Fellas have with their doctor.
It's better to think of the medication as more similar to other medications taken for chronic conditions (e.g. hypertension) than a quick fix magic pill.

The papers show consistent weight loss for ~52 weeks, then plateauing off onto 68 weeks. If you suddenly stop taking the medication, the weight creeps back on. The research therefore suggests you can likely slowly taper off the medication after year 1, but with medical supervision to ensure that doesn't lead to weight gain. This is also why improved mindset & habits are also important.

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2032183

ELI5: increases satiety, decreases appetite.

(Richie's co-founder here)

> ELI5 for how it works in the body:

GLP-1 RAs such as Semaglutide are increasingly looking like the best class of medication for weight management [1]

GLP-1 RA = Glucagon-like peptide 1 receptor agonist.

These medications stimulates a receptor in your body which results in a reduction in body weight and three main effects: 1 - Slowing down gastric emptying so food stays in your stomach for longer (this is thought to be why there is sometimes nausea when starting the medication) 2 - Making you feel full by working on your central nervous system 3 - Managing glucose control (which is why it's used for people with diabetes too)

[1] gives you a great summary of the field up to now and how it works.

> Is it something that you anticipate someone would take indefinitely, or only to get down to a target weight?

This will depend on the person, whether they are also diabetic and how much weight they have to lose and is decided through a conversation with their obesity doctor. After around 12-months on these medications the weight loss plateaus (at an average of 15% body weight). If one stops the medication then but hasn't made any changes to their lifestyle they'll likely put the weight back on. But during the 12 months of the program we will be tackling the other factors with the coach: sleep, stress, nutrition. And so after the first year it might well make sense to reduce the medication or stop completely.

Let me know if you have any more questions.

[1] https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2021/02/15/gl...

I have done just about everything over the years to lose weight. I tend to exercise a ton naturally, so it has been more about eating less than exercising more. I would say that my natural weight is slightly overweight but not obese.

I've tried various brands of keto (Atkins/4 Hour Body), Weight Watchers, eating slowly, cutting out sugar and wheat, juice fasts. Everything has worked for a time, but the weight has eventually crept back. I have really good willpower, but I've read the research on willpower being a resource that you use up, and definitely agree with it.

For the past couple of months I have been on Noom. I have stuck to it, and I'm now thinner than I have been in a long time, but I'm a little bit skeptical that it's going to last long-term. But I'm getting married in less than 2 months, so I only need to stay where I am until the wedding, and then I can gain a few pounds.

> I've read the research on willpower being a resource that you use up, and definitely agree with it

I don't enjoy subjecting you to cognitive dissonance here...but some highly cited research shows this belief may be a self fulfilling prophecy.

> Study 1 found that individual differences in lay theories about willpower moderate ego-depletion effects: People who viewed the capacity for self-control as not limited did not show diminished self-control after a depleting experience. [1]

> Study 2 replicated the effect, manipulating lay theories about willpower. [1]

> Study 3 addressed questions about the mechanism underlying the effect. [1]

> Study 4, a longitudinal field study, found that theories about willpower predict change in eating behavior, procrastination, and self-regulated goal striving in depleting circumstances. [1]

> Taken together, the findings suggest that reduced self-control after a depleting task or during demanding periods may reflect people’s beliefs about the availability of willpower rather than true resource depletion. [1]

[1] Ego Depletion—Is It All in Your Head? Implicit Theories About Willpower Affect Self-Regulation http://icelab.psych.uw.edu.pl/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/job...

[2] Beliefs about willpower determine the impact of glucose on self-control https://www.pnas.org/content/pnas/110/37/14837.full.pdf

Interesting! Thanks for sharing.
Maybe the beliefs come from experiences of different 'types' and the types cause the beliefs?
Really smart to pick this. The econometrician in me smiled.
Hate to say it but marriage is a sure formula for men’s weight gain.
And any subsequent kids are an exponential... at least during lockdown for me
There's a lot going on in terms of the kids angle: increased stress, sleep deprivation, hormone changes, less time for exercise & healthy eating. Not easy.
"so I only need to stay where I am until the wedding, and then I can gain a few pounds" - this is interesting
Is it possible that you are at healthy weight for you? Because given lifestyle you described, it is quite possible.
Also agree it's definitely possible, although would need to know more about OP.