I think this is right. This is a major blow to Apple. If you look at the 10 games on the app store, revenue goes up by 1.8x for every placement. That meant that there are a few VERY profitable games, and it drops off very quickly. My bet is that its the same for non-game apps. If the App store is that tilted, then there are few developers representing most of the revenue, and they can afford setting up an alternative payment process, and the reduced fees for these companies will be significant. They have a lot of incentives to do it. If Apple loses half of the top 40 apps, to alternative payment systems, it will mean a significant amount of revenue lost.
> And, as the injunction reveals, the vast majority of App Store billings come from gaming. Games account for approximately 70 percent of the entire App Store’s revenue, and 98 percent of in-app purchase revenue. The App Store is a game store, and more specifically, it’s a game store for massive, free-to-play games that make nearly all of their money from in-app items.
On the other hand, Apple can remove those games from the top places in AppStore, which, these days, is horrible for discovery anyway. So money will flow to the new occupants of top spots.
My guess is they will just stop doing “Top” lists and do more categorised “Featured” lists and “App Spotlight”. I think the end result will be the same, exposure for the lucky developers and potentially increased revenue.
If there are other stores, antitrust no longer applies and Apple can feature whoever they want on their store front.
This could be a chicken-egg thing. If the top apps had no Apple payments perhaps they wouldn't be on the list. For an established games the discovery is probably less important though I'd imagine that lots of people buy apps just because they are top apps.
I think Apple knows the big blows are coming and they will most likely not come from the court but legislatively. I mean they are most likely going to lose badly in the EU anyway but the writting is on the wall regarding digital stores and restrained access to the NFC chip. Even if what they do is legal today, it will not stay that way. Considering that, it seems in their interest to milk the cow as long as they can.
I agree for the analysis on the EU side, I don't know for other countries but the fact that France had to cripple the covid app to get it accepted will strongly play against them in the future, that "show of power" on Apple side was a terrible mistake in my opinion.
Users yeah maybe, the government I don't think so. Remember that Apple was already viewed negatively due to the tax avoidance, now they are adding antitrust issues on top of tax issues.
I think you're exactly right - it's not that Apple can't see which way the wind is blowing, it's that they can still make billions more by dragging out the process and not giving an inch on anything they care about until absolutely forced to. Sure, it might not look great, but it takes a lot more than "bad optics" to persuade a company to willingly forego billions in profit.
Not sure that a no-compromises approach is good politics in the long term.
Politicians love to have easy targets as it deflects from their own failings. As the largest US company, Apple is the juiciest of low-hanging fruit already for their financial and tax arrangements, the last thing they need is to become antitrust public enemy No 1 as well.
Politicians may love to have easy targets, but they are going to have a hard time getting the public to care that they've reduced Apple's app store cut to 10% or something something walled gardens or something something encryption or whatever.
Nobody outside of tech cares very much about these issue. You can build your re-election campaign on "I stopped the big bad chemcorp from poisoning our children/I stopped the big bad environmentalists from killing jobs". You can't build a re-election campaign on beating up a target your constituents don't care either way about.
+1 I agree with you. Politicians will get better traction by going after FB for misinformation, AMZN for preventing unionization of workers. Outside the tech, there is very little ill-will in general public against Apple. Imo, even Microsoft had more ill-will in general public during it's antitrust issues.
Remember the Templars. What Apple is in danger of becoming is a very wealthy Pinata that nobody feels bad for when you hit it. Developing that kind of reputation can be existentially bad for an organization.
Nobody except Apple’s legions of fans and loyal customers. Only the predatory companies who salivate about exploiting those users are so eager for any chance to cut down the tall poppy.
I think the article is right that execs at Apple don't see it.
They are so used to being heroes and underdogs that it will be a major shock when they finally realize that people want to see them bleed over this. (Yes, I'm an Apple customer, I love some of their products.)
Same goes for Google and soon Microsoft (again).
There is a limit to how far one can abuse customers and developers and still be seen as the good guys
I think the execs see it, they're just betting that the billions of dollars they get now will be more than what they would get otherwise. I think they botched some decisions regarding Epic (revoking certs), but the overall strategy makes sense to me.
I think the end game for Epic and their owner Tencent is to get a foot in the door on iOS and Android to open it up to Chinese app stores, especially in markets outside of the U.S. This could potentially be good for developers, but at the same time having to support multiple app stores can get really tiresome.
I don't mind paying "The Apple Tax" on the typical 1-10 dollar one-off paid apps we had basically since 2008 or something, but if I'm going to do a recurring payment for something like Adobe Photoshop I might or might not be interested in using the App Store. For one I absolutely fucking hate everything surrounding subscriptions and Adobe and paying through Apple might save me a ton of hassle. But other companies might be able to offer a discount in a way that Apple cannot or doesn't want to, like cheaper upgrades for existing users.
Also no SAAS company outside of the app store is paying anywhere near 30% to their payments provider, so for something big ticket like that I'd expect them to charge a lot less if you're not buying through the App Store.
While StoreKit is one of the worst API’s in iOS to work with, it’s still cheaper to implement (and usually better) than what a lot of companies use or built themselves.
I can confirm this. I’ve been implementing App Store subscriptions this week and last.
The StoreKit (1.0) piece is easily the worst thing I’ve had to deal with in building the whole app. But I’d still rather do this than try to build the whole payment infrastructure on my own.
Here’s to hoping the new API they announced this year will be much nicer.
I personally dislike middleman parasites and thought the internet would allow people to directly do business with creators.
But then I have to admit the convenience of a single store.
I think Apple wants avoid a Trivalgo or Booking.com situation were people search for hotels but book a room directly on the hotel's own website for less.
I really can’t find a lot of places that are cheaper when booking through their own site, or even want to negotiate a deal on the phone. Apparently booking.com has them quite scared for breaking their “no lower price elsewhere” clause.
I don’t think the store is very convenient. Every time I search for something, the first item I get is something else. Usually the opposite of what I want. Sometimes the first few items that I get are something else. Also it’s slow on some of my devices for some reason.
I don’t understand these analyses. All it takes is someone with unlimited money? Gee, they’re really screwed now!!
Everything I’m reading here seems to underscore Apple’s position of strength. TFA closes by saying that what Apple is currently doing is “not a great look”. I’m sure their leadership is really quaking in their boots over that. Jeez.
There are a lot of Apple apologists who claim Apple's payment system is superior for the customer, but that just doesn't match my experience.
I don't subscribe to a lot of services, but I find that eg. subscribing and unsubscribing from Netflix is a much nicer experience than subscribing from something that uses Apple's service.
With Netflix, I know exactly where to subscribe and where to unsubscribe, and the terms are pretty clear.
Apple on the other hand makes it surprisingly hard to show your active subscriptions. On the Mac, I think you have to open the Music app and click on a bunch of links that I keep forgetting. Kinda weird when Apple is supposedly known for their ease of use.
It's also often unclear how it works. In one app I clicked "start 14 day trial", but ended up being charged for an annual subscription immediately. At first I was surprised, but then I thought maybe it was because I had apparently started the trial already a few years ago already. The buttons I tapped did not make that clear.
And some basic things are impossible with Apple's solution: Eg. charge the Apple Music subscription to a different bank account. Nope, with Apple all your subscriptions go to a single credit card.
I have never used an iPhone, but IIRC Neflix is the example people usually put as the "perfect" subcription & unsubscription workflows, as in they will make your life easy to unsubscribe and that has earned them a bunch of customers over the years. So it's a bit unfair to put "the best in class" as the alternative and saying it's not as good, when virtually every other subscription system is worse than Netflix.
Apple payments don't even need to be the best, they just need to be good enough since they are already the default and integrated with your phone.
i recently tried on spotify and disney plus as well, works like a charm.
The worst offenders in recent history were bloomberg (where i had to open a support case to cancel) and some other news publication. FT was the best experience in news publications. More and more services seem to be getting better in this.
Cancelling direct spotify subscription is actually full of dark patterns:
You click unsubscribe and are taken to new screen that presents you pricing plans and is worded in such way that you think you already unsubscribed. I actually thought so and almost thought that I'm done. But no, decided to check and saw that I'm still subscribed.
Turned out, there are THREE consecutive screens where you need to successfully pick the correct option to really unsubscribe.
its by no means perfect, but compared to others where you have to dig deep in an faq for a support number, call up (during business hours), go through 3 people who will try to sell you something else (once whilst trying to cancel a mobile contract because of a poor signal, I've even had accusations of not doing enough on my end to improve things), to then get to someone who will probably cancel your contract, its a step in the right direction at least
The problem is that it's completely a company's decision to make it easy to cancel and the vast majority of them make it as hard as they can.
Just a few examples: Xbox Live, you can sign up online but to cancel you have to call them and justify to them why you don't want to use their service anymore. Also had to do that to cancel a credit card recently. I've heard its even worse with companies like Adobe or like you mentioned, news publications.
As a customer, because of our bad consumer protection laws it makes me very hesitant to start a subscription with a new company and I vastly prefer doing it through Apple if I can.
With Apple, it's easy to see when you have a subscription active and to stop it from auto renewing. If cancel flows are getting easier it's probably due to pressure from this existing.
I also wanted to add, I think a lot of the value that Apple adds should actually be things that are regulated by our government. For example, you should be able to cancel a service the same way you signed up. And a lot of the privacy stuff Apple does should be enshrined into law.
It's pleasant as a consumer that at least one company operates this way, but it's terrible that most people don't even consider that our government should be the one doing this, not private companies.
Uh, are you sure that Xbox sub issue is still there? I've recently unsubbed from it just through their web UI. While it was kinda annoying to get through their menus, it wasn't particularly bad either.
Apple unsubscribe is pretty darn solid. Phone > Subscriptions > toggle to off.
Dear auto renewal app, get stuffed.
I use this feature often, and it’s excellent.
> I don't subscribe to a lot of services, but I find that eg. subscribing and unsubscribing from Netflix is a much nicer experience than subscribing from something that uses Apple's service.
Wtf. How easy does it have to be?
Come on, let’s be specific here instead of vague hand waving.
What exactly is this great unsubscribe service from Netflix that is better than a three step toggle?
Settings > subscriptions > Name > alter or cancel.
Out of curiosity, how would a good unsubscription flow earn Netflix a bunch of customers? It doesn't seem like people would recommend Netflix to others because it was easy for them to unsubscribe frequently enough for that to have any substantial effect or come back just because it was so easy to unsubscribe.
If you make me jump through hoops (and have interactive human contact) to unsubscribe, I'm never subscribing again.
On the other hand if I can just go "click" on website and the site goes "ok, your subscription ends at the end of this month". I'll most likely come back if there is some content I want to get to.
1. Because people who unsubscribe might come back again. If it's a hassle to unsubscribe, I'm never going to subscribe again. There are a few of companies that I had poor experience with, and I am never going to buy anything from again. While I currently don't have time for Netflix anymore doesn't mean I'm not going to subscribe again in a year or two.
2. I subscribed to Netflix because they had a reputation of being easy to subscribe / unsubscribe. I'm not going to subscribe to the New York Times because I've heard how hard they are to cancel. I have a subscription to a local newspaper, they even had ads mentioning how easy it is to start / stop their subscription.
Just signed up for a month of some service because it was non-recurring. There are services I haven't signed up for specifically because even though I'm ok to pay every month, the (hypothetical, but likely according to my priors) trouble to unsubscribe puts me off.
Beyond that, if someone's choosing between one of e.g. Netflix, Amazon Prime Video or Disney+, I imagine that it could make a difference.
I put my Netflix on hold all the time. If it was hard, I’d cancel forever.
Not sure what the OP is talking about with the Apple system. There is a Subscriptions section in your Apple ID.
But I like going through Apple because it’s all in one place and the content provider has no chance to try and dark patterns on me. Even if the Apple subscriptions is a slightly worse experience, if I can get all my subscriptions in one place and have the ability to cancel at will I’m going to chose that.
I can’t imagine what kind of minor benefit I’d get from using multiple cards and different subscriptions that would make it worth more than easy management.
> I can’t imagine what kind of minor benefit I’d get from using multiple cards and different subscriptions that would make it worth more than easy management.
I have a personal bank account, a business bank account for all business expenses, and a bank account shared with my significant other for household expenses.
I want to pay our shared Netflix and Spotify accounts from the family account, apps that I buy for business use on my business account, and things I buy for myself on my personal account.
I can't be the only person who has multiple bank accounts?
I absolutely remember the manipulative Amazon Prime workflow and it gives me pause every time I am offered a free trial because I know it's going to be a confusing pain to make sure I unsubscribe properly.
Think you'll be surprised how far the ideology of "the customer comes first" can take a company.
If it was easy for me to unsubscribe, I'm not going to worry much about re-subscribing later. If you put me through an hour of faffing about in the hopes I give up then why would I ever come back.
I don't subscribe to the NYT primarily because of the details I've heard of their unsubscribe flow (they've even built a better one to comply with california regulations, but geoblocked it outside of california)
Netflix makes it too easy to re-subscribe, though.
I cancelled it after one of the price hikes and a round of it suggesting nothing I wanted to watch, only to have it seemingly re-subscribe on it's own.
After a couple of rounds of that, I discovered that any TV still logged in could browse, pick a show, and would get a prompt to "continue membership" or something like that.
It was designed in such a way that the family was instinctively clicking through the message, not knowing what it was.
Anyway, forcing all sessions to sign out before the next cancellation did the trick.
As far as I understand, you need to change the app store country when you move internationally and have a bank account in another country. To keep purchases made before the move, you need to switch regions.
I believe that Apple could make this (using more than one country/locale for purchases/subscriptions) a lot better to switch between, but hasn't done so for a long time. I don't think Apple will focus on this anytime soon though.
I think the simpler workaround is to have multiple Apple ID/accounts, one for each country and linked to specific payment options. It still requires signing out and signing in, but it avoids restrictions (IIRC, something like 90 days) and the need to re-update payment information as with the other approach you mentioned. The subscriptions may not work when you're not signed in to the account associated with its country, but this is simpler than following many more steps.
I find it silly that Apple does not even consider switching between two countries as a use case that would apply for quite a number of people (it may be less in percentage terms, but surely a large enough number in absolute terms).
Banking applications are typically localized to the country. Dual citizens, or people with multiple residencies, typically have banking facilities in multiple countries.
This is obviously not the mainline use case, but to suggest that "no one" does this simply because you do not is obviously naive.
What's lost from requiring that Apple's system is an option without banning others? If needed, add some language about how you can't make it difficult for someone to cancel, and cancelling service effective immediately (as opposed to at the end of the billing cycle) requires a pro-rated refund. I'm generally pretty critical of what I would call Apple's paternalistic attitude, but I'm perfectly fine with something along those lines. And we'll see how many people are willing to pay how much of a premium for the Apple experience and guarantees.
> What's lost from requiring that Apple's system is an option without banning others?
Not much. While I defend the App Store monopoly, I see no reason for Apple to have a monopoly on in-app payments. I think it's atrocious that they aim to take a cut out of every subscription payment (versus, e.g., an up-front commission).
Was just pushing back on the claim that what's best for consumers would win in a payments free-for-all where app-developing companies (note: not necessarily developers) choose the payment provider.
>
Was just pushing back on the claim that what's best for consumers would win in a payments free-for-all where app-developing companies (note: not necessarily developers) choose the payment provider.
There are a lot of individual services that handle that better than Apple e.g Netflix. There is also that are much worse e.g New York Times. The big advantage with Apple is that you can unsubscribe without any dark patterns and that you have all (At least Appstore) subscriptions in one place instead of having to figure out how to cancel each individually.
I don't think Apple's payment system has a much better user experience then many other providers, however the major pro-consumer benefit it has imo is that everything is in one place. I've reached the stage where I'm happy to pay a 30% tax to not have to sign up for another bloody payment provider/subscription service and then have to remember how to cancel it or which card it's going through months later
That's fair, but for me it has reached the stage where I will avoid apps that try to tie me into yet another payment ecosystem that doesn't integrate with anything else. Apple's definitely has it's negatives but is also so far the most convenient/integrated one I've used so far
Apples system also allows customers who don’t have credit cards to pay by buying iTunes cards for cash at the store. In the Netherlands the cards are even often marked down.
Are the cards still marked down? That used to be a thing in the U.S. until Apple merged iTunes cards with Apple Store cards a few years ago so that these could be used in an Apple retail/online store to buy Apple hardware as well as used for buying software or content from the online stores. I haven't seen these cards marked down after the change. Before this, major holidays would bring about many sellers offering discounts on the iTunes cards.
Yeah sure because you don't have a choice LMAO. If a company advertised a price 30% lower than the price on the Apple store many, many people would take it convenience be damned.
And Apple knows it which is why they're fighting it tooth and nail.
I'm no particular Apple fan - I have issues with them and the list grows so I'm even considering moving away from their ecosystem. But a couple points strikes me as not accurate.
> On the Mac, I think you have to open the Music app and click on a bunch of links
Maybe there's a route like that, but at least today it's always under Apple ID management, and I find that quite logical.
On macOS it's under System Preferences -> Apple ID -> Media and Purchases -> Subscriptions: [Manage...] button. Don't have a phone at hand but it's very similar on iOS, somewhere under Settings -> Apple ID. I forgot the exact location but it's with some fairly obvious name, like "Purchases" or "Subscriptions", very hard to miss it.
Naturally, it requires learning where it is for the first time, but then it's fairly intuitive.
> In one app I clicked "start 14 day trial", but ended up being charged for an annual subscription immediately.
Hm. That's odd. Apps could be pretty deceptive and even outright scummy, but at least on iOS the system payment UI (the one where you have to double-tap the power button) was always very clear about how much and when exactly it would charge me.
I'm talking about my personal experience with Apple subscriptions. Maybe I am remembering something inaccurately, but that doesn't really matter. The only thing that matters is that I prefer other companies payment systems, and I really don't like that Apple tries to force their service that I don't want on me.
> On macOS it's under System Preferences -> Apple ID -> Media and Purchases -> Subscriptions: [Manage...] button.
I just tried that, and it didn't work. Just showed a spinner for a minute, and then opened the App Store home screen. Everything related to Apple ID is slow and unreliable for me, I don't know why they don't just have a simple web interface like every other company. (On a second attempt it worked.)
> Hm. That's odd. Apps could be pretty deceptive and even outright scummy, but at least on iOS the system payment UI (the one where you have to double-tap the power button) was always very clear about how much and when exactly it would charge me.
The system UI was accurate. The button before was not. For some reason I thought that the system UI showed the price AFTER the trial, so I confirmed the payment, thinking I could still cancel it for two weeks.
> With Netflix, I know exactly where to subscribe and where to unsubscribe
I guess what people like about Apple's IAP subscriptions is that while you might know this for Netflix, do you know it for every other subscription you might sign up for?
On the other hand I've had a 100% of my refund requests accepted by Apple without any issues.
Happened just last week when I rented a movie via Apple TV. The description was in my native language and I just clicked. Gathered the family around and saw that there was no audio or subtitles in my language.
I'm not so sure if I can do the same with Honest Bob's Movie Rental App, which has their own payment system.
Will they respect my Parental Control settings about no purchases too? Will they integrate with the "ask to buy" -setting built in to iOS?
> Will they respect my Parental Control settings about no purchases too? Will they integrate with the "ask to buy" -setting built in to iOS?
If they didn't, that would presumably be noted in user reviews and media comparisons, so they'd get lower ratings and people would know to avoid them. Or take that downside, if they see some other upside to the particular service that they feel compensates for the downside.
You know, like a market-based economy -- "capitalism" -- is supposed to work.
Ok so you don’t actually remember the UI but are certainly quick to criticise it. I don’t often subscribe/unsubscribe from apps either but I just then decided to try it myself to see if the UI is truly as dark as your post suggests. So on iOS the steps I took was:
“Let’s try the settings app”
“Ok at the top I’ve got my name and it says, ‘Apple ID, iCloud, Media & Purchases’
“Hmm purchases, let’s click that”
“Ok a list of options, fourth says ‘Subscriptions’ let’s try it”
“Oh hey here’s my apple one subscription, not so bad!”
Overall that seemed pretty sensible. Perhaps if they added ‘and subscriptions’ to your card at the top it’d be a bit clearer but it’s certainly not some horrible experience.
I am surprised to see Netflix being given as “ideal” subscription and payment method. I landed up canceling Netflix because of dark patterns they used.
I couldn’t cancel subscription from App, Netflix asks me to go to a URL to cancel.
When Netflix increased the price, the pop up in App forced you to select one of the increased priced plan, there was no button where you could just back out of pop up to decide later or wait till end of billing month. The two buttons were also confusing, I don’t recall exact words those button used now, but I was shocked when I selected one I thought let’s me wait, I received email confirming my acceptance to price increase. Being ex PM, I am pretty confident it had to do with KPI around price increase for executives and street.
I will take Apple subscription and payment system over Netflix’s any day and 100 times over. All subscription are tied to your Apple ID and display under your Apple ID.
Apple has the luxury of making these decisions for everyone. Their gobs of money come from elsewhere.
Netflix only has subscriptions. They think about them a lot.
The hubris of Apple is such that they think they can change the businesses of everyone around them. They want all businesses to wear turtlenecks, pay their 30%, and stop complaining about individual business needs.
Imagine how hostile it must be to also have the giant telling you how to do your subscriptions turn around and launch their own movie and tv streaming service!
I don't think it is no longer true that apple has a good UI. There is no option to view contacts in Mac OS Facetime app.The window management in Mac is subpar without downloading a third party app. The keyboard shortcuts do not work uniformly across all the apps...and more.
> Apple on the other hand makes it surprisingly hard to show your active subscriptions.
Bruh. Are you actually serious?
Settings → Apple ID / iCloud → Subscriptions
or
App Store → Your Account → Subscriptions
Such sUrPrIsInG, much hArD. In any case, if you feel that’s difficult now imagine how insurmountably Herculean it will become for you if you had to navigate the UX of multiple payment providers.
> There are a lot of Apple apologists who claim Apple's payment system is superior for the customer, but that just doesn't match my experience.
Apple has always immediately refunded me for shitty apps and scummy services, without question.
Meanwhile apps that provide their own payment systems, like Couchsurfing (who bait-and-switched users even after charging them a $100 “forever fee”), have yet to even reply to my requests for a refund.
Apple also lets me see all my recurring subscriptions from one place, warns me before renewals, and amazingly, lets me keep access to services for a few days even if I can’t make a payment on the renewal date.
So yeah. If you think predators like Epic and Match/Tinder and the countless microtransaction games (with their placebo IAPs and gambling boxes that do literally nothing at all sometimes) will be as accommodating, oh boy.
But of course user-hostile devs would root for nothing more than to tear down the walls protecting users.
> I don't subscribe to a lot of services, but I find that eg. subscribing and unsubscribing from Netflix is a much nicer experience than subscribing from something that uses Apple's service.
Yea too bad most companies don't work like Netflix. Using dark patterns is extremely common in subscription services. Apple makes dark patterns impossible.
Apple will definitely have to revisit the App Store economics. Obviously, more choice is great for both the user and the developer alike, but I am a bit worried about the future of the App Store access. In my opinion, the original brilliance of the App Store model was that trying is free and you pay on success. This is a stark contrast to previous models where the developer had to bring an often significant initial investment for listing/API licensing/accounting with the success being uncertain. IMO, the App Store model is what made small-time development possible. Whatever changes they implement to offset the revenue loss from the successful apps, I hope it will be just as easy (and free) to access the App Store in the future.
Apple may not make a lot of money from these high quality free/cheap apps from small development shops. But indirectly, that quality content is one of the reasons people buy an iOS device over an Android.
Crippling that is crippling their own bottom line and they know that all too well.
Maybe I’m completely off the mark but I feel that if Apple isn’t making good money on their stores, they will shorten their support period for their phones.
Apple will lose all incentive to makes sure their products last since their profit will come from selling new phones only - just like Android phone makers; right now Apple would rather you keep using an old iPhone and continue to give them money via the App Store than risk you switching to another brand and losing all revenue from you.
I quite like my phones lasting a long time - also more electronic waste isn’t good for anyone.
It is difficult to foresee the practical implication of these changes. Discussion about fairness notwithstanding, Apple‘s economic model had it’s simple elegance.
Frankly, I hope that they will decide to take the cut to their revenue and continue to operate the store at a lower profit, maybe even reducing the „tax“ to 10% across the board. This will be a hit to the shareholders, but who cares (I say it as a shareholder) at it will ensure that the ecosystem stays healthy. Apple should take this as an opportunity to improve the App Store instead of resting on their laurels. Also, I think the growth of the Mac business will more than offset the loss of the App Store revenue.
I doubt they will reduce their cut, alternative stores or not. If they are forced to allow 3rd party stores, I bet they will move immediately to the licensing model - like that used by Sony/Microsoft/Nintendo for their game consoles; i.e. if you want your app to run on the iPhone, you have have it signed by Apple and pay Apple a licensing fee per copy sold.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought this! It's like someone wrote the article designed solely to test bias confirmation. At the end of the article, I still don't know what apple lost, or what the author thinks that apple will have lost (other than "the war"). It didn't tell me what apple did win - other than "exactly what everyone knew they would win" - gee, thanks for that one.
I can't see what people are downvoting on this comment.
Basically, you cannot read that article without any bias on this topic and expect to have learned something new. Maybe if I followed all the links in it, that might explain the situation - but the links are:
- a series of tubes
- [the next battle of] Apple v. Epic.
- just maybe
- they need to say
- given the Japanese settlement
- continues
- real reforms to the App Store
- they’re a lot smarter
... etc. There is absolutely no context to this non-article, and no hints where to go to get the context.
Sorry. I usually try not to rant about the content that people put on the internet, but please HN community - you're usually much better at filtering the bull than this.
As someone who claims to be a writer, the author really should know better and not publish such low-value posts. Your point with the links makes it even clearer.
Whenever I see people whining about Apple I always think: just buy a fucking Android.
But then I read that in the US teens are practically bullied into suicide for not owning an iPhone so maybe it's not that simple? Apple never appealed to me in the slightest and there isn't an iMessage cult in Europe.
>Whenever I see people whining about Apple I always think: just buy a fucking Android.
B
It is not free to switch. I am not on Apple phones but I own a PlayStation, if/when Sony screws me over I can't move my swap my fingers and my PS4 transforms into an XBOX and my games are transferred. To switch over you need to sell your old device, buy a new one, then buy again most of the applications/games. If you have some cloud integration you will probably have to sort that out too, cancel subscriptions, move/backup your data etc.
On a different topic I think that if I pay the full price on a console then I own it and I should have the right to unlock it, they can ban me from multiplayer games if they can't trust the OS but I should have an unlock code.
I have problems with android, namely on data privacy (which until recently apple were the big player kings of in the mobile space). Switching isn't that easy, theres a lot of considerations and wins and losses you have to account for. For example, I wanted the increased privacy, I didn't want to lose type-c or the headphone jack. I might have eventually concided one thing or the other, but that takes time to decide.
As for the imessage issue, I don't think its as bad as suicide, but I too was absolutely shocked about how serious that was. I always knew about it as a joke but I thought it was just that. Even stranger, I've spoke to people with this attitude, and none of them were aware of the advantages (which there certainly are) of an imessage only chat. Its purely about the bubbles and their colour. Absolutely mad
The judge ruled that it is ok for Apple to set and enforce their App Store guidelines. Remember that. Apple nuked Epic for running an unauthorized payment processing flow. And it was ok.
Apple is now forced to allow other payment processors into their ecosystem. But there is nothing in that ruling that says Apple can't make guidelines on payment processors and that Apple can't enforce them.
You had better believe that Apple is going to make a bunch of "consumer friendly" rules about transparency, data privacy, refunds, subscription cancellations, etc. And they are going to enforce them with no mercy, because the judge said that it is legal.
Also, don't be surprised if the "Free with in-app purchase" apps now have to pay Apple for bandwidth at whatever the prevailing AWS/Azure egress charges are. But that will be waived for using the Apple payment processor.
Yep, Apple exploits holes in everything. Remember when Europe tried to introduce one charging port standard? Apple got around it by selling the shittiest most flimsy and easily broken microUSB to Lightning adapter known to man. If Apple can give EU such a middle finger, you better believe the third-party payment link ruling will have every hole in it exploited to the fullest to preserve revenue and show app developers their place. And Epic will be sscrewedwith even more, including Unreal for Apple's platforms.
But I feel like these IT monopolies won't hold for more than 30-50 years.
As someone in an Apple device dominated family with none of my own, my complaints are simple:
* there's no way to get itemized billing without an Apple device.
* credit card charge descriptions are completely useless
* no "hey your X subscription is about to renew" notifications, 100% a dark pattern
* only one payment method allowed, even in a family account (also, whole family ecosystem is underbaked, but this is true for just about every major company ... a real potential moat)
* just extremely poor support over all, linkrot in their community posts about billing, billing inquiries on a PC go to reportaproblem.apple.com and suppory ticket style interface ..
I could go on, it definitely feels more like malice than incompetence - a form of cheery neglect.
> * no "hey your X subscription is about to renew" notifications, 100% a dark pattern
I'm not sure what you mean here, I absolutely get emails from Apple notifying me of subscription confirmations, renewal confirmations and expiration/cancelation confirmations.
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[ 2.6 ms ] story [ 173 ms ] threadOT: Where can you see this kind of data?
> And, as the injunction reveals, the vast majority of App Store billings come from gaming. Games account for approximately 70 percent of the entire App Store’s revenue, and 98 percent of in-app purchase revenue. The App Store is a game store, and more specifically, it’s a game store for massive, free-to-play games that make nearly all of their money from in-app items.
Source: https://www.theverge.com/2021/9/10/22667047/apple-epic-rulin...
Oh… It's the kind of games I never download if I see smattering of gems/crowns/coins in the IAP's.
If there are other stores, antitrust no longer applies and Apple can feature whoever they want on their store front.
Politicians love to have easy targets as it deflects from their own failings. As the largest US company, Apple is the juiciest of low-hanging fruit already for their financial and tax arrangements, the last thing they need is to become antitrust public enemy No 1 as well.
Nobody outside of tech cares very much about these issue. You can build your re-election campaign on "I stopped the big bad chemcorp from poisoning our children/I stopped the big bad environmentalists from killing jobs". You can't build a re-election campaign on beating up a target your constituents don't care either way about.
Nobody except Apple’s legions of fans and loyal customers. Only the predatory companies who salivate about exploiting those users are so eager for any chance to cut down the tall poppy.
They are so used to being heroes and underdogs that it will be a major shock when they finally realize that people want to see them bleed over this. (Yes, I'm an Apple customer, I love some of their products.)
Same goes for Google and soon Microsoft (again).
There is a limit to how far one can abuse customers and developers and still be seen as the good guys
The StoreKit (1.0) piece is easily the worst thing I’ve had to deal with in building the whole app. But I’d still rather do this than try to build the whole payment infrastructure on my own.
Here’s to hoping the new API they announced this year will be much nicer.
I think Apple wants avoid a Trivalgo or Booking.com situation were people search for hotels but book a room directly on the hotel's own website for less.
Nothing less will make a dent.
Independent and "small" developers - even many large developers have zero chance fighting the injustices of the tech giants.
Everything I’m reading here seems to underscore Apple’s position of strength. TFA closes by saying that what Apple is currently doing is “not a great look”. I’m sure their leadership is really quaking in their boots over that. Jeez.
I don't subscribe to a lot of services, but I find that eg. subscribing and unsubscribing from Netflix is a much nicer experience than subscribing from something that uses Apple's service.
With Netflix, I know exactly where to subscribe and where to unsubscribe, and the terms are pretty clear.
Apple on the other hand makes it surprisingly hard to show your active subscriptions. On the Mac, I think you have to open the Music app and click on a bunch of links that I keep forgetting. Kinda weird when Apple is supposedly known for their ease of use.
It's also often unclear how it works. In one app I clicked "start 14 day trial", but ended up being charged for an annual subscription immediately. At first I was surprised, but then I thought maybe it was because I had apparently started the trial already a few years ago already. The buttons I tapped did not make that clear.
And some basic things are impossible with Apple's solution: Eg. charge the Apple Music subscription to a different bank account. Nope, with Apple all your subscriptions go to a single credit card.
Apple payments don't even need to be the best, they just need to be good enough since they are already the default and integrated with your phone.
The worst offenders in recent history were bloomberg (where i had to open a support case to cancel) and some other news publication. FT was the best experience in news publications. More and more services seem to be getting better in this.
You click unsubscribe and are taken to new screen that presents you pricing plans and is worded in such way that you think you already unsubscribed. I actually thought so and almost thought that I'm done. But no, decided to check and saw that I'm still subscribed.
Turned out, there are THREE consecutive screens where you need to successfully pick the correct option to really unsubscribe.
Just a few examples: Xbox Live, you can sign up online but to cancel you have to call them and justify to them why you don't want to use their service anymore. Also had to do that to cancel a credit card recently. I've heard its even worse with companies like Adobe or like you mentioned, news publications.
As a customer, because of our bad consumer protection laws it makes me very hesitant to start a subscription with a new company and I vastly prefer doing it through Apple if I can.
With Apple, it's easy to see when you have a subscription active and to stop it from auto renewing. If cancel flows are getting easier it's probably due to pressure from this existing.
It's pleasant as a consumer that at least one company operates this way, but it's terrible that most people don't even consider that our government should be the one doing this, not private companies.
The question is, if Netflix is "best in class" and makes users happy, why isn't Apple on that level. There really isn't any excuse.
Apple unsubscribe is pretty darn solid. Phone > Subscriptions > toggle to off.
Dear auto renewal app, get stuffed.
I use this feature often, and it’s excellent.
> I don't subscribe to a lot of services, but I find that eg. subscribing and unsubscribing from Netflix is a much nicer experience than subscribing from something that uses Apple's service.
Wtf. How easy does it have to be?
Come on, let’s be specific here instead of vague hand waving.
What exactly is this great unsubscribe service from Netflix that is better than a three step toggle?
Settings > subscriptions > Name > alter or cancel.
>> Come on, let’s be specific here instead of vague hand waving.
> But you're welcome to kma
Well, that about sums up the thoughtful discussion of people saying how bad Apple pay is right there.
On the other hand if I can just go "click" on website and the site goes "ok, your subscription ends at the end of this month". I'll most likely come back if there is some content I want to get to.
2. I subscribed to Netflix because they had a reputation of being easy to subscribe / unsubscribe. I'm not going to subscribe to the New York Times because I've heard how hard they are to cancel. I have a subscription to a local newspaper, they even had ads mentioning how easy it is to start / stop their subscription.
Beyond that, if someone's choosing between one of e.g. Netflix, Amazon Prime Video or Disney+, I imagine that it could make a difference.
Not sure what the OP is talking about with the Apple system. There is a Subscriptions section in your Apple ID.
But I like going through Apple because it’s all in one place and the content provider has no chance to try and dark patterns on me. Even if the Apple subscriptions is a slightly worse experience, if I can get all my subscriptions in one place and have the ability to cancel at will I’m going to chose that.
I can’t imagine what kind of minor benefit I’d get from using multiple cards and different subscriptions that would make it worth more than easy management.
I have a personal bank account, a business bank account for all business expenses, and a bank account shared with my significant other for household expenses.
I want to pay our shared Netflix and Spotify accounts from the family account, apps that I buy for business use on my business account, and things I buy for myself on my personal account.
I can't be the only person who has multiple bank accounts?
There is also people that might be put off if the process is notorious for being unfriendly or cumbersome
How much this affects subscriber numbers is a different story altogether.
If it was easy for me to unsubscribe, I'm not going to worry much about re-subscribing later. If you put me through an hour of faffing about in the hopes I give up then why would I ever come back.
I cancelled it after one of the price hikes and a round of it suggesting nothing I wanted to watch, only to have it seemingly re-subscribe on it's own.
After a couple of rounds of that, I discovered that any TV still logged in could browse, pick a show, and would get a prompt to "continue membership" or something like that.
It was designed in such a way that the family was instinctively clicking through the message, not knowing what it was.
Anyway, forcing all sessions to sign out before the next cancellation did the trick.
- Change your country/region
- Be forced to add a new credit card, regardless of how many times you've done this before
- Attempt to load your subscriptions, and receive a "Cannot Connect" error no matter how many times you try
- Restart your phone because its the only thing that seems to resolve this
- Successfully manage your subscriptions now that they will load
- Repeat the entire process again to get back to your original locale
This...could be easier.
I haven't heard of this. Is it a supported case by Apple?
I think the simpler workaround is to have multiple Apple ID/accounts, one for each country and linked to specific payment options. It still requires signing out and signing in, but it avoids restrictions (IIRC, something like 90 days) and the need to re-update payment information as with the other approach you mentioned. The subscriptions may not work when you're not signed in to the account associated with its country, but this is simpler than following many more steps.
I find it silly that Apple does not even consider switching between two countries as a use case that would apply for quite a number of people (it may be less in percentage terms, but surely a large enough number in absolute terms).
This is obviously not the mainline use case, but to suggest that "no one" does this simply because you do not is obviously naive.
It’s great for consumers. It isn’t great for companies developing apps.
Not much. While I defend the App Store monopoly, I see no reason for Apple to have a monopoly on in-app payments. I think it's atrocious that they aim to take a cut out of every subscription payment (versus, e.g., an up-front commission).
Was just pushing back on the claim that what's best for consumers would win in a payments free-for-all where app-developing companies (note: not necessarily developers) choose the payment provider.
Competition does bring prices down we have much proof.
That's fair, and FWIW I agree.
It's a 43% tax.
You will need a 42.9% markup to counteract the 30% cut.
And Apple knows it which is why they're fighting it tooth and nail.
> On the Mac, I think you have to open the Music app and click on a bunch of links
Maybe there's a route like that, but at least today it's always under Apple ID management, and I find that quite logical.
On macOS it's under System Preferences -> Apple ID -> Media and Purchases -> Subscriptions: [Manage...] button. Don't have a phone at hand but it's very similar on iOS, somewhere under Settings -> Apple ID. I forgot the exact location but it's with some fairly obvious name, like "Purchases" or "Subscriptions", very hard to miss it.
Naturally, it requires learning where it is for the first time, but then it's fairly intuitive.
> In one app I clicked "start 14 day trial", but ended up being charged for an annual subscription immediately.
Hm. That's odd. Apps could be pretty deceptive and even outright scummy, but at least on iOS the system payment UI (the one where you have to double-tap the power button) was always very clear about how much and when exactly it would charge me.
I'm talking about my personal experience with Apple subscriptions. Maybe I am remembering something inaccurately, but that doesn't really matter. The only thing that matters is that I prefer other companies payment systems, and I really don't like that Apple tries to force their service that I don't want on me.
> On macOS it's under System Preferences -> Apple ID -> Media and Purchases -> Subscriptions: [Manage...] button.
I just tried that, and it didn't work. Just showed a spinner for a minute, and then opened the App Store home screen. Everything related to Apple ID is slow and unreliable for me, I don't know why they don't just have a simple web interface like every other company. (On a second attempt it worked.)
> Hm. That's odd. Apps could be pretty deceptive and even outright scummy, but at least on iOS the system payment UI (the one where you have to double-tap the power button) was always very clear about how much and when exactly it would charge me.
The system UI was accurate. The button before was not. For some reason I thought that the system UI showed the price AFTER the trial, so I confirmed the payment, thinking I could still cancel it for two weeks.
I guess what people like about Apple's IAP subscriptions is that while you might know this for Netflix, do you know it for every other subscription you might sign up for?
Happened just last week when I rented a movie via Apple TV. The description was in my native language and I just clicked. Gathered the family around and saw that there was no audio or subtitles in my language.
I'm not so sure if I can do the same with Honest Bob's Movie Rental App, which has their own payment system.
Will they respect my Parental Control settings about no purchases too? Will they integrate with the "ask to buy" -setting built in to iOS?
If they didn't, that would presumably be noted in user reviews and media comparisons, so they'd get lower ratings and people would know to avoid them. Or take that downside, if they see some other upside to the particular service that they feel compensates for the downside.
You know, like a market-based economy -- "capitalism" -- is supposed to work.
“Let’s try the settings app” “Ok at the top I’ve got my name and it says, ‘Apple ID, iCloud, Media & Purchases’ “Hmm purchases, let’s click that” “Ok a list of options, fourth says ‘Subscriptions’ let’s try it” “Oh hey here’s my apple one subscription, not so bad!”
Overall that seemed pretty sensible. Perhaps if they added ‘and subscriptions’ to your card at the top it’d be a bit clearer but it’s certainly not some horrible experience.
I find that to be a great user experience personally.
I couldn’t cancel subscription from App, Netflix asks me to go to a URL to cancel.
When Netflix increased the price, the pop up in App forced you to select one of the increased priced plan, there was no button where you could just back out of pop up to decide later or wait till end of billing month. The two buttons were also confusing, I don’t recall exact words those button used now, but I was shocked when I selected one I thought let’s me wait, I received email confirming my acceptance to price increase. Being ex PM, I am pretty confident it had to do with KPI around price increase for executives and street.
I will take Apple subscription and payment system over Netflix’s any day and 100 times over. All subscription are tied to your Apple ID and display under your Apple ID.
Netflix only has subscriptions. They think about them a lot.
The hubris of Apple is such that they think they can change the businesses of everyone around them. They want all businesses to wear turtlenecks, pay their 30%, and stop complaining about individual business needs.
Imagine how hostile it must be to also have the giant telling you how to do your subscriptions turn around and launch their own movie and tv streaming service!
I'm really rooting for Epic here, but people can like a thing without being apologists. That word isn't helping the debate.
Bruh. Are you actually serious?
Settings → Apple ID / iCloud → Subscriptions
or
App Store → Your Account → Subscriptions
Such sUrPrIsInG, much hArD. In any case, if you feel that’s difficult now imagine how insurmountably Herculean it will become for you if you had to navigate the UX of multiple payment providers.
> There are a lot of Apple apologists who claim Apple's payment system is superior for the customer, but that just doesn't match my experience.
Apple has always immediately refunded me for shitty apps and scummy services, without question.
Meanwhile apps that provide their own payment systems, like Couchsurfing (who bait-and-switched users even after charging them a $100 “forever fee”), have yet to even reply to my requests for a refund.
Apple also lets me see all my recurring subscriptions from one place, warns me before renewals, and amazingly, lets me keep access to services for a few days even if I can’t make a payment on the renewal date.
So yeah. If you think predators like Epic and Match/Tinder and the countless microtransaction games (with their placebo IAPs and gambling boxes that do literally nothing at all sometimes) will be as accommodating, oh boy.
But of course user-hostile devs would root for nothing more than to tear down the walls protecting users.
The same option is also available in the App Store app as well. Where else exactly would you prefer it to be?
Yea too bad most companies don't work like Netflix. Using dark patterns is extremely common in subscription services. Apple makes dark patterns impossible.
Crippling that is crippling their own bottom line and they know that all too well.
Apple will lose all incentive to makes sure their products last since their profit will come from selling new phones only - just like Android phone makers; right now Apple would rather you keep using an old iPhone and continue to give them money via the App Store than risk you switching to another brand and losing all revenue from you.
I quite like my phones lasting a long time - also more electronic waste isn’t good for anyone.
Frankly, I hope that they will decide to take the cut to their revenue and continue to operate the store at a lower profit, maybe even reducing the „tax“ to 10% across the board. This will be a hit to the shareholders, but who cares (I say it as a shareholder) at it will ensure that the ecosystem stays healthy. Apple should take this as an opportunity to improve the App Store instead of resting on their laurels. Also, I think the growth of the Mac business will more than offset the loss of the App Store revenue.
Two points:
- "the judge’s order to stop App Store anti-steering is a big one"
- "bad vibes yielding bad blood within Apple’s own developer community"
Rest is just filler.
I can't see what people are downvoting on this comment.
Basically, you cannot read that article without any bias on this topic and expect to have learned something new. Maybe if I followed all the links in it, that might explain the situation - but the links are:
- a series of tubes
- [the next battle of] Apple v. Epic.
- just maybe
- they need to say
- given the Japanese settlement
- continues
- real reforms to the App Store
- they’re a lot smarter
... etc. There is absolutely no context to this non-article, and no hints where to go to get the context.
Sorry. I usually try not to rant about the content that people put on the internet, but please HN community - you're usually much better at filtering the bull than this.
But then I read that in the US teens are practically bullied into suicide for not owning an iPhone so maybe it's not that simple? Apple never appealed to me in the slightest and there isn't an iMessage cult in Europe.
It is not free to switch. I am not on Apple phones but I own a PlayStation, if/when Sony screws me over I can't move my swap my fingers and my PS4 transforms into an XBOX and my games are transferred. To switch over you need to sell your old device, buy a new one, then buy again most of the applications/games. If you have some cloud integration you will probably have to sort that out too, cancel subscriptions, move/backup your data etc.
On a different topic I think that if I pay the full price on a console then I own it and I should have the right to unlock it, they can ban me from multiplayer games if they can't trust the OS but I should have an unlock code.
As for the imessage issue, I don't think its as bad as suicide, but I too was absolutely shocked about how serious that was. I always knew about it as a joke but I thought it was just that. Even stranger, I've spoke to people with this attitude, and none of them were aware of the advantages (which there certainly are) of an imessage only chat. Its purely about the bubbles and their colour. Absolutely mad
Apple is now forced to allow other payment processors into their ecosystem. But there is nothing in that ruling that says Apple can't make guidelines on payment processors and that Apple can't enforce them.
You had better believe that Apple is going to make a bunch of "consumer friendly" rules about transparency, data privacy, refunds, subscription cancellations, etc. And they are going to enforce them with no mercy, because the judge said that it is legal.
Also, don't be surprised if the "Free with in-app purchase" apps now have to pay Apple for bandwidth at whatever the prevailing AWS/Azure egress charges are. But that will be waived for using the Apple payment processor.
But I feel like these IT monopolies won't hold for more than 30-50 years.
* there's no way to get itemized billing without an Apple device.
* credit card charge descriptions are completely useless
* no "hey your X subscription is about to renew" notifications, 100% a dark pattern
* only one payment method allowed, even in a family account (also, whole family ecosystem is underbaked, but this is true for just about every major company ... a real potential moat)
* just extremely poor support over all, linkrot in their community posts about billing, billing inquiries on a PC go to reportaproblem.apple.com and suppory ticket style interface ..
I could go on, it definitely feels more like malice than incompetence - a form of cheery neglect.
I'm not sure what you mean here, I absolutely get emails from Apple notifying me of subscription confirmations, renewal confirmations and expiration/cancelation confirmations.