Ask HN: I feel so shallow and dumb when I see what other smart people are doing
At that point, I realized how mediocre and untalented I was. Nothing I’m doing in my life are anything that people will remember me for. Throughout my life, I’ve seen many awe inspiring projects done by extremely talented people, way more intelligent than I am, come to fruition. Over the years, I realized how shallow and dumb I really am. I’m uninteresting.
Most of my career revolved around software development, something that I’ve done since I was 17 (now I'm 30) until a few years ago. I found myself writing entreprise software usually in the backend and that’s all I really knew except for some server administration and scripting sprinkled on top. Sat beside me were full-stack developers with expertise in DevOps as well. They knew how to do everything I could on top of so much else. As for me, I can barely write basic HTML pages.
I meet with incredibly smart people with master’s degrees and PhDs knowing so much about their field of expertise while I’m a University drop-out. People who know world history so well while being able to talk about the hard problem of consciousness at the same time. YouTubers and Twitch streamers who are so talented at playing games and entertaining us along the way.
There’s people who have paved the way for innovation and foresight that I don’t have at all. Those who make so much money due to their talents and bringing them to life in this world of ours. I’ve watched so many documentaries about all sorts of people from racing drivers, to game developers, comedians, data science experts, cybersecurity nuts, music producers, video editors, documentaries makers and so much more. These are all things that come to mind thinking that I’ll never be able to do any of that.
I’m mostly a self-taught person teaching myself skills as I go along with my life. I generally don’t pick up much except for a few facts that I can repeat to others. I can barely do derivatives anymore in math or draw like I used to. My talents are shallow and honestly quite useless.
Today, I don’t do much with my life other than binging on YouTube documentaries and reading Wikipedia articles not helping my case. My motivation for learning is shrinking slowly and would much rather stare out of the window while I’m not doing my obligatory 8 hours of daily work.
Now, I’m an unimportant technical writer composing documents for developers and users. There’s no path for career growth if I stay in this specialty. My work doesn’t feel like it takes much talent and I was hired a few times without having any credentials in business writing.
I’ve been told by previous managers that I’m always in “learning mode” and quite “creative” but I can’t convince myself that these traits are actually true. I feel untalented, empty and dumb.
My dreams do exist but they starting to seem more and more superficial. There’s a lot of subjects and activities that I’m really interested of getting into but I can’t just dive into it. I blame it on the lack of time and laziness but I have strong time management skills and can conjure up much empty slots in my schedule. I sometimes wonder if my mental condition or my medication has had an effect on this: I'm bipolar schizoaffective and borderline.
343 comments
[ 3.1 ms ] story [ 285 ms ] threadMost software projects are forgotten pretty quickly though, so if you're looking for a longer impact on life in general, consider the community you live in. plant a tree. clean a highway. Software dev is ephemeral, and most software rockstars aren't even known outside a small circle.
you arent alone, i think that is an impressive and time consuming feat.
OP, youre in a much better place now skillwise then back at 17, sounds like youre unchallenged at work and maybe burnt out. Take some time off to contemplate what youd like to do, open all the possibilities that interest you. Remember you arent starting over, you have a relevant skillset already. Maybe build some personal projects of any kind, to remind yourself how fun building things can be and your motivation may return.
that plus ensure youre getting daily exercise and sleeping well. Motivation follows those almost automatically at times for me. If i feel fulfilled, i have more energy
- https://www.verywellmind.com/imposter-syndrome-and-social-an...
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impostor_syndrome
- https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/imposter-syndrome
Long story short: If you're hitting your goals and getting paid, don't sweat the extracurriculars.
"There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self.
― Ernest Hemingway"
If you looked back on work you did five years ago and didn't see room for improvement ... you've had no growth in your skills and experience.
That’s gotten better for me in recent years, but I suppose that means I’ve somewhat plateaued. Either way you can’t win.
It's like saying "once you're happy, you're no longer depressed".
It has done its rounds, but still enjoy watching this: https://www.ted.com/talks/derek_sivers_how_to_start_a_moveme...
Comparing yourself to others is a fool's errand. Never goes well.
If that quote is about trying to win the race, then OP is lamenting being miles behind the leaders. The feeling of not pulling your own weight is a different sadness from "oh no I can't be the best".
Those people you find so incredibly impressive who have done such worthwhile things? Every single one of them sucks ass at a multitude of things. Every single one of them would see something in your set of capabilities that would astound them.
It takes a vast constellation of capabilities, including yours, to create and sustain our world.
Eight digit mental multiplication isn't a difficult feat. All it requires is you to be able to hold 16 digits in your head. Or more easily, 4 chunks of 4 digits. If you practice and focus on it, you too can relearn how to do long mental arithmetic. But this also requires you're still able to "relax" and empty your mind like a child's, rather than be constricted into an adult's neurotic "I must always be doing something."
Holding conversations in multiple languages? Many bilingual children could join von Neumann, if their parents were as wealthy and involved. Wealth must be present; not only because physical resources give way to access to better tutors and learning material, but also to a tranquility of the mind and soul, that is not found anywhere else but the leisure class (i.e. if you're an upper middle class parent trying to "push" your child into enriching endeavors, all you're teaching is mechanical skill, at the cost of your child's creativity and individual expression -- their soul. Something I've seen too many times).
This is also why anyone who's been in the corporate world for too long, is forever locked out of any great creative or mental achievements: the mental tools needed have atrophied, and it simply is unlikely you'll be able to retrain them, unless some drastic lifestyle change happens (or you do just the right amount of drugs, another improbability).
t. Someone that could also do very long mental arithmetic and "hold conversations" in multiple languages at 6. Going from upper class to being a prole, due to a certain ideological group, has left me painly aware of all the things I've lost. Pieces of the mind and soul that are locked away from the rest; all due to economic circumstance.
Can you explain this?
Maybe a unique perspective or a deeply ingrained and unflappable "lets try this or how does this work?" attitude is all it takes.
Stay curious!
Well, that's sure a bold statement. I suppose in order to have this discussion, we'd have to agree on a definition of intelligence. For me, it's one's intellectual capacity to learn. Emotionally, physically, mathematically, etc. I'd argue that there is absolutely a thing of "raw intelligence". If we have mentally handicapped and Stephen Hawking, there must be a standard bell curve of intelligence in-between.
However, after re-reading my comment I was a little unclear. When I said: “Intelligence isn’t general it’s specific“ I should have said: “My (And I think others as well) definition of intelligence is how well educated you are in a specific subject. I would never ask someone how smart they are (not useful) but I could ask if they are good at calculus (intelligence in math)”
The things I need to do better are sleep better and exercise more.
Counseling helps address some of these feelings but only go so far to motivate one to take care of themselves...
Don’t get me wrong. I know a little about a lot. Mostly things that are of no value whatsoever, and only enough to make me sound like I have some level of expertise. But if I real expert stepped in I’d likely get schooled immediately (as had happened many times).
I don’t think I’ll be able to do more with my career in software than I already have, nor drive it in the direction I’d like. And frankly, I’m getting tired of the “a little more money, same bullshit” stuff. I still have love for programming, but the way I inherently approach it and work are just not going to ever get me anywhere.
I too, have spent some years bouncing across a handful of interests, typically only to find out I don’t have what it takes to even get a few inches deep into it (whether that be cognitive ability,focus, or whatever). I’ve seriously thought about going into academia for a bit to get the thrill of working on edge of something, hoping that the structure and resources provided might show me something new, but that’s mostly because of the implementation), but it feels like a distant pipe dream more than anything. By the time I’d be able to do to, I’d likely be to old to fit the profile of what that type of organization wants from somebody, and me doing anything remotely novel or innovative feels so alien. I don’t even want recognition or immortalization, or even money really. I just want to have worked on something that I’m proud of.
It reminds me of drawing advice, people always want to know how to get better at drawing, and the answer inevitably is just "practice more", I'd bet drawing skill matches very closely to "time spent drawing" and programming is probably the same way too.
From the incredible empathy my partner has towards colleagues going through personal situations (when many literally wouldn't care, let alone waste brain juice), to those smart programmers committing to open source whilst struggling to make ends meet when they could easily get a high-paying job, to those mustering the strength to work three jobs to pay bills, and so the list goes.
There's always somebody different doing great. To quote the great J Cole — "love yourz"
YMMV but this works for me…
Have an interest in some topic? Develop that interest, deliberately. Build it into a passion over time. Allot a small amount of time every day to learn and think about it. Everything we love to do has an ugly side. Embrace it. Accept it as the cost of doing what you love/want to do. Most of the time spent developing skills and interests can feel like complete drudgery. Or it can feel like a journey, with moments of enlightenment along the way.
If at all possible, never let your personal situation be an excuse for feeling this way. Just go for it!
Edit: a word
* Compare and despair.
* What good do these thoughts and emotions do you? Yes of course perhaps you need these feelings to be driven to achieve what you want. But if you dwell on them for too long then you'll just waste more years not doing the things that you really feel to be meaningful, and then you'll be in an even deeper hole.
* Furthermore I'm skeptical that these "compare and despair" thoughts really will succeed in driving most people to "go out there and make it happen". I personally have found it much more invigorating and inspiring to acknowledge/praise/bless my fellow people. "Wow! They created that. Good for them. What can I learn from them?" Yes I know this reeks of "growth mindset" lingo but it works. At minimum it's a thought/emotion pattern that makes me not miserable day-to-day.
Also it's very interesting that you're a technical writer! I have been one myself for 9 years. At first I had major inferiority complex to engineers. I wonder if it's a common problem that is maybe specific to our field? Happy to chat about our industry 1 on 1 if you think that will help. Find my contact on my website (link in bio).
And last I will say that I know sometimes people just need to vent and need support so I feel a bit rude giving unsolicited advice to strangers. But this is a forum and I only share my thoughts in the spirit of hoping that something clicks for someone and helps them breakthrough.
Go through this Twitter account and if anything resonates with you, I definitely recommend reading the book.
https://twitter.com/masteryquotes
Envy is a capricious emotion.
You have the ability convey complicated concepts in a concise manner. You can do so much with that. Is there something in your tech world that you're interested in, that's hard to grasp, that you could start your own blog/YouTube/ebook/course with? Perhaps you'll become the goto expert on it.
I often wonder how the oracles in our industry get to where they are, and everyone starts and persists - often for years - before being recognised as such. Small consistent progress over a long period of time is what makes an overnight success.
Each and every person you admire has poured thousands of hours into some project. For some that's a degree. For some it's a game they wrote, for others it's company that they've started...
Have you done that? Spent thousands of hours on a single thing? Focused on a project long enough to actually see results? I'm guessing not, because if you would have then this would have been a Show HN post.
Ask yourself why you are content with doing anything besides the one thing that you should do: Commit to some project and don't give up until it is done?
You are not being brutally honest, you are just trying to crash this party with your own particular mindset.
Many people have different sensibilities and tastes. Those that become great alone are extremely talented, gifted and innately know what to filter and how to improve.
Most of us do need some guidance and there's not enough hours of piano playing for us regular folks to discover all of the learning tricks with which we become insanely good.
Programming is hard and just putting in the hours won't help that much, especially now when the whole internet is polluted with unnecessary stuff.
Yes, achieving "greatness" is sadly not in the cards for most of us. But to try is a choice anyone can make. In the end, would you rather have tried and failed or not tried at all?
If you have that belief, sometimes the way to get out of it is to play it out to conclusion.
I've been playing guitar for 16 years. I'm not pro-level, but I'm as good as I want to be and I love it. Did I love it from the get go? Hell no. I actually hated guitar for the entire first year of practice, but I stuck with it and as I got better I eventually developed a deep love for it.
Trying new things, REALLY trying for long enough to actually get somewhere, is a risk. Question is, are you willing to take such a risk? Or would you rather do the alternative which is sitting and waiting until something compelling falls in your lap?
That opportunity cost is much lower than we all might think.
If it is interesting, that right there is often reason to try it.
Also, things connect in surprising ways.
The real opportunity cost lies in not doing.
People say that they "don't want to invest a decade in something", but fail to grasp that they are invested a decade in something (perhaps watching youtube) -- regardless if they decide to focus it or not.
This!
It sounds like OP wants to be the best basketballer but only plays one game ever second weekend, but then compares themselves to that person who is practicing hoops straight after dinner for 3 hours in the rain.
Turn off your TV, stop watching Netflix, and close that YouTube tab...
Prioritise your goals, pick the top one, spend at least one hour per day towards that first goal until done, then move down that list if there's still time in the day. Repeat!
Many millions of people you don't admire has poured thousands of hours into some project as well. Time is necessary but far from enough. The time is the easy part, understanding what you should do with that time is the hard part, that is where almost everyone fall.
Comparing yourself to other people is a losing game - no matter how awesome you are you'll always find people that are "better" than you at whatever, as they would to, unless you're Michael Jordan.
Find things you like to do that make you happy and do those things. That works for me. I'm a college drop-out/software developer with skeletons in my closet just like you.
You mean failed minor league baseball player Michael Jordon? Remember that even if you are the best in the world at one thing, outside of your specialty people are going to be better than you.
> I've missed more than 9000 shots in my career. I've lost almost 300 games. 26 times, I've been trusted to take the game winning shot and missed. I've failed over and over and over again in my life. And that is why I succeed.
This negative mindset may actually hurt you! Your subconscious listens to this.
In they past I used to do the opposite. I was learning game programming and when I learned something cool I was imagining that by learning this or that I started being smarter than hundreds or thousands of others my age.
So instead of trying to be top-of-the world I could never be I was simply leaving those not willing to improve behind.
Don't judge yourself harshly and try to detach from comparisons with the world. In your spare time do whatever you find meaningful because of the thing itself, not because of how impressive it is.
Also note that building things, even if they're basic, is more motivating and useful than going over endless tutorials, wiki pages, online courses etc.
And again, do what is meaningful to you, not what is fashionable or impressive to strangers, hn, recruiters etc.
Here's what I can tell you about yourself. You are probably much smarter, much more talented, and have more good qualities than you realize. You have to constant challenge these messages you're telling yourself (use CBT as a framework). Start digging _deep_ for your good qualities, remind yourself of them constantly. Start "doing the opposite", and work on radical acceptance. Get a good coach/therapist who can understand you, and help you see yourself.
You can find joy and happiness in life, once you accept that what that looks like for you is different than how it looks for other people. Acceptance is key.
That being said, I was drawn to the thread for helpful replies and enjoyed feeling that I'm not alone in feeling like OP.
Your reply resonated most with me personally. I even told my wife about it specifically and would like to explore it more.
>Start digging _deep_ for your good qualities, remind yourself of them constantly. >Start doing the opposite, and work on radical acceptance.
I have a fundamental feeling, that I should do this even more. I have been seeing a therapist a couple of years back who helped me there. No that I'm OK, I struggle to go there more in order to go from OK to GREAT, it feels entitled.
>You are probably much smarter, much more talented, and have more good qualities than you realize.
One part of me, knows that on a "for a fact" level. But another part immediately spoils the party by calling that "arrogant", "full of myself". It's all relative as others have said pick the general population in my city, country, planet and I'm "successful". Pick the 0.00001% NBA-all stars and I'm not.
I was trying to research more about what "insecure overachievers" can do to help accept/unlock themselves.
>You can find joy and happiness in life, once you accept that what that looks like for you is different than how it looks for other people. Acceptance is key.
Again this is hard for me personally to internalize.
My first reaction is dismissing that statement as "entitled". "Oh do you think you're so special you need a special definition of joy and happiness and success?"
Probably, because (i) I have been taught and (ii) I'm telling myself and (iii) teaching my kids now that "entitlement" is not good.
Having re-read the statement over and over, it's less clear how it can spark these negative emotions against myself.
Of course we are all beautiful snowflakes, that's also something I learned, believe and teach my kids. Why is it so much easier for me to grant that privilege to every human being than to myself?
Thank you for reading.
A note on the one about entitlement:
Everyone is _entitled_ to have their experience of reality acknowledged (this opens up a can of worms, but bear with me).
Someone who is neurodivergent (like OP) experiences reality differently than someone who is neurotypical. It's subjective, and hand-wavy, I know. But to some greater extent, we have to respect _and accept_ what people tell us about themselves.
I liken it to being a parent, when you see your child worrying about something, or saying something you disagree with. Instead of trying to force your viewpoint on them by telling them how they _should_ feel (have you ever caught yourself doing that? I know I have), why not ask them _why_ they feel like that? You gain understanding, and through understanding discovery, which leads to acceptance and a deepening of empathy for individual experience.
I've personally discovered that what comes across as well intentioned "advice" can often feel a lot like shame. And shame, is the death of joy. It only leads one direction -- downwards. So my "advice" is generally to listen more, to _accept_ more.
Anyways, that's what I was getting at. Hopefully this helps add clarity.
"but I can’t convince myself that these traits are actually true. I feel untalented, empty and dumb."
They probably are 'true' in some sense, but that doesn't mean you can't feel untalented/empty/etc at the same time. Appearing to be 'creative' and 'in learning mode' is how other people see you - feeling untalented/empty is how you see your self. They can both be true at the same time. But your feelings about yourself aren't the whole truth, and they can (and will) change over time too, just like other people's views of you may change, depending on you, the other people, and other factors outside of everyone's control.
Maybe you should stare out of the window for a while - I don't mean forever, but it seems like you're trying to engage in some self reflection, and that can take time. And 'wasting' time is often not seen as a good thing by others, or indeed ourselves. I struggle often with trying to give myself some 'time off' for anything.
With all that said, you dropped a bomb in the last paragraph about medication. There's no doubt in my mind that this is a contributing factor to your mental health state (it might be a positive factor, but it's certainly in the mix). and as such, you should also be seeking out some folks with experience with these medications.
I'm in/from Mexico. And I've had the chance to live a d experience lots of different cultures (while living in Europe for 8 years).
American culture has this idea of ruthless working extra productivity/ how to churn as much as possible in little time. Very competitive.
But in other cultures (mexican, german, spanish, serbian/Croatian etc) theres a culture of more easy living. Work to live instead of live to work . Men's ambitions are to raise a healthy family, while in an 9 to 5 (or 7 to 3) job and go back to enjoy the evening with family, friends, tv. People get born, grow old and die having lived good lifes with that.
If I may, do look into building your own brand either by starting a newsletter or a freelancing writing practice -- you're clearly great at it!
I find comfort in that I am not alone, thinking of all the peasants and regular workers across history who didn't amount to much either, but still mostly fought on and had a good life. Plenty of examples in immediate family as well.
And lastly, I found that there is one thing that one can do that is absolutely unique that nobody can match anywhere in the world, and that is - as corny as this sounds - kids. It may be a touchy subject or not for everybody. But raising a human with the best possible effort you can muster is an accomplishment at least one person will remember and value 100000x more vs. any world champion in solving IOI problems or writing clever functional code :-)
"You get to read to kill a mockingbird." when he says it is hilarious and I often remember that when moments seem shitty.
I suspect they'll remember me forever.
Does that mean we oldies should be okay with tech employers showing a preference for young workforce?
Laughed out loud at that. Funny because it's so true.
For me personally it didn't stop me from wanting to achieve something in my life. Which I realize only partly overlaps with wanting to change the world. It was impactful nevertheless and I'm sure my kids will remember me :-)
I almost feel it is a happier life to have lived like a nobody. I can relate to the OP because I feel exactly like him many times. But then I remind myself that we are all stardust and there is inherently no purpose to life. Somehow that makes me feel very calm.
Not too long after, we had our second daughter. We very quickly realized that the answer to the question was “you just do”.
At least for me, I also realized our second daughter got less attention/coddling, but turned out just as great/spirited/happy.
Sometimes, I recognize that I hold myself to an unrealistically high standard/expectation. While setting the bar high can help one accomplish great things, but can also leave them feeling like they never measure up to their unreasonably high standards.
Kids are a lot of work for sure and require a lot of sacrifice. However, I hope you don’t avoid having kids because you don’t think you can be a good enough parent. The fact you are worried about it is already a sign, in my book, you’d make a pretty great and thoughtful parent.
I stopped counting the number of times they mentioned that they considered themselves stupid. There is so much negative and toxic self critic in this post that my feeling is that this is the biggest most fundamental issue that I would look at tackling.
Once you can sit in a room by yourself and be truly happy with your own company go and be open to relationships - but not before - otherwise you're back to square one but only worse because now you have an additional reason that you will use to justify your self hate. Love yourself first. Out of that love maybe you find somebody maybe not. It doesn't matter. Out of that maybe kids can happen - or not. If you ask your partner (or worse your kids) to fix you eventually it will all come back to you. You gotta do that work in the end by yourself. Anything else is cheating.
In my life, kids helped me relearn what it was like to be young.
It took me a number of years to realise I had bad depression / anhedonia.
My kids helped my focus on what was important.
I accepted myself for who I am and was able to feel happy again. My kids think I'm the great wizard with technology, even if I'm considered average.
Message to OP
We can't all be famous or the best at something. We don't all have eidetic memories. You will meet those savant like personalities and they will skew your view of the world, to think that you are not capable by comparing.
Stop comparing.
You can do great things. The greatest achievement is to live a long life and to challenge yourself. Be the best you can be. Accept your limits. Use your ability to help others and take joy in that.
If you can't be Einstein or Tesla, take pride in being part of their journey.
No one will remember us. This is the norm.
The answer is people who don't know the real you. Would anyone love you if they saw a clip show of all the lies, betrayal, hypocrisy, times you yelled at your family, embarrassing fails, wasted potential, etc. But for many of us that clip show plays daily in our heads as a reminder to stop being so shitty and it comes at the price of our self-esteem.
My kids taught me both these lessons.
This. OP sounds like a great candidate for counseling/therapy from a psychologist who is a licensed counselor. It sometimes takes a few tries to find the right one, but it is worth the effort.
As for me it was...I got silver medal there, but I would have given it away easily for being able to date one of the many hot hostesses on the competition. My life would have been so much easier if I just spend my life in the gym instead of solving math and programming problems.
Also going to the gym is pretty easy, so if you know “the path to happiness” why not just take it?
I'm doing it but I'm 40 and the gains are not the same...my girlfriend left me for a younger and much stronger guy (and no, just younger wasn't enough in itself). Also in the 90s whenever I asked a girl if she likes muscular guys, they usually answered ,,not that much''. They are much more open nowdays about what they want from a man than 20 years ago.
In fact, one might suspect that you're more likely to find moderately gifted individuals at the top levels of success than very talented ones.
From the micro point of view, a talented individual has a greater a priori probability of reaching a high level of success than a moderately gifted one. However, from the macro point of view of the entire society, the probability of finding moderately gifted individuals at the top levels of success is greater than that of finding there very talented ones, because moderately gifted people are much more numerous and, with the help of luck, have globally a statistical advantage to reach a great success, in spite of their lower individual a priori probability.
If you measure yourself by someone else's yardstick, you'll always fall short.
I know you are trying to be helpful but this is probably not a good answer. I don;t think we know enough about his background to be recommending such a major life choice. Although each kid is unique, there is nothing unique about having them.
Have a good one!
I couldn't, not just because of the disability, But I'm easily bored and I need 12 parallel side projects to escape reality and I envy those who seem live carefree, doing what they're told and most importantly - living in the present.
So OP, there's no point in comparing with others be it smart or dumb from one's perspective. There are people who envy your lifestyle. Social media oversells the value of 'being known', I'm certain many in the top-tier of being known would rather wish they were unknown.
On average our society would prostrate to corrupt politicians, immoral celebrities or new age celeb-billionaires but would treat a homeless musician who makes little money without cheating or hurting anyone with disgust. Many put up a facade to keep up with this society, but for the sake of our mental well-being it's good to remove the facade every now and then.
There is the only way: go to a doctor. Books don't help much.
Given that 100% - `0.0001%` of people are basically average and judging by my Internet most of the people have a very pessimistic outlook on life and the future, is it really fair to have children?
If they don't, by slim chance, become that one in a million that just breezes through life ... they will become as pessimistic as we are ... and at some point they will find that their only contribution is having kids on their own.
(Disclaimer: I am not anti-kids, I/we always planned on having some, but as we are barely making ends meet it has never really been a good time and now we are in our mid-30s and time is running out)
Eat, shit, sleep, reproduce, die. Living being 101.
But the main thing about having kids is that you will not have time to think about how your life sucks anymore. Probably better than taking drugs to achieve the same result.
s/to think about how your life sucks/to ingest content that convinces you that your life sucks/gi
Great recommendation to a man who is bipolar and have a schizoactive disorder.
Incremental, small changes are how you go from good to great. Nobody started out by shipping liquid gold code. It was a refinement process, done over years of commits.
Start today. The amazing thing about coding is our unit of measurement is incremental improvement. Each patch does something better than the last.