Oh, finally a big keyboard manufacturer has the cojones to move Capslock away from prime keyboard space.
I have Advantage keyboard and usually wrote off physically separated keyboards, but thinking more about it now, I do wish my Advantage's two splits were angled a liiiittle more. So, I'll probably get this 360.
I do hope however that us_intl layout becomes more widespread and the AltGr modifier key is universally present in US keyboards without having to set it up.
I've felt for a long time that this would be an obvious move. I know that many people, myself included, like the Kinesis Advantage design, but wanted a split design like the Freestyle. I've even seen DIY versions.
I've been waiting a long time for this and getting hyped at their Twitter drip feed but damn preorders open December 20th for potential delivery in MAY.
Yeah, I was very close to buying an Advantage 2 in the last week. Saw this, got super excited, then realized it wouldn’t be in my hands for another 5 months
I like how they added inboard macro keys. It was odd before how the Advantage had all this programming capability but you had to come up with some new keystrokes.
Is it me or the price difference between the two makes the Pro model a no-brainer? Wireless, backlighting, better keycaps, and better programming model for only $40 more?
Not everybody wants a wireless keyboard. The least desirable thing, to me, is probably the backlight. It's clearly toggle-able though, so should be fine.
I'll be the first to admit I know nothing about keycaps, it always seemed like worrying about the paint on a car and ignoring the engine. I'm guessing they had to use the worse keycaps on the "Pro" for backlighting?
Trust me, you can immediately feel the difference and you can see the difference after at most a year. As someone who types 12+ hours every day, yeah, I care. Car paint protects the body, but is otherwise almost exclusively cosmetic. Keycaps however is what you touch. You don't touch a keyboard (in a meaningful way), so I think your analogy is flawed.
Been using the Advantage for decades. Splitting the two sides is a terrific idea. Always wanted to mount a split keyboard to the sides of a zero-gravity chair so will try it out with this.
Two features I wished they would offer:
1. A nub-mouse like the Thinkpad
2. A touchpad in the center of the keyboard (not needed for the split)
Yes, I've even given them feedback asking for a nib or something somewhere. I used velcro to attach a trackpad to the middle of one of my Advantage2 keyboards and it helps. (If I had my personal choice, it'd probably be a trackball instead of a nib.)
There are a good number of people who sell pre-builts for reasonable prices (e.g. https://bastardkb.com/), but these are often one-person endeavors, and with part shortages, they've been out of stock a lot recently.
The Kinesis "contoured" design with thumb clusters is almost 30 years old, and itself was a clone of the Maltron design - so I think it's accurate to describe the Ergodox as a clone of the Kinesis.
> so I think it's accurate to describe the Ergodox as a clone of the Kinesis.
Seems to me like the Ergo almost exactly cloned the thumb cluster, and the Kinesis 360 almost exactly cloned the Ergo split design. They are clearly both drawing inspiration from each other, and there isn't one "clone"
Making a split version is kind of an obvious option and Ergodox was _far_ from the first fully split keyboard. Two people can both have the same idea (which is why patents are patently unfair).
The Ergo pro is an excellent keyboard. I’ve had two. Biggest problems are reliability - my first had a bunch of keys stop working in 9 months! They sent a replacement half for $99. That one stopped working 13 months later.
I would google around and read some reviews on Amazon and Reddit before committing. Sadly these issues seem common.
Their warranty support was… not good. Their COO didn’t really stand by their product. I know 4 other people who had similar experiences - they all love the keyboard but switched after it basically fell apart.
I’d buy another in a heartbeat if I knew it would last well beyond the warranty like every single other keyboard I’ve ever had over 32 years of computer ownership.
That sucks. Before buying, I read a lot of reports of key-repeating issues, but hopefully that will never be an issue for me because 1) I buy the 'Low Force edition' which uses different switches to the normal one, and 2) I spoke to a distributor and they told me it was pretty easy to fix that particular issue by cleaning the mechanism. Though I do actually have some New-in-Box spares that I snagged for really cheap, as an insurance policy!
I wonder why they’re using Gateron switches rather than Cherry ones? Is it just about cutting costs, or is there a solid technical reason for using clones rather than the originals?
I love Gateron Oranges. I've had both Cherry Browns and the Gateron Browns, and I actually prefer the Gaterons. I couldn't give you a quantitative answer, but I swapped them into the same hot-swappable keyboard and I liked the Gaterons. I found the Orange Gaterons, and I am sticking with them.
Kinesis Advantage 2 is great, but it's massive and hard to travel with. Looks like the 360 might be a bit easier to travel with.
The Kinesis Advantage 2 fits a Magic Trackpad perfectly right in the middle of the keyboard. This lets you perform mouse actions with you right and left hands.
Emacs keybindings never made sense to me till I tried them with the Kinesis. I feel like Emacs sucks on a standard Mac keyboard and is awesome with a Kinesis. See here for a blog post on the topic if you're interested in learning more: https://mungingdata.com/emacs/learning-emacs-keybindings-aft...
It takes a while to get used to the keyboard layout, but only takes a week to get fully productive. You're eventually able to train your brain to operate fluently on Kinesis & Macbook key layouts without any extra thinking. It's a great investment if you're willing to put in a bit of effort.
I bet the kinesis foot pedals would take emacs to the next level too. I use spacemacs in evil mode so I never bothered having to learn all those key chording things for emacs.
I have a kinesis advantage pro with foot pedal but the pedal just sucks to use. Foot is way too big and clumsy to keep pace with fingers, plus it forces you to sit in fixed position or fiddle with the pedal all the time to try and keep it in a comfortable position (trying to use the pedal shows how much I shift around in the chair during the day, nevermind when using a balance chair on wheels).
I rely heavily on the foot pedal. The single-pedal is too light and really wants to be bolted to something heavy so it doesn't slide around. The triple-food pedal is much nicer, just because it's heavy and stays put. I map all three foot-buttons to the same thing.
I used the triple-foot pedal for about 1.5 years. I now have chronic discomfort in my left foot; the one I used for the foot pedal. Of course it might be a coincidence, or it could be a RSI from using the foot pedal.
I was using the magic trackpad, but due to pain in the back of my wrist I had to abandon it entirely and switch over to a logitech trackman mouse (same spot, right in the middle of the keyboard).
I have the Kinesis Freestyle 2 and, while the layout is good, I really dislike how the keys feel- very mushy, way too much travel distance, and many keys require moving my entire hand from the home row to properly depress because they're very resistant to non-perpendicular force.
What I really want is an ergo keyboard with Macbook/laptop style low-travel keys.
Freestyle Pro and Edge now have mechanical switches, which are better than the membrane of the Freestyle and Freestyle 2. With the Edge you can even choose the MX Speed Silver, for much shorter travel.
You can try some custom keyboard with low profile switches. There are many open source ones if you're up for the task. One option is cornish zen https://lowprokb.ca/products/corne-ish-zen-2
I built corne light v2 with choc v2 for my personal use.
I had this setup for a while, but I had a habit of moving just the index finger, instead of the whole wrist. This caused some inflammation/swelling in the cartilage/muscle between the index and middle finger, so I had to abandon the setup.
The Magic Trackpad trick is gold! I did the same thing with my advantage 2 keyboard by taping it down with adhesive tape and it’s been an absolute godsend.
I’ve more or less stopped using a mouse and rely on keyboard shortcuts, when those fail I have the trackpad within striking distance.
Thumb shift keys are definitely an (incremental) improvement over the traditional placement, but they require a yet bigger commitment to retraining from the standard keyboard layout. I've been using Kinesis keyboards for 25 years, and finally this year committed to moving the shifts to the thumbs. This was worthwhile for me, but I hesitate to recommend the, ahem, shift to others.
The most puzzling default is that the 'up' key is on the left and 'down' is on the right. This is the opposite of vi and ctrl-J ctrl-K for no reason that I can imagine. I always remap it.
I'll second that. I've owned two of these keyboards (one for work, one for home) for 16 years and they are still going strong. Nothing else really worked for me. They've taken me through 3 employers now.
It does take some getting used to, but once you've made the transition, you won't want to go back. You'll type faster, with almost no strain, and more accurately.
I have four of them because I keep buying secondhand boards from people who can't adjust to them for cheap... I paid full price for my first but the other three all came in between $50-150. Though after I replace their controllers they cost a bit more :)
I didn't suffer from carpal tunnel but I'd get a lot of tension in my back and shoulders leading to sharp pains and deep aches that would last for days. Started using an Advantage2 and trackball in my non-dominant hand at work and within a week the symptoms were gone (and have stayed gone for a few years). I still use a normal keyboard and mouse in my dominant hand at home but the time spent that way is much less.
If you're seriously thinking about buying this go try the other Kinesis keyboards first. After you get in the ergonomic territory I find the comfort increases to be very marginal.
IMHO assuming you have no ergonomic setup at all you're better off buying a Kinesis Freestyle, a used Steelcase/Herman Miller chair, and a VESA mount for your monitor/laptop to make it eye level - all of which can be had for the cost of the Pro version.
That being said this looks like a very nice purchase for those who have the money to micro optimize.
FWIW: We had ergonomics consultants in 3-4 years ago and they recommended displays be lower because having them higher makes your eyes open wider and dry out more. If you have problems with dry eyes, maybe try lowering your display?
That's super interesting I have never heard or thought of that. I wonder how that compares to tilting your head back slightly to get the same eye:monitor angle?
This is all getting into personal preference, but AFAIK, ergonomic standards do not exactly recommend eye level, they recommend that looking in a straight line you should see over top of edge of the monitor. There's definitely some tradeoffs to be had as having the monitor too low can put stress on your neck (which translates to neck pain after a while).
That sounds reasonable. What I've seen from various websites, and enjoy from personal experience, is having the top of the monitor at, or slightly above, eye level.
That's gonna really depend on the monitor, of course. My 46" 4K, that'd be on the floor. :-) But, I've had pretty good luck with keeping my monitors lower, and I tend to have issues with dry eyes.
I agree with this take. I've used a Freestyle 2 for years and _loved_ it. I tried the Advantage 2 and it gave me headaches -- I couldn't deal with the keys being in different spots.
Switched back to Freestyle 2 and I couldn't be happier.
ZMK is built on top of Zephyr while QMK is built on top of ChibiOS - I'm not super familiar with the specifics but it's my understanding that the way ZMK/Zephyr handles bluetooth and matrix scanning is like an order of magnitude more energy efficient.
The go to for the ErgoMechKeyboards realm seems to be to use ZMK for these sorts of things. Power consumption and customization of certain things is better supported.
Individually programmable key backlights is nice, but imo a gimmick. That being said I never use backlights on a laptop keyboard, or mech keyboard, so I don't know what the use case for wanting ur Q to light up in a colour different to your W key would be.
Underglow of any kind is a gimmick, but backlights, programmable or not, are useful in low-light situations, to let you see where that key that you rarely use actually is.
You generally don't want Q to light up different from W, but you might want to have a low-level green glow by default and slightly brighter colors to distinguish keys around the periphery.
I very much like backlit keys. My Max Keyboard Blackbird is red, which is just right at its dimmest, although when the side panels reset I always turn them back off.
On the Kinesis Freestyle Edge, I actually like the per-key RGB lighting as well. Most of the alphanumeric and punctuation keys are red, the home keys are green, and the rest are blue. I also turn off the backlight for keys that I don't use, like PRTSC. It looks gaudy as hell, but I feel like it makes it easier to find certain keys in the Freestyle's slightly unusual layout, and to come back to home position.
The other thing I like to do with RGB lighting is to make different layouts different colors--QWERTY is all blue to distinguish it from my multi-color Dvorak.
I had to look it up too, but big drawback is ZMK does not yet support macros. So only the Advantage360 supports macros for now, the Advantage360 Professional does not (https://zmk.dev/docs)
I was pretty hot on getting the Moonlander when it first came out, but I really wanted unlabeled keys. They now offer that, but I'm having a hard time committing to spending the money when I'm so happy with my ErgoDox Ez.
Anyone made that switch that can compare/contrast?
I've had both. I find that the moonlander is a LOT smaller, and feels a bit better because the wrist-rests are integrated (that was probably my biggest annoyance with the EZ). I was able to sell my EZ for about 250, so the moonlander realistically cost me about 150. The moonlander is about 25% better than the EZ (note: there are a few keys missing) and overall I'm happy with my upgrade
I have no experience with the ErgoDox, and loved the Moonlander when I first received it. Over time I've grown to dislike the thumb clusters, they're too far away when tented, making only the inner thumb button easily reachable.
(I'm still using it every day for work, but want to try something else soon, probably a Kyria).
I also have both and prefer the Moonlander. I like the adjustable thumb keys, integrated wrist supports, and smaller size compared to the Ez. That said, the Ez is a GREAT keyboard.
I've used both the Ergodox and Moonlander. In general, I think both keyboards have poor thumb clusters. The Moonlander has the big red buttons that you can't press while keeping your hands in normal typing position. The Ergodox has the 4 1U keys that are also hard to press.
The Ergodox has 1.5U keys between the hands (like to the right of T,G,B, and to the left of Y,H,N), while the moonlander just has 1U keys next to T,G and Y,H. I found the 1.5U keys much easier to press than the 1U keys. (Try typing "RGB" on a QWERTY keyboard; it's really not that easy to make your pointer finger responsible for 12 equally-sized keys.) As a result, I moved backspace from the 1.5U key next to H,N to a thumb key. The thumb isn't as fast for rapid motions as the pointer finger is, so I notice backspace being a little more cumbersome than necessary. But, I don't really think about it anymore, so it's not a big deal. (I do see my usage of the 1U keys falling off, though. I used have _- and =+ on them, and I find myself going for shift-= instead of the dedicated + key. I think that's because my Ergodox didn't have a + key, that was backspace, and I never learned it.)
Both the Ergodox EZ and Moonlander have godawful tenting. But the Moonlander lets you fix it because it has an array of threaded inserts on the back that you can screw a proper tent to. I use this thing https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4769961 and love it.
Generally the Moonlander is quite appealing. I use it every day and it's great. (I did replace the switches with Zilents. I always use weird switches on my keyboards.) But I'm looking at the Advantage 360 and think they've done a really job, so it's definitely a third option to consider.
Finally, I've experimented with other designs. I made a 107 key keyboard (I call it the Ergorocks 107) that is Ergodox-like, but has 3 1U switches for the thumb clusters, a number pad in the middle, and F keys above the number keys. I fucked up the angle of the thumb keys, and found the numpad in the middle hard to use. I made it take a standard keyset, though, so you don't have to hunt for "Ergo" keysets. You can use any normal keyset! If this is interesting to anyone, I might make a second iteration with the bugs fixed. (It's entirely 3D printed. Don't let people tell you 3D printed keyboards are bad, they're great. PLA is honestly a great keyboard material; very rigid and pretty quiet.)
It isn’t true for me, but what the ZSA folks point out is that for small hands you may need it tilted upwards to make it natural to reach the thumb cluster.
+1 I really do like my new Moonlander, which I purchased in November. However, as a former Kinesis Advantage user, I miss the contoured shape, I think it helped a lot with carpal pain.
That said, I'm not sure I can justify another keyboard.
ok, could you expand on your experiences with both? i’m a longtime kinesis user (like, LONG time—i got rid of one with an AT connector a few years ago) and i’ve been really toying with the idea of switching. what are the pros and cons you’ve experienced?
I’ve used both extensively and fully switched from the Kinesis Adv2 to the Moonlander. I believe what gp is referring to is the (obvious) structural difference between the two. With the Advantage 2, your hands are largely resting on the frame of the keyboard. With the Moonlander your wrists are either poised above whatever surface you have the Moonlander on or resting directly on it. For me, and I suspect most people, that’s simply my desk. At that point the height of your arm with respect to your desk becomes very critical to avoid your wrists getting too far from a neutral position.
Not OP but the issue for me moving from a scooped keyboard (Kinesis) to a flat one (Ergodox) was reaching the top/bottom row comfortably.
On a flat keyboard, hitting that top row (especially edge keys like the 5 and 6) required either moving my entire hand or doing some weird reaching motion. And I wear a 4XL glove so I don't even know how other people deal with the top row at all. Being able to not move your hands as much doesn't sound like a big thing but it helped a lot with my wrist issues because I can find a comfortable position when I get started and never leave it until I stand up.
I'm currently on a scooped and fully split KB from bastardkb.com which is kind of the best of both worlds (scooped for reach, split for my shoulders, and custom firmware so I can use less keys overall). But if Kinesis offers that out-of-the-box it's a pretty easy choice for my next keyboard.
- QMK is second to none. With the moonlander specifically I can flash my keyboard from any OS with nothing but a browser and a paperclip.
- Tenting is easy, adjustable, and feels good to use. I liked the thumb cluster tenting (over the ergodox) because it felt more natural.
- Excellent build quality, wrist rests are comfy, and it's pretty portable (it's in my carryon bag right now).
- High quality switch and cap choices (mostly, the custom thumb buttons are obviously nonstandard. But I strongly disliked the rubber function key row of the advantage 2)
- I occasionally play FPS games, and like that I can disconnect the right half of the keyboard and gain more mousepad real estate.
Kinesis pros:
- Mainly the shape. I think the kinesis is probably the most natural device to type on. The moonlander is comfy, but I think the kinesis is still more natural overall. The sculpted key-well is ideal, IMHO.
Both keyboards have eliminated my carpal tunnel symptoms, so I don't have any issues recommending either. If you're going to travel with a keyboard, definitely get the moonlander. But I think from a pure ergonomic standpoint - the kinesis wins.
If I ever switch jobs and have a keyboard stipend, I'll purchase the Advantage 360 and write a full review. But I'm very happy with my present position :)
Yeah, the bowl shape is absolutely the missing piece on my Moonlander. It is otherwise perfect in nearly every other way, and the flexibility from QMK is unmatched. But I don't know how you can reconcile it with its low profile; the Moonlander looks a lot nicer to throw in my bag than the 360 when you pull the wings in...
I agree; I can't justify yet another keyboard. But there's the continuous itch to go ham and design my own split contour keyboard with QMK...
(For anyone reading this, you literally can't go wrong with either of these keyboards and they'll last 10+ years, so get one if you can.)
I got a extra set of legs from ZSA (was cheaper in the Ergodox store than the Moonlander store) which allows putting the thumb pads on the desk, plus MT3 profile caps, both of which add to a somewhat a finger helping curve;
Switches are hotswappable on an ergodox ez. I bought one last year to get some quiet tactile switches, and it's been really good so far. Earlier versions of the ergodox are probably what you're thinking of
Yep, love my Moonlander - it has really helped with my wrist issues. The only trouble I have is when I have to switch to a standard keyboard (e.g., on a laptop).
I've been using the Kinesis Advantage (and it's kin) since 2000. I can switch back and forth to standard boards without losing speed or making errors. There are several replacement controllers for the Advantage that will let you use QMK and other custom firmwares.
IMO moonlander, ergodox, etc .. all just shitty Advantages. The only thing that comes close in the DIY/Enthusiast community is the Dactyl. Nothing beats the contour.
I'd say that it is more their response to the Dactyl[1] and the Dactyl Manuform[2] which is similar to Kinesis but split.
Those started as open source DIY keyboards, and originally you had to 3D-print, hand-wire, solder and program yourself, but ready-made ones are available now.
I had been using the Kinesis Advantage 2 and for me there was almost no adjustment time. It did take me quite a while (two weeks) to get used to the Kinesis.
Moonlander user here -- sort of, but not really. One of the reasons I bought it was the non-staggered keys, and I'd say it met my expectations. All the keys off the home row just seem a little closer.
I have the Ergodox EZ, so similar to the Moonlander. It took me about a full workweek to use it without looking at the keyboard, and another week to type at a competent speed. That said, after three years of ownership, I still can't type as fast as I can on my MacBook's keyboard (last I checked: 65wpm with the Ergodox, 109wpm with the MacBook).
I have one, but it's in a drawer now because I was finding it too difficult to switch between it and a normal laptop keyboard. I want a split keyboard that has all the keys in the same places, so muscle memory doesn't need to adapt. I touch type, so the same fingers just need to find the same keys in the same relative positions. Mainlander does not do that, and I can't find the layout or top view zoomable photos for this one :-/
There's a ~$30 add-on accessory to add tenting support in 5°, 10°, and 15° positions. Same as with the Freestyle Edge mentioned in the other comment, for the newer, gaming-focused keyboard. I find it to be the best part of having a split keyboard.
I switched to Microsoft Sculpt for this reason. Muscle memory is fully compatible with a laptop keyboard. Except it’s much more comfortable, due to the tilt, width and superb tactile feeling for such low-travel keys. Totally took away all my wrist pains.
As a bonus it doesn’t look like a science-lab on your desk, like a lot of other ergonomic keyboards do. Got to say this new Advantage 360 has a really nice look though.
And its also distinctive because you can (with some caveats) use separate USB cables to each side, rather than a cable spanning the two parts. That works really well for me.
That seems unlikely, and it's not really how Drop usually works. They collect pre-order payments before manufacturing. This is probably an unlimited group buy.
Pre-oders on Drop.com usually stay open for a month or longer.
Sadly, no dedicated F-row. I would even settle for a subset of keys that aligned with the columns. I do not consider layers an adequate replacement.
Happy to see they are moving away from their own software configuration. Not a fan of the software interface on the Freestyle Pro. More than once I have gotten myself into a loop where I am unsure which function mode is activated and how to switch back to what I want.
I am still likely to get this once it is out, but still not the "end game" keyboard of my dreams.
For what it's worth I really hate the dinky little F keys on my Kinesis Advantage 2, they're hard to hit, awkwardly positioned and feel gross. F8 and F9 are entirely impossible to hit without moving your entire hand.
I consider this an upgrade. I personally think layer beats any keys I can't hit without taking my hands off home row.
That said my other main daily driver is an HHKB so I'm pretty used to switching layer for F keys.
Personally I would not get a smaller (fewer keys) keyboard if that meant giving up keys like the F1 to F12 keys. I’m fine with having that home row option via layers and Vim and whatnot, but not having normal keys is just a downgrade in my opinion. Some applications want to use funky key combos, and I don’t want to make contortions in order to use them; the key combos might be uncomfortable enough on a regular keyboard where you don’t have to use some “F” key to access something basic like the arrow keys or “Home”.
On the whole the “home row” insistence seems like a bit of an obsession at times. It’s often nice, comfortable, and efficient, but I refuse to believe that anyone ever got hurt (RSI and all that) by moving their hands to the nav cluster every once in a while. (Or else all those piano players must be in some real trouble.)
I like the tenkeyless formfactor. Then I get a standard keyboard minus the numpad. And I can use a dedicated numpad if I need it.
I would imagine you can add an F key layer pretty easily so this shouldn't be a big deal. I found it impossible to touch-type the F-row on my Advantage 2, and it's awesome to be able to move keys closer to your fingers.
That being said, I don't see a reason to upgrade. I've ordered replacement key wells so I can install my own switches, and since the Advantage is my desk keyboard I'm not worried about portability.
> I would imagine you can add an F key layer pretty easily so this shouldn't be a big deal
That may be the case, but the issue I have with this is that I need, often enough, to press random F keys while not actively using the keyboard. Like for example refresh HN while eating an apple (F5). It's a pain to have to press multiple keys.
They also sell pedals, which, I guess, you could use to switch layers. I am thinking about using pedals to switch to the arrow keys layer. I wonder what other uses the pedals have?
IME the pedal is even more clumsy than pressing two keys to switch layers (I've had an advantage pro for ~15 years and am now using a planck and also building my own split keyboard to replace the planck with something more ergonomic).
If you're using layers already, it's a small step to just add dedicated keys for those things in a layer. So that becomes LayerX + 9, or LayerX + R (for rebuild), or whatever combination you want.
But at this point you are just fixing an invented problem with more tasks to be done. A lot of these custom keyboards could just have been built with more of the standard keys.
Pessimistic: "without the full set of keyswitches, you need to use fancy tricks to make shortcuts usable".
Optimistic: "with fancy tricks, you can make shortcuts easily accessible without the need for the full set of keyswitches".
e.g. on my keyboard I have shortcuts for "goto desktop left" when I press "cv", (and "goto desktop right" when I press "m,"). This is more complex than a standard keyboard's Ctrl+Shift+Right (or whatever, as varies per OS), but it feels so convenient.
Enlightened middle way: Custom software keyboard configuration that works with any keyboard and that doesn’t have to solve invented problems like “No man there is no Home key why would you need that just use this QMK module bro and—”
I am intrigued by your key chords though. You can’t get key chords like that with a stock keyboard. Does it rely on the key-up event to distinguish between “cv” (one keychord” and “c” and “v” (separate)? Or does it rely on timeouts?
> I am intrigued by your key chords though. You can’t get key chords like that with a stock keyboard. Does it rely on the key-up event to distinguish between “cv” (one keychord” and “c” and “v” (separate)? Or does it rely on timeouts?
Timeouts. I believe it's similar to how some users use "jk" as more convenient than the escape key.
I switch between tons of tools and computers throughout the day. No way I want to customize all of them.
Sure, yes I do have a huge bashrc on my main workstation and yes I do add macros and other combos for repetitive tasks. But some fundamental things, like rebuild file, I really don’t want to be the weirdo unique guy who can’t operate someone else’s keyboard and vice versa. Missing F keys is just not a professional programmers keyboard.
Modifier keycombos are often harder to use than simple keypresses. First of all because it involves two hands (if touch typing) and second of all because you have to coordinate the hands so that you type the combo in the right order (e.g. control before C).
“But the home row.” Right. And that’s sometimes a plus. But (1) moving your hands a bit is often not a big deal (unless you have to go back and forth a lot—then I think it’s a drag), and (2) even if things like using the (F key layer) arrow keys might be comfortable, it might not be comfortable to have to use yet another modifier key in order to use common functions like move-by-word (e.g. Ctrl+Left) or even move-and-mark-by-word (Ctrl+Shift+Left).
It’s not an objective win either way. So you definitely cannot just say that it “isn’t a big deal” as if having to use another layer has no cost associated with it.
It's good to reduce keyboard width because we need to put pointing device somewhere near. But reducing height isn't sense for me because vertical space isn't matter at all. I don't strongly need F1-12 keys but prefer to have because nothing is harmed by having dedicated keys.
If you haven’t, you really should check out the Moonlander that’s referred to elsewhere in this thread. I switched to it from a Kinesis Advantage 2 and couldn’t be happier.
People can swear up and down how intuitive and natural layers are, but I do not care. If there is ever a decision to be made between more and fewer keys, I always want to default to more.
Surely you don't expect people using keyboards without dedicated function keys (or number rows) are aiming to never need to use those keys?
The trade-off from fewer keys is reduced hand movement (& a smaller keyboard, cheaper to buy switches for, etc.), at the cost of additional complexity of use, & it not really being easy for anyone else to use your keyboard.
It seems reasonable either way to prefer one or the other. -- I suspect that most of the people enthusiastic about the smaller keyboard layouts are also into keyboard-driven workflows, and are developers who also frequently need to use the symbols accessed using layers.
> Surely you don't expect people using keyboards without dedicated function keys (or number rows) are aiming to never need to use those keys?
I could imagine that some people never use the function keys. Or never use the numpad keys. To some people they might be completely useless... Which would make a smaller keyboard understandable.
Now, people who do need all those keys and yet still go for a smaller keyboard is harder for me to understand. :)
> The trade-off from fewer keys is reduced hand movement (& a smaller keyboard, cheaper to buy switches for, etc.), at the cost of additional complexity of use, & it not really being easy for anyone else to use your keyboard.
The trade-offs seem a bit one-sided. Hand movements are not a big deal unless you are going constantly back and forth between the main part and the nav cluster or the numpad. And all of these custom keyboards with their 60%, 67.5%, etc. sizes are already so… boutique and expensive that I don’t think that people are forfeiting a dozen or so keys in order to save some money.
> I could imagine that some people never use the function keys. Or never use the numpad keys. To some people they might be completely useless... Which would make a smaller keyboard understandable.
>
> Now, people who do need all those keys and yet still go for a smaller keyboard is harder for me to understand. :)
Right, I don't think anyone goes "I need these keys, I should get a smaller keyboard".
But, no one is saying "I don't need those keys, I can use a smaller keyboard". e.g. 40% keyboards like the planck lack a number row, as well as lacking a number pad; of course they'll have to have access to type in numbers somehow.
> boutique and expensive that I don’t think that people are forfeiting a dozen or so keys in order to save some money.
Right, I don't think it's a persuasive/compelling point; but it is a benefit. Comparing the cost of getting switches for 110-keys vs for 48 keys, you can either afford nicer keys, or don't have to pay as much.
Agreed. It's fair that remapping keys is great to reduce moving hands in some cases, but it not mean dedicated keys aren't needed. I prefer to have both. Remapping feature is confused to reducing keys.
You can solve this without layers on the Moonlander, or any keyboard that allows you to load your own firmware.
For instance, you could configure your number keys to have a "press and hold" generate the corresponding F key. The 'hold' doesn't have to be very long to still easily distinguish it from "normal" typing.
You could also make it a key combo very easily. Anyone who doesn't like key combos should take up a war against !@#$%^&*()+_?:<>{} and their friends.
Hold? No thanks. How does that work when you are debugging code and have to repeatedly press the step over button. Both VS and IntellJ use F-keys as default for this. With lots of shift-modifiers already, to toggle step in, over, out.
>Sadly, no dedicated F-row. I would even settle for a subset of keys that aligned with the columns. I do not consider layers an adequate replacement.
Damn, I missed that part. The original Advantage has a set of small rubber F keys along the top which works surprisingly well given the amount that I use them (i.e. rarely).
Looking a bit more, I see that there are an extra set of keys on the "inside" of each half (to the right of G and left of H) - it's plausible that remapping these to key function keys would be enough for most use cases.
I recently replaced the controller on my advantage2 to support qmk[0]. Using multiple layers lets me avoid the tiny rubber f-keys and move the arrow keys to hjkl along with a few other tweaks.
I wish kinsis would make qmk support a default option. Custom layouts and layers are just too useful for me to give up.
Yea, I have an advantage pro but it's been collecting dust since I got a qmk keyboard. I'm not paying for proprietary firmware anymore, and since Kinesis' poor handling of their sticky modifier key bug (that existed and was well known for what, a decade or two?) I'm not keen on paying them anything at all anyway.
And in case anyone's wondering what I'm talking about, back when I was about to buy my Kinesis, just about every user report I could find online mentioned that sometimes the modifiers get stuck. I really hoped that was just a coincidence, but no, my new keyboard did the same thing, and when I asked other users I came across along the way, they all said it's a regular thing with the Kinesis Advantage.
Some tried to get Kinesis to repair it but response ranged from not acknowledging the issue at all and playing oblivious, or blaming the computer, sometimes offering to replace a circuit board in the keyboard (this does not fix the problem).
There's also this 2016 web.archive.org snapshot where Kinesis is blaming the computer for missing the upstroke (what a joke to anyone who has the slightest clue of how USB or the input stack in your favorite kernel works): https://web.archive.org/web/20160221095425/http://www.kinesi...
The reality is that it's all in their firmware and looks like it took them nearly two decades to fix (if not more, I'm not sure exactly how far back the issue goes.. I think some people claim it was also happening with the old PS/2 model!) with the release of Advantage 2.
I had an Ergo way back, and it was a decent keyboard until something failed on the bottom row. I've since moved on to building a Ergodox in 2014 that I've been daily using since.
This model looks really slick, and adds a number of nice innovations to the form factor. I'd reconsider if my current keyboard wasn't so bullet-proof.
I would like to see them partner with Logitech and integrate Logitech’s wireless tech into this and get rid of the cables all together and have a much lower latency interface than BT.
I was getting hand fatigue from my laptop keyboard and decided to look into split keyboards. I tried a variety of Kinesis keyboards but I didn't like the build quality or inconsistency in features between models. I ended up settling with the Mistel MD770 which is a compact split keyboard in a traditional QWERTY layout. I found that was all that was really needed. I still use my laptop a ton, but I switch it up just enough with the split one to keep fatigue at bay. This goes the same for using a trackball with my left hand and a mouse with my right.
At the end of the day the solution for me is to move in different ways and to build strength to combat fatigue. The trouble to adapt to Dvorak or curved, exceptionally ergonomic layouts isn't worth it for me, nor is the cost.
I do wish it was a little better in layout, but it's not too bad. I have been impressed with it so far for the price. My biggest gripe is I wish the effort for flashy RGB lights went into key lighting instead. I still hunt and peck sometimes at night.
It's a shame they couldn't get hot-swapable switches to work [1]. I have an
ErgoDox with MX Browns which hasn't seen the light of day for a while. If I were to make a large outlay again on a keyboard I'd want to buy with the switches I now know I want or no switches and fit them myself. TBH I could take a soldering iron to my ErgoDox I just haven't had the motivation.
As an aside I've always wondered why the Katana60 [2] didn't have much interest as it seemed like a reasonable regular to full ergo in-between and IMHO more comfortable than something like a Planck. Though whilst I have tried the Plank I've not actually tried the Katana60 IRL. Looking forward to keyboard meetups again the post COVID future.
If you're looking for something small but more ergonomic than a Plank, take a look at the Atreus (either as a DIY or in a kit from Keyboario[1]). I also had issues with the Plank but the slight angle of the keys on the Atreus has been extremely comfortable for me.
Love the small size, but the layout is too different from a "regular" keyboard for me to consider it; the switching costs between it and my laptop would be too high. Placement of shift, super (I use caps lock as super), and tab being the biggest issues.
Yeah I'm pretty familiar with most keyboard offerings. I'm just not keen on the Atreus' lack of a surrounding case/the key caps themselves being the edge. I know it's only an atheistic quibble but I guess I'm fussy like that.
Hot swap switches would be a killer RAS feature for a KB. Throw in redundant power and multipath USB with chipkill ECC in the MCU and it can be the longest uptime device in your data center...
Hot swappable switches is a common (premium) feature in the mech keyboard world. There are many examples, but the ergodox EZ is one that is very similar to TFA, but without the contours.
338 comments
[ 2.2 ms ] story [ 308 ms ] threadI have Advantage keyboard and usually wrote off physically separated keyboards, but thinking more about it now, I do wish my Advantage's two splits were angled a liiiittle more. So, I'll probably get this 360.
I do hope however that us_intl layout becomes more widespread and the AltGr modifier key is universally present in US keyboards without having to set it up.
I don't think a lack of drawers was the problem!
Is it me or the price difference between the two makes the Pro model a no-brainer? Wireless, backlighting, better keycaps, and better programming model for only $40 more?
(I love my Edge, but this particularly bug annoys me)
Kinesis advantage 2 helped me deal with carpal tunnel syndrome and forced to learn 10 finger typing, among other things.
As someone interacting with the pc for 8+ hours, this is easily the most impactful 450 Eur I've ever spent.
Two features I wished they would offer: 1. A nub-mouse like the Thinkpad 2. A touchpad in the center of the keyboard (not needed for the split)
Their keyboards are absolutely fantastic!
https://github.com/adereth/dactyl-keyboard
Kinesis has been around since the early 90s making keyboards like this.
https://www.maltron.com/
Seems to me like the Ergo almost exactly cloned the thumb cluster, and the Kinesis 360 almost exactly cloned the Ergo split design. They are clearly both drawing inspiration from each other, and there isn't one "clone"
https://kinesis-ergo.com/wp-content/uploads/Adv360-Pro-Asymm...
I've already settled on my "endgame" desktop keyboard in the Matias Ergo Pro though. Don't like layouts that stray too far from ANSI.
I would google around and read some reviews on Amazon and Reddit before committing. Sadly these issues seem common.
Their warranty support was… not good. Their COO didn’t really stand by their product. I know 4 other people who had similar experiences - they all love the keyboard but switched after it basically fell apart.
I’d buy another in a heartbeat if I knew it would last well beyond the warranty like every single other keyboard I’ve ever had over 32 years of computer ownership.
Makes me nervous to purchase one again.
The Kinesis Advantage 2 fits a Magic Trackpad perfectly right in the middle of the keyboard. This lets you perform mouse actions with you right and left hands.
Emacs keybindings never made sense to me till I tried them with the Kinesis. I feel like Emacs sucks on a standard Mac keyboard and is awesome with a Kinesis. See here for a blog post on the topic if you're interested in learning more: https://mungingdata.com/emacs/learning-emacs-keybindings-aft...
It takes a while to get used to the keyboard layout, but only takes a week to get fully productive. You're eventually able to train your brain to operate fluently on Kinesis & Macbook key layouts without any extra thinking. It's a great investment if you're willing to put in a bit of effort.
What I really want is an ergo keyboard with Macbook/laptop style low-travel keys.
Split hands though? Bluetooth? This is an instant-buy for me.
I’ve more or less stopped using a mouse and rely on keyboard shortcuts, when those fail I have the trackpad within striking distance.
At least it's customizable.
It does take some getting used to, but once you've made the transition, you won't want to go back. You'll type faster, with almost no strain, and more accurately.
IMHO assuming you have no ergonomic setup at all you're better off buying a Kinesis Freestyle, a used Steelcase/Herman Miller chair, and a VESA mount for your monitor/laptop to make it eye level - all of which can be had for the cost of the Pro version.
That being said this looks like a very nice purchase for those who have the money to micro optimize.
Switched back to Freestyle 2 and I couldn't be happier.
Differentiating by wired/wireless makes sense.
Using two different programming systems? No.
ZMK instead of adding BT support to QMK? Why?
RGB underglow but not individually programmable key backlights?
For the money they are charging, all of these things should have been extremely easy decisions. Anyone have insight?
speculation, but I'm pretty confident: ZMK is MIT licensed and QMK is GPL
Individually programmable key backlights is nice, but imo a gimmick. That being said I never use backlights on a laptop keyboard, or mech keyboard, so I don't know what the use case for wanting ur Q to light up in a colour different to your W key would be.
Also this board is not that expensive.
You generally don't want Q to light up different from W, but you might want to have a low-level green glow by default and slightly brighter colors to distinguish keys around the periphery.
On the Kinesis Freestyle Edge, I actually like the per-key RGB lighting as well. Most of the alphanumeric and punctuation keys are red, the home keys are green, and the rest are blue. I also turn off the backlight for keys that I don't use, like PRTSC. It looks gaudy as hell, but I feel like it makes it easier to find certain keys in the Freestyle's slightly unusual layout, and to come back to home position.
The other thing I like to do with RGB lighting is to make different layouts different colors--QWERTY is all blue to distinguish it from my multi-color Dvorak.
I've been using a kinesis advantage for years, and I'm seriously considering getting one of these.
I do not at all care about ZMK vs QMK -- I don't even know why I should care.
RGB underglow? I don't even care that it's there, let alone programmable key backlights.
I care about ergonomics. The selling point is the split, and bluetooth/wireless capability, on top of all the existing ergonomic benefits.
QMK is licensed under the GPL, which disallows linking with proprietary Bluetooth stacks. That might be one reason.
My workmates gaming keyboard led patterns That change with every key press drive me nuts, though.
Anyone made that switch that can compare/contrast?
(I'm still using it every day for work, but want to try something else soon, probably a Kyria).
The Ergodox has 1.5U keys between the hands (like to the right of T,G,B, and to the left of Y,H,N), while the moonlander just has 1U keys next to T,G and Y,H. I found the 1.5U keys much easier to press than the 1U keys. (Try typing "RGB" on a QWERTY keyboard; it's really not that easy to make your pointer finger responsible for 12 equally-sized keys.) As a result, I moved backspace from the 1.5U key next to H,N to a thumb key. The thumb isn't as fast for rapid motions as the pointer finger is, so I notice backspace being a little more cumbersome than necessary. But, I don't really think about it anymore, so it's not a big deal. (I do see my usage of the 1U keys falling off, though. I used have _- and =+ on them, and I find myself going for shift-= instead of the dedicated + key. I think that's because my Ergodox didn't have a + key, that was backspace, and I never learned it.)
Both the Ergodox EZ and Moonlander have godawful tenting. But the Moonlander lets you fix it because it has an array of threaded inserts on the back that you can screw a proper tent to. I use this thing https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4769961 and love it.
Generally the Moonlander is quite appealing. I use it every day and it's great. (I did replace the switches with Zilents. I always use weird switches on my keyboards.) But I'm looking at the Advantage 360 and think they've done a really job, so it's definitely a third option to consider.
Finally, I've experimented with other designs. I made a 107 key keyboard (I call it the Ergorocks 107) that is Ergodox-like, but has 3 1U switches for the thumb clusters, a number pad in the middle, and F keys above the number keys. I fucked up the angle of the thumb keys, and found the numpad in the middle hard to use. I made it take a standard keyset, though, so you don't have to hunt for "Ergo" keysets. You can use any normal keyset! If this is interesting to anyone, I might make a second iteration with the bugs fixed. (It's entirely 3D printed. Don't let people tell you 3D printed keyboards are bad, they're great. PLA is honestly a great keyboard material; very rigid and pretty quiet.)
That said, I'm not sure I can justify another keyboard.
On a flat keyboard, hitting that top row (especially edge keys like the 5 and 6) required either moving my entire hand or doing some weird reaching motion. And I wear a 4XL glove so I don't even know how other people deal with the top row at all. Being able to not move your hands as much doesn't sound like a big thing but it helped a lot with my wrist issues because I can find a comfortable position when I get started and never leave it until I stand up.
I'm currently on a scooped and fully split KB from bastardkb.com which is kind of the best of both worlds (scooped for reach, split for my shoulders, and custom firmware so I can use less keys overall). But if Kinesis offers that out-of-the-box it's a pretty easy choice for my next keyboard.
- QMK is second to none. With the moonlander specifically I can flash my keyboard from any OS with nothing but a browser and a paperclip.
- Tenting is easy, adjustable, and feels good to use. I liked the thumb cluster tenting (over the ergodox) because it felt more natural.
- Excellent build quality, wrist rests are comfy, and it's pretty portable (it's in my carryon bag right now).
- High quality switch and cap choices (mostly, the custom thumb buttons are obviously nonstandard. But I strongly disliked the rubber function key row of the advantage 2)
- I occasionally play FPS games, and like that I can disconnect the right half of the keyboard and gain more mousepad real estate.
Kinesis pros:
- Mainly the shape. I think the kinesis is probably the most natural device to type on. The moonlander is comfy, but I think the kinesis is still more natural overall. The sculpted key-well is ideal, IMHO.
Both keyboards have eliminated my carpal tunnel symptoms, so I don't have any issues recommending either. If you're going to travel with a keyboard, definitely get the moonlander. But I think from a pure ergonomic standpoint - the kinesis wins.
If I ever switch jobs and have a keyboard stipend, I'll purchase the Advantage 360 and write a full review. But I'm very happy with my present position :)
I agree; I can't justify yet another keyboard. But there's the continuous itch to go ham and design my own split contour keyboard with QMK...
(For anyone reading this, you literally can't go wrong with either of these keyboards and they'll last 10+ years, so get one if you can.)
https://i.imgur.com/6H3vZoY.jpg
Thinking about getting on the Dactyl or similar train eventually, maybe in around a decade or so :)
e: also switches are hotswappable on the Moonlander, they are fixed (soldered)on the Ergodox iirc.
e2: They are hotswappable on the EZ :)
Still worth it though
[1] https://www.moergo.com
1. <http://xahlee.info/kbd/dactyl_keyboard.html>
2. <https://ohkeycaps.com/products/built-to-order-dactyl-manufor...>
Still totally worth it.
I want that but curved a bit and tented, without a change in layout.
Despite the gaming moniker, it's actually their best professional-grade keyboard, with better support for macros and backlighting.
As a bonus it doesn’t look like a science-lab on your desk, like a lot of other ergonomic keyboards do. Got to say this new Advantage 360 has a really nice look though.
Pre-oders on Drop.com usually stay open for a month or longer.
Happy to see they are moving away from their own software configuration. Not a fan of the software interface on the Freestyle Pro. More than once I have gotten myself into a loop where I am unsure which function mode is activated and how to switch back to what I want.
I am still likely to get this once it is out, but still not the "end game" keyboard of my dreams.
It seems like I should go stock some of the old version in case they decide to discontinue it and only offer non-Fn version later.
I consider this an upgrade. I personally think layer beats any keys I can't hit without taking my hands off home row.
That said my other main daily driver is an HHKB so I'm pretty used to switching layer for F keys.
On the whole the “home row” insistence seems like a bit of an obsession at times. It’s often nice, comfortable, and efficient, but I refuse to believe that anyone ever got hurt (RSI and all that) by moving their hands to the nav cluster every once in a while. (Or else all those piano players must be in some real trouble.)
I like the tenkeyless formfactor. Then I get a standard keyboard minus the numpad. And I can use a dedicated numpad if I need it.
That being said, I don't see a reason to upgrade. I've ordered replacement key wells so I can install my own switches, and since the Advantage is my desk keyboard I'm not worried about portability.
That may be the case, but the issue I have with this is that I need, often enough, to press random F keys while not actively using the keyboard. Like for example refresh HN while eating an apple (F5). It's a pain to have to press multiple keys.
e.g: LayerX + cmd + shift + 9 to rebuild a file. There are much worse offenders I am sure.
Optimistic: "with fancy tricks, you can make shortcuts easily accessible without the need for the full set of keyswitches".
e.g. on my keyboard I have shortcuts for "goto desktop left" when I press "cv", (and "goto desktop right" when I press "m,"). This is more complex than a standard keyboard's Ctrl+Shift+Right (or whatever, as varies per OS), but it feels so convenient.
I am intrigued by your key chords though. You can’t get key chords like that with a stock keyboard. Does it rely on the key-up event to distinguish between “cv” (one keychord” and “c” and “v” (separate)? Or does it rely on timeouts?
Timeouts. I believe it's similar to how some users use "jk" as more convenient than the escape key.
Sure, yes I do have a huge bashrc on my main workstation and yes I do add macros and other combos for repetitive tasks. But some fundamental things, like rebuild file, I really don’t want to be the weirdo unique guy who can’t operate someone else’s keyboard and vice versa. Missing F keys is just not a professional programmers keyboard.
“But the home row.” Right. And that’s sometimes a plus. But (1) moving your hands a bit is often not a big deal (unless you have to go back and forth a lot—then I think it’s a drag), and (2) even if things like using the (F key layer) arrow keys might be comfortable, it might not be comfortable to have to use yet another modifier key in order to use common functions like move-by-word (e.g. Ctrl+Left) or even move-and-mark-by-word (Ctrl+Shift+Left).
It’s not an objective win either way. So you definitely cannot just say that it “isn’t a big deal” as if having to use another layer has no cost associated with it.
Function keys are on the number row with a Fn modifier (Fn+1 for F1).
You get used to it in about half an hour. It becomes second nature in less than a week.
It makes the keyboard much more compact, which is definitely a plus. Less hand movement, less deskspace consumed, lighter.
People can swear up and down how intuitive and natural layers are, but I do not care. If there is ever a decision to be made between more and fewer keys, I always want to default to more.
The trade-off from fewer keys is reduced hand movement (& a smaller keyboard, cheaper to buy switches for, etc.), at the cost of additional complexity of use, & it not really being easy for anyone else to use your keyboard.
It seems reasonable either way to prefer one or the other. -- I suspect that most of the people enthusiastic about the smaller keyboard layouts are also into keyboard-driven workflows, and are developers who also frequently need to use the symbols accessed using layers.
I could imagine that some people never use the function keys. Or never use the numpad keys. To some people they might be completely useless... Which would make a smaller keyboard understandable.
Now, people who do need all those keys and yet still go for a smaller keyboard is harder for me to understand. :)
> The trade-off from fewer keys is reduced hand movement (& a smaller keyboard, cheaper to buy switches for, etc.), at the cost of additional complexity of use, & it not really being easy for anyone else to use your keyboard.
The trade-offs seem a bit one-sided. Hand movements are not a big deal unless you are going constantly back and forth between the main part and the nav cluster or the numpad. And all of these custom keyboards with their 60%, 67.5%, etc. sizes are already so… boutique and expensive that I don’t think that people are forfeiting a dozen or so keys in order to save some money.
Right, I don't think anyone goes "I need these keys, I should get a smaller keyboard".
But, no one is saying "I don't need those keys, I can use a smaller keyboard". e.g. 40% keyboards like the planck lack a number row, as well as lacking a number pad; of course they'll have to have access to type in numbers somehow.
> boutique and expensive that I don’t think that people are forfeiting a dozen or so keys in order to save some money.
Right, I don't think it's a persuasive/compelling point; but it is a benefit. Comparing the cost of getting switches for 110-keys vs for 48 keys, you can either afford nicer keys, or don't have to pay as much.
For instance, you could configure your number keys to have a "press and hold" generate the corresponding F key. The 'hold' doesn't have to be very long to still easily distinguish it from "normal" typing.
You could also make it a key combo very easily. Anyone who doesn't like key combos should take up a war against !@#$%^&*()+_?:<>{} and their friends.
Damn, I missed that part. The original Advantage has a set of small rubber F keys along the top which works surprisingly well given the amount that I use them (i.e. rarely).
Looking a bit more, I see that there are an extra set of keys on the "inside" of each half (to the right of G and left of H) - it's plausible that remapping these to key function keys would be enough for most use cases.
> Function Keys reside in new “Fn” Layer
> 10-Key resides in the traditional “Keypad” Layer
I wish kinsis would make qmk support a default option. Custom layouts and layers are just too useful for me to give up.
[0] https://github.com/kinx-project/kint
Some tried to get Kinesis to repair it but response ranged from not acknowledging the issue at all and playing oblivious, or blaming the computer, sometimes offering to replace a circuit board in the keyboard (this does not fix the problem).
There's also this 2016 web.archive.org snapshot where Kinesis is blaming the computer for missing the upstroke (what a joke to anyone who has the slightest clue of how USB or the input stack in your favorite kernel works): https://web.archive.org/web/20160221095425/http://www.kinesi...
The reality is that it's all in their firmware and looks like it took them nearly two decades to fix (if not more, I'm not sure exactly how far back the issue goes.. I think some people claim it was also happening with the old PS/2 model!) with the release of Advantage 2.
More anecdotes here, it was discussed when the Advantage 2 released: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12237836
Nice keyboard but it really left me with a "shitty company" taste. And yeah, shitty proprietary firmware.
This model looks really slick, and adds a number of nice innovations to the form factor. I'd reconsider if my current keyboard wasn't so bullet-proof.
At the end of the day the solution for me is to move in different ways and to build strength to combat fatigue. The trouble to adapt to Dvorak or curved, exceptionally ergonomic layouts isn't worth it for me, nor is the cost.
As an aside I've always wondered why the Katana60 [2] didn't have much interest as it seemed like a reasonable regular to full ergo in-between and IMHO more comfortable than something like a Planck. Though whilst I have tried the Plank I've not actually tried the Katana60 IRL. Looking forward to keyboard meetups again the post COVID future.
[1] https://twitter.com/kinesisergo/status/1470446358372896772
[2] http://xahlee.info/kbd/katana60_keyboard.html
[1] https://shop.keyboard.io/products/keyboardio-atreus