My heart goes out to the Chinese people. Our system is flawed, but it's one where even the most powerful of abusers can fall.
The next century of competition is looking incredibly interesting.
America made incredible leaps forward in WWII and the Cold War in the face of stiff competition. When our rivals disappeared, we only made incremental improvements in the decades that followed. We wasted our attention on distractions.
Now we're once again facing a challenging and ideologically opposed rival that will force us to focus more than ever before.
I would eagerly await your reply in our conversation if this is not what you wanted to communicate to me at a time of your convenience, after we both have time to cool down after a heated conversation.
As I told you, it's reached the point where I'm repeating myself. When users repeatedly post flamebait comments that predictably lead to flamewars, we rate limit their accounts (or ban them).
That's not the same thing as saying that "nothing worthy will come out of divisive subjects", because it's still possible to post thoughtfully and substantively about those. I'm not saying it's easy, but it's doable, and that's what we ask of users here. The site guidelines don't say to avoid such topics, they say:
"Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive."
Ha, instead of having the abusers bite dust, Chinese people had their social media accounts falling when they reposted or shared Peng's original statement. The image was OCR'd and hashed to hand out auto bans.
I read her Weibo post the same day it came out and I didn't get the impression that she was accusing Zhang Gaoli of sexual assault. I thought she was saying that they had an affair (if you can call it that. in the post she said one time while they were having sex, Zhang Gaoli asked his WIFE to guard the door...) on and off for years and now Zhang would no longer respond to her, basically abandoned her.
Interesting. I just read a translation in full and I did find it different from what I had expected from reading past coverage on this issue. [0] I'm unsure if this is an accurate translation though.
Right? This is not the first time I've read it on the English media that Peng Shuai was accusing Zhang Gaoli of sexual assault either. I seriously wonder what is going on here. Don't get me wrong. I do think Peng Shuai cannot speak freely and something sketchy is going on. But putting words in her mouth is a rather strange way of trying to help her.
On the other hand, if she didn't make that specific accusation, then what she just said made sense. She didn't retract anything. She stands behind what she said in that Weibo post, just not the "sexual assault" part interpreted by the western media.
An incredibly high powered state official love bombing a young woman who had explicitly said no to sex until she relents sounds like sexual abuse to me!
Sexual assualt is all kinds of sexual activity that occurs without consent. It doesn't matter if you eventually relented after you initially didn't consent, or if you consented to similar things beforehand.
In the case of Peng Shaui she did say that she felt forced into it when he took her to his house (带我去你家逼我和你发生关系). She said she initially didn't agree, and cried about it (我原本没有同意一直哭). After dinner he tried again, she said she refused again, and his response was to tell her that he hated her (我也并不愿意，你说恨我). Finally, scared and panicked (又怕又慌带), she agreed to have sex. This is at least emotional abuse. Perhaps eventually she "consented", but this should have stopped the first time she said no.
Regardless of whether you classify this as sexual assualt or "merely" sexual and/or emotional abuse, Zhang Gaoli was obviously using his position and power to pressure her into something she didn't want to do. The fact that they had a fling in the past and she still held complicated feelings for him at the encounter after his retirement doesn't change the fact that what he did was wrong. And many would argue that him even getting into the original relationship was wrong as well - an abuse of his privilege as a high-level government official, taking advantage of a much younger athlete who (as she admits) was lonely and desperate for someone to love her.
The part that Zhang's wife guarding the door while she's being sexually assaulted in the room simply means that Zhang's wife was actively participating in the assualt.
Huh? My native language is Chinese and based on her Weibo post, the sex was consensual. She never claimed that Zhang was raping her while his wife was guarding the door.
No. Stop pretending this is a language issue. There’s no language issue here. The coercion is evident in the original Chinese text. There is no interpretation or translation issue here.
"为何还要回来找我，带我去你家逼我和你发生关系？": Why did you come back to me and take me to your home to force me to have sex with you?
"那天下午我原本没有同意一直哭": That afternoon I didn't agree (to have sex with you) and I kept crying.
"晚饭后我也并不愿意": I still did not agree (to have sex with you) after dinner.
Simple summary of what happened: They played tennis in the morning, and then he took her to his home (a highly guarded residency of the top CCP official). Because of the nature of the physical location, she actually can't leave without his assistance. She refused to have sex with him during the afternoon and the evening (but she can't leave by just walking out or call a taxi). Eventually they had sex. Also, his wife was at home and helped him to make the sex happen.
"那天下午我原本没有同意一直哭": In that afternoon, initially I didn't agree to have sex with you and I kept crying. "原本" means "initially". It even insinuates that she agreed eventually. Of course your rebuttal will be "yeah she agreed eventually because she had no choice".
You aren't debating about language now. Someone that says no and cries, can't leave, is pressured by one of the most powerful guys in China... and eventually consents...That's sexual abuse right there. You're welcome to use a different name if you like, but it's abuse.
"Peng accused the former vice premier Zhang Gaoli of having coerced her into sex"
She then seems to have vanished and then various clumsily handled "sightings" were obviously orchestrated. Then we have this "retraction" nonsense. It's all a bit clumsy. There is absolutely no point in even trying to cover up a cover up like this. I can only conclude it is to provide some form of coverage for domestic use.
Whatever the relative merits of Peng's accusation, her subsequent treatment is not the act of a nation governed even vaguely equitably. There is no attempt to demonstrate some form of judicial process, whereby an accusation is investigated in some way. The accuser simply disappeared and then surfaces periodically and I suspect that it is only the fact that she is an important sports person that this ridiculous process is being carried out.
Depending on how charitable you are feeling, the handling of Peng's "story" by the local authorities is either breathtakingly naive or callously dismissive.
Well, no other country has stood up to China on these abuses, so obviously they cover up their actions well enough to maintain their international standing.
I think their point is that governments are not interested in holding China accountable. What the WTA did was admirable in standing up for their player but they are only the governing body of a sport, not the government of any country.
When a country doesn't seem to care about it's image, ie "callously dismissive" (my words) then we might conclude that it might think itself invulnerable. Invulnerability is a funny old thing.
The canonical quote must be "Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!"
> There is absolutely no point in even trying to cover up a cover up like this
It gives enough deniability for companies and countries that do business with China and don’t actually care about how China treats its citizens, but can’t just say they don’t care, to go about business as normal.
I think "the west" is just as desperate for ways they can put this issue behind them and try to carry on with making money with China, which is what these responses are designed for.
China's clumsy manufactured responses obviously would have been good enough for the west in the past when "the deciders" were always in charge.
The problem is now with social media the issue has got away from the ruling class somewhat so it's taking some time to reign in these various celebrities and athletes and other influencers who have gone off-script and are perpetuating the problem for them (contrast this with the recent polished and professional responses from the NBA and their comfy relationship with genocide and slavery, with the complicity of the corporate media to sweep that little problem under the carpet -- no doubt the WTA are green with envy that their response has not been so good, it may not be a coincidence that Yao Ming has shown up here).
I mean the ruling class does not care about people over money. Not here, and not in China. Compare it to the many far more problematic things that happen everywhere, from Afghanistan to Assange to Xinjiang to Qatar. Certainly not one woman's sexual assault. Tara Reade got essentially the same treatment.
I have no doubt western corporations and governments and news/propaganda companies will continue to work together with the CCP with the usual back scratching and favors changing hands until the messaging is right and we can put this whole thing behind us.
Democracy, oligarchy, dictatorship, it’s all more or less the same for a corporation. As long as profits are higher than costs, it’s all the same for them.
Does anyone believe one would disappear from public appearances for 5-6 weeks due to ostensibly her 'resting at home', somehow oblivious to the fact that literally the entire world media is talking about your disappearance.
This would be in a context of you having made a matter-of-fact accusation of sexual abuse of one of the 10 most powerful people in the country, that you recant only 5 weeks later as if it was some kind of metaphor that was misinterpreted.
You'd think in such a situation, you'd at least be prone to say, at most within a few days, to call a few media outlets to indeed show the world that you haven't been kidnapped but are instead just chilling at home. Not only every media outlet around the world was talking about this for weeks, but also Amnesty International, the Olympic Committee, the International Tennis Federation, the European Union, the president of the United States, the nr 1 world tennis player etc etc, are all commenting on your disappearance by the state...
And don't forget the part where she called Weibo and other Chinese social media companies to remove posts mention the affair and to block users from searching her name or Tennis. Also don't forget the part where she called the central television governing agency to block CNN signal when her affair was mentioned.
This is a manifestation of some internecine conflict among the top CN officials, calculated to deliver a calculated embarrassment. It's poor propaganda, but what you see is only the least important part of what's happening. That is, it's not meant as propaganda.
> Does anyone believe one would disappear from public appearances for 5-6 weeks due to ostensibly her 'resting at home'
That's an interesting way to solve the problem with China's 996 work culture: "I am tired, I need a vacation, I think I should speak against the government to get some rest then."
There's a lot written in the Weibo post that is not about the coersion. The coersion does not seem to be the main point of the quite long post? Is that accurate? The discussion here seems very focused on a small part of the post.
Example outtake from the translation: "You played with me, and dumped me when you are done with me."
Maybe she just didn't see herself as a victim? Consent, language and culture are complicated. People in the US can describe a coercive experience like that without automatically labeling it as rape or sexual-assault.
Of course given the radio silence, his political power, and being 25 to his 65 at the time... that seems less likely.
So I’m not sure we can trust any retraction made after the original disappears for several weeks in a country with a track record of kidnapping and torturing people who say anything negative about the country.
It seems entirely likely, if not probable, that any retraction of her early statements is coerced.
Wait, wait, wait... wasn't "she" that claimed initially that her profile had been hacked?!
Let me get this story straight: So someone hacked her account to write Peng Shuai + Zhang Gaoli "50 Shades of Gray" fan fiction? Was she hacked, or was she misunderstood? Make up your mind, China!
According to The Guardian, "She confirmed that the Chinese version of the email to Simon was written by her, but said the one published by CGTN [...] was a translation because her level of English was not sufficient.". Then how she conducted the interview with IOC if her English is "bad"?
53 comments
[ 2.7 ms ] story [ 117 ms ] threadThe next century of competition is looking incredibly interesting.
America made incredible leaps forward in WWII and the Cold War in the face of stiff competition. When our rivals disappeared, we only made incremental improvements in the decades that followed. We wasted our attention on distractions.
Now we're once again facing a challenging and ideologically opposed rival that will force us to focus more than ever before.
Let's hope that freedom and democracy endure.
I would eagerly await your reply in our conversation if this is not what you wanted to communicate to me at a time of your convenience, after we both have time to cool down after a heated conversation.
That's not the same thing as saying that "nothing worthy will come out of divisive subjects", because it's still possible to post thoughtfully and substantively about those. I'm not saying it's easy, but it's doable, and that's what we ask of users here. The site guidelines don't say to avoid such topics, they say:
"Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive."
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
The ability to speak truth is when you don't allow yourself to be shouted down.
Are there any Chinese speakers who can chime in?
[0]: https://www.reddit.com/r/tennis/comments/qmn69a/full_transla...
On the other hand, if she didn't make that specific accusation, then what she just said made sense. She didn't retract anything. She stands behind what she said in that Weibo post, just not the "sexual assault" part interpreted by the western media.
An incredibly high powered state official love bombing a young woman who had explicitly said no to sex until she relents sounds like sexual abuse to me!
In the case of Peng Shaui she did say that she felt forced into it when he took her to his house (带我去你家逼我和你发生关系). She said she initially didn't agree, and cried about it (我原本没有同意一直哭). After dinner he tried again, she said she refused again, and his response was to tell her that he hated her (我也并不愿意，你说恨我). Finally, scared and panicked (又怕又慌带), she agreed to have sex. This is at least emotional abuse. Perhaps eventually she "consented", but this should have stopped the first time she said no.
Regardless of whether you classify this as sexual assualt or "merely" sexual and/or emotional abuse, Zhang Gaoli was obviously using his position and power to pressure her into something she didn't want to do. The fact that they had a fling in the past and she still held complicated feelings for him at the encounter after his retirement doesn't change the fact that what he did was wrong. And many would argue that him even getting into the original relationship was wrong as well - an abuse of his privilege as a high-level government official, taking advantage of a much younger athlete who (as she admits) was lonely and desperate for someone to love her.
"为何还要回来找我，带我去你家逼我和你发生关系？": Why did you come back to me and take me to your home to force me to have sex with you?
"那天下午我原本没有同意一直哭": That afternoon I didn't agree (to have sex with you) and I kept crying.
"晚饭后我也并不愿意": I still did not agree (to have sex with you) after dinner.
Simple summary of what happened: They played tennis in the morning, and then he took her to his home (a highly guarded residency of the top CCP official). Because of the nature of the physical location, she actually can't leave without his assistance. She refused to have sex with him during the afternoon and the evening (but she can't leave by just walking out or call a taxi). Eventually they had sex. Also, his wife was at home and helped him to make the sex happen.
Do you believe she had a choice?
She then seems to have vanished and then various clumsily handled "sightings" were obviously orchestrated. Then we have this "retraction" nonsense. It's all a bit clumsy. There is absolutely no point in even trying to cover up a cover up like this. I can only conclude it is to provide some form of coverage for domestic use.
Whatever the relative merits of Peng's accusation, her subsequent treatment is not the act of a nation governed even vaguely equitably. There is no attempt to demonstrate some form of judicial process, whereby an accusation is investigated in some way. The accuser simply disappeared and then surfaces periodically and I suspect that it is only the fact that she is an important sports person that this ridiculous process is being carried out.
Depending on how charitable you are feeling, the handling of Peng's "story" by the local authorities is either breathtakingly naive or callously dismissive.
(Edit: spelling)
The canonical quote must be "Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!"
It gives enough deniability for companies and countries that do business with China and don’t actually care about how China treats its citizens, but can’t just say they don’t care, to go about business as normal.
China's clumsy manufactured responses obviously would have been good enough for the west in the past when "the deciders" were always in charge.
The problem is now with social media the issue has got away from the ruling class somewhat so it's taking some time to reign in these various celebrities and athletes and other influencers who have gone off-script and are perpetuating the problem for them (contrast this with the recent polished and professional responses from the NBA and their comfy relationship with genocide and slavery, with the complicity of the corporate media to sweep that little problem under the carpet -- no doubt the WTA are green with envy that their response has not been so good, it may not be a coincidence that Yao Ming has shown up here).
I mean the ruling class does not care about people over money. Not here, and not in China. Compare it to the many far more problematic things that happen everywhere, from Afghanistan to Assange to Xinjiang to Qatar. Certainly not one woman's sexual assault. Tara Reade got essentially the same treatment.
I have no doubt western corporations and governments and news/propaganda companies will continue to work together with the CCP with the usual back scratching and favors changing hands until the messaging is right and we can put this whole thing behind us.
This would be in a context of you having made a matter-of-fact accusation of sexual abuse of one of the 10 most powerful people in the country, that you recant only 5 weeks later as if it was some kind of metaphor that was misinterpreted.
You'd think in such a situation, you'd at least be prone to say, at most within a few days, to call a few media outlets to indeed show the world that you haven't been kidnapped but are instead just chilling at home. Not only every media outlet around the world was talking about this for weeks, but also Amnesty International, the Olympic Committee, the International Tennis Federation, the European Union, the president of the United States, the nr 1 world tennis player etc etc, are all commenting on your disappearance by the state...
Quite a weak attempt at propaganda.
Home arrest, more likely...
That's an interesting way to solve the problem with China's 996 work culture: "I am tired, I need a vacation, I think I should speak against the government to get some rest then."
More than a retraction, this is chillingly Orwellian forgetting of recent history (undoubtedly forced)
Example outtake from the translation: "You played with me, and dumped me when you are done with me."
Source: https://old.reddit.com/r/tennis/comments/qmn69a/full_transla...
"为何还要回来找我，带我去你家逼我和你发生关系？" was translated to "why did you come back for me, and brought me to your home to have sex?"
The translator literally dropped the word "逼我" (force me). So this translation defenitely cannot be trusted.
Of course given the radio silence, his political power, and being 25 to his 65 at the time... that seems less likely.
It seems entirely likely, if not probable, that any retraction of her early statements is coerced.
Let me get this story straight: So someone hacked her account to write Peng Shuai + Zhang Gaoli "50 Shades of Gray" fan fiction? Was she hacked, or was she misunderstood? Make up your mind, China!
According to The Guardian, "She confirmed that the Chinese version of the email to Simon was written by her, but said the one published by CGTN [...] was a translation because her level of English was not sufficient.". Then how she conducted the interview with IOC if her English is "bad"?
They tried to make it look like the reporter just happened to bump into her, but this is clearly set up by her "handlers."